The new series of Doctor Who starts this Saturday on the BBC.


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Shadow Lodge

stringburka:

Spoiler:

The Daleks that converted Oswin are unsane, even by Dalek standards. The normal rules of genocidal insistance of Dalek purity don't necessarily apply to them because they've all been locked up on a planet where all the walls are padded.

And as I've said, the Doctor DID figure out that not everything was kosher. He didn't ask "Where did you get the milk?" because he wanted to have cookies later.

Oswin herself was, if not insane in the same way as the Daleks of the asylum, deeply delusional and in denial about her status. If she can manage to ignore the fact that she doesn't have arms or legs, etc, simply changing the voice output on the PA system to support her delusion is a rather minor thing.

As for Moffat vs RTD on the sexism issue, call me when Moffat reduces a character to blow-job machine / slab of pavement. Until then, nobody can even remotely claim that Moffat isn't a major improvement.

Continuity: The fact that RTD had Skaro involved in the Time War at all shows that he didn't have much use for continuity (again, Skaro was destroyed in the episode Rememberance of the Daleks).

Moffat's continuity is a lot more complicated, but that's because he's doing something fairly revolutionary with the show...he's actually examining time travel as more than a method of transport from point A to point B. This is something that both classic Who (with some exceptions) and RTD nuWho were both guilty of...time travel was very VERY rarely used interestingly. Moffat is very good with writing stories that later reveal themselvees to have non-linear elements (see season 5 throughout).

More later....

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LazarX wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
stringburka wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Re: Skarro

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Spoiler:
Good point. Though if the past is being changed, maybe we're going to see something new.
Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:
As for Moffat vs RTD on the sexism issue, call me when Moffat reduces a character to blow-job machine / slab of pavement. Until then, nobody can even remotely claim that Moffat isn't a major improvement.**

Hey, Rory even went as far to take on his wife's name.


Matthew Morris wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
stringburka wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Re: Skarro

** spoiler omitted **
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spoiler:

I just want to be included in Spoiler Fest 2012! ;-)


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
stringburka wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Re: Skarro

** spoiler omitted **
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Also:

EXPLOSIVE RUNES! ;-)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:

stringburka:

Spoiler:
And as I've said, the Doctor DID figure out that not everything was kosher. He didn't ask "Where did you get the milk?" because he wanted to have cookies later.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Cookies? naah, he was looking for custard for his fish fingers.

Mark Norfolk wrote:


As for the 'articles' to support your arguement - hardly an unbiased critique of the show. And the Bechdel seems a crude tool and the wrong one to apply to a show with a limited cast with a male central character. A failure is scored unless two women talk to each other about any thing other than a man. So a woman talking to a man about a non-male subject is a fail - isn't that also sexist? Implying that a woman talking talking to a man is about sex even when it isn't?

The Bechdel test is a crude tool. It's intended to be. Passing it doesn't guaranteed the feminist seal of approval. Failing it doesn't mean it's sexist. It's a broad rule of thumb. Really only useful when you look at what it implies and how low a percentage of common media actually pass.

The thing it's looking for is women doing things that aren't focused on or linked to men. Talking to a man about non-male subjects doesn't count, because the man is still there. Two women talking about a man doesn't count for obvious reasons. It's not implying that they're talking or thinking about sex, it's implying that women aren't important except in how they relate to men, whether that's sexual or not.

If you think about a reverse Bechdel test: 2 men talk to each other about anything other than a woman, passes are far more common. Both in Doctor Who I suspect, and in the media at large.

Doctor Who has a lead male character, so you'd expect it to be fairly low. A lot of stuff will revolve around him. The interesting thing isn't that, but the difference between the Moffat and RTD episodes. They also featured a male lead character, but only around a fifth as many episodes failed.

As a side note, I don't think Moffat's scores aren't actually that bad. Bechdel test scores are often abysmal. RTD's were surprisingly good.


Mark Norfolk wrote:
As for the 'articles' to support your arguement - hardly an unbiased critique of the show. And the Bechdel seems a crude tool and the wrong one to apply to a show with a limited cast with a male central character. A failure is scored unless two women talk to each other about any thing other than a man. So a woman talking to a man about a non-male subject is a fail - isn't that also sexist? Implying that a woman talking talking to a man is about sex even when it isn't?

Following up, it has been pointed out to me several times that the Twilight franchise passes the Bechdel test.


the prequel is worth watching :)

Just watched it. Without spoiling it adds to the storyline and somehow should have been advertised/included in episode.

Shadow Lodge

thejeff wrote:


As a side note, I don't think Moffat's scores aren't actually that bad. Bechdel test scores are often abysmal. RTD's were surprisingly good.

I'm not surprised that AotD fails....there were really only two female characters in the episode, and I don't remember them actually speaking directly to each other.


