Goldenfrog's page

Triple check character math. Pathfinder is a game that is VERY easy to make a mistake that can be game breaking.

My best advice is to NEVER try and get around pc choices. By and large you can't make a unhittable character without being seriously short in other areas. This is why doing tons of damage AND being unhittable sets off so many alarm bells.Check the math!!

If the mobs wail away at the fighter and can't hit him..have them ignore him,knock him into pits or whatever is handy.

I just think bypassing player strong points in order to "Get Them" should be discouraged.

Now since it's bothering other players IF the math turns out to be right"Don't think it will based on what I have seen in games" then you can simply ask the player to change some things about the character.

Before I was that drastic however I would simply make sure the math is right and add fun encounters for the other guys. Might be its only a issue because you have been running more encounters that stress that players specialty instead of the others?

silvermage wrote:

Edit: YES your summary was spot-on, all except for the negative level bit. We leveled up after she died, so everyone else went to level 6, and when we brought her back, he told her that she had just enough XP to be level 5. Just so she didn't have to change anything on her character sheet and go back down to level 4, which is probably what he would have preferred, but he was "being lenient."

He just responded to me suggesting that I leave his RotRl game.
"I think the problem comes from me just being a loose gm, i pretty often change prices on the fly, cause i dont think the CRB prices are high enough for some things. Also, i dont feel like my choices as GM are being respected. I always have to fight with you when you rules laywer me, when pathfinder isnt a competitive game. You never do that to any other gm, im sure. And it makes me really sad, cause i wanted pathfinder to be our thing, that we can take casually, but you clearly take it more seriously than that. And you clearly prefer other games. So honestly, i cant stop you from leaving my campaigns, even if i want you to stay."

To which I responded:
"Well I fight you on things because you change them to suit yourself and don't realize the impact it will have on the entire adventure...
For example, yes we spent 15,000gp. That is redic and should have bought back the negative level. It should have been a Raise Dead with two Restorations. You could at least make up for it by not forcing her character to become weaker; also, Paizo's rules on losing a level are not "you literally lose an entire level." It's supposed to be able to be bought back. And using your price guide of DOUBLE THE PRICE, which btw will make it really impossible for anyone else to ever get brought back now and will ruin your story continuity because everyone will probably die at some point...ahem. Your double the price. Which is really harsh. Would be raise dead: 10,000. Restorations: 2,000 each. Total: 14,000. But then she gains back all levels lost

...

If he wants to change the price for anything from day to day or hour by hour that's fine. He could back that up with 10,000 in game reasons or use real life examples ect.. or he could just save time and say"Cause I said so".

After all there really are places in the world today that don't have modern fixed pricing and will change the price of items you want to buy based on how you dress or what your accent is.You don't get to know WHY they have that price just if you are going to pay it.

He could instead just say"Those type spells don't exist and there is no way to come back from the dead".

He is right.He can't be wrong...unless he is trying to play by the rules as written(I don't know of any DM that does that).It doesn't sound like he is and THAT is what the issue is here.

It will not help you in the least to keep looking in the book and pointing out rule differences,He doesn't care.

I think that really bothers you and is at the heart of the issue.

I also realize that he is a new DM and so isn't doing things the way many of us old timers would.We did things his way in the past and it lead to issues! Hence now we list all rule changes up front and talk about them before starting the game ect..

I don't think he is going to change his DMing overnight so without laying blame at anyone's feet my advice is that you think about it and do one of two things.

Realize that his game isn't going to change and things will bother you but you are still having fun and can live with it and not drag your issue with his game out.

OR

Realize that his game isn't for you and with as much tact and grace as you possess,bow out of his games while still being as supportive as you can be.

Silvermage,

DMing is a lot harder than it looks at least while you are learning. Like anything it takes time to not only master all the rules but feel comfortable with yourself and the game to sometimes just be wrong.

The DM will NEVER stop making mistakes. There is just far to many rules and little things to keep track of to remember it all 100% of the time. Then there are thousands of judgment calls to worry about,good lord who never makes errors of judgement?

All the while he is learning he has other people checking up on him. You didn't do that right! This rule isn't how it was meant to be! You charged to much for this!

