The new series of Doctor Who starts this Saturday on the BBC.


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Grand Lodge

DeathQuaker wrote:


As to next Doctor... well, my favorite Doctor has always been the one played by Joanna Lumley. Maybe they can get her back. ;)

Sapphire and Steel? At 66 Lumley will look good as the Doctor, a smoke in one hand, tipsy with a glass of wine in the other. ;)

I am curious though, are we near The Fields of Trenzalore and the fall of the eleventh? I was hoping Matt Smith would seek to at least double Tom Baker's tenure. He's young. ;)

Shadow Lodge

Hearing all the talk here past companions, one of the sad details about Liz Sladen's death is they were planning to have some of them guest star on Sara Jane Adventures, most notably Sophie Aldred.

It would be interesting to recast some of the older companions with different actors.

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It was originally reported that Matt Smith was leaving after the Christmas special

BUT

that has since been debunked.

Which I am glad to hear, as I'd only heard the first bit earlier.

wicked cool wrote:
Over the weekend i watched the retospective shows on the first 4 Dr's and there seems to be a stronger interest in bringing back more classic villians such as the Ice Warriors.

They've always done a fair balance of creating new villains and revisiting old ones. It's cool to see the older monsters redesigned with the benefit of modern materials and CGI (although I have mixed feelings on how they did Silurians, although most of my objection there is that egg-laying reptiles from Earth shouldn't have breasts, even the female ones). I am cool with bringing back old villains as long as there's something new to explore or another angle to take on them. And that applies to new series villains and old series villains alike... the Weeping Angels were great in "Blink" but diminished (in my personal opinion) in subsequent episodes in which they were featured as there wasn't much else to explore there.

Quote:


Lalla Ward also stated recently they want her back. Wondering if thats a 1 time spot for a special or a regeneration scene?

For anyone else, here is the source of that information. The discussion of it starts toward the very end, around 4 minutes in. She says, ""they keep trying to get me to do things, but I keep backing off." It's not very clear who "they" are, whether she means the TV show production team, or perhaps Big Finish, for whom she's done several audioplays.

Quote:
Any chance that Clara is Romana or Susan?

They go through a big effort to show current-Clara is very very definitely a human being who was born human to her human parents. So things like chameleon circuits and such are out. Currently the Scaroth-theory seems most likely to me--that she is somehow splintered through time (possibly in multiple episodes) and is living multiple lives on different timelines. Unlike Scaroth though she isn't quite aware of her other selves. But who knows? Could be anything. Maybe an Eternal occupying themselves for an instant by inserting their essence into a human body for a few lifetimes. Maybe she's just weird.

Quote:


Not sure why they couldnt have a Time War movie and have the DR recast. It was done before with the tv special and the Peter cushing movie

First, I think some mysteries of the Time War should remain mysteries. Second, the TV special wasn't the Doctor being "recast"--Paul McGann is canonly the Eighth Doctor. He isn't an alternate universe Doctor like Peter Cushing or the Shalka Doctor Richard Grant or the various Curse of Fatal Death Doctors (also including Richard Grant, as well as Rowan Atkinson, Hugh Grant, and Joanna Lumley, and someone else I'm sadly forgetting at the moment. Jim somthing I think). And if the Time War movie were an "alternate universe" non canon movie, then sure, cast whoever you like. But if it's to take place in the TV canon, then it would be best if they could get McGann to do it.

Quote:
Hearing all the talk here past companions, one of the sad details about Liz Sladen's death is they were planning to have some of them guest star on Sara Jane Adventures, most notably Sophie Aldred.

One would hope that at some point they can either bring some of the people they wanted to bring in either into an episode of Doctor Who or into another spinoff. But I can also understand not wanting to do another spinoff right away, so it would have its own place and not just be a "replacement" show for SJA, out of respect to the memory of Ms. Sladen.

I'd love to see Ace return especially, as her fate has never been known, and spin off media has given her a variety of odd endings; would love to see one definitive one. We do see in SJA Sarah Jane mention she's living on Earth running a charity, but I'd like to see a little more than that.

Quote:
It would be interesting to recast some of the older companions with different actors.

My opinion on that is a fervent no thank you. I'm fine with bringing them back, at the age they are. There's no reason any of them can't be the age they are---most of the ones who left the Doctor on Earth would, in present day, in fact be the age they are (that includes Ian, Dodo, Ben, Polly, Victoria, Jo (who we've seen and it was wonderful), various UNIT crew, Tegan, and Ace. Mel, Turlough, and Nyssa are out wandering space and also could be met in their later timeline (at the age the actors are now) easily.

Character who are in Earth's past or future might be harder -- Vicki (especially since we know she must have died tragically since she is Cressida to Troilus), Jamie, Zoe (the last two particularly a challenge since they wouldn't know the Doctor beyond the first time they met him). As would be of course characters who've died but the actors who've not: Katarina, Sara Kingdom, Adric, maybe possibly Peri.

The hard ones are Susan and Romana because they're Gallifreyan and we don't know what happened to them after the Time War, and Leela because she lived on Gallifrey. Also Peri because no one's quite sure what really happened to her.

