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I've written a guide to a different style of Cleric that I haven't seen covered before: A Reach Cleric.
Suggestions and Improvements are welcome; I'm hoping it can get added to the "Guide to the Guides".
The Guide: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWctNG05X0JINm8
Ok that opened my eyes to a few new thoughts thankyou very much. I would like to see an archer cleric tested against the reach cleric but i'm fairly sure the action economy will still favor the reach cleric.
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Good stuff!
That Divine Interference feat was a real eye-opener. I hadn't noticed that one before!
Erastil, with the Plant (Growth, for the swift Enlarge self) and Animal (Fur, for the swift movement bonus / vision buff) might work well for this sort of build, and with Favored Weapon longbow, might even be able to whip out a bow for those encounters where he can't close to within longspear reach.
The reach cleric looks like it would synergize well with spells like command (flee, drop or fall), cause fear or burning disarm, since causing a foe to flee, or forcing it to have to stand up or attempt to retrieve a dropped weapon will all provoke an AoO.
Very nice. My cleric started using a longspear mainly because our other melee use non-reach weapons. The guide definitely gives me some food for thought.
Man, I like this build, I wonder if I could make it work with my current caster (Healing) cleric...
Thanks for all the support! I'm glad it's useful and people are getting something out of it.
Set - the problem with those spells is they're low-level save-or-sucks... not the forte of a Reach Cleric. Maybe in the early levels, but it probably wouldn't be very long before hitting a DC=13 Will Save would be too easy.
jlord - I would probably say "no", mostly because most caster clerics usually have low physical stats to support a high wisdom (though I have no idea how your build looks.) Maybe your GM would let you tweak your character to adjust stats and swap out a few feats for Power Attack and Combat Reflexes.
Just a word of warning, though - you might run into tactical obstacles when trying to both heal during battle and still get attacks of opportunity. You'll probably have to put more thought and planning on how you maneuver in battle - and work with your intended heal target (especially if they're another caster.)
KBrewer: This Guide is quite well put together. I haven't taken the time to review it in depth at present, but I might recommend attempting to make the guide more visually pleasing (perhaps with pictures). Formatting is key so that you're not reading nothing but blocks of text, which can make the eyes a bit weary. You're off to a very good start, though.
I would also recommend making a more in depth analysis of races; you've generally covered the basics, but many of the nonstandard races would work out quite well for this Cleric build.
Really like this build.
Maybe Big Game Hunter would be a better option than Death or Glory? or at least worth a mention.
It looks like a really fun build!
Do you think it would work well with other spellcasty tanks, like some alchemists, bards, druids, inquisitors, magi, oracles, paladins, and rangers? Maybe scarred witchdoctor witches?
KBrewer: This Guide is quite well put together. I haven't taken the time to review it in depth at present, but I might recommend attempting to make the guide more visually pleasing (perhaps with pictures). Formatting is key so that you're not reading nothing but blocks of text, which can make the eyes a bit weary. You're off to a very good start, though.
I would also recommend making a more in depth analysis of races; you've generally covered the basics, but many of the nonstandard races would work out quite well for this Cleric build.
Finally... finished spicing up the guide with some pictures.
Will be going over it the next few days with the additions people are requesting: races, alternative reach weapons, Big Game Hunter feat, etc.
Battle Oracle? You gain loads and lose little.
Damn, I forgot about the Aura prerequisite!
The Rice Runner Trait would fit nicely, granting Acrobatics as a class skill and bumping it by +1.
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I finished reviewing this guide. I'm sorry it took so long. It's a really good build, and I must admit I'm running one now in a game. <.<
I've long been a fan of the longspear. It was the primary weapon of a 3.5 scout and 3.5 spellthief I've played. But I never tried it with a cleric. Maybe for my next PC. I haven't played a cleric in forever.
This looks kickin', and I can use a lot of these same tricks for the master summoner I'm running now! Thanks!
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I've been playing Kingmaker with a friend who's playing an Oracle. He was having the exact problem you discuss - use my standard action for a sub-par melee attack or a sub-par spell? I suggested that he dump his mace/shield style and pick up a longspear, and it worked out well.
Eventually he picked up Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fauchard and Improved Trip. Tripping goes well with reach weapons and AoO:)
What about a whip? I'm using a +1 throwing returning longspear...
EDIT: I should add distance to it as well. My GM was all like "WTF really?" when he saw my build.
What about a whip? I'm using a +1 throwing returning longspear...
EDIT: I should add distance to it as well. My GM was all like "WTF really?" when he saw my build.
I was just thinking this could work with throwing and the snap shot line.
Whips can attack 15ft away, but don't threaten that far, so they're no good for this. Whips are more like a blend between ranged weapons (only attack during your turn, provoke AoO as if a ranged weapon) with melee weapon (reach anywhere within 15ft, maneuvers).
So it doesn't work with whips.