It takes a world class nice guy to do all that and not get defensive as all get out!

We will not even get into players going to the boards and questioning the DM's calls with the forums! Good lord! Cut a guy a break already!

Look,I'm not saying your DM isn't wrong sometimes or even petty or touchy at times(I know I can be). The way your going about it though is going to make it worse. At least you stopped looking up rules during the game,now try stopping afterwards.

If you want to help him out and make your games better try this.

When you guys are hanging out not gaming and he is working on the game or just playing video games or whatever...read the rules. Anything you find that is different or just something you didn't know bring it up.

Bringing rules up when you don't have any sort of agenda and talking about them can really help your DM (and you) learn them better. Also if he wants to make rule changes there is no better time to find out than when you are not playing and you life isn't on the line!!

Think of it like this.

What if you guys meet with your friends one night a week at your house and everyone gets hungry.You take it on yourself to go to the store and buy all the food and drink.Come home and spend hours looking up recipes and cooking the meals and really hope everyone is happy.

Then your boyfriend starts eating and then starts looking up the recipes and pointing out that you messed some of them up.Maybe complains some and goes on facebook and asks others if they thought you had messed up and what he could do about it.

You know it's kinda funny if you think about it.

Don't tell him what the name of the monster is.

Don't tell him the AC.

Don't tell him the hit points.

Don't tell him the saves.

He is just swinging in the dark! Just swinging in the dark!

I can just hear my player now" Am I even playing right now? Do I need to roll? I'm rolling,My character is swinging for all he is worth! I rolled a 19 and have a +6.Is that anything? Do I need to roll again? I'm rolling again..."

I poke fun!

You know if you don't tell AC and hit points and instead just use GREAT descriptions in game to signify those things,then it doesn't matter.

The issue is I have never sat at a DM's table that did those things every single round.

If nothing else once 37 monsters hit the battlemap and all six players bellied up to the table it became a simple hit or miss with HP deduction thrown in.

If your DMing skills rock on a high enough level that those characters receive all those hundreds of clues to how its doing and how tough it is then who needs AC and hit points? Yeah those would be a distraction!

But for me,I am just not on that level. I don't think I have even used a blood trail in the middle of combat,most of the time I forget to even have the monsters make much in the way of noises in the middle of melee ect..

I just tell my pc's the monsters AC and hit points. I find that not doing so breaks immersion. The player characters are in that world seeing,smelling,feeling and hearing things the pc's do not. They would be able to tell if that wound they just gave the monster was a bloody gash down its side or a miss that nearly took its head off.

All the monsters and npc's know the parties AC and hit points. Even going so far as sometimes to ignore a heavily armored member in favor of a none armored member,after a few rounds of flailing away.

Goldenfrog wrote:

Fighters are seen as very tough and fun characters while barbs dish out tons of damage but are hard to keep alive.

If you build for survivability I'm not sure I would put my money on the fighter. Depending on the party the barbarian can be VERY hard hard to kill.

Our Party Barb walks around with nothing on but soft leather pants,fur boots and a long red cloak. The guy makes fun of anyone in armor and has the lowest ac in the history of our games. Frankly the Wizard looks down on his AC from a lofty height.

Now he does have a HUGE DR and does so much damage that its stupid,really really stupid. I have seen him one shot a APL+4 boss kind of stupid.

He also face plants more than anyone else.

His attitude is great as well. YOU CAN'T TOUCH THIS! one round,eating dirt the next,followed by a heal and suddenly he pops back up"You can't touch this!"

I think most issues along these lines are made up or mostly forum issues. For instance in my games no one has ever made a rogue or trap detecter type character without playing the rogue class.

Fighters are seen as very tough and fun characters while barbs dish out tons of damage but are hard to keep alive.

Heck,even the high level caster verse the high level everyone else issue isn't seen as a issue. The wizards and such are still seen as super easy to take down unless heavily protected.

I think a lot of issues assume a high level of jerkatude in the game,who else would make a character just to make another character useless?

Not to be beating a dead horse or trying to shut anyone down but...

Paizo has made it pretty clear that if you want a less crunchy role playing game and are not happy with the Beginner Box as a complete game or for what it is a introduction to Pathfinder core for new players, Find another game.