I am not including companions whose actors who have passed away and I would personally prefer their characters left alone. Imagine, for example, Sarah Jane being recast. I don't think so.

In short I think if they can get the original actors to play the companions and come up with a good story as to why they're there, great. If not, I'd rather they be left alone -- there are other stories to tell without sideways-insulting an actor by insinuating they're too old. Just my opinion, of course, but I'd feel strongly enough about it that it might turn me off of the show if they pulled something like that.


wicked cool wrote:

i second Legendarius. Is Matt Smith leaving? I cant see Who ending anytime soon. Its very popular and they seem to be spending money on it. Plus they just brought in a new producer to help out Moffat (Brian Minchin)

Over the weekend i watched the retospective shows on the first 4 Dr's and there seems to be a stronger interest in bringing back more classic villians such as the Ice Warriors.

Lalla Ward also stated recently they want her back. Wondering if thats a 1 time spot for a special or a regeneration scene?

Any chance that Clara is Romana or Susan?

Not sure why they couldnt have a Time War movie and have the DR recast. It was done before with the tv special and the Peter cushing movie

For the TV Movie the Doctor was recast due to regeneration. For the Cushing Movies the stories were remakes. The same tales retold with new cast and some differences (the Doctor being human for a start). A Time War movie that isn't cast with an existing Doctor would be doomed to spend it's days in the "does it count?" purgatory along with the Cushing Movies, the novels, the plays and the audio dramas.

Cheers
Mark


The studios wouldnt care about hardcore fan reactions "does it count". My opinion would be they would want a big name actor to play the DR and/or the villian and i doubt they would recast a previous Dr. The DR would be young/athletic good looking to get maximum audience range and Daleks would probably have some type of human ally. Probably be a female companion along with other expendables including a droid such as K9 .

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Whoops, I quoted wicked cool and kerney and forgot to put in kerney's name over his, sorry about that.

The fact that big studios wouldn't care about fan reactions is in part exactly why I do not want a Doctor Who film.


Mark Norfolk wrote:
wicked cool wrote:

i second Legendarius. Is Matt Smith leaving? I cant see Who ending anytime soon. Its very popular and they seem to be spending money on it. Plus they just brought in a new producer to help out Moffat (Brian Minchin)

Over the weekend i watched the retospective shows on the first 4 Dr's and there seems to be a stronger interest in bringing back more classic villians such as the Ice Warriors.

Lalla Ward also stated recently they want her back. Wondering if thats a 1 time spot for a special or a regeneration scene?

Any chance that Clara is Romana or Susan?

Not sure why they couldnt have a Time War movie and have the DR recast. It was done before with the tv special and the Peter cushing movie

For the TV Movie the Doctor was recast due to regeneration. For the Cushing Movies the stories were remakes. The same tales retold with new cast and some differences (the Doctor being human for a start). A Time War movie that isn't cast with an existing Doctor would be doomed to spend it's days in the "does it count?" purgatory along with the Cushing Movies, the novels, the plays and the audio dramas.

Has it actually been made clear in the show that there wasn't another regeneration between Paul McGann and Eccleston?

Dark Archive

Actually, there was a regeneration between 8 & 9, although it happened off-screen before the new series started.


Marik Whiterose wrote:
Actually, there was a regeneration between 8 & 9, although it happened off-screen before the new series started.

A regeneration, as in the Doctor regenerated from McGann to Eccleston?

Or a regeneration as in another version of the Doctor between the two? Making Eccleston actually the 10th Doctor, though we've never seen Nine?

But that was actually my point. If there's the possibility of another version of the Doctor between the two, during the Time War, then you can cast anyone you like to be him.

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BBC official press refers to McGann as the 8th and Eccleston as the 9th, thus according to official TV canon, there is no other Doctor between them.


As did Matt Smith's first story, which showed all his official predecessors.

Shadow Lodge

thejeff wrote:
Marik Whiterose wrote:
Actually, there was a regeneration between 8 & 9, although it happened off-screen before the new series started.

A regeneration, as in the Doctor regenerated from McGann to Eccleston?

Or a regeneration as in another version of the Doctor between the two? Making Eccleston actually the 10th Doctor, though we've never seen Nine?

But that was actually my point. If there's the possibility of another version of the Doctor between the two, during the Time War, then you can cast anyone you like to be him.

While they've basically decided Mcgann counted as 8, there were a couple BBC podcasts that are now considered alternate timelines that included a both the 7th being the end of the line and a different 9th. "Death Comes to Time" was one where 7 perma-died (and is very good, and I love McCoy). I can't remember the name of the other one.

Those 'almost' became 'cannon'.


Aha! "Brave heart, Clara!" and "I used to travel with a gobby Australian, spent ages trying to get her to Heathrow Airport!"

ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED: FIFTH DOCTOR REFERENCE

So, a Sixth Doctor reference to spot next week then :-)

Calybos1 wrote:

Of course, the Eye of Harmony later got inexplicably installed in the Doctor's TARDIS in That TV Movie We Don't Discuss, even though the new series cleverly relabeled it the "heart of the TARDIS."

