OK, so Im playing in a campaign with a GM who likes really knuckling down on the rules - he tends to call out anything the players do as too powerful, and then throw optimised monsters at us that we can just barely handle. He's the type of guy who will use the random monster encounter tables and sucks to be us if it throws something too powerful at us. I've discussed it with him (that sometimes fighting a fight that we can handle without a tonne of difficulty can be fun, not every fight needs to be a boss fight) but at the same time, I've come to the realization that its how he likes to play, so I should probably get used to it.
So, I'm planning out my next charactor after my current halfishly optimized Magus dies. With him gone we'll have a group around level 6 consisting of a monk who likes to run ahead, an extremely defensive paladin who has no spells due to archtype, a summoner and her brutish playing the face of the party with her axe wielding summon, and a healing oriented oracle.
We have no central castor, nor any trapfinders short of letting our monk trigger everything.
I'm leaning towards either a rogue, or a Kitsune bard with one of the rogue like archtypes. I'll let someone else take on the job of item identification and do the scout thing with trapfinding, and hopefully use the bards skills to get out of trouble and be an alternate face of the party as well.
Any thoughts? Suggestions for hard to kill characters?
Suggestions for hard to kill characters?
Don't be a Rogue.
Actually, if you do want to be a Rogue, consider Bard - with such a large group, a buffing Bard could be quite potent. Unfortunately though, Bards are only slightly less fragile than Rogues. They can stay out of harm's way though, especially when armed with a bow.
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Consider a dervish dance bladebound kensai with a two level dip into rogue (evasion + trap spotting).
AC should be comparable to the paladin's with long duration buffs up and all saves should be good.
[sarcasm]I'm sure the GM described would be just fine with that.[/sarcasm]
Make an under-optimized character. If this GM is throwing character into the meat grinder after it's been discussed with him, AND complains that the players are OP when they manage to succeed despite him, then maybe what needs to happen is to die repeatedly. If he kills you all the time, then maybe he will learn to not throw overpowered encounters at you.Or you know, quit his game and find a good GM to play with.
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If this GM is throwing character into the meat grinder after it's been discussed with him, AND complains that the players are OP when they manage to succeed despite him, .....
...Or you know, quit his game and find a good GM to play with.
Instead of playing an under powered character, I would build something that actually was over powered. I would make sure I was the very last character to fall to the meat grinder...
...until everybody else got fed up with the constant characters deaths and moved on.
If you don't care about disabling the traps, take a 2 level dip in MOMS instead of rogue and grab Crane Wing. A character that is truly difficult to kill.
There is a build I used to fill a few holes in the group. It was one of the builds I had the most fun cumming up with and playing. Even though its not super optimized I was proud of it.
Don't have the time to drop the full build but here is the short version.
Angle-blooded Aasimar. Archaeologist Bard with 4 lvls dragon disciple.
I used a longspear with flagbearer feat and banner of the ancient kings. This allows you to provide some group buffing even though your performance only works on yourself and without having to waste a turn casting a spell.
You get rogue talents and there is a couple that are great for staying alive. There is one that gives you temp hp if you drop under 0. Forgot its name. There is also an advanced talent to 5-foot out of the way of an attack that would drop you.
DD is fro the HP boost, Str boost, go a fire type dragon so you will have resist all (other then sonic.) when combined with racial resistances. For your DD feat take toughness.
For stats its high str/con and just enough cha to cast. Don't use any DC spells.
So its a trappfinder that has a fair reach melee ability, Some group buffing, some utility spells and can heal in a pinch. I really love this build.
if its a lvl 6+ build just make a wizard they are the most versatile in the game and you wil be controlling the world. NOT your GM! :-)
if you need optemized consider playing some higher tier charachter certainly not a rogue.
just know that anny monster you face a magus is gonna have the answer blackblade hexcrafter might be what you need!
if he trows you a bos mob you just whack it down with intensefied shocking grasp! otherwise you have a nice list of spells. if you start out at lvl 6 dont forget a belt of STR and a headband of INT!
should get you at 20 STR and 20 INT also 3-4 pearls of power LVL1 are pritty cheap this way you can shocking grasp all day long!
getting the healing hex for healing!
