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(btw KBrewer this concept is friggin genius)
page 180 last paragraph under "Attacks of Opportunity" quote "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."
drat.
well i got to thinking. would you all think a sturdy (darkwood/cold iron) longspear could be used to grant a +2 bonus to a running high jump?
i am intrigued by the possibilities of the reach cleric of irori, and i didn't see in the guide the weighing of options that improved unarmed strike opens up both itself and as a prerequisite. this may be the 'monk' i have been looking for...
You know what I love about Clerics and Reach weapons? Tripping the enemy. Provided the enemy does not have a reach of 10' you can use an AoO to trip without worrying about an AoO in return.
- Gauss
I just started a game with a cleric of Calistria. She's specializing in whip, so the idea of a "reach cleric" caught my eye.
She's dex based, so weapon finesse and agile maneuvers are already manditory.
To incorporate your attack of opportunity feature-- she'll need combat maneuvers and to build up to improved whip mastery, right?
And she's chaotic good, but Calistria is CN-- so I'd have to get my GM to houserule that she can summon CG creatures, right?
So other than complete feat starvation, and needing a houserule for summoning... would my cleric work as a reach cleric?
I like the concept a lot. Even at second level I'm enjoying standing back 15' and having the choice of spellcasting or attacking without provoking.
SmiloDan: UE p115 Benevolent Armor property for +2000gp. The Benevolent Weapon property is more expensive at +1 and affects attack rolls while the armor property affects AC.
Yes, Bodyguard only works with adjacent allies. That is not a problem. Stand behind the fighter with your longspear, use Bodyguard and attack through him (yes, soft cover applies).
Alternately, if the target is large stand just to the left (or right) and behind him and you wont be attacking through soft cover.
- Gauss
But can you use Bodyguard to take AoOs through cover? I would assume no.
Redward:
Bodyguard does not state you have to threaten the enemy. It states you have to be adjacent to your ally.
Normal AoO's cannot be taken through cover. I did not state that you could.
- Gauss
I'm not sure we're in disagreement, I was just trying to clarify.
If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action
Normal: Aid another is a standard action.
Bodyguard is only changing the action to immediate. You still need to be able to attack the enemy to use it, and I assume you can't take the attack of opportunity through cover.
Aid Another does not require an AoO, it only requires that you threaten.
So applying Aid Another to Bodyguard:
Question 1: Do you threaten the enemy through cover? Yes
Question 2: Are you adjacent to your ally? Yes
Question 3: Do you have an AoO available? Yes.
This is not an AoO on the enemy through cover, it is an AoO to aid your ally. You can Aid your Ally normally through cover.
- Gauss
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I think mentioning the Transformative longspear might be a good idea. One of the problems you mention with the Reach Cleric is that it doesn't do to well during mop-up time after combat.
Having a transformative longspear allows you to take reach away from your weapon when you no longer need it (a spear is basically the same as a longspear, but without reach), increasing your flexibility when your best option is full-attacking a creature.
Problem with Transformative is that it takes a standard action to use and costs 10,000gp. A backup weapon is just as good or better for that.
- Gauss
Aid Another does not require an AoO, it only requires that you threaten.
So applying Aid Another to Bodyguard:
Question 1: Do you threaten the enemy through cover? Yes
Question 2: Are you adjacent to your ally? Yes
Question 3: Do you have an AoO available? Yes.This is not an AoO on the enemy through cover, it is an AoO to aid your ally. You can Aid your Ally normally through cover.
- Gauss
And I would find that there's nothing in the Bodyguard Feat to change the standing rule for AoOs:
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.
But, as usual, I'm derailing.
Although cover is the biggest problem I see with this build overall. If your party isn't planning their actions appropriately, it will be very hard to get a lot of AoOs once the frontliners are in melee.
ETA:
I'm still using this as a guideline towards building my next character, so thanks very much!