Every TARDIS has a transdimensional link to the Eye of Harmony. The BBC website states in its entry for the TV movie that the Eye of Harmony is not 'inside' the TARDIS, but there is a link to it which is sometimes just called 'the Eye of Harmony' as a shorthand. That continues to be the case, clearly, though it seems to contradict the fact that the TARDIS used to have to refuel at the time rift in Cardiff, presumably as its link to the Eye (on Gallifrey) had been severed.

Quote:
Lalla Ward also stated recently they want her back. Wondering if thats a 1 time spot for a special or a regeneration scene?

AFAIK, this was for David Tennant's final specials. RTD thought about making Romana a member of the High Council of Time Lords, then remembered he'd made her President (in one of his short stories) and would have to explain why she was no longer President and Timothy Dalton-Rassilon was around and blah blah blah. So the idea was dropped. However, I can see them bringing her back in flashback, especially around the anniversary.

EDIT: Oh, apparently the reference wasn't to that. Interesting. I think it's more likely a Big Finish thing than a TV thing.

Quote:
Any chance that Clara is Romana or Susan?

No chance, unless they want to go to the fob watch well again (you don't want to use the same plot device three times as it risks becoming stale). However, I like the idea that

SPOILERISED because, even though it's a theory, it's one that's picked up a lot traction and is VERY Moffat-esque. I could see him doing this somehow:

Spoiler:
Clara is the Doctor's daughter, Jenny, somehow, even though she has a mum and dad. Someone even had a great theory on this based on the fact that Jenny's spaceship seat was the same as Clara's in her first episode, though that was more likely the production team reusing props.

What I'd like even more is if Clara is the Doctor's daughter AND Susan's mother. That would be quite impressive, wrapping up a story arc 50 years in the making :-)

And that would make the Doctor's name, "Dad."

Hang on.

Quote:
Not sure why they couldnt have a Time War movie and have the DR recast. It was done before with the tv special and the Peter cushing movie

They could just bring back Paul McGann. He's a tremendous actor, it'd give us the missing regeneration scene (you don't even need Ecclestone, just have the regeneration starting as the credits roll) and they wouldn't have to worry about conflicting with the ongoing TV show.

The only problem is that Moffat has said that it'd be disrespectful not to have the current Doctor in the role, and he'd veto any project that didn't have Matt Smith playing the Doctor (in fact, he already has; one movie project proposed to the BBC last year was killed off at Moffat's express order because it was a reboot).

Quote:
I am curious though, are we near The Fields of Trenzalore and the fall of the eleventh?

Spoiler:
The final episode of the season - the episode in 2 weeks, not the 50th anniversary or Christmas special - takes place on Trenzalore. So we're right on top of it.
Quote:
One would hope that at some point they can either bring some of the people they wanted to bring in either into an episode of Doctor Who or into another spinoff.

If they don't do a spin-off featuring Madame Vastra, Jenny and Strax I'll eat my hat. Though I'm not sure if the joke would wear thin over a long period of time.

Quote:
Also Peri because no one's quite sure what really happened to her

I think, canonically, the 'alternate' ending to TRIAL OF A TIME LORD, showing her living happily with Brian Blessed, is her official fate. She's definitely not dead, unless the Inquistor had a reason to lie about it.

Quote:
The studios wouldnt care about hardcore fan reactions "does it count". My opinion would be they would want a big name actor to play the DR and/or the villian and i doubt they would recast a previous Dr.

Luckily, Moffat does care, and apparently the TV showrunner has the final say over any movie tie-in (and I suspect Gatiss, if he is the next showrunner, will have the same policy as he is even more rabid an old-school fan than Moffat and Davies). So if a studio wants to do a movie, they have to play by the BBC's rules.

The BBC could also certainly part-fund a film themselves. Remember, these people have experience of making amazing-looking episodes for no money (DOCTOR WHO's budget is quite pitiful in comparison even to something like the new BSG or FRINGE, let alone GAME OF THRONES). If the BBC handled a film themselves, even featuring the Time War, they could do it for a hell of a lot less than a massive Hollywood studio.

Grand Lodge

Could this be Clara?

spoiler:
Clara has an obsession for books and libraries, so she may be CAL from "Silence in the Library" and "Forest of the Dead", both episodes written by Steven Moffat. It would not be ironic that these episodes also introduced us to another companion River Song.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

*sigh* My cable's been wonky and I've not been able to catch the BBCA for two weeks now :-(

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Mazra wrote:

Could this be Clara?

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

I looked this up when I saw someone suggest this elsewhere; it appears to be a very popular fan theory.

I don't think so, the main reason being, I see no reason why Charlotte Abigail Lux would change her name to Clara Oswin Oswald. Or if she changed her name once, why she wouldn't keep changing it and her identity, as in this case she would obviously be trying to hide her true identity from the Doctor. Clara is always recognizable, and this mystery is exactly what attracts her to him, so if the core of Clara's being were trying to avoid being recognized, this would be a poor way of going about it.

Also the actresses who played CAL and Clara as little girls were two different actresses.