They can't please everyone and realize this. So instead they focus there efforts on what they are good at and what keeps there company going...Pathfinder!

What if they did make a expert set? I'm sure based on the Beginner Box it would be GREAT! Now you have rules 6-10! GREAT!!

How long do you think it would be until they started to get requests and complaints for more? Why can't our characters go over 10th level? This game is great but the 10th level max is just crippling! Where are the adventures for this optional version of Pathfinder? Why does our game have so little support?

What would it do to sales of Pathfinder Core? What projects would have to be shelved or delayed to deal with this?

Really I don't think they even want a third party to advance this cause. I think they just want you to play the Pathfinder full game and if you are unhappy with that...sorry man,they did there best.

Not every game can be for everyone and in the rpg field there are PLENTY of really good games of every type.

I would personally love a Beginner Box/Pathfinder Lite version of the game.Heck I even think it could be made compatible with the full version of the game but I realize that it would be TONS of work,most of there fan base wouldn't use it and it would take away from projects already in the works.

In my game I currently have 41 20th+ level characters in and around Absalom. Now for sure many of them are only there part time,much as the pc's are only there part time.

I would say the city is the center of high level play in my game.Almost all of those people traveled to the city instead of being born there.

The high level people in the city represent the high level people from all over the world that for one reason or another choose not to settle down and forge a kingdom,not to create a Wizard School but instead are professional adventurers.

People who stay in the game because they love the life,for one reason or another.

Some seek godhood,others just more and more power,some just always wonder whats over the next hill and some just love to kill creatures and take there stuff while being cheered for it.

In my game anyway the normal rules for what you would be able to find in the location are overruled by the simple fact so many adventurers can be found there. Counting my pc's alone this figure is WAY out there and they are by no means the majority of adventurers in and around the city.

If your Boss fights don't include at least one game of Eye spy,one game of Checkers and a staring match to see who will blink first between the DM and players then,you just have no clue how to build a boss encounter.

Dude,you just Nuked from Orbit.

Come on...now where do we go from here?

Gnomeship Troopers?

Back in the day you could just keep going till you died,3 minutes later you charge down the hall with a new character.

Friggin do that in Pathfinder and aye aye aye What a pain in the arse!

You just HAD to one up me eh?

Gandalf with a AK-47 is just so unrealistic.

Frodo with a Gat! "Yo Sauron! Say Hello to my little friend!"

Aww sputter sputter! You just....about Tasslehoff!

I'm going for a nice lay down now and pretend this didn't happen.

It's the DM's world. Let him know how you feel and IF he insists on guns.....try and just have fun anyway.

Really few DM's I have played with like Guns ni the game much at all so there is a big chance it will not come up.

Even if it doesn't though,let him know how you feel cause sooner or later it might.

I did play in one game that the DM let guns out in a big way.It was a pain till mid/high level play then it just didn't seem to matter anymore. I still didn't like it but everyone else was doing so many crazy things....gunplay seemed rather unimpressive and one of the least breaking fantasy parts of that game. Flying ships,Hoards of Synthesis Summoners,Wizards turning into Dragons,Gods getting killed,mountains blowing up.A Gun? Mah..whatever.

Orfamay Quest, I simply have to disagree with you here, Bilbo Baggins isn't even close to the iconic Rogue. He is a first level character thrown in over his head and is incompetent at everything. Think Aladdin, think The Grey Mouser, think Danny Ocean, think Sherlock Holmes, think Tasselhoff Burrfoot. Competent rogues are the smartest guy in the room with 3 backup plans and 7 side missions. If they are not that guy then they are unassuming like Bilbo of Tasslehoff, but that is a function of being child sized, not of being a rogue. The unassuming guy who has no magic and is bad at fighting is really not PC material in most games.

Did you just put Tasselhoff and Competent rogues are the smartest guy in the room with 3 backup plans and 7 side missions,right next to each other?

Please hand in your, Uncle Trapspringer's Adventurers Club, membership card.

I'm going to agree with stuff that has already been said but then play devils advocate.