An int score of 7, 8, and 9 are all functionally the same for a Cleric in terms of skill points. They will always get base 1 SP+Favored class bonus (if they take SP using fcb). Therefor a cleric should always take a 7 instead of an 8 or 9.
You are absolutely correct Redward, you cannot execute an Attack of Opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you. Its a good thing the Bodyguard feat and Aid Another is not attacking an opponent. :)
Summary: yes, you can aid another against a target that has cover relative to you and that you threaten. Yes, you can use an AoO to benefit an ally you are adjacent to if you threaten a target that has cover relative to you. Why? Because you are not making an AoO against that target. You are making an AoO to Aid Another. A different thing entirely.
- Gauss
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I used to have longspear-using scout in 3.5, and he used spiked gauntlets as his non-reach weapon. Can you use spiked gauntlets and still do the somatic business when casting divine spells?
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I'm currently playing a multiclass Cavalier/Cleric. I figured since a lance is one-handed while mounted, I could steer with my knees and cast spells with the other hand.
I failed to take AoO's into account, but I have noticed that I'm incredibly starved for what to spend my standard action on, so I'm definitely interested in what I see.
Personally, I agree with the current sentiment that Irori would be a decent choice for a deity. The Enlarge Person from the Strength domain would be very useful. Irori also has the Rune domain-- the ability to create a blast rune in "an adjacent square" becomes much more useful when you wield a reach weapon.
Great guide! May I suggest lvl 1 dip as sohei monk? Net gain is+2 ref and several feats worth of abilities. Martial weapons, combat reflexes, skill focus (mechanically anyway) in perception and acrobatics, and improved unarmed strike for when the enemy slips under your weapon reach. Then there is the plus one to initiative, and two extra skill points. All you lose is 1 caster level... Just a thought.
I'm going to try to make an eldritch knight like this. CG Elf Destined Sorcerer 6/Cavalier 1/Eldritch Knight X. So far, just Sorcerer 4 with Combat Reflexes and Toughness.
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question:
does a reach cleric of irori 'double threaten'?
this question was answered upthread as concerning a single foe.
what about if there are multiple foes? can i make opportunity attacks with both my roundhouse (unarmed strike) and my longspear (with reach)?
ps.
if yes,
would i threaten 21 squares...
0XXX0
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
0XXX0
...or 25 squares?
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
or this?
/XXX\
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
\XXX/
with the slashes representing a threatened 'boundary' rather than a 'square' which triggers only if crossed?
pss.
if no, i propose the new feat:
Polearm Style (Combat)
Requirement: Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: While wielding a weapon with reach, you are considered to threaten your own square, all squares adjacent to you, and all squares out to your weapon's reach simultaneously.
Since you are giving up on CHA anyway, why not dump it entirely in favor of the Divine Strategist archetype?
This way, you can also free up/delay acquiring Improved Initiative, and addition of adding INT to flanking and AoO's seems quite useful.
The only major drawback i see here is loss of the second Domain...
How bad of a loss is that? is this a decent archetype for this kind of build?
Free: attacks of opp based on wis to hit
Immediate: ignore melle or ranged attack
Ferveurent Action: Cast a spell (lev -1) or extra attack
Move: Quick Channel
Standard Action: cast a spell or attack once
You can only have 1 swift or immediate action a turn, so Fervor Inquisition and Love sub-domain wouldn't both work on the same turn. Of course, you could only use Fervor once per day anyway.
Per the SRD:
Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
Power Attack might not be valuable as the penalty to hit will be far more than a med bab class with MAD and no class bonuses to hit (favored enemy, weapon training, rage) can wear.
Clerics are only MAD if you build them that way.
And clerics have bonuses falling out of their ears. It's just that as with any casting class it requires at least a round of preptime assuming you are starting out with 0 buffs. Spells are your primary class feature and should be used. Given the action economy that this build encourages that should not be a problem.