If Clara were Charlotte, it would also mean CAL was no longer maintaining the Library database, meaning River Song and her crew would truly be dead. While this could be possible of course, I'm not sure what purpose it would serve at his point.

Plus if River sent CAL to find the Doctor, it seems like she'd--game player even though she is--would be more obvious about getting a message to him (such as something like the book written by Melody Malone).

That the show went through the trouble of showing 21st century Clara's whole life to the present, starting with her parents meeting, then them marrying, then having her, then her childhood... seems to suggest they are trying to drive home she is a full self-contained human being within her own lifetime. That she has lived multiple lifetimes--at different times--is its own mystery certainly, but it doesn't suggest she is someone else's brain in a body made for it.

Finally: COO is just kind of a stupid acronym. ;)

Grand Lodge

Death Quaker, you make many good points.

Spoiler! Who is Clara:
The little girl in the first two episodes would now be several years older, so that actress may not have worked out for the part, or even been available.

CAL would have learned a lot about the Doctor through River Song. It is just possible that CAL was working to give the Doctor a companion that he would become so close to, that even the Tardis would be jealous of her. That each version of Clara was a unique being unaware of the other versions; living out a unique life. Clara is simply the product of River Song and the thoughts of Donna too working through CAL to give the Doctor the companion he needs. Placing her at different points in time was just the catalyst needed to pique the interest of the Doctor.

The last few episodes are showing a growing chemistry between Matt Smith's Doctor and Jenna Louise Coleman's Clara; almost too much chemistry.

It was just a thought.

I originally thought about a malevolent female Time Lord that had managed to escape the destruction, but that didn't make much sense either. The main reason I pointed to the library has more to do with Moffat as writer than any reason that really makes any rational sense. After all a lot of Doctor Who stretches the boundaries of making rational sense; think the remnant British people floating around through space on a Space Whale.

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Mazra...

Spoiler:

Given we saw Clara at several ages, hiring the same actress, as needed, to play her at an older age, would have been possible. They look a little alike but I have a feeling that is coincidental.

Is CAL able to send things through time and space? Last I checked all she was capable of was of teleporting people's essences into her database and out of it--amazing, but nothing involving massive space or time travel.

I like the idea of the Library being interested in helping the Doctor, I just don't see how it's possible.

Mind, a LOT of fans are positing Clara is CAL so my opinion is either in the minority or part of a less vocal majority.

I really think Clara is an ordinary human woman, to whom something extraordinary and timey wimey happened. But we shall see, won't we? If you are right I'll be ready to give a well played.

As for the chemistry, he is affectionate with Clara but I don't see anything weird or heated by it. Especially since it's a lot of hugs and kisses on the forehead, something you do to family and platonic friends. Yes, there are mouth kisses too but there's no "heat" to them... and after all he kisses Jenny Flint that way too, and he knows she's a) taken b) a lesbian. I've generally gotten the sense 11's been making up for some of his more standoffish selves and is more physical with his friends than the Doctor has been in the past, but that doesn't mean chemistry in terms of romance to me. Chemistry yes that in general the characters interact well and interestingly together and do so increaslingly.

Grand Lodge

DeathQuaker.... :)

spoiler:
CAL didn't have River Song in her database before. With River Song breaching time and space could become a possibility. River Song is very central to many of the episodes written by Moffat.

As for the chemistry, I see it more as a growing deep affection, than a good River Song smack on the lips. But who knows, that may be down the road too. In the end, I would like to see it more as a very deep platonic love between the two. There is definitely a growing chemistry between Matt and Jenna Louise; or they are just good actors.

DeathQuaker I enjoy your thoughts. It is clear you are a true Whovian. ;)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Continued Clara discussion...

Spoiler:

River has some extraordinary capabilities, but last I checked, bending time and space from within a virtual reality was not one of them. And frankly if she were given those abilities I would groan at how cheesy it would be; she'd be more Mary Sue/Deus Ex Machina than ever, so I really hope not.

Sorry I just really don't see it. Maybe there is a piece I am missing. I do like Clara's fascination with the TARDIS library and I think that's what sparked the CAL theory but there's other possibilities for that too. Ooh! Oooh! Perhaps she's an Agent of the British Library given timey wimey powers by the Gentleman! Yes! That's it! (DeathQuaker has now crossed her Doctor Who nerdery with her Read or Die nerdery, please do not encourage her for everyone's sanity).

Although maybe another Time Lord accessed CAL from outside to get knowledge on the Doctor... that could be a way of making a connection that I'd feel better about. My gut still says it's something else--but as noted, we will see! I have a feeling whatever Moffat's got planned, even if we see part of it coming, there'll be a bit that'll really throw us all for a loop. :)

And thank you for the compliment. I enjoy a good Doctor Who discussion--there are so many viewpoints to explore, as long as folks are willing to agree to disagree as they are explored, it can be a great deal of fun. I appreciate the ability with which you put forth your ideas evenly and clearly and passionately, without attacking my own perspective, I truly do. :)

Grand Lodge

More thoughts on Clara...

spoiler:
If it is the library, I think it will be processes developed by the library using what River Song knows, and not more Mary Sue at work. At least I hope not too. The library has obtained such a vast amount of knowledge that it became sentient. Once sentient who knows what it could do. With River's knowledge it could create a device to move through time. When you are dealing with something that has this much information gathered in one place the possibilities become endless. And it is because of this extreme knowledge base that the library and CAL having a connection makes sense.