To be clear, durable in this case doesn't mean high hit points. I need a character who can avoid traps and get out of sticky situations rather than just muscle through them, which is why I'm considering rogue or a roguish character. Coming up with better ways to control the flow of battle also seems like it'd help, which is why I'm considering bard.
To be honest, I'm leaning towards Archaeologist or sandman bards - but both seem to give up their party buffs in order to avoid traps. I'm trying to figure out what way to go, or if there's another way - such as a rogue archetype that'd help, or perhaps some blend of rogue multiclassing that'd be fairly optimised to pull it off.
I say make the best of it and enjoy the fun. Build the biggest most overpowered character you can get away with and when %^%^% hits the fan have a blast! Really play to your DM's strengths and play style.
Heck,purposefully see what you guys can stand before going down!
Try and trigger two encounters at once and see if you can live through it!
Talk to the other players and get them on board.
DMing is hard and frankly few want to do it. If you can have fun with your DM try and do so.
A good attitude goes a long way to smoothing over any issues.Besides you just might have fun!
arch bard is kind of popular :-)
The archeologist bard is a good choice. The key to making it work is having a high DEX and a moderate CHA. This means the saving throws on your spells are pretty poor so avoid spells that are cast on enemies and concentrate on spells cast on yourself. Heroism is probably your best 2nd level spell and added to archeologist luck is incredible. Play a half elf to get more rounds of performance and proficiency with scimitar. Take the feat dervish dance and leave your STR at only 13 so you can pick up power attack. Take weapon finesse at 1st, dervish dance at 3rd, and lingering performance at 5th.
If you go kitsune you can take the fox form feat and spend most of your time as a fox. I'm not sure there's any reason you couldn't use some performance skills while transformed.
If you go kitsune you can take the fox form feat and spend most of your time as a fox. I'm not sure there's any reason you couldn't use some performance skills while transformed.
That's a good one, actually. The rhythmic yips and the occasional howl could make for a good performance vehicle.
To clarify: So far no one has died. I'm biased in this case: our GM likes to embrace RNG - throwing difficult random monster encounters at us more often than not to the point where just travelling from town to town is an exercise in surviving monsters, monsoons and dysentery. My GMing style is more the opposite of this: to avoid random, meaningless death somewhat. Everyone has to have a line drawn in the sand on the subject, I just prefer mine to be a lot closer to things not being difficult unless there's a reason for it. Either way, I'm not anywhere near ready to walk away from the group over such issues and will do my best to enjoy it.
Either way, I think the best way to do this is to pick up a character that can fill in some party weaknesses - mainly trapsense and knowledge checks seem to be helpful at this point. I'll let the monk be our primary damage dealer along with the summoner and her summon.
I'm not sure fox form would be all that great to be honest - aside from an increase in my base speed and gaining scent when I do it, carrying gear would be a problem, and being a fox in battle might be kinda bad compared to standing in the back with a short bow. I don't think it'd actually get used in practice.
To clarify, I don't care to go completely min/maxed, but being relatively effective is kind of important to me.
Literally make Batman.
1) You don't need a "face" as you already have three charisma based characters, one of whom explicitly has that role.
2) You want a highly durable character. That can be done any number of different ways, but playing a rogue is not a good start!
3) You want to handle traps.
4) Your party already has arcane and divine spells, and you don't seem interested in playing a full caster.
5) You're starting at 6th level, high enough that characters relying on a few feats already have what they need to be effective.
I suggest a ranger, with either the the Urban Ranger or Trapper archetype. You get trapfinding, evasion, d10 hit points, full BAB, high fortitude and reflex saves plus WIS to boost your will save, lots of skills, and bonus combat feats.
I there are lots of excellent builds, like a Hobgoblin Dervish Dancer, Flying-Charge Hippogriff Rider, Thunder and Fang TWF, or the classic Archer. And, because you have a strong framework, you're never overspecialized. (the melee builds are good with bows, the archer can melee, the mounted combatant is good on foot, etc.)
1) You don't need a "face" as you already have three charisma based characters, one of whom explicitly has that role.
2) You want a highly durable character. That can be done any number of different ways, but playing a rogue is not a good start!
3) You want to handle traps.