Anyone else think Dr. Who is just some schitzophrenic in a padded room somewhere?


thejeff wrote:


The Bechdel test is a crude tool. It's intended to be. Passing it doesn't guaranteed the feminist seal of approval. Failing it doesn't mean it's sexist. It's a broad rule of thumb.

Oh, Paizo, thy name is irony...

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.

TCG, that reminds me of one of the strongest episodes of Buffy.

Shadow Lodge

By the way, regarding the fact that the Daleks also call him the Oncoming Storm....that title was actually referenced at the end of the episode.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
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Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Anyone else think Dr. Who is just some schitzophrenic in a padded room somewhere?

The Joss Whedon forums are two doors down, hang a left.

<--------------

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Although he COULD be a mind lost in the Time Lords' Matrix....

Scary thing is, within the Doctor Who universe, that's actually plausible...


DeathQuaker wrote:

Although he COULD be a mind lost in the Time Lords' Matrix....

Scary thing is, within the Doctor Who universe, that's actually plausible...

Suddenly we find Colin Baker never left the Matrix and the past 25+ years never happened.


Kthulhu wrote:

stringburka:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Quote:
The Daleks that converted Oswin are unsane, even by Dalek standards. The normal rules of genocidal insistance of Dalek purity don't necessarily apply to them because they've all been locked up on a planet where all the walls are padded.

Wasn't the conversion made by the automated system like the others? They don't mention this. It is POSSIBLE, but do you see how many things we are to assume that goes against what they hint at?

Quote:
Oswin herself was, if not insane in the same way as the Daleks of the asylum

About that... In what way where the Daleks insane? We're never told what makes them worse than normal Daleks, and they act like all other Daleks.

Quote:
deeply delusional and in denial about her status. If she can manage to ignore the fact that she doesn't have arms or legs, etc, simply changing the voice output on the PA system to support her delusion is a rather minor thing.

Except there wouldn't be any reason for a dalek-only facility to have different voice outputs with her voice in it. Or did she unconsciously program something that reads her mind and how she remembers her own voice and recreates this digitally? Really?

The thing is... This could have made sense. This could actually have made an excellent episode, where they explore what a race such as the Dalek would consider mental illness, where a Dalek that believed it was human was put into intensive care but hacked the system and helped the Doctor.

I could've bought this whole thing storywise, if they had just EXPLAINED more. It wouldn't even have had to be an all-verbal explanation, just some hints around that meant we didn't have to make all these kinds of contrived explanations for stuff that really doesn't make sense.

And still... Converting humans? It _makes no sense_. Last time anyone tried it that led to an actual revolt among the otherwise so obedient Daleks (Daleks in Manhattan) - and here we have a whole planet with an automated system for it!

Quote:
As for Moffat vs RTD on the sexism issue, call me when Moffat reduces a character to blow-job machine / slab of pavement. Until then, nobody can even remotely claim that Moffat isn't a major improvement.

Yeah, because that's where we should set our standard (Hint: No, it's not). And a major improvement from what?

And saying that "nobody can even remotely claim" is kind of an obnoxious attitude towards critical analysis -

Quote:
Continuity: The fact that RTD had Skaro involved in the Time War at all shows that he didn't have much use for continuity (again, Skaro was destroyed in the episode Rememberance of the Daleks).

Eeeexcept Skaro was swapped with Antalin (War of the Daleks) so that the original Skaro survived - this is something that is explained in the series. I'd be fine with Skaro surviving again _if they mentioned it happening_.

Quote:
Moffat's continuity is a lot more complicated, but that's because he's doing something fairly revolutionary with the show...he's actually examining time travel as more than a method of transport from point A to point B.

He's basically completely ignoring the rules we're told over and over again earlier in the series, which where only rarely broken (don't cross your own timeline) which in itself opens up to a lot of stupid stuff like teaching yourself stuff so you can teach yourself stuff. Yes, that also happened during the 10th doctor in the episodes Blink and Time Crash, but both of those where also written by Moffat.

There's an in-universe REASON that time travel is mainly used for transportation. Because you don't want to get eaten by reapers.

Quote:
I'm not surprised that AotD fails....there were really only two female characters in the episode, and I don't remember them actually speaking directly to each other.

Yeah, but you know why there's only two female characters and why they don't talk to each other? Because _somebody wrote it like that_.

And while the bechdel test is a crude tool to measure a single movie or a single episode, it's a very valid tool to measure the existence and relevance of females in a series (or a genre, or anything that's more than just an episode or two). If a series manages less that 75% or so, then there's usually something wrong. Now, many shows suffer from this - because it's a sexist industry - but others.

Note: Others include doctor who reboot series 1-4, where about 80% of episodes passed, compared to now where less than 1/3 of episodes pass.

Of course, passing is no guarantee for not being sexist, and there are issues with sexism in the reboot 1-4 too, but there's a huge difference between now and then.