The other thought is that Clara is a creation of the Daleks. That too could explain why the TARDIS dislikes Clara. There are a lot of wholes in this theory too; not the least, why would the Daleks need multiple creations? This theory is too "easy" considering how we first met Jenna Louise. No. At present, the library as a vast sentient being seeking with the help of River Song to aid the Doctor sounds good.

More likely you will be correct. That Moffat, whom I deeply respect, will give us a truly awesome surprise.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Just read an interview with John Hurt

big news/spoiler:
He's playing a lost Doctor, between 8 and 9, who fought in the Time War. He is wearing 9's leather coat. Curiouser and Curiouser.

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Source?

'Cause all I can find is

Spoiler:

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/john_hurt_launches_sheringham_little_theatre_ci nema_campaign_1_2184494

Quote:
Mr Hurt, who lives near Cromer, earlier told the EDP he had just finished shooting a Dr Who 3D special in which he plays “part of the Doctor” in a “kind of trinity” which includes David Tennant.

Sounds to me more like a sort of dream sequence or something.

Sovereign Court Contributor

DeathQuaker wrote:

Source?

'Cause all I can find is

** spoiler omitted **

PS:
look at the costume

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Spoiler:
The link I found is that blog's source of information (you click on their link, you get the article I posted). It doesn't mention the Time War at all that I can see, simply that he is representing an aspect of the Doctor.

We've seen aspects of the Doctor before. Dream Doctor, the Valeyard, the Watcher. It'd actually be cool if he was the Valeyard. ;) (not that I think that's what he is)

And yes, he is wearing a leather jacket, along with a costume I've never seen before. You can speculate about what it means, and maybe it has something to do with the Time War, but I can't find anything that explicitly suggests what you said. Given the other Doctors in the photo are 10 and 11, my speculation would be he would be representing something post-Time War, but WHO knows? :)


I couldn't spot a Sixth Doctor reference this week. It's possible they had one and it was edited out, or something has completely slipped me by.

Spoiler:
They did show all of the previous Doctor's faces, but nothing stood out about the Sixth. The only dialogue references were to the Tenth. I suppose thematically the Emperor crushing on Clara was vaguely like Ycranos falling for Peri, but that's seriously reaching.


Would be funny if i was right on my time war guess.

Maybe im getting old but i liked the older cyberman design (pre last weeks). The new version was too shiny and moved like it was about to dance or something. I understand that Moffat likes to change things but it didnt work with the new dalek design but again might just be me.

Also didnt like it when they changed daleks to be indestrectible. Now even the best marksman cant damage them . Not liking the trend.

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Werthead wrote:

I couldn't spot a Sixth Doctor reference this week. It's possible they had one and it was edited out, or something has completely slipped me by.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

I will watch again, but the only thing which struck me in general was some of the Cyber-conversion makeup and Cybermen alcoves reminding me of the half-converted Cybermen and the Cybermen alcoves in "Attack of the Cybermen." That episode also ended with resolving the Cybermen issue by blowing them all up. Plus referring to their new world as Cyberia... like Siberia, a cold place, like Telos home to the Cryons. All might be a stretch, but that's what I noticed.

wickedcool, I agree the...

Spoiler:

Upgraded Cybermen were disappointing in their near invulnerability. I liked the design but the whole "upgrade" thing made them too Borg-like. They're already similar enough, we don't need them to be interchangable. The "raston warrior robot" like movement was also annoying. Cybermen should be nasty soldiers who are definitely scary in the numbers of them that showed up in the show, they don't need to be "undefeatable" on top, that's just boring.

Dark Archive

Wert:
Werthead wrote:
They did show all of the previous Doctor's faces, but nothing stood out about the Sixth. The only dialogue references were to the Tenth. I suppose thematically the Emperor crushing on Clara was vaguely like Ycranos falling for Peri, but that's seriously reaching.

There's the part where he channeled 9 as well, that was *brilliantly* done, but still not 6th.

Grand Lodge

spoiler:
I really enjoyed the last episode. It was good to see Warwick Davis. Sure the Cyberman was extra shiny, and I agree the "upgrade" was over-the-top, but it was not a bad episode. It is interesting to note, than Moffat neither wrote nor directed either "Victory of the Daleks" or "Nightmare in Silver." I don't know how much influence he had on the redesigns of Daleks (very silly unless you want to make a lot of toys) or the Cybermen. As Producer I am sure he had some, but I imagine in the BBC bureaucracy there are a lot of decision makers. In the case of the Daleks, I am sure product tie-ins was high up in their thinking.

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Re: Cybermen

Spoiler:
I think part of the Cyberman redesign rationale was that the Cybermen design for the new series had the "Cybus-C" logo on their chests. That made sense for the actual Cybus-men when they were introduced, but I think later appearances of the Cybermen are tying them back to their original Mondasian origins, or combining the two somehow, so getting rid of the logo was important.