I have found many people want to play this type of Rogue due to movies and books that depicted the rogue as a anti-hero. The kind that you could not trust with a copper piece but with the heart of gold(deep down underneath). Heck often they are somewhat cowardly to boot!

We all have seen the type is countless stories and it's only natural that people want to play them in rpg's.

The trouble is they don't translate well into a rpg. Instead what you end up with is a character everyone hates and nobody trusts.

Perhaps it isn't the player being a arsehat but instead someone trying to role play the typical book type thief!

The answer is to take him aside and make sure he understands that his CHARACTERS actions and having real consequences for the player. Let him know that it simply isn't working out and instead of coming across as a anti-hero and good hearted rogue he is coming across as a jerk.

Who stole the Rogues Iconic ability to look cool?

Wizards might technically not have top notch DPR due to being more nova oriented but at many tables in effect they are the king of Damage.

Yes,a wizard will never even hold a candle to a Rogue's damage per round if fighting hundreds of rounds(or whatever)but any class that can nova out the VAST amounts of damage a well prepared Wizard can for a limited number of times per day is still considered by most to be top notch damage dealer.

Given that damage is only a small part of the Wizards area of expertise doesn't mean it isn't there.

20 friggin players? Good Lord! I have not seen such a spectacle since my Classic D&D days in middle school in the 70's/80's.

Heck even then I think I thought a dozen players too many.

The best advice I can give for boss fights is to chuck the Pathfinder encounter building guidelines put of the window and stretch things a bit.

A single APL+3 badguy,two APL+1 lieutenants,four APL-3 minion types with a few terrain choices and perhaps even a well placed trap works wonders.

My guys will still win such a encounter pretty handily unless the dice gods betray them but it will at least be fun and interesting.

I think the guidelines are GREAT for new DM's and DM's with unknown quantities for PC's though. It's a great place to start,it just isn't the Iron Rule many think it to be.

Bah even back in Diablo,when the epic boss fights occurred it was hardly ever one big badguy.

I still remember fighting Diablo with my screen completely full of red nasty demons and having to fight my way to him while chugging potions like mad,killing as many of the little guys as possible and laying into Diablo only for a second or two then having to fastwalk away to the town portal to heal up and restock!

Then head back to find out Diablo had moved off and had summoned craploads of new demon different minions!

Oh how I still hate thee Diablo! With my last breath I spit at thee!

What a boss fight really is is any encounter rigged to be very challenging and have a good chance at fully challenging the group. Sorta like the King Encounter of the dungeon or at least area.

Can it be done with one really tough monster? Well,perhaps but probably not as well as you could with a less tough monster with lots of others to prove support/interference/control and action economy.

I think when he reads boss fight,he thinks of one long slug match between one monster and 4-5 pc's with little tactile involvement other than setting up attacks.

I mean yeah that does sound boring but who designs boss fights like that?

I wonder is it's just the name Rogue that gets us into trouble?

What if it was the Wizard that was in Rogues exact same boat?

What if Wizard was a class that had its main abilities farmed out to other even non-casting class's?

What if one of the bards archetypes gave full arcane caster assess and spells? Then other archetypes started doing the same thing? A few books later and the wizard had subpar options and degraded some of the wizards spellpower while awarding those same spells to more and more class's.

If Wizards suddenly found themselves the lowest damage dealers and with no more arcane knowledge or might than other class's that offered other options as well as arcane spellcasting!

Would Wizards take to the boards crying foul and be meet with naysayers spouting "Wizard isn't a damage dealing class! Your a Wizard for Gods sake! Don't try and compete with other class's just sit back and enjoy being Supernatural and Magical!

So what if the Paladin can cast fireballs that are better than yours and the Barbarian can out knowledge you on arcane matters! You are a Wizard! This isn't a mmo! Everything isn't about damage!

The next time you are in a group and everyone else is defeating the evil badguys and you have nothing to do...simply look awesome and mysterious!

Hate to break it to ya MartialPlayer603 but if you played in our game you would be right here on the boards upset.

See you would have the lowest hit points(actually untrue as yours is a few points above our wizard),AC and do considerably less damage than even the healing focused cleric in my group. You would die or have to be rescued often.

