I'm playing one in a 3.5 game (ugh) and it's been VERY effective. Just level 2, but I'm out performing the melee rogue (newbie) and garrote specialist rangery 3pp PC. There is also an archer rogue/fighter and a dread necromancer in the party. My cleric worships Kord and has the Luck and Strength domains. So very tanky.
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My Reach Cleric's been able to spit out damage close to our Barbarian through self-buffs. Saved the party from a TPK once said barbarian became a grease spot at the bottom of a cliff.
The Strength Domain spells are huge for a reach cleric, especially Enlarge Person. The damage increase alone is wonderful.
My experience has been similar, playing a reach cleric levels 1-5 in a 3.5 setting. Despite rolling poorly on stats (8 point build equivalent) my reach cleric has been exceedingly effective. The greatsword-wielding half-orc fighter with fantastic stat die rolls (60+ point build equivalent) does more damage, but no one else even comes close.
I saw the same phenomenon playing a PFS reach cleric to retirement. The keys to excellent performance are 1) buffing before the fight starts, and 2) Good tactical positioning by your entire team.
I'm convinced that the Reach Cleric build is so strong that playing with a handicap will help share the glory. Rather like a summoner, a wizard, and other Tier I classes.
We rolled 4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest, so I have 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 15 Wis, 13 Cha. What is that? 32 point? Wowza!!!!
I went human.
1. Combat Reflexes
1. Divine Vigor (spend turn attempt and get +2 hp/HD & +10 speed)
The plan:
3. Fiery Burst (mini supernatural fireballs)
6. Power Attack or Strength Devotion or Touch of Heaing
9. Quicken Spell
12. Luck Devotion
15. Improved Counterspell
18. Strength Devotion or Power Attack
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I'm playing in a 25pt Reign of Winter campaign; the character I made is an over-the-top, min/maxed 2hPA human reach-cleric of Densa with a Dwarven Longhammer. Single fighter level dip at 1st. Blonde bimbo with a head full of rocks and a bandoleer full of Enlarge potions.
It's nice having a move of 40 in heavy armor in snow.
Nice, but I see no Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell.We rolled 4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest, so I have 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 15 Wis, 13 Cha. What is that? 32 point? Wowza!!!!
I went human.
1. Combat Reflexes
1. Divine Vigor (spend turn attempt and get +2 hp/HD & +10 speed)The plan:
3. Fiery Burst (mini supernatural fireballs)
6. Power Attack or Strength Devotion or Touch of Heaing
9. Quicken Spell
12. Luck Devotion
15. Improved Counterspell
18. Strength Devotion or Power Attack
I might be able to squeeze those in at levels 12, 15, and/or 18.
I really can't wait for Quickened Divine Favors at 9th. I plan on boosting Wisdom at 4th, Charisma at 8th, and Wisdom at 12, 16, and 20.
My old druid used improved counterspelling a lot--trading flame strikes for fireballs in one infamous battle against rakshasas. Worked really well. But I'll see how the campaign goes.
I don't want to re-train into Cloistered Cleric. I'm the tank, and healer--if necessary. I'll let the others be the brains. :-P
But I'll check out those PrCs. What books are they in?
To the person who mentioned using the warpriest as a reach cleric:
From personal experience, I can say that it's really effective, and a whole lot of fun! As written in the most recent revision, they basically have Quicken Spell some of their most commonly used spells from fervor, which lets you get 2 buffs up from level 2. Those bonus feats also let you step up your martial game, and even get some debuffing going on. All the bonus feats you get let you buy Enforcer and the feats needed to make a nasty intimidate set up. Stacked with a cruel weapon, you can give your enemies a -4 to their saving throws, which lets you do a little bad touching with bestow curse or blindness/deafness as well and not need a huge WIS. Instrument of Agony was a trick I used a lot in my playtest to give one enemy the nauseated, shaken, and sickened condition while unleashing a Bestow Curse held in my spellstoring weapon. It was quite effective!
And if your chosen weapon is the reach weapon, those AoOs are at full BAB--and buffed! Flippin' Sweet!
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As a word of caution - careful about playing a reach character in PFS. It can be like herding cats to get people to use good tatics (delay, readying, ect).
Ok I'm enlarged with combat reflexes, the mindless undead need to come through me.
player 2 - I CHARGE!
*facepalm*
Mmmm....PITA. Oh, wait! ;-)
Actually, that sounds really cool! Are there any good reach weapons with a high threat range, like 19-20, or even 18-20?
Can you use Pushing Assault with an AoO? Seems like you can!