That doesn't explain the entire redesign of course, but I think was part of it.

I was reading somewhere a comment that the attempt of the redesign was to get the Cybermen a little more into the Uncanny Valley, to make them more unsettling looking---certain roundnesses and the the facial redesign is part of that. If I re-find the source I'll post it.

The Exchange

About Cybermen:

Spoiler:
I'm surprised that all of what you people talk about is just the new look, considering that there was a *much* more essential change to them last episode. As in, they changed 180 degrees, and are just about the complete reverse of the cybermen seen before.
The "old" cybermen used to say "upgrade" a lot, just like these new ones, but the meaning of the word was changed in this episode. The *entire* point of the cybermen up to this point was that they believed themselves to be perfect - see their argument with the Daleks at the finale of season 2, for example. Their purpose was not just to conquer and dominate, it was to "upgrade" humans into becoming cybermen, hence making them perfect. It was an interesting motivation that made them not even truly evil, just cold and unhuman and uncaring... and dangerous.
Further more, it was made clear that Cybermen are a stagnated race - that they had no creativity, sense of identity or any sort of original thought.

So those were the established cybermen, and in this episode, we get self-upgrading cybermen. So:

1) Apparantly now they are no longer incapable of inventing anything new

2) By the act of upgrade oneself, you first have to admit that you were not perfect prior to the upgrade (or else the very idea of an upgrade is a logical impossibility). So if Cybermen are upgrading themselves, they admit to NOT being perfect.

The new "upgrade" idea is not a natural evolution of what was before, it's a sharp and discontinuous turn into something that does not only happen to be different from the original idea, but also completely opposes it. Why are Cybermen still interested in upgrading humans if they are not perfect themselves? what IS their motivation, besides being scary robot monsters? The episode, while being action packed and full of shiny new ideas, kind of forgot about that. The fact that I just can't figure out *why* would the cybermen be aggresive and warlike just makes the plot seems contrived to me. The Doctor does not seem to care either.

Now, I'm a newcomer to the show, and so am not aware of the long history of Cybermen as villains, I'm only working with the information I have from doctors 10 and 11... but still, I feel like there was a great feel and focus to the Cybermen before, and it was lost now.

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Lord Snow

Spoiler:
You cover in depth what I briefly and vaguely touched upon by saying that they have become too Borg-like. Star Trek's Borg are the ones that continually adapted and upgraded their weapons.

That said, the Cybermen ARE supposed to improve and upgrade themselves over time (or else they'd still look like this -- and their continual changes in appearance over the years is covered in the show is acknowledged as improving their systems. But I felt they had gone overboard in the last episode... it dovetails into the complaints here that they are "too invincible" -- unstoppable monsters are boring, because of course as the Doctor notes, there is no such thing, so you may as well give them some flaws and weaknesses that makes them interesting.

(Also, total grognard nitpick: they got the gold allergy all wrong. Gold's supposed to mess up their respiratory systems, it shouldn't do a damn thing if you just stick some gold leaf to them. It makes me extra sad that Neil Gaiman wrote this as he is a good enough writer that he should have done the research.)

The Cybermen ARE conquerors, but in a sense that they want to "improve" humanity by capturing every last one of them and making them "become like us" (which was the old Cyberman catchphrase: "You belong to us. You will become like us." Which I always thought was heck of a lot cooler than "you will be upgraded." They are supposed to go through the galaxy and conquer what human settlements they can and convert them. In their minds they are not being warlike, they are just continuing their purpose for existence, which is to make all humanity "better." It is the only purpose they have, because lacking emotion and inspiration, they can't find any other purpose for being, which is why they'd continue to upgrade humans even after they have achieved the "perfection" they desire. But again, I agree they want far too over the top here. I always thought they were at their best as a relatively small invasion force, but slowly insidiously working their way into the population, often with human allies helping them.

The Exchange

DeathQuaker,

Spoiler:
Ah, I see. As I noted before I am only femiliar with the new Doctor Who, where the Cybermen were created by that madman at the parallel universe, and he installed them in a way that had them believing they were already perfect - and they kept that belief even when faced with clear evidance that it's false (for example, when they got thier metal backsides kicked by the Dalecks), so the way I saw it, they were "programmed" to think they are perfect. Because that's what their creator thought.

By the way, are the Cybermen in this episode related to those from season 2, or something else?

Dark Archive

Oh my giddy Aunt.

That made me laugh and cry and pretty much everything in between....

Sooooooo many questions now....

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have to say I think I might be a little jazzed for the anniversary ep,

Dark Archive

Just a teeny, tiny bit, yeah.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Lord Snow, regarding the Cybermen--I think it's okay not to spoil this bit, as it's just background:

The Cybermen wish to "achieve perfection." What I call the Cybusmen, the ones from Season 2, are an alternate version of that, but very close. Their creator I think did believe that they were perfect, or more perfect than humanity. For oldskool Cybermen or Cybusmen, they might believe they ARE perfect... until they discover a weakness in something they thought worked.

Mind, it's never been too consistent.

My assumption is any Cybermen we see in outer space are Mondasian Cybermen, the originals, not the Cybusmen. I may be wrong, however.

