How powerful do you think a Samsaran Juju Oracle with the Black-blooded archetype using the Words of Power system with an eventual Graveknight template would be?
Especially in comparison to a Divine Exemplar (cleric/paladin multi class archetype).
Nevermind I just noticed that the Samsaran has the best favored class bonus with the Oracle netting me more spells, so forget the Words of Power bit. Except for the 3rd level feat for the Undeath word.
There seems to be some confusion in this guide. Under improved channel, you state that since you can use a single standard action to hurt your enemies AND heal your minions, it's not a bad idea. But that's not quite how Channel Energy works. You choose to either heal OR harm, independent of your channel energy type. So you could heal your minions OR hurt enemies.
Other than that, pretty good. It'd be interesting to see a discussion on Variant Channeling though. Some of them could be pretty good if you have a lot of minions, or want to debuff enemies.
Also, your undead minion sheets are very useful. But also a bit wrong. It lists their BAB as their HD.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
These doubtlessly were NOT intended, but as far as I can tell, they are RAW.
I think it's reasonable to go on the RAI here. The vast majority of GM's aren't going to allow SLA's on skeletons created from animate dead.
I would allow it because it's RAW. Really, why remove a legitimate resource from a player?
As a DM, I should reward the player for being clever, not punish him for it.
I haven't seen any reason that you couldn't make a spell-gorged zombie with Animate Dead.
They're mindless so that covers that. They get to technically keep class hit die (but not abilities and the die switch to d8s) so they're definitely a goto for a low level minion maker that just finished off an enemy caster and wants more than just a bloody burning skeleton with low HP.
Brewer
Have you rethought this guide in light of the new ruling that SLA qualifies for Mystic Theurge? You would be down one level that could be compensated by magical knack trait, but you would have a boat-load more spells. You lose the channeling, but is that worth it?
cheers
Necro/ dot
I've got a new mini-guide for those casters that are wanting to have some undead minions.
The Guide: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWFhSWc1ZzAzaDg/edit
Where the doc is? It no work on my PC. I sad.
(non-early entry) MYSTIC THEURGE - necromancer edition
CN dhampir (ancientborn) cleric 4 (desna [luck, fate inquisition]) / wizard 6 / mystic theurge 10
levels go: clr 1/wiz 5/MT 10/wiz 1/clr 3
STATS (20pb):
str 10 (-2pt +2r), dex 16, con 18 (5pt -2r), int 30 (10pt), wis 28 (7pt +2r), cha 10
int/int/int/int/wis (level), +6 dex/con/int/wis (belt/headband), +4 int/wis (book/wish)
traits: gifted adept (animate dead) / signature spell (animate dead)
FEATS:
1 - improved initiative
2 - spell focus (necromancy)*, command undead*
3 - varisian tattoo (necromancy)
5 - bloatmage initiate (necromancy)
7 - spell specialization (animate dead)
9 - undead master
11 - greater spell focus (necromancy)
13 - improved familiar (cacodaemon)
15 - ???
17 - ???
19 - ???
SPELLS: *nothing listed here; animate dead, command undead, death knell, and desecrate all important*
wizard
0 (infinite)-
1 (7+2/day)-
2 (7+2/day)-
3 (6+2/day)-
4 (6+2/day)-
5 (6+2/day)-
6 (6+2/day)-
7 (4+2/day)-
8 (3+2/day)-
9 (2+2/day)-
cleric
0 (infinite)-
1 (6+1/day)-
2 (6+1/day)-
3 (6+1/day)-
4 (6+1/day)-
5 (6+1/day)-
6 (6+1/day)-
7 (4+1/day)-
8 (3+1/day)-
9 (2+1/day)-
MISC:
favored class (wizard, +1 CL (necromancy))
esoteric training (35 fame [+3 cleric, +1 wizard])
greensting scorpion familiar
CL 17 wizard / 17 cleric
CL 27-30 animate dead (+2 spell foc, +2 spell spec, +2 trait, +1 tattoo, +1 bloatmage init, +1 FCB, +1 death knell, +1 stone, (-1-+2) wayfinder)
+12 initiative (+3 dex +4 feat +4 familiar +1 stone)
BUCKETS:
animate - 140 HD (blood command, wayfinder only affects spells), 85-94 HD/cast (commanding infusion+desecrate+undead master)
feat - 6 HD, 6 days/channel
spell - <><> HD, 18 days/cast
- - - - - - - - - -
COMMENTS/MUSING:
-I also suppose one could go for earlier MT access (cleric 1 (desna [luck, fate inquisition])/wizard 3/MT 10/wizard 3/cleric 3) a the cost of delaying the cruoromancer animate dead bonus(es).