Can you not see that this isn't about rogue Haters but about people who love/like the rogue who can't make him work in a group?

I mean sure if I was playing in a game where the barbarian had a 17 cha and duel wielded daggers as a halfling for role playing effect and the cleric spent every round spamming channeling and the DM set encounters accordingly...Rogue would be fine as is! Nothing to see here!

The fact that I play in a Pathfinder game where all of the players try and push what can be done,try and take on really hard encounters where everyone is depended on to give 200% ruins that.

I wish people would realize this isn't about burning up on the rogue. We frigging love the rogue!

You can't design a role playing game based around killing things,make splatbooks ect that add more and more options and power to the class's so that the bar keeps getting pushed further and further up and then act like it doesn't matter how you do in regards to the bar.

I'm going to say that perhaps Headfirst just has a easy DM. I know I had one a while back.

My rogue almost never drew fire even in the middle of mobs. I always seemed to luck out and a lot of the downsides to rogue were glossed over. Heck he even let me get off sneak attack at ranged just because he thought it was fair.

Sure he wasn't the best DM around but being flat out nice and easy went a long way.

Then we started playing with the new DM, who is great by the way,but who believes in playing by the book mostly and doesn't seem to be happy unless he plays the monsters and npc's as they would be,not as it's better for us for them to behave.

I mean think about it.

If your DM doesn't have the monsters attack the rogue when in range but target the tankish types mainly,if you get (special) magic gear meant to fill in your weak spots as a rogue and in general everything normally ends up roses you might be staring at the message board Rogue Sucks thread as well thinking"What the heck are these guys talking about? Man,they just don't know how to play a Rogue! It's not like its rocket science,frigging Flank you idiots!Sneak attack! stop trying to go toe to toe with mobs! Geez what Noobs!

With my rogue it's not that I can't set up sneak attacks pretty easy.I can and do often.

No,the issue is that many of the encounters have us fighting pitched battles against many creatures.Some our level or greater,some a few levels less and many minor ones that are several levels less.

My rogue is often plunged into the middle of mass melee flanking monsters left and right. I can often get off sneak attack but STILL do sub-par damage compared to the barbarian or even the fighter.

At the same time there is really NOTHING to stop the monsters I'm in the middle of from just kicking the $%$% out of me while I'm flanking.

After all in order for me to be flanking...in many many occasions I'm hanging my arse out in the middle of the pack getting my bloody smears all over the floor.

I dunno,it would be nice since there are so few of us fighting to save the world verse various Evils,if I could hold up my end actually help kill some of them without leaving more of my blood on the floor than theirs.

I do NOT need to top any DPR meter list.

It would be grand to actually make the list.

Avh wrote:

Now, find for yourself who is supposed to have the most charisma out of the two.

The rogue.

No wonder you guys think they suck. You don't even remotely build them to their strengths. You try to force them to be what they're not.

Sorry,most of us didn't realize that the Rogues main role was to be a NPC until a short while ago.

Why aren't you flanking?

Because I'm laying on the ground with my brains smashed in from the three nasty $%$%$ the fighter and barbarian didn't occupy.

the rogue has a hard time even though it is optimized.

Fixed By the Ever Helpful Goldenfrog!

No need to go to every pathfinder game....simply get the games to come to us...lets go see.

Watching people pee on shoes is getting boring.

What about Dervish dance as a option?

Just pump Dex.

I know it would cost feats ect..especially with scimitar but I'm thinking it might end up worth it.

Nothing worse than when I lay out some smack talk and then blumder into it with my own face,makes me suddenly wonder what's on TV.

Well damn,I know I hate it when that happends.

someone with more ambition than me make a thread about how to fix rogue and lets vote on the fix!

Once it's fixed we can just point to the thread and say"Fixed"

Who knows if the goal of the thread is to fix the rogue in the easiest,least complicated way,maybe Paizo will read it.

Guys,are you not reading his posts? He isn't going to be able to show you because he isn't claiming to be effective in combat and out of combat no one else in his group is trying to compete(good thing cause talk about $%$% move).

He doesn't mind being a wet noodle in combat.He is fine with that.