Won't be able to see tonight's episode till tomorrow morning (when it shows up on my Amazon account) but I have heard vague things that there are some mind blowing things in it.

Grand Lodge

Steven Moffat is brilliant. :)


Season Finale

Spoiler:
The Doctor will be the Valeyard thus ending years of debate in a single throwaway line,, and for those who worked out that Clara was indeed split through the time stream..congratulations

The Exchange

The name of the Doctor:

Spoiler:

So, ok, I like the principal. The name of The Doctor, the one that matters, is the one he chose for himself, not the one he was born with. Not half bad. Also, the explination for the mystery of Clara is explained in a rather cool way.

Mostly I have two problems with an otherwise O.K episode:

1) Nothing was explained properly. I don't get who the Great Intelligence is (actualy read about it in the internet, but the episode leaves this as a complete mystery), I don't know what those white faced things serving it are, I don't know how it got from Victorian London to another planet, I don't know why the madman from prison at the beginning knew about The Doctor and how to contact the lizardmwoman about him... It's really just kind of a pile of stuff you have to not question if you are to follow the plot.

2) The G.I's plot seems a bit convulted. He's got The Doctor right where he wants him, he cant just kill the Doctor and be done with it. I get that he won't have the setisfaction of erasing The Doctor from existance, but considering that the G.I payed for the privilege with it's own life makes the move a bit extreme. Somehow I just can't imagine a creature calling itself "great intelligence" being willing to be destroyed just for petty revenge - again, if all the G.I wanted was the Doctor removed, he could have easily killed him. If I understood correctly from my reading, the G.I is actualy a Great Old One, a extra-dimensional immortal from the Cthulhu mythos. That means he's acting way out of character here.

3) Nobody dies when Moffat is driving! When characters appeared to be dead in this episode, it just wasn't beliveable anymore. Janni is dead? worry not, she'll live again. Strax is dead? whatever, wait 70 seconds, he'll be back (or is it she?). Even when Clara split herself, The Doctor just casualy stepped INTO HIS OWN TIMELINE (the entire premise of the show is that he can't do that, or else every episode will end with him traveling back in time to where the thing which created the problem in the episode started and change it) and saved her, making the sacrifice, once again, fake.

4) And speaking of the sacrifice, it really didn't make a lot of sense, mostly because Clara had just about the same amounts of character development this season as Amy got in her two seasons - which is to say, very little. We know next to nothing about her. There's barley a moment (except in "Bells of Saint John") where we see her just speak with the Doctor r behave as she would, since all episodes were so action packed there was no time for it. So why does a young girl who likes living so easily throw herself away to save this man she really barely knows at all? Maybe it's just how she is, but given that we know next to nothing about her, it's hard to tell.

Wow, while writing this I kind of came to realize this episode was not very good. It was fun watching, but man, so many flaws. I thought I had two things bothering me with this, but apprantly there were 4 :P


In general I agree with your comments...once again we were left with more questions than answers..perhaps the Anniversary will bring some of the latter

The Exchange

Now that the episode has some more time to tumble in my mind, I realise I actualy DON'T like something about it:

Spoiler:

The solution to Clara's mystey is actualy nonsensical. So she hops into The Doctor's time stream to save him from the Great Intelligence... but:

1) At least in one episode, "Asylum of the Dalek", she saves him in a way that had NOTHING to do with the G.I and it's white faced minions. I thought, though, that she was tracking down places where the G.I went and stopped it from erasing the Doctor. Speaking of which,

2) How would Clara even know how to nevigate the Doctor's timeline? sure, the G.I can do it, it's ancient and powerful and super um, intelligent, I suppose. But just a 21st century earthling barely out of college? I don't know.

3) O.K, so Clara pops in in a (place-time) and saves the Doctor... why does she die in the process? not once or twice but always? how does that have to do with anything?

4) Is she awere that she's traveling through space-time and and saving The Doctor? because from her nerration of this episode you'd think so, but it was very obvious that in the last two time she met him (asylum of the Daleks and the christmas special) she didn't know who he was... does she always only remember what she is when she is between lives?

Just yet another pile of things which don't make sense, are not explained, and were probably not given much thought by the writers.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DM Wellard wrote:
In general I agree with your comments...once again we were left with more questions than answers..perhaps the Anniversary will bring some of the latter

And while we wait, would you be interested in this lovely bridge I happen to have to sell? ;-)

Let's be honest, Moffat does not seem to like resolving mysteries unless he can pile on even more mysteries.


Spoiler:

To Lord Snow:

1: I also haven't seen the old Who episodes, but the online info on the great intelligence made it clear enough for me. The white-faced minions were just other thought forms of him (which is why he could just pop into at will, and why they disappeared when he entered the time stream). The random prisoner knew about the doctor stuff because the great intelligence used him as a trap basically, knowing the information would get to the Doctors friends. As for how it could travel through time and space, it wasn't a flesh and blood entity, but a being of mind, and could probably ignore a lot of rules of reality

2: My impression was that the GI was just plain tired of having every plot and attempt at power thwarted by the Doctor, including plans that future incarnations have probably interfered with. The GI wanted to end its life in the way that would punish the doctor in the worst way imaginable.