-cacodaemon synergizes with death knell to both increase CL from the spell and reduce material costs for animate dead via soulstones (from the cacodaemon collecting the dead guy's soul).
-the character can use a staff of command undead with no problem, but you could always cast it yourself if needed I suppose.
-I'm unsure of control undead (the bonus feat)'s usefulness since it only works off your wizard level (or cleric level if you take it legit). not sure what you could squeeze into that 6HD limit, but hey, its free.
-tacking on the graveknight template for their huge undead bucket would help I'm sure, but I don't feel like statting that.
EDIT: for graveknight you'd need to be evil aligned, grab heavy armor proficiency at 9th level, spend a crapton of money on a suit of special heavy armor (hoo boy that ASF), wear that for two levels (at every opportunity), do a very dark murder-suicide ritual and hope the dice dont screw you, in echange for some free mounted combat feats, undead traits, 100 HD of commandable undead (as animate dead), and misc. combat bonuses.
i'm not sure the effort is worth it for that 100HD of extra undead.
.
Anyone got more ideas to squeeze more power out of this? there's still three feats available.
you make a good point, but hey, it's still no-save for unintelligent undead and its a free [insert 6HD undead here], so why not?
EDIT: made some edits to the build for more ease of use in early levels.
have they stated if the Evangelist works with MT? I would house rule no, but curious.
If yes the Cleric 1/wiz 3, MT 10, Evangelist 6
casts as 16 cleric, 18 wizard
alright, using the build i threw together (and after seeing control undead's 2HD/CL limit making that bucket limit 48 HD--50HD if you use a blood infusion), an example undead horde for the character might look like this.
EXAMPLE UNDEAD HORDE (using only bestiary 1, assuming no wayfinder slotted stone for the sake of no CL variance):
ANIMATE (wizard): BS hill giant x8 (80HD), FZ purple worm (16HD), FZ roc (16HD), BS adult black dragon x2 (28HD)
ANIMATE (cleric): BS hill giant x8 (80HD), FZ purple worm x2 (32HD), BS adult black dragon x2 (28HD)
FEAT: BS troll (6HD)
SPELL: BS glabrezu demon x4 (48HD), *2HD remaining*
this is on top of being a mystic theurge with access to 9th level wizard and cleric spells. tack on the lich template and you've got yourself a BBEG.
what's your caster level?
CL 6th
lets see... that'd make 24 HD of controllables assuming no mods to animate HD (like cruoromancer, juju oracle, etc.)
i'd have:
fast zombie giant eagle (4HD) - speedy large flying critter to ride around on that never gets tired.
bloody skeleton ogres x5 (20HD total) - resilient, strong, great brute squad.
you'd need desecrate (being a cleric or a cleric in the party, or via scroll) for the ogres, but i'd say they're worth it.
it'll run you 1100g in onyx for them all though (I'd say deduct it from your starting money/WBL as a gesture of good faith to your DM)
another 150g for the desecrates if you use 3 scrolls (or if you're starting out, fluff as using three scrolls and deduct it anyway)
Oh ogres, why didn't I think of that! Thanks for the suggestions, those will work great. Man, those bloody skeleton ogres are really good for 5th level. Check my math if you don't mind, did I miss anything?
Ogre bloody skeleton, animated in a desecration.
HD 4d8
Init +4
HP 37 (4d8 +8 from Cha, +8 from desecrate)
AC 11(10 +2 NA -1 size + 0 dex)
Str 21, Dex 10, Wis 10 Cha 14,
BAB +3
Fort +3 Reflex +1 Will +4
Fast healing 1, Deathless.
Feats: Improved initiativeAttacks
Clawx2 +8/1d6+5
Greatclub +8/2d8+7
everything i'm saying is picked from the guide, as for the ogre's specific stats, i got no clue (sorry).
though doesnt desecrate also give undead made in them a profane bonus to attacks and such?
the theurgy feat is useful for folks following the MT line--you can sacrifice an arcane spell to buff a divine one's CL by 1 (so you can sacrifice a 2nd-level arcane spell for a buff to the cleric's animate dead).
Undead domain great!
Death's Embrace: The sheer power of this ability combined with a Phylactery of Negative Channeling is hard to convey in words, so I'll try to set up a scenario for you.
Imagine a level 8 Cleric in a hallway with Ogres streaming in from both sides. His two NPC compatriots hear the sound of carnage coming from upstairs, where the rest of the party is fighting to their deaths. "Go help the others. Nothing will pass while I yet draw breath," the Cleric says. 30 Ogres later, the Cleric is still alive.