4) Your party already has arcane and divine spells, and you don't seem interested in playing a full caster.
5) You're starting at 6th level, high enough that characters relying on a few feats already have what they need to be effective.I suggest a ranger, with either the the Urban Ranger or Trapper archetype. You get trapfinding, evasion, d10 hit points, full BAB, high fortitude and reflex saves plus WIS to boost your will save, lots of skills, and bonus combat feats.
I there are lots of excellent builds, like a Hobgoblin Dervish Dancer, Flying-Charge Hippogriff Rider, Thunder and Fang TWF, or the classic Archer. And, because you have a strong framework, you're never overspecialized. (the melee builds are good with bows, the archer can melee, the mounted combatant is good on foot, etc.)
My hero. Why didn't I think of that?
Dwarven barb (invulnerable rager) / cleric (crusader with the growth sub domain).
Again, see my clarification. The only fix we seem to need to fix this longterm is to play and let him see for himself: He's used to playing with Min/maxers and trolls so of course there will be a learning period as he figures out how best to run a game with a group that isn't actively trying to do either. It's not a one sided story: he needs to adapt to us, and we need to adapt to him. If my complaints sound fermiliar, maybe you should have a close look at my reaction to it rather than trying to just blame the other guy.
Anyways, I'm looking at Ranger as part of the equation: Trapper looks like a good combo for exactly what I'm looking for. Any other suggestions? Perhaps some good Ranger options?
*Takes his hat off to Trayce*
No expert on rangers so the only other advice I can give is unless you NEED a front man for the group,Go ranged and be mobile. Hard to kill what you can't get to.
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Meaning no disrespect to your friend, Trayce, not everybody who steps up to the GM table is ready for the job. At least consider the possibility of offering to alternate GMs, either weekly or between each adventure. Back when he was just a player, he had no reason to study a GM's habits: he may improve more quickly if he has a regular example that's more in line with the group's tastes.
I want to apologize if my initial post sounded rude, but bad GMing is a personal pet peeve of mine and I have a very low tolerance for it. I have gamed with too many GMs who take an adversarial approach to players, and in two situations have ruined gaming for friends who are now former gamers. When there is one bad GM, for the players who have to deal with him or her, that is the face of the entire hobby.
That said, it doesn't seem to be the case here. It sounds like there is simply an adjustment that needs to be made, and Lincoln Hills is giving some good advice on how to do it.
Half-Orc alchemist with lingering spirit and healing touch discoveries and the ferocious resolve feat. Now you are nigh unkillable. You're welcome.
wizard or sorceror or witch (depending on game, orcish CON-based witchdoctor could work)
for sorceror, consider tattooed sorceror, and/or arcane bloodline, and pick up lots of spells known (favored class, feat, vest/ring/pages)
or
bard, and i would suggest magician for the off-bard-list (i.e. wiz/sorc/witch) for a few additional spells,
you don't have a full arcane caster so either being one or trying to achieve similar effect is good idea,
plus for bard is also being secondary healer for group, although you already have defensive focused paladin.
you didn't say what weapons everybody is built around using primarily, but if you go bard i would say go for bows,
picking up PBS/rapid fire is an easy enough boost to effectiveness, you don't even need to worry about the rest (bow feats)
as you have plenty of other things to be doing with your other abilities.
doesn't sound like you need another melee combatant, or even full BAB warrior type at all.
f@~# trapfinding, detect magic/arcane sight works nearly as well for all the things normal perception can't find.
if the monk is into UAS, tell them to use a longspear for threatening more AoOs if they aren't already.
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I'm glad you like my ranger suggestion:) To explore that concept a bit, here are some of the options available.
For example, if I know I want to play a dwarf for thematic reasons, I'll ask myself what classes dwarves are mechanically good at. After I narrow down the list of classes to ones that "work" I pick one I will enjoy. If I settle on Druid, I might get excited about the idea of having a pet, and then look at the list of animal companions to see what's good, narrow down my choices to the animals that don't suck, then pick the one that gives me a good character picture.
Looking over these lists, what appeals to you? Or, if lots of things appeal, copy the list, and just delete the stuff you don't like.