Oh, pushing assault looks fun! when mixed with dazing assault, you don't even need to reset you position after an AoO! just AoO them, push them away, and the daze cancels the rest of their turn.
*edit* a bardiche is a martial 19-20 weapon, so it's still viable for the warpriest or cleric with a dip in fighter without EWP requirements.
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Really I don't see much point in blowing a feat when a longspear is more than sufficient.
Pushing Assault moves your opponent back 10 feet on a crit, and a keen fauchard crits on 15-20, so it can eliminate 5 foot steps just to re-position, which provokes more AoOs. :-)
But longspears are very good simple weapons.
I think the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait for half-elves lets you select the fauchard.
Half elves certainly would get you the weapon proficiency, but a human could also just use their bonus feat for it. Either way, I'm all for becoming an impenetrable bastion against melee attacks. Hell, if you've got a dip in fighter, you can use armor spikes to threaten adjacent squares and run up next to casters and archers if enemies decide to become more ranged focused to deal with your reach.
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That's why I like the Travel Domain. +10 speed, and eventual short teleports. Both great for getting in position.
My only problem with dipping is loss of BAB. :-P My guy is Chaotic Good and most of the rest of the party seem to be Neutral Evil. Yikes!
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Anyone think Pushing Assault might work if you are using enlarge? Thinking that could be a real PITA for anyone to get through to you.
Pushing Assault is one of the very best martial feats in the game, and particularly suited to polearm-wielding barbarians (who, out of sensible armor-class considerations, would very much like to keep bad guys out of their full-attack range). As an added bonus, you can knock them off their charge lane on an AoO if they're going after someone other than you -- and cost them their turn if they've gone beyond 1x move while charging.
OK, I'll check them out.
I don't think I HAVE to attack my teammates. I can try to show them the error of their ways by kicking @$$ and taking XP. ;-) Or using Diplomacy.
My guy is leaning towards CN anyways....
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Heh. Heheh. My DM hates my Reach Cleric. The blade troll walks into the room while I'm enlarged. I get an AoO. From across the room. Teehee. Plus all the guys moving around the room hitting the corner of my reach, thus provoking, was making him seeth. Cause hooray for Reach with a reach weapon making a box, not a circle :D
Just looking at creating one, priest of Shelyn.
Might want to put more than a single reference to her. Like adding her name to the ones who give domains of Air, Charm, Good, Luck, Protection.
The glaive as a favored weapon is a nice ability. Even better when I noticed that Ultimate Combat added the feat Guided Hand which allows you to substitute Wisdom for Strength on the attack rolls.
Trying to decide if it is worth the two feats to start with Guided Hand (requires Channel Smite) in order to reduce the number of good attributes I need. At that point I would be giving up the Strength damage bonus (x1.5) but could then invest those points into Wisdom getting more spells at a higher DC and better to hit bonus.
Has anyone tried a human Shelyn reach cleric with Guided Hand? How did it work out?
I haven't tried it out but it also opens up the love subdomain for a personal sanctuary effect. I think it could be quite nice as it really increases your spellcasting option to have an 18 WIS. However you prolly still need 13 or 14 STR and DEX so that's something you need to consider. Also CR and PA are delayed till levels 3 and 5 which hurts a lot.
I'm looking at this for PFS so point buy. If doing this, the whole idea would be to dump Strength. That means there would be no Power Attack. Fortunately you could still get Combat Reflexes.
So I'm thinking something like:
Str 10, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 13
Human Cleric Shelyn
Channel Smite, Guided Hand
Glaive +4 d10
3rd level Combat Reflexes
5th level Selective Channel
Cleric Domain (Defense)
Cleric Domain (Luck) Granted Powers: You are infused with luck, and your mere presence can spread good fortune.
Deflection Aura (1 rounds, 1/day) (Su) 20'r aura grants +2 AC and +2 CMD
I'll have to look at the Love subdomain. When first looking at it the Defense subdomain of Protection seemed pretty sweet.
With this build you would put all ability increases into Wis, use items to pump Dex for higher AoO. I would need to review if the Selective Channel is worth the Charisma, otherwise could put those points into a 19 Wis or 14 Dex.
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Consider this stat array: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skip guided hand and use STR for both attack and damage. Pile on the buffs and become Clericzilla.
First, let's pretend +1 to hit is worth +2 damage, for simplicity.
With stat array A. Str 10, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 13 and Guided Hand your glaive attacks have +4 to hit for 1D10 damage. In theory, we could measure that attack ability as (1D10 + 2x4) = 13.5 HP attack
With stat array B. Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10 (+2 racial bonus not yet applied) your glaive attacks have +2 to hit for 1D10+3 damage. By the same metric, this is only a (1D10 + 3 + 2x2) = 12.5 HP attack.