I also don't think its cannon that GI is a Great Old One...I know some of the novels have dabbled with mixing Lovecraft and Who, but the show hasn't and that is really the cannon that matters

3: Agreed...Madame Vastra's wife should have stayed dead, at the very least

4: To each there own...at least part of the motivation was remembering stuff that happened from being in the Tardis tomb. I don't find this a failing of the writing but more a problem of having only 6 episodes with the character, and more time being devoted to her mystery than to her personality.

your 2nd post:

1: The GI was subtly messing with things, not straight up attacking the different incarnations. We see at least one instance of her helping...she suggested first Doctor take a different Tardis than the one he was going to. I assume most of the fixes she was involved in were minor butterfly effect circumstances

2: She wasn't navigating...she was splintered into a million versions throughout the timeline

3: Does she always die? Those two circumstances yes, but to be honest she was really in many ways already dead in Asylum.

4: This I admit was a bit confusing...although it didn't much bother me.

The Exchange

MMCJawa wrote:
** spoiler omitted **...

Spoiler:

First a technicality - Clara said she dies every time... I guess it might mean sometimes she gets to live a full life before dying of natural reasons and being born again to save the Doctor... maybe I misunderstood that part but frankly, it's very confusing. More so because the couple of time we did see her save the Doctor she died, and her deaths were part of the mystery.

About the G.I - yeah, sure, it can travel through time and space because it dosen't have a body, which dosen't come anywhere near explaining how it transported it's prisoners from earth to another planet.

And yes, there are explanations about the G.I in the internet, and I read them, but that dosen't excuse the fact that the episode never shares the information with you. All you know about the G.I is that it has a grudge against the Doctor... it shouldn't by my responsibility to go find out. Imagine if the new show never explained what Daleks are? they would just show up one episode and start doing bad things and NOBODY would question what's going on. NOBODY. That would be a disservice to them, and the same kind of disservice was done to the G.I here. In seasons 1 - 5 a large part of each episode was introducing the bad guys - their motivations and personalities and special kind of evil. Here, we are faced with a cool, iconic villain from the Doctor's past and never learn ANYTHING about it. A disappointment.

About it's descision to suicide in order to take down the Doctor... again, I find myself hard pressed to believe such an entity would do so. It literaly had proof that the Doctor is powerless against it (it managed to attempt to bully him into saying his name by threatning his friends - obviously if there was something he could do he would have done it then) - it only needed to kill him, nothing more. Then, it's free to continue doing the whatever-it-is-that-it-wants-to-do which the Doctor was stopping so far. Just dosen't make sense.

Edit:

Spoiler:
plus, a lot of the explanations you provided are nothing more than educated guesses. I can make those guesses too, and mine are as good as yours (in this case, they happen to be the same guesses exactly). However, such things should really not be left for the viewer to guess. The Doctor could easily have mumbled miserably, "It's a trap, it's all a trap... the G.I made that man kill all those women just so that he'll be sentenced to death... and then the G.I came to it in his time of despair, as he was facing the gallows, and told him he had a chance to live, IF he delivered a message to the detective who caught him...". Such an explanation would be cool, and show us how evil and cunning the G.I is. Plus it will actualy, you know, explain what's going on in the episode to the viewers. Sadly, nothing of the sort happened. It's a shame.

The Exchange

The thing is Moffat is bad at metaplot he just can't seem to get the pacing right about how and when to put the information in the viewers hands resulting in the rushed not enough information when it comes time to draw things to a close.

In many ways the finale is an inverse of usual, the episode itself doesn't flow properly and the inconsistancies kinda stick out but the metainformation is delivered quite well and sets the anniversary up very strongly.


Lord Snow wrote:

Now that the episode has some more time to tumble in my mind, I realise I actualy DON'T like something about it:

** spoiler omitted **

Regarding ASYLUM OF THE DALEKS and the whole thing:

Spoiler:
Clara's job is to save the Doctor from the Great Intelligence. In most cases she does so without him being aware of it (the only times he was aware out it were ASYLUM and the Christmas special). In the case of ASYLUM, maybe the GI was on the spaceship Clara was on and she took him out before (or during) the crash?

The Exchange

Werthead wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:

Now that the episode has some more time to tumble in my mind, I realise I actualy DON'T like something about it:

** spoiler omitted **

Regarding ASYLUM OF THE DALEKS and the whole thing:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Look, I'm not saying that there's no concievable way that everything could fit togather - there are several, I'm sure, and your explanation works just fine. What annoys me is that the episode fails to even address the issue, creating a kind of gut feeling by my side that the writers are not even awere that there *is* a problem... I somehow feel like we'll not only never know exactly how did the remarkable coincidence of Clara saving the Doctor from Skaro when she's actualy there to save him from an entirely different threat came to be, but also that The Doctor woudn't care, and he wouldn't question it. Because he questions nothing these days. Except for the origin of Clara's milk for the souflle, of course.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Spoiler:
Who said Clara's job was just to save him from the GI?

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