These races all make excellent rangers:
- Dwarf
- Half Elf
- Half Orc
- Human
- Aasimar
- Hobgoblin
- Oread
- Tiefling
These archetypes get you trapfinding:
- Trapper - Give up spells, but get to both find and set traps. Setting traps is weaker than the spells you give up, but not so much weaker that it makes the character gimpy.
- Urban Ranger - You switch from woodland to urban abilities. Trapfinding instead of Endurance; Disable Device instead of Handle Animal; Knowledge(local) instead of Knowledge(nature); move through crowds instead of underbrush.
These archetypes are solid, and are compatible with Trapper:
- Hippogriff Rider - You get a flying mount! Enough said.
- Infiltrator - Instead of favored terrains, you get to imitate a few characteristics of your favored enemies. This can gain you things like darkvision, water breathing, or energy resistance.
These fighting styles are good, and not mutually exclusive:
- Big two-handed weapon - Easy to build, easy to play, and high damage. Since it only needs one feat to be good, it can be done along side most other styles.
- Archery - It keeps you out of reach of many enemies, and deals loads of damage. The downside is that you're not being a blocker for your weaker party members if you're standing back to shoot all the time.
- Scimitar - There's a great trick to wield a scimitar in one hand, dealing almost as much damage as with a two-handed weapon, but using your dexterity instead of strength. Your other hand stays empty and can be used for Crane Wing, and awesome defensive technique.
- Mounted Combat - This takes up a total of three feats, which is not too many to be combined with other styles. You'll only want to pursue it if you choose an Animal Companion that can be ridden. The advantages are mobility (mounts go fast!) and charging. You can deal double damage when you charge, or triple if you use a lance.
- Two-Weapon Fighting - Less damage per hit, but attack more times. This method is a little weaker when you have to move up to your enemy, a little stronger when you get to stand still and fight.
- Weapon & Shield - A special case of two-weapon fighting, where you use your shield to bash your enemies. It will deal slightly less damage than two "stabby" weapons, but adds significantly to armor class.
- Thunder & Fang - Another special case of two-weapon fighting. It takes a couple extra feats to master, but increases both damage and defense.
My wife is playing a fighter (archer archtype)/ wizard to get arc archer
however she has the trait that allows looking for traps so she is able to dish out good damage at range, handle non-magical traps, and a dip into the arcane. we have found that fighter archers blow away ranger archers all the time. in the archery topic that is.
If really need to have a durable, there are five types.
Tank - Classic shield tank, able to deal damages to draw attentions away from the team while able to take hits. Fighters with shield and sword is the usual. Have a scimitar and critical tree would make you a bit different then the usual. You can't get hurt when you blocked it.
Meat shield - barbarian normally is the best for it, you can take not only hits, but damage as well, on top of that, you are able to deal damage with one big hits. You would like to kill your enemies before they kill you, reach weapons with the most damage goes best. It doesn't hurts when it doesn't hurt enough.
Tactical reach - well use of feat, reach rules and AoOs will help your stop enemy from attacking you. It only works with melee enemies that have no reach. Work best for class that has feats and good BAB along with strength needs. What can't reach you, can't hurt you. Fighter would be the best choice.
Damage reduction - ankle bitters hates this type the most because if you max out your DR, they can't damage you with their traps and weak attacks doesn't matter how many of them hitting you with they short bow. Best way to go about it would be fighter based Stalwart Defender with 3 level of fighters with adamantine full plate. You will get DR8/- and range attacks won't be much of a problem to you anymore. Except magic of course.
Damage control - If you choose a class that can heal yourself, you will able take hits and damage more than usual. Paladin would be the best for this type. Can't hurt me when I will just heal back up. However, healing is not so important. Ability to not take damage beats the ability to heal, except for abilities score and negative level restoration, but that's a different story.
What I said above didn't mention mount because you can mount while still take up on of those type above.
[rant]Gotta love the trolls on here who don't listen to the OP. They are NOT asking for your advice on their GM. They are not asking you whether or not the GM is doing things badly, nor are they asking if they should alternate GM's, etc. Just try to stay to the topic at hand and the question posed by the OP for Pete's sake.[/end rant]
Okay now on to advice like you asked for OP:
I like the ranger idea since it sounds like a lot of what you are looking for in regards to how you want to build a survivable character. This is a PC who can find traps and be a bit more optimized in case the random encounters turn against you and your party.