Why? 6d6 damage to all the ogres, 6d6 healing to himself. Get this if you are a Malice cleric.
Now can damage foe heal self same time.
Death's Embrace (Ex): At 8th level, you heal damage instead of taking damage from channeled negative energy. If the channeled negative energy targets undead, you heal hit points just like undead in the area.
Huzzah for independent clauses sentences!
Undead Lord archetype still inferior. But so flavorful! And make good Hangover Cleric.
Me want archetype shares teamwork feats with undead minion each. Why hunters inquisitor get all that fun?
well, seeing as someone has so graciously necro'd the necromancy thread (how fitting!) i should post my more recent version of the MT ubernecromancer build posted earlier in the thread:
MYSTIC THEURGE - NECROMANCER EDITION
*levels go: clr 1/wiz 5/MT 10/wiz 1/clr 3*
stats (20pb):
str 16 (-2+2r), dex 18 (5-2r), con 20 (5), int 30 (5+2r), wis 26 (7), cha 16
wis/int/int/int/int (level), +6 all (gear), +4 int/wis (book/wish)
traits: signature spell (animate dead) / gifted adept (animate dead)
feats:
1 - spell focus (necromancy)
2 - scribe scroll*, command undead*
3 - varisian tattoo (necromancy, 'touch of fatigue' 3/day)
5 - bloatmage initiate (necromancy, constant medium load)
7 - theurgy
9 - spell specialization (animate dead)
11 - persistent spell
13 - greater spell focus (necromancy)
15 - quicken spell
17 - dazing spell
19 - spell perfection (animate dead)
.
SPELLS: animate dead, command undead, (greater-) death knell (-aura), and desecrate are important, but unneeded after you break the animate dead HD limit (detailed below)
WIZARD
0 (infinite), 1th (7+2/day), 2th (7+2/day), 3th (6+2/day), 4th (6+2/day), 5th (6+2/day), 6th (6+2/day), 7th (4+2/day), 8th (3+2/day), 9th (2+2/day)
CLERIC
0 (infinite), 1th (6+1/day), 2th (6+1/day), 3th (6+1/day), 4th (6+1/day), 5th (6+1/day), 6th (6+1/day), 7th (4+1/day), 8th (3+1/day), 9th (2+1/day)
.
MISC:
favored class (wizard)
esoteric training (35 fame [+3 cleric, +1 wizard])
strand of prayer beads ('standard' without healing/smiting, 18,000g)
\__>bead of karma: 1/day, +4 CL for 10 minutes (!!!)
moon circlet (CL +1 waxing, +2 full, -1 waning, -2 new)
'reliquary' +5 medium fort | spell storing mithral buckler (acts as permanent alter for desecrate)
CL 17/17 wizard/cleric
CL (animate dead) 40-43 (wiz/clr) (17 base, +4 focus, +4 spec, +2 trait, +2 tattoo, +2 bloatmage, +1 FCB, +1 stone, +(-1-+2) wayfinder, +4 bead, +2 circlet +1 death knell, +1 arcane beacon, +1 theurgy (cleric-only))
CL 30-33 (control undead) (17 base, +2 focus, +1 tattoo, +1 bloatmage, +1 FCB, +1 stone, +(-1-+2) wayfinder, +4 bead, +2 circlet, +1 death knell, +1 arcane beacon)
.
UNDEAD BUCKETS (not counting wayfinder variance):
animate (wizard) - 205 HD (blood command), 246 HD/cast (commanding infusion + desecrate)
animate (cleric) - 210 HD (blood command), 252 HD/cast (commanding infusion + desecrate)
feat - 6 HD
control undead - [one creature], 33 days/cast (refreshed every full moon)
.
NOTES/ADVICE:
-if you don't want to worship urgathoa for some reason, go with separatist cleric (any deity with the magic domain) for the fate inquisition.
-notice that your HD created is more than your bucket limit--animate dead lets you indefinitely keep anything you animate with that one casting--any 'overflow' is taken out of PREVIOUS castings of animate dead, so you can actually surpass your 410HD total animate limit (to a whopping 498 HD barring wayfinder variance) as long as you don't cast any more animate dead spells from either bucket afterwards.
clocking in at ~504 HD of undead before mythic is even in the picture, I'm actually unsure what more to do with it (or how to squeeze any more CL bonuses for animate dead out of it short of collaborative casting). I'm also not sure you get the school abilities if you go sin mage--i made the build with the assumption that you did, but if you're trading the abilities just for an extra school spell per day it can honestly be scrapped for the regular necro[undead] school.
if that's the case, then reduce the listed wizard spells/day by 1 for each level.