Great guide, makes me want to play one! Where'd you get the pictures? they really make the guide stand out. Minor quibble - in the section on backup weapons, you say the benefit of a light weapon is that you can use it in a grapple. Pathfinder changed it so that you can attack with a light or a one-handed weapon in a grapple.
My GM is asking me a swift action to change my weapon from two-handed held to one-handed in order to cast. That makes this build useless to me.
Is there an official clarification of this anywhere?
There is no official clarification but James Jacobs (paizo staff, not official clarification) suggests/uses a Free action.
- Gauss
So I have a not very good argument to try to convince my GM. I don't think that if is not in a FAQ he will listen. Snif
I am playing a master summoner (with 18 str) so I have the same problem: what to do with the standard. We are low level so melee strike is always a tempting option but every other turn I need to cast something.
My GM ask me to use a swift action to change the longspear to one hand (in that moment I stop threatening), I cast with a standard and then I have to use a move to ready again the longspear. Many times It still deserves the effort but...
Ask him what kind of action it would be to drop your weapon. If he has trouble, point out in the rules where it says that doing so is a free action. Ask him how letting go with one hand takes more time than letting go with two hands. But don't expect much, since cranky GMs will be cranky GMs. Similarly, as long as you've got a BAB of +1, there's no reason why you can't at least combine switching from 1 hand to 2 as part of a move action, just like drawing a weapon. But, there's no official ruling as yet, so good luck.
I've completed the long over-due revising of the Reach Cleric Guide. I want to thank all the people so far that have helped out with it, both in support and in fixes/suggestions/etc. The improvements:
The race section was greatly expanded to include Featured and Unusual Races from the Advanced Race Guide.
Additional Metamagic options were added as qualifiers for Spell Perfection.
Dodge-Mobility added to the feat section.
Erastil added as a deity to consider, with Fur/Feather+Growth subdomains listed as options.
Ring of Counterspells, Eyes of the Eagle, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, and Dusty Rose Ioun Stone added to the suggested items.
Grace added in the spells section.
Stand Still feat fixed.
Rules issue with multiple-AoO fixed.
Int Score recommendations fixed.
Fixed a rules issue with the Liberation domain's ability.
Modified the wording on Combat Reflexes after more field testing.
----------------
Some additional items that I looked over and didn't include:
Big Game Hunter: I couldn't find a reference to this as a Cleric Option. The only thing I found with this was an option for Barbarians.
Rice Runner Trait: I didn't end up expanding the guide to include traits. Maybe in the next version.
Guided Property on a weapon: I couldn't find any reference to it.
Spiked Gauntlets. I know a few commenters went through the trouble of figuring out how to threaten the 5-foot range as well as the spear's 10-foot range. The thing is, I don't think it's terribly relevant. What circumstances have to occur in battle before you get the 5-foot AoO? About the only thing I can think of is Casting + moving right next to an enemy archer/caster (if you're going to attack them, wouldn't you attack 10-foot away so you can use your superior weapon?) It seems to me that anything that'd be within 5 foot of you wouldn't be doing something that would provoke AoO.
Sheyln as a Deity: Sorry, but this deity is Neutral Good. That gives up all the benefits of Sacred Summons.
Anyway, again, thanks to everyone that has helped me improve the Reach Cleric Guide - and I hope it's been a good contribution to the Pathfinder Community! :-)
The Guided Weapon property is in a 3.5 era adventure path (Crimson Throne: A History of Ashes).
Kinda surprised Bodyguard isn't in your list of feats. It is ideal for a reach cleric to help boost the guy standing next to him. Since Combat Reflexes is so high on the list might as well add Bodyguard too.
- Gauss
What about a two hands evangelist? Is it possible?
And the half-elf deserves much more love... think about the almighty Paragon Surge...
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What about a two hands evangelist? Is it possible?