So Option A is slightly better, at the cost of a feat. Give Power attack feat to Option B, at level 3, and compare.
Glaive Power Attack with stat array B. at +1 to hit for 1D10+6 damage. By the same metric, this is (1D10 + 6 + 1x2) = 13.5 HP attack.
The big difference comes when you DO hit. Option A. averages 5.5 HP damage on a successful hit, while option B. averages 11.5 HP damage on a successful hit. Also, Option B. gets one extra AoO through Combat Reflexes, which becomes especially important if one develops a habit of drinking Enlarge Person potions.
I think the 2:1 metric is not right in this case. I really doubt Option A., with a +3 better to hit, will really hit twice as often as Option B., who does twice as much damage on a hit.
Consider this stat array: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skip guided hand and use STR for both attack and damage. Pile on the buffs and become Clericzilla.
** spoiler omitted **
What would you think about a Pre-Racial array like: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10 Wis 16, Cha 10, and using both Guided Hand and Power Attack? Then you'd get both the damage boost and the accuracy boost, as well as keeping a decent DC for offensive spells, should you need it.
Inner Sea Gods has trait Opportune Slayer. It gives +2 trait bonus on damage rolls against those you hit with attacks of opportunity, but you must worship Lamashtu. Insane trait for Reach Clerics.
Consider this stat array: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skip guided hand and use STR for both attack and damage. Pile on the buffs and become Clericzilla.
** spoiler omitted **
Consider dumping Int to 7. The Int penalty to skill points is applied before the racial bonus you get from being human and before your favored class bonus. You're essentially only losing one skill point in dumping.
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Consider dumping Int to 7. The Int penalty ... only losing one skill point in dumping.Consider this stat array: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skip guided hand ...
I don't generally post dumped stat arrays. People can dump attributes if they wish. Sure, optimization favors dumping mechanically-useless attributes, but that's not always good role playing. Dump charisma, too, if that's your thing. Some people just don't like roleplaying idiots.
P.s. Magda dumped INT, and is a bit of an idiot. This sometimes interfered with RP. Lesson learned.
Consider dumping Int to 7. The Int penalty ... only losing one skill point in dumping.Consider this stat array: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skip guided hand ...
I don't generally post dumped stat arrays. People can dump attributes if they wish. Sure, optimization favors dumping mechanically-useless attributes, but that's not always good role playing. Dump charisma, too, if that's your thing. Some people just don't like roleplaying idiots.
P.s. Magda dumped INT, and is a bit of an idiot. This sometimes interfered with RP. Lesson learned.
You can call them idiots and say a 7 int is exceptionally stupid, but it isn't. If a 7 was exceptionally bad intelligence a 13 int would be exceptionally smart, but the truth is no one alters their roleplay for a 13 int or charisma because it's only a small increase, thus a 7 stat is completely under the radar.
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A 7 Int is a -2 ability modifier. The converse of that, the +2 modifier a 14 or 15 would have, I would consider smart, so I feel secure calling a 7 Int a little slow on the uptake.
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So I'm starting a WotR campaign with a cleric of Shelyn (verdict is still out on whether he'll be an evangelist archetype or not) and was wondering if it would be good to take the channel smite, guided hand combo at first level. I know that pushes combat reflexes back a bit to my 3rd level feat, but when we get our first mythic tiers around level 5/6 I'll be able to take mythic guided hand and do WIS to damage when using a glaive and make my cleric SAD.
I was thinking of scores STR:12, DEX:14, CON:12, INT:7, WIS:15 + 2, CHA:10
If I don't do the guided hand route, I'll be able to use those first few feats for combat reflexes and to get started down the superior summoning feat chain. What do you guys think?
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Here's my analysis of that exact question, a few posts above. Guided hand does not fare well.
Your addition of the Mythic tier at 5/6 changes things a bit. The ability to ALSO get WIS to damage, still for only one feat, is huge and hard to refuse. That makes Guided hand totally worthwhile.
I'd still go down the combat reflexes then summoning chain, but it's a close call. I've never played Mythic tiers, so I'm ignorant of how it works.