Now maybe he has been playing rogue a long time,back in the Classic and AD&D days rogue sucked as much in combat as they do in Pathfinder,and is just used to it. Frankly if this is the case I think he is forgetting just how much Thief was 100% irreplaceable and yet necessary back in those days(save or die/save or major suck).

He isn't claiming to have solved the rogue issue he is saying there isn't a issue. It's working as it should.

I also think small races with weapon rules were made just to spite my Rogue.

Halfling Rogues are just WHERE IT IS AT(in my head) so the entire wet noodle rogue issue is just frankly ENHANCED by a even smaller,wet,noodle.

Maybe in Pathfinder 2nd edition they will actually make the halfling rogue tiny size so I can fit in the pocket of my other barbarian character?

Problems solved! You can have your out of pocket err combat utility and in pocket err I mean combat usefulness as well(passing up potions).

From the PFSRD:

Nowhere in here does it say anything about being masters of combat, don't try to play them that way, play them so that if a situation comes up, they can handle it.

Take a stopwatch to the average Pathfinder game session.

Start the watch at the very beginning of the game.

Stop the time during any combat.

At the end of the game stop the time and look at it.

I think you might be amazed at just how much of the time was spent in combat.

Bah,the whole other class can do rogue better argument only matter if you are playing in a group that...they actually do that.

Not that it isn't a valid point but it's just not in my experience that it happeneds outside of the boards.

The wet noodle syndrome however is a horrible affliction that effects every rogue not in a party of clueless newbies. Countless rogues are effected every day as this much ignored issue strikes down rogue after rogue across our fair land.

With only a small donation of 1 copper piece sent to Paizo with the Save our Rogues heading on the email might make all the difference if enough of us really care.

The next Rogue to fall could be you!

Please email today!

If I could build a rogue with the same level of out of combat range that I have now but came within 30% of the damage our barbarian could dish out at will(or almost at all)I would be thrilled.

To be honest I don't care that other class's have so many rogue options.In my groups no one ever picks those,what I hate is that combat is a HUGE part of our games and I am left swinging a wet noodle and praying the monsters don't mind the wet part because if they do I'm gonna die real fast.

If I could badass kill 1 monster for every 3 or 4 our barbarian did I would be ok with that. After all look at all the other stuff I can do!

As it is now though,I'm not even playing the same game he is.I'm playing OD&D with D6 damage and he is playing 4E and smacking down gods!

Sure I can actually do better damage(still not good though) with options that remove a lot of my out of combat ability.......but WTH would I want to do that? Especially to still end up on the wet noodle end?

"PPPPPPPAAAAAAIIIIIIZZZZZOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" Screamed like Kirk yelled Khan.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Headfirst wrote:

So what DO you do as a rogue? Out of combat, you're a facilitator. You open the doors, remove the traps, and scout ahead. You know a guy who knows a guy that will buy all the stuff your party can't sell on the open market. When everyone else is spending their downtime drinking and healing, you can rustle up some extra cash doing what you do best.

Great, you're an NPC.

Sigh. I guess I should have expected this sort of reply.

Apparently, all anyone cares about is how each class stacks up in DPS. This isn't an MMO, children.

If you want a tabletop RPG that plays more like an MMO, where every single class does exactly the same damage, go play 4th Edition D&D.

Oh! Wow,you really just went there? With THIS kind of crowd around you? Dude come on.

It's obvious that you have a (thing) with the rogue and that's fine. So do I. Love em! It's not that the rogue is unplayable,it is perfectly playable,its just not very effective even in a non-optimized kinda game.

They need to fix that so folks can play a rogue and still be effective compared to other people. Right now..they are not.Right now they get out damaged by healing focused clerics in our games. That just is NOT pretty.

The whole children and mmo talk is just a sure way to draw some heavy fire your way. Why not try and keep things friendly?

Headfirst wrote:

So what DO you do as a rogue? Out of combat, you're a facilitator. You open the doors, remove the traps, and scout ahead. You know a guy who knows a guy that will buy all the stuff your party can't sell on the open market. When everyone else is spending their downtime drinking and healing, you can rustle up some extra cash doing what you do best.

Great, you're an NPC.

Ok man,you made me spew some mountain dew on that one. You're a NPC!