I've been playing a Reach Cleric of the Evangelist archetype in PFS play. This build works very well. This PC usually casts a spell (or starts Inspire Courage) for her Standard Action, and then inflicts considerable martial damage with AoOs. This approach to enhanced action efficiency works, and works well.
Tark wrote a great essay, "On Building a Balanced Pathfinder Group"
My Reach Cleric build is, coincidentally, very similar to Tark's sample evangelist cleric, 'Tusky McDancy'. Everything Tark says about this build is true. The one drawback to worshiping Shelyn is lack of Sacred Summons. In return you get free Glaive proficiency. Lack of Sacred Summons sometimes hurts, but usually not badly. My adaptation is to use Summons spells when the foe uses tactics such that no AoOs will be forthcoming. One can usually tell in advance.
This PC consistently performs well in a variety of situations. She stolidly fills the 'Support Cleric' role, inflicts nearly as much martial damage as a Barbarian ( because of multiple iterative AoOs), and exerts substantial battlefield control. After she gets a few 25 HP AoOs, foes become quite careful where they move. This provides a useful screen for ranged PCs. It really helps your team when, in one early round of combat, your 5th level PC casts an effective spell, inflicts 60+ HP melee damage on multiple foes, and renders the foe unwilling to approach the squishy casters and archers standing in your shadow.
One trick that especially helps vs. Large foes is to Enlarge Person yourself. This yields an enormous 50' diameter zone of control in which foes must step lightly else face more AoOs.
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I know you've probably already considered this for the next version, but the Summon Good Monster from Champions of Purity completely changes the dynamics of Sacred Summons. Suddenly, NG clerics go from zero to hero with a wealth of options. Granted, having to spend another feat to make it work is tough considering how feat starved this build is, but it seems like it would be worth it.
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Every now and then I feel the urge to look stuff up, so here's a list of gods that grant various reach weapons as their Favored Weapons.
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Any – Longspear
Shelyn –NG – beauty, art, love, music – Air, Charm, Good, Luck, Protection – Glaive (core)
Belial – LE – adultery, deception, desire – Charm, Destruction, Evil, Law – Ranseur (ISWG, Book of the Damned 1)
Baphomet – CE – beasts, labyrinths, minotaurs – Animal, Chaos, Evil, Strength – Glaive (ISWG, Book of the Damned 2)
Crocell – LE – hidden waters, illusion, language – Evil, Knowledge, Law, Water – Glaive (Book of the Damned 1)
Eligos – LE – flight, soldiers, watchfulness – Air, Evil, Law, Travel – Lance (Book of the Damned 1)
Yan-gant-y-tan – LE – hellspawn, misdirection, night – Darkness, Evil, Law, Weather – Guisarme (Book of the Damned 1)
Xoveron – CE – gargoyles, gluttony, ruin – Chaos, Earth, Evil, Strength – Ranseur (Book of the Damned 2)
Geon – NE – nightmares, quartering, trampling – Air, Evil, Fire, Travel – Lance (Book of the Damned 3)
Zelishkar – NE – arson, burning alive, cremation – Animal, Evil, Fire, War – Ranseur (Book of the Damned 3)
Neshen – LG – penitence, repentance, suffering – Good, Law, Liberation, Strength – Ranseur (Chronicles of the Righteous)
Fumeiyoshi - NE - dishonor, envy, graves, undead - Death, Destruction, Evil, Repose, War - Naginata (Dragon Empires Gazetteer)
There are a couple (Sivanah, Ashava) who offer the Bladed Scarf, but the latest printings on that weapon have removed the reach property from it. Also a few Whip options, but that doesn't threaten, so no joy.
Chevat; have only read the guide, not this thread.
Secondary Weapon - Close Quarters
You might want a weapon for when you don't have space to take advantage of a reach weapon. You have two options: One-Handed, or Light. A One-Handed weapon has the advantage that you can wield it in both hands to get strength-and-a-half bonus on damage. Light has the advantage that it can be used in a grapple. Either way, the number of situations where you'll need it is pretty minor, so don't spend more than pocket change.