.
also forum troll: if you animate a juju zombie of someone with the teamwork feat you want, they still keep it with the template as far as i know, so that is a thing you could do in a roundabout way.
Helpful guide, but I'm not seeing the advantage of the cacodaemon familiar. Where does it say the soul gem helps with casting.
Is desecrate the only reason people call Wizards worse necromancers?
that and they get animate dead later than clerics, if memory serves.
not that it matters in most games, since scrolls are a thing, but in some corner cases like a low-magic game where you don't have access to those, not having all your options built-in hurts a bit (not that it isn't fun as all get-out anyway).
cruoromancer makes a great case for the wizard though.
So if you had a Necromancer Wizard and an evil Cleric to cast desecrate..... Everything would be awesome?
So if you had a Necromancer Wizard and an evil Cleric to cast desecrate..... Everything would be awesome?
though since cleric has that and animate dead it raises the question of why the wizard is even there.
honestly though, the UMD DC for a scroll of desecrate isnt that bad--there's also darksticks (i think they're called) on archives of nethys that you stick into the ground and it desecrates the area (you can also make a zombie out of them, but those are worse than simply casting animate dead, and only made one at a time, and you dont have control of the undead to start with, and so on). doesnt even require a UMD check to my knowledge--just stick it into the ground and it does the work for you.
WelI l dunno.. maybe because a Necromancy Wizard gets more than just animate dead? Don't forget how amazing the necromancy school is.
The Cleric is not a necromancer because that player wants to play up the other aspects of the cleric class. Since he's a divine caster he's able to just make scrolls of desecrate or assist the wizard with open alots.
I'd like to add the following;
Dhampir (Vetala-Born!) Cruoromancer Wizard specializing in Necromancy (Undead subschool) can be rather nice since;
* +1/4 CL for necro spells (FCB)
* Can Bolster himself (Racial Negative Energy Affinity)
* Even more DC/debuff if required (1st) (LOSE arcane bond though)
* Higher HD bucket, higher animation standard (5th)
* Built in Desecrate effect (50% of normal though) (10th)
* Free scouting through minions (15th)
* Free infusions (20th)
Since the release of the ACG, arcane casters can now heal their undead through Repair Undead(, Mass) (1st/5th lvl resp.) and Dhampirs, as a result, can heal themselves if they are an arcane caster. (Warforged Arcane caster flashbacks ftw)
Thus such a character can effectively mitigate the disparity between Arcane and Divine necromancy to the Channel Energy (Negative, Heal/Damage burst) ability and the +1 HP/HD from Desecrate albeit the Arcane caster has access to Blood Money which allows him to churn out undead without requiring an Onyx mine and a more offensive spell list to back up his necromancy shenanigans.
If needed, Forge Ring => Ring of Inner Fortitude, Major (cost to make 21k) nets him about 2k gp value in Onyx saved per casting combo, if more is needed he just takes more str damage.
Largest drawback of course is that the abhorred party healer can't really patch you up in a pinch unless he has a negative energy spell available.
Furthermore; Experimental Spellcaster for Undeath Word of Power; has there been any more information been made available regarding the creation of variant undead? Since this is a different effect from Animate Dead, most of the boni mentioned above won't apply, so it is yet another bucket to add to right?
Any thoughts on a Summoner(Spirit Summoner archetype) with the Bones spirit?
Eidolon with Undead Appearance + pet undead creatures such as Bloody Skeletons or Fast Zombies. I haven't fully fleshed out my concept but I'm leaning heavily towards playing one and would love some advice on how best to go about making one.
What are a players options for transporting Undead without alerting the local constables? Druids/Rangers/Hunters can cast carry companion as a second level spell, what can Necromancers do?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A bag of holding usually works, though a portable hole has a much larger volume.
Using illusions (e.g., disguise other) to hide your undead minions in plain sight as not-un-dead minions might also work. Invisibility also works, but you might need to develop long-term invisibility spells.
"Don't bring your bones to town, son." Keep them away from public sight (move them at night, or in rain/fog, or underwater/underground.)
Teleport with them from point to point instead of entering constable-viewed space.
Talk with the local law enforcement about licenses for transporting undead.
Tell the undead not to move and tell observers that you're just taking all these coffins to a proper burial ground. (Or, if they're animal bones, that you've got a bunch of industrial raw material you're talking to the grinders.)