Another character I'd look into is an Alchemist or someone with an alchemist dip, disable device and stealth are class skills. Now if you want to get trap finding I'd also look at the Crypt Breaker who gets that, could be a cool and unique character to have in the group.
Final piece of advice I'd like to offer is this - Don't ever be afraid to run away from those OP encounters. Live to fight another day, there is the WITHDRAW action that you can take when things get too crazy for you guys.
There is NOTHING in the rules that states you have to stand and fight an ancient red dracolich when you are level 2. Get the hell out of there and go back later when you can handle it. Too many times people forget about being able to run away because it "isn't heroic," but I'm not one of them. I know when I bite off more than I can chew and my companions do as well. It's part of good tactics to do so. It also lets the GM know that s/he overdid it when you guys run off and don't fight his creatures.
Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can't withdraw from combat if you're blinded. You can't take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.
If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.
You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don't have a listed speed.
Note that despite the name of this action, you don't actually have to leave combat entirely.
Restricted Withdraw: If you are limited to taking only a standard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action. In this case, you may move up to your speed.
Go full basket weaver. You go on and on about your character's innkeeper parents and his sweetheart back home and roleplay out all the campfire scenes, while your character sheet says: Fighter 5/Commoner 1, Feats: Toughness, Skill Focus. Attacks: longsword +10, 1d8+4 damage.
Then get upset when your character dies -and you do it again. And get the rest of the group in on it.
My barbarian is typically the only real meat shield and as such he needs lots of ways to bypass or at least minimalizedamage.
I have:
-cloak of displacement lesser, to give me a 20% miss chance.
-light fortification, which will go up to the higher ones as I level hire, to decrease sneak attack, but mostly critical hits.
-stoneskin is a great spell to have in a potion form, or the belt of stoneskin in ultimate equipemit, absorbs first 100 points within 24 hrs, and gives a good DR that won't stack with your normal DR, but will overlap it, if it is the higher one for the situation (they don't use adamantine weapons).
-A ring of regeneration willl give back 1 HP per round, but other than that, you'll have to rely on magic potions or party members to buff you with other stuff.
All the above are not directly from a barbarian. However...
-beast totem: gives a natural armor bonus that will stack with a necklace of natural armor.
-faster movement: getting into better position to take less hits, and to also get away incase of trouble.
- come and get me rage power: a great damage minimizer. When the enemy tries to take attacks on you, they provoke AoO on you and you can attack them FIRST, so they don't even get their attack off, and you can kill them faster. One amazing reason to have a higher dex.
-spell sunder- many people use this for AoE spells or effects, or even the occasional buff on an enemy. However, if your under some control or in a black tentacle, or some other debilitating spell on you, try and attack yourself to remove the effect. The confusion effect has as an option for you to attack yourself, so it is possible to do so. And, since it's a sunder manuever, you won't be dealing yourself damage.
-extremely high saves.
-massive DR
All of this make for a very durable character. The displacement from the cloak, stoneskin, False life, and fortification all are layers of varying protection, but that since they overlap tend to all work in unison to mitigate damage. And they are all options to put on for any character, not just the meat shield damage taker.
From an archer, or natural attack build doing over 6 attacks, at least one will be negated, and all will have some damage removed. As well as have it not only have to go through temporary hit points, after DR, but also then absorbed, before it actually touches my real HP. and on top of that barbarians get a HP boost from a con boost.
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Reincarnated Druid.
Hit 5th level, and you just keep coming back.
So, random 20th level Bartender kills you for no reason?
Wait, and you get reincarnated.
Until the barbarian tracks you down and kills you a second time.
There is a period of time where the reincarnated druid is vulnerable.
You know that at 3rd level druids become unable to be tracked, right?
From a pure mechanics stand point, I would go sword and board paladin.
High charisma for lots of lay on hands as a swift action.
High Charisma also gives you a boost on all saves.
Fey foundling for a huge boost to self healing.
Heavy Armor for a Good AC.
You end up with a character that is tough, and can self heal a lot of damage while removing conditions.