I believe you can use any weapon that is not two-handed in grapple in Pathfinder.
Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.
Spring Attack is a feat that I think deserves mentioned for any reach fighter. If a foe has moved next to you, you can use Spring Attack to make a single attack and then move away to where he has to trigger an AoO to reach you. The prerequisites are not that bad either.
Enlarge (Strength domain) or more likely Righteous Might has the nice effect of increasing your reach - pretty much a must at higher levels when many, many creatures will out-reach you. However, even when Large you are likely to get out-reached a lot at higher levels. The whole concept of this build is a stopgap measure, a way to make the transition from physical attacker to pure spellcaster easier - sooner or later physical attack will lose much of their shine however you do.
It is very feat intensive but making a lunge, whirlwind attack build is a nice trick.
Dotting for later.
First very thanks to Magda :D
Second is a shame you can't threaten squares AND flank. I know, threatening is more important but it would be very nice to flank.
Third. What about charging enemies? I don't remember if longspears, glaives, etc. do extra damage to chargers.
I'm trying a variant of this in 3.5. I'm squeezing in a divine feat (Divine Vigor: +10 feet of speed and +2 hp/HD for 1 minute/Cha mod), a reserve feat (Fiery Burst: 10 foot fireball doing 1d6/spell level), and a domain feat (Strength Devotion: overcome hardness and DR/adamantine for 1 minute/day, gain scaling slam attack).
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I don't remember if longspears, glaives, etc. do extra damage to chargers.
They can. One must spend a standard action to Brace versus Charge, and the charger must rush you. If that occurs, you FIRST roll an attack for DOUBLE DAMAGE when the charger enters your farthest threatened square. THEN you probably roll an AoO when the charger moves one square closer. That's possible 3x damage versus charging foe. That's why pikes could stop cavalry.
First off, would wearing spiked armor allow me to threaten both melee and reach range? If not, what other things could I use for that effect?
That might work (GM call, I think), but I must ask ,"Why?" In theory it seems like this should be important. In practice, it's never mattered to any of my reach-weapon wielding PCs. Just 5' step and whack something.
Secondly, what would you think of a 1-level dip into Holy Vindicator? In exchange for a caster level, I'd get a bonus to my AC by spending a channel (thanks to the fact that a HV must only be wearing his shield, not wielding it), better BAB and weapon proficiencies, and (correct me if I'm wrong) standard channel progression. What's not to like about that?And lastly, is it worth it to spend a feat on Exotic Weapon Prof: Fauchard for the 18-20 crit range on a reach weapon?
I'd say it's totally not worth losing the caster level. If you're going to dip, why not dip Barbarian, Ranger, or fighter? Honestly, though, remaining cleric all the way is probably more effective, especially at higher level. YMMV.
Also, I'd say the better weapon is NOT worth a feat. It's about an extra 10% damage. You'd do better with other feats. YMMV.
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How does this compare to an archer cleric (especially one that can take AoO with a bow)?
A reach cleric is a clobbering machine right out of the gate at 1st level. Bow clerics take a long time to get going due to glacial feat acquisition.
Reach clerics get better when they get bigger; bow clerics get worse.
Bows are expensive; polearms are cheap.
Power Attack delivers more bang than Deadly Aim.
Archer clerics have greater range, but don't control the battlefield.
All the core feats and spells a reach cleric utilizes most are in the CRB; an effective archer cleric requires material from other sources you may not own and/or the GM allow.
Hey guys I had a reach cleric before and am thinking about remaking one, but would a warpriest work better or just a regular cleric?
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Here's my PFS Reach Cleric if anyone is interested (click on the avatar's name).
So far it's been very good, but really depends a lot on just how tactical a game is run. And lately I have been running with a lot of lower level players, so I have been taking a bit of a back seat when I can to let them enjoy it more.