So...polearms...Hmm...most ridiculous polearm available...
I think half-elves can trade out Skill Focus for a Martial Weapon Proficiency. That might be interesting. Then the Boots of Elvenkind make some sense fluff-wise, and you get another +2 to Perception.
You should also consider the Separatist archetype.
You pick one regular domain, and one "anything you like" domain. The Plant domain has the interesting sub-domain Growth that grants you Enlarge Person, as a swift action, 3 + WIS [-1] times a day which is awesome.
I think half-elves can trade out Skill Focus for a Martial Weapon Proficiency. That might be interesting. Then the Boots of Elvenkind make some sense fluff-wise, and you get another +2 to Perception.
Yes, they are soo tempting but ma,n is this build feat starved or what, Oh the pain!
Separatist only works for games where you are absolutely required to have a deity. Otherwise just pick two and roll with it.
Separatist only works for games where you are absolutely required to have a deity. Otherwise just pick two and roll with it.
Yeah but that doesn't really work out with Sacred Summons. The whole point of Sacred Summons is to be dedicated and bound to a Deity.
I must say I'm not a fan of the "I'll just cherry pick 2 domains and follow an idea" concept. I wouldn't allow it and certainly wouldn't allow it with Sacred Summons, YMMV.
Nice guide, bump and dot.
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I notice a lot of the guide suggests using long-term buffs, on both yourself and your equipment. A Ring of Counterspells with dispel magic or greater dispel magic might be worth getting.
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I have been using longspears on clerics for quite awhile now. It fits them perfectly. Add in Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard and not only can you fight, but you can prevent damage to your allies as an AoO.
If you really want to up the AC your allies get then take the Social Trait: Adopted to gain the Halfling Race Trait: Helpful. Then add the armor property Benevolent to your armor. Up to +9AC when using Aid Another.
- Gauss
KBrewer:
Just a heads up: By RAW the Liberation domain does not allow you to ignore difficult terrain unless that terrain was created via magical means.
I initially thought this worked the way you do but then it was pointed out to me that it only applies to magical effects.
- Gauss
Gauss--Benevolent is a weapon property (it lets you apply the enhancement bonus of your weapon to the AC you grant when using the Aid Another action. But really cool. I'm also a big fan of the Helpful trait.
But it looks like Bodyguard only works against adjacent allies.
SmiloDan: UE p115 Benevolent Armor property for +2000gp. The Benevolent Weapon property is more expensive at +1 and affects attack rolls while the armor property affects AC.
Yes, Bodyguard only works with adjacent allies. That is not a problem. Stand behind the fighter with your longspear, use Bodyguard and attack through him (yes, soft cover applies).
Alternately, if the target is large stand just to the left (or right) and behind him and you wont be attacking through soft cover.
- Gauss
KBrewer:
Some other magic items you may want to add to the list:
Eyes of the Eagle (Eyes, 2,500gp): +5 Perception.
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone with Wayfinder (slotless, 5,500gp): +1 insight bonus to AC, +2insight bonus to CMD and CMB
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (head, 5,000gp): +1 luck bonus to AC, 1/day negates a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
While I would not get either of these ahead of a +1 deflection or +1 natural armor bonus I would get both of them before getting a +2 in either deflection or natural armor.
- Gauss
I tweaked my caster cleric a bit to take advantage of the reach cleric strategy (our group has three non-reach front-liners). He's still primarily a caster (Str 14 Dex 12 Wis 16) but now he's much more confident when something closes with him. I never realized how nice a feat combat reflexes is---getting your attacks of opportunity while flat-footed is great. Also, the Grace spell from the APG works well with the build. It's a bit pricy for what it does (2nd level, swift action) but it's nice when acrobatics isn't viable.
Has anyone had any experience with this build? How good does it fare when he is actually the frontline member? Or, in other words, is it possible to play it without a dedicated tank, using perhaps summoned allies?
question:
does a reach cleric of irori 'double threaten'?
that is, if a creature moves into my longspear threat range, after i take an attack of opportunity with my spear, if it then moves into my roundhouse threat range, do i get to take a second attack of opportunity with my kick?
Each "action" can only provoke one AoO from any one creature. So in your example, the move action the monster is performing will only provoke one AoO as it moves toward you.
I'm considering adapting the principle - the Reach Caster school of Action Economy - to a druid or bard. Any thoughts about that? Is there something specific about the cleric, or would those other classes also work?
It would work out the same really. I particularly like it with the Bard although they don't have as many spells/day they can use actions to perform/cast without feeling like that's all they ever get to do.
The Bard is going to act like a Caster, not a Melee'er. He's just going to be closer than normal to the monsters. Mirror Image should make that close proximity feel safer though!
At low levels a Bard can cope with a bit of Dex and light armour, at low-to-mid levels Mirror Image will work, at mid levels Gr. Invisibility comes in.