Priceless!

Paizo screwed the pooch on this one. I'm guessing none of the developers actually play rogues. How this happens while screams of "Rogue Sucks!" ring out all over the forums for years I really don't know.

Maybe the developer that plays rogue was trying out something new and different, the synthesis summoner!

I heard third or fourth hand that they are at least aware of the issue(aka not 100% blind and Deaf)and are planning some sort of fix based on talents or something but who the heck knows how that is gonna turn out.

Till then just house rule for fix's for the rogue.Yeah it sucks but thems the breaks.

Ban whatever you want,as long as you can find enough players to play.

I know one DM who runs a game with core book class's and races and banns even paizo's other pathfinder books and options.

Several players will not play in his games but he has more than enough that do.

On the other hand...

Does requesting a certain level of buy-in and willingness from the players to share in the storytelling make for a bad GM? Are players never responsible for completely destroying a built-up work?

Side-rant: A sure sign of a bad player is one who points to his CN alignment as justification for his actions. Just going to throw that out there.

-Matt

Only if the DM says something like"guys I want to DM this adventure and it's all I'm really into at the moment" and then the players buy in.

Otherwise just because the adventure is on the high seas,there is nothing bad/wrong with the party wanting to head inland and find the ancient lost dwarven hold.

That doesn't mean it's not annoying as all get out for the DM though.

DM having a bad day it sounds like. DMing looks a lot easier than it is. Give the guy a break.

Yeah not really evil from what you have said and for sure Barbs have no innate respect for civilizations law.

Still though,obviously your DM is a little overwhelmed.Try talking to him about it and the choices as you saw them.

The Cleric really is a great class.It's very possible to be armored up like a tank,deal out pretty good damage as a melee and being a full caster on top of that.

Being shackled with healing 80% of the time just ruins all that(even if it does need to be done at times). Some people have trouble being support especially when they realize just how kick arse they could be otherwise.

I'm not bashing clerics who go full healer. I'm just saying I can see where the trouble with some clerics comes from.

I think for most groups what is needed is a mix of the cleric kicking arse and healing when things get rough.

It's just hard for them to ween the other group members off of having heal on demand.

If this guy is really family or close friend,put in some more time on him.Let him know he can't behave like that and if he does smack him with the hammer of the Gods! -50% hit points on the spot as his character feels heart flutters.Twice is a heart attack,and time to roll up a new character.Have a will of Iron about it and sooner or later he will coem around. Also when he is hogging the spotlight away from other pc's dont pay attention to him,direct all your attention to the other players.

This stuff isn't normal for DM's to do but dang it,family and friends are hard to give the boot to and still have fun at Christmas.

If the guy isn't family or a really good friend,just let it be known to your other players that the guy doesn't get a invite. Don't talk to him about it,don't bring it up next time you see him,simply don't invite him back.Since he is a nice guy you don't want to ruin a outside of the table friendship if you can help it.

I went back and read the OP's posts. This isn't a fighter issue at all but a cleric one.

The Player playing the Cleric is not finding the support cleric role a fun one.

He is of the mind that Cleric is truly a bad arse class but not if all you do is heal!

This is a issue with MANY clerics and one hard to get out of(is why so many people don't play clerics). Once a band-aid,always a band-aid kind of thing.

He can try this.

He needs to talk to everyone else and let them know he will change characters or stop healing during combat.This will probably not go over well as to most players hearing this, what he is saying is"You are going to die".

A party can win with only after fighting healing but only be using tactics wildly different from before.

That fighter who so obviously soaked up tons of damage will need to get out of the way and let mobs beat the crap out of the cleric,the bard and the sorcerer.Only by sharing the damage can this whole thing work.

The cleric will need to learn to dish out the damage like crazy to make up for the lack of healing and kill things fast.

Really it's all about killing everything FAST and fighting smart.Also healing magic needs to become a priority for cash spent by the players.

Also keep in mind you will not be as effective as before.There is a reason the tank,healer,damage dealer rolls formed in the first place.It works and well.

You might want to talk to the DM about creating a Feat the pc's can invest in that makes drinking a potion a free action and doesn't cause Attacks of Opportunity.