What's with the big weapons?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Currently on the front page of the rules forum there are three conversations about wielding oversize weapons, and that's not unusual. There seem to be a significant number of players with a strong desire to swing enormous weapons.

Why do so many people want oversize weapons so badly?

More words:

Understanding
There are lots of other recurring questions along the lines of "How can I make this work?" or "I wish this worked better." For most of them, even if I don't happen to want the same thing, I understand the motivation. (e.g. sword and shield fighters, direct damage casters, heal/buff pacifists, agility based combatants, throwing experts, etc.) The oversize weapon chasers, however, I don't understand.

Realism
A historical greatsword is a really big weapon! Up to six feet in length and made of solid steel. Likewise various polearms, axes, and clubs that appear in the Pathfinder weapons list are modeled after big real-world weapons that push the envelope of human ability to wield. It doesn't seem plausible that a character, especially a first level character, would wield a weapon larger than thousands of years of human history have produced.

Weapons of the gods?
There are myths and legends about weapons too big and heavy for mortals to wield, Thor's hammer Mjölnir is perhaps the most well known example, but even Mjölnir had the ability to change size and become "so small that it could be carried inside his tunic." If requests for oversize weapons were linked with high level characters, possibly as capstone (20th level) abilities for melee character of godlike power, perhaps I would understand. But, typically, requests for oversize weapons are for first level characters.


If I had to guess, it's related to needing more dakka.

Maybe Final Fantasy is to blame, or any other of those games that have oversized not-quite-so-novelty weaponry.

The Exchange

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Fantasy as a whole is going into unusable massive weapons being easily wielded and wearing armor that would not protect or be too cumbersome to move in


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Final Fantasy
Anime
Warhammer (have you seen their armour designs?)
Rob Liefeld (esp in the 90's)

Mind you, the chainmail bikini has been around since Robert E. Howard wrote Conan, at least.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:

Final Fantasy

Anime
Warhammer (have you seen their armour designs?)
Rob Liefeld (esp in the 90's)

It's largely been a visual thing. Anime, cartoons, some movies, miniatures. They look cool, even if impractical. For miniatures, partly because big is easier to do and more distinctive.

I don't think written fantasy has really gone in that direction. Sometimes the cover art does, even though it doesn't match the descriptions in the story.

darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Mind you, the chainmail bikini has been around since Robert E. Howard wrote Conan, at least.

Source? It's possible, but I don't remember it. The archetypal Red Sonja chainmail bikini was a Marvel Comics creation of the 70s.


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Might be mixing up the bikini with Vallejo-inspired reprinted covers.


I'd reckon it's just another case of forum group mind. You'll have someone bring up a topic and that'll get other people thinking along similar lines. And now you've got a dozen people all thinking and talking about roughly the same topic but coming at it from slightly different angles. Those discussions will expand and spin off other sub-discussions. Then eventually, this cloud of conversation will reach enough of a critical mass that someone comes along and starts a thread that says, "Gee, a lot of people have been talking about X, lately. What's the deal with that?"

Give it a couple of weeks and it'll be different thing.


TV Tropes suggests that Red Sonja was the archetypal example of the item in question.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Because some folks like it.

Because for some folks "cool factor" trumps "but history" and they think oversized weapons are cool.

Because a bigger weapon = bigger damage.

Because some of their favorite characters use oversized weapons.


If the weapons are REALLY big... armour has to be similarly huge to protect. A chainmail bikini won't do measurably worse against a Reaver Daiklaive than a realistic suit of full plate.


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Because it's a difficult thing to do for Warrior McBigHuge to do.

Unlike Wizard McSmallTiny with his wizard levels flying around as a dragon and or bending space-time itself. Or turning himself into a giant able able to use your "really big" greatsword as a toothpick.


The chainmail bikini is a different, if closely related issue. Here's my favorite article on the subject of The Chainmail Bikini


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I'll say it because no one else seems to want to...

Compensation! They are compensating for some thing!

HEE! HEE! HEE!


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BECAUSE A MAN DOESN'T USE THE MOST PRACTICAL WEAPON, HE USES THE MOST AWESOME!

And these characters aren't conscripted soldiers or whatever. They're adventurers. They're oddballs that, rather than get a real job, throw themselves into unexplored ruins to gather ancient treasure and fight ancient evils. Adventurers (And PCs) are, by their very nature, unusual. Sometimes, this means wielding a gigantic sword while other times it means being a kung-fu monkey druid.

So, in short, it's because they can.

Scarab Sages

selunatic2397 wrote:

I'll say it because no one else seems to want to...

Compensation! They are compensating for some thing!

HEE! HEE! HEE!

Because size does matter. Both with weapons and with other things....


Darn Right!!!


thejeff wrote:


I don't think written fantasy has really gone in that direction. Sometimes the cover art does, even though it doesn't match the descriptions in the story.

The Knights Terra in the Codex Alera books do, but they use earth magic to give themselves super-strength. Big and smashy is their whole schtick. (Though they're also pretty much background characters. Most of the characters in the books fight with a gladius or a bow.)


Ok, here's why:

People like to ape iconic fantasy characters of every kind. Some of those have such weapons.

Foes have the weapons, so sometimes it fits your character's backstory to use them. There's stuff in the race entries about giants enslaving people, for example.

Wielding a bigger weapon than anybody else can is a symbol of your power and your party role. It's one of those things that marks you as being different from the faceless guards you mow down.