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So here's how mythic works. Once I get my first tier, it's basically added sugar on top of my build. So let me build out to level five:
STR:12, DEX:14, CON:12, INT:7, WIS:16, CHA:10 before +2 modifier
Deity: Shelyn
Domains: Love, Fate
1. Channel Smite, Guided Hand
3. Combat Reflexes
5. Toss up feat but the 2 candidates are summon good monster and power attack)
At 5th level, we start doing Mythic tiers and all of the mythic stuff gets added ON TOP OF my regular feats and abilities. Going the hierophant route my new mythic abilities will be
Divine Surge: Inspired Spell
Path Ability: Mighty Summons*
Mythic Feat: Guided Hand (Mythic)
* Mighty Summons: This is a pretty amazing thing to have. The player basically gets superior summons without having to take spell focus and augment summons. Sure they lose out on the +4 STR and CON to their summoned monsters, but I'd argue that's a small price to pay. At level 7 I'll probably take sacred summons to start casting as a standard action.
TBH, if I go the evangelist route, I may take combat reflexes and summon good monster at level 1, then channel smite and guided hand at 3 and 5 respectively so that I'll have something to do with my move actions at level 7 besides move.
So here's how mythic works. Once I get my first tier, it's basically added sugar on top of my build. So let me build out to level five:
STR:12, DEX:14, CON:12, INT:7, WIS:16, CHA:10 before +2 modifier
Deity: Shelyn
Domains: Love, Fate1. Channel Smite, Guided Hand
3. Combat Reflexes
5. Toss up feat but the 2 candidates are summon good monster and power attack)At 5th level, we start doing Mythic tiers and all of the mythic stuff gets added ON TOP OF my regular feats and abilities. Going the hierophant route my new mythic abilities will be
Divine Surge: Inspired Spell
Path Ability: Mighty Summons*
Mythic Feat: Guided Hand (Mythic)* Mighty Summons: This is a pretty amazing thing to have. The player basically gets superior summons without having to take spell focus and augment summons. Sure they lose out on the +4 STR and CON to their summoned monsters, but I'd argue that's a small price to pay. At level 7 I'll probably take sacred summons to start casting as a standard action.
TBH, if I go the evangelist route, I may take combat reflexes and summon good monster at level 1, then channel smite and guided hand at 3 and 5 respectively so that I'll have something to do with my move actions at level 7 besides move.
I'd wait until level 7 to start focusing on summons. The summon lists aren't too amazing on the good side until you get to Summon Monster IV, when you can start throwing out multiple lantern archons. Coincidentally, that is also around where clerics start to loose steam in comparison to Full BAB martials, due to delayed iterative attacks. I'd take Power attack at lvl 5 (make sure to use the lvl 4 stat up on Str), and Summon Good Monster at lvl 7.
Don't forget to take Mythic power attack and mythic combat reflexes!
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I'd wait until level 7 to start focusing on summons. The summon lists aren't too amazing on the good side until you get to Summon Monster IV, when you can start throwing out multiple lantern archons. Coincidentally, that is also around where clerics start to loose steam in comparison to Full BAB martials, due to delayed iterative attacks. I'd take Power attack at lvl 5 (make sure to use the lvl 4 stat up on Str), and Summon Good Monster at lvl 7.Don't forget to take Mythic power attack and mythic combat reflexes!
Even with Summon Good Monster? I saw a LOT of NG monsters on that list starting at level 1.
Even with Summon Good Monster? I saw a LOT of NG monsters on that list starting at level 1.
I'd wait until level 7 to start focusing on summons. The summon lists aren't too amazing on the good side until you get to Summon Monster IV, when you can start throwing out multiple lantern archons. Coincidentally, that is also around where clerics start to loose steam in comparison to Full BAB martials, due to delayed iterative attacks. I'd take Power attack at lvl 5 (make sure to use the lvl 4 stat up on Str), and Summon Good Monster at lvl 7.Don't forget to take Mythic power attack and mythic combat reflexes!
*takes a look as PFSRD*
Oh, look at that, I confused Summon Good Monsters with Sacred Summons. Yes, with summon good monster, you will have a bunch of options, but how many of them are worth the spell slot? Most of them are just animals with a celestial template added on. At that level, all it will give them some energy resist and a super low SR. The Smite that they get will give at best a +1 or 2 to damage.
Once you get into more fun creatures at summon monster 3, they start being worth the effort it takes to curate your creature card collection. Before then, they are little more than roadbumps. Depending on your group though, road bumps could be really useful to have, if you don't have a large front line presence. Otherwise, they might just get in the way.
What about Animal domain + Boon companion, gaining a animal companion with trip to assist in battlefield control?
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What about Animal domain + Boon companion, gaining a animal companion with trip to assist in battlefield control?
Animal Domain and Boon Companion is an excellent combination. Here's one optimized way to combine Animal Domain with reach tactics. Trip is certainly an option, and requires no feats to be effective. Reach Cleric is a very strong option, and Animal Domain can be a strong option. Be careful not to overshadow the other PCs.