Pathfinder characters seem like they could probably wield bigger weapons than real people. They have an alarming tendency to be stronger than horses, magically enhanced on top of that and outrageously talented at waving chunks of metal.

In mechanical terms it gives a smashy character more of what they want most and it's not inherently overpowered if they pay somehow.

You can do damn near anything else and more options are good.


Blueluck wrote:
Why do so many people want oversize weapons so badly?

Anime. Final Fantasy. One of the threads even said "to be like Cloud". Pretty obvious.

Grand Lodge

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They want to have sex with their mothers?

Wait, it's something else Freud said!

Um, try the cocaine?


Mortuum wrote:
People like to ape iconic fantasy characters of every kind. Some of those have such weapons.

There's my answer, I think. People want to mimic iconic characters I'm unfamiliar with. I've never played Final Fantasy, didn't know who Cloud was until I looked him up, watch little anime (and even that isn't fantasy anime), and rarely read comic books (never fantasy comics). So, I'm simply out of the loop on big-weapon role models.

Now I only wonder when the trend started.


Its a fantasy game not real, and they want their heroes to be fantastic and super human.


God forbid we make vital strike worth having... see I tied in another thread topic that is popular right now


Blueluck wrote:
There's my answer, I think.

It's a significant part of it, to be sure, but really there is no one answer. It's important to understand that there are game mechanic reasons for wanting such a thing and that Cloud and his ilk were designed that way for reasons. People want the weapons for the same reason cloud has them, not only because he has them.


selunatic2397 wrote:

I'll say it because no one else seems to want to...

Compensation! They are compensating for some thing!

HEE! HEE! HEE!

Well darn, somebody beat me to it.

Posting my link anyway.

It's because they're just like the Engineer


the apeal of wielding somthing difrent and more efective is great overall larger weapons should do more damage but even so would make it harder to hit so the overall efectiveness is not so good! this is why i turned away from it and became a strong magus.

it is david who won vs goliath because he was smarter!! :-) and a Magus is pritty smart!! but stil strong!!


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They want a bigger weapon to be different, _just like_ "x iconic character"?


The fact that paizo's iconic barbariab canonically uses an oversized weapon certainly isn't discouraging them.


Arssanguinus wrote:
They want a bigger weapon to be different, _just like_ "x iconic character"?

You act as if you've never met a teenager.


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Because, much like bowties, giant weapons are just cool.
It's a desire to play a character that not only has enough strenght to lift that sword, but also has the skill to use it as effectively as a lesser man would use a normal sword.

Silver Crusade

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Darkflame wrote:

the apeal of wielding somthing difrent and more efective is great overall larger weapons should do more damage but even so would make it harder to hit so the overall efectiveness is not so good! this is why i turned away from it and became a strong magus.

it is david who won vs goliath because he was smarter!! :-) and a Magus is pritty smart!! but stil strong!!

Don't forget, David took Goliath's sword and used it to chop his head off (1 Samuel 17:51).

My point? EVEN GOD APPROVES OF OVERSIZED WEAPONS!


Arssanguinus wrote:
They want a bigger weapon to be different from the normal fighters of Golarion, _just like_ "x iconic character" in a different bedia?

Fixed that for you. :P


Not only did David use Goliath's sword to chop off his head, later on when he fled from Jerusalem he stopped at where the sword was kept and took it to use as his own for some time. (I don't know when- if ever- he replaced it with a sword made for a normal man.)

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Removed an inappropriate post.

Dark Archive

I'd imagine a good number of people who play Pathfinder are Americans (hell, everything's in Feet and Pounds!).

And Americans have been raised on the concept of BIGGER IS BETTER.


Seranov wrote:

I'd imagine a good number of people who play Pathfinder are Americans (hell, everything's in Feet and Pounds!).

And Americans have been raised on the concept of BIGGER IS BETTER.

Speaking as an American, that is a bit generalized. I agree the game is in feet and pounds, and that us stupid Americans should have switched to the metric a LONG time ago. But the idea of bigger is better isn't as universal as it may seem or at least as it was.

In a world where swords and great-swords are common, they lose their romantic/cool factor. In the media swords have always been cool. The more out of place in the future, the better; thus drawing attention, and thus the cool factor. Example: Highlander series; modern day sword use=very cool.
Bigger is to be noticed more. When everyone and their uncle can wield a sword it losses its romantic nature and ideology. So the simple solution is to just make it bigger. Keeps the same general form and method of use, probably requiring EVEN more skill and strength to use, but is different, thus cool. Another way to look at it is the old plays in Greece. They wore large masks/helmets to make their heads bigger so they would be noticed from further distances.

So in short bigger+ideal=noticeable=cool. That is how things just are.

Now others could make it where they don't care about the romance of the sword icon. In this case: unique=noticeable=cool


Because it is hard for people to see all the details an artist puts into making a weapon if it is even smaller then the character, so instead, they basically make the weapon into its own character


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the pathfinder Designers were also american

everything is in feet and pounds

excess of mass is an advantage, due to both reach, and strength bonuses, this is before you factor size bonuses.

in fact, the Dexterity and Attack bonuses of being smaller were deliberately staggered in comparison to the strength and natural armor bonuses of growing larger. specifically so that bigger meant better.

light weapons would actually be useful once we incorporate some kind of weapon speed rules.

where a dagger would get more attacks per round than a greatsword

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