Just saw the latest episode though, which was far better. There were issues, but not nearly as much as AotD. One could do a full comparision, but I'll just list a few things I thought where big differences:

Spoiler:

- The story made (mostly) sense. There weren't any huge plotholes and the Doctor actually tried to find out what was going on.
- The females of the story where an active part of the action instead of being constantly saved.
- There where sexist characters, but the sexism was confronted. This is what I was talking about with the difference of a show with a sexist world and a sexist show (not to say there were no issues, but not in the same ballpark as AotD)
- There was a named non-white person there. That didn't die. That's like the first time in a looong while.

Shadow Lodge

Spoiler:

If the conversion were made by the nanocloud, then Oswin would look like Jenna-Louise Coleman, only with a Dalek eyestalk sticking out of her forehead. They specifically made a point of saying that the Daleks chose her to perform a full conversion on because she was a genius. Hell, it even showed a flashback of them capturing her.

It's hard for me to take the rest of your complaints seriously when you didn't pick up fairly obvious plot points.

They DID tell us that Skaro was back....in this episode. RE: War of the Daleks, spin-off media isn't really considered canon.

"Converting humans? It _makes no sense_."

Neither does banging your own head against a wall continuously, but some insane people do that.

Would you rather they wrote extraneous female characters that are pointless to the story just so that Amy will have someone to talk to about something that isn't the Doctor or Rory. Maybe we can call them the Bledsel extras.

Dinosaurs on a Spaceship was fun little romp, but it was definitely no Asylum of the Daleks.

Shadow Lodge

DeathQuaker wrote:
And the show forced me to take back my "oh no Daleks" whining earlier--they actually made that episode good. Now if we can be without them for a little while still, though....

In my opinon, Asylum is the best Dalek story of nuWho yet.


Spoiler:
I quite liked OSwin and was sad she was a dalek. Are we sure the daleks didn't take the doctor to an alternate universe. Didn't they build a void ship before.

Doesn't the Betchdel test make all silent movies fail it. So if I made a silent movie about women getting the right to vote it would be sexist?

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darth_borehd wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:

Although he COULD be a mind lost in the Time Lords' Matrix....

Scary thing is, within the Doctor Who universe, that's actually plausible...

Suddenly we find Colin Baker never left the Matrix and the past 25+ years never happened.

It would explain Mel's lack of backstory at least...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kthulhu wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
And the show forced me to take back my "oh no Daleks" whining earlier--they actually made that episode good. Now if we can be without them for a little while still, though....
In my opinon, Asylum is the best Dalek story of nuWho yet.

I think that the Moffat/Smith era has finally found it's stride...

Cheers
Mark


doctor_wu wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Doesn't the Betchdel test make all silent movies fail it. So if I made a silent movie about women getting the right to vote it would be sexist?

No.

Grand Lodge

I have liked the first two episodes of the new season. The overall story arch does not seem as purposeful as in the prior Matt Smith seasons. In the first season we had the "Crack in Amy's Wall" that lead to a climax of the Pandorica. And last season we had the "Death of the Doctor" to keep our attention. The first two episodes, IMHO were simply that, episodes. There are hints of a over-arching theme, but it is not as central to the stories as it was in the first two Matt Smith seasons. We know we are heading toward the departure of Amy Pond. But instead of making this a primary theme, we are having good quality episodes where Amy and Roy are along for the ride. And where is River Song?

Cheers,

Mazra


In prison I presume, or at a point in her timeline that doesn't cross the Doctor's. I don't mind her absence, she's best in small, very separate doses IMO. Have her around too long and she starts to grate on me.

I'm pretty sure she's mostly done with, anyhow, now that her story's mostly played out. And with the Ponds on the exit, she might be pretty much fully out of future plots.

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Mazra,

I think the arc of this series is the passing of the Doctor from the remembrance of the universe. Hatred of the Doctor had strengthened the daleks, and now that's gone. Something similar happens with Solomon. I think we'll see that theme develop.

Also, there is a notable increase in the Doctor's ruthlessness. "A good man doesn't need rules." The Doctor has a lot of them, but he seems to be finding loopholes this series.


Chris Mortika wrote:
Also, there is a notable increase in the Doctor's ruthlessness. "A good man doesn't need rules." The Doctor has a lot of them, but he seems to be finding loopholes this series.

Which, in the past, has been a constant reason for his picking up Companions - they keep him grounded and more or less sane. But now he's not actively traveling with anyone (much like Tennant was between Martha and Donna) and only picks up his friends on occasional, months-between visits... meaning he's likely slipping back into old bad habits.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
stringburka wrote:

Spoiler:

- There was a named non-white person there. That didn't die. That's like the first time in a looong while..

Spoiler:
He was kind of dead already. He'd just forgotten that fact.

This story is in one way a very different Dalek story, as opposed to being one of standard menace, this one definitely evokes classic horror as well. That seems to be the ongoing theme of Moffat, Horror, Fantasy of a very midieval stripe, sometimes both.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Orthos wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Also, there is a notable increase in the Doctor's ruthlessness. "A good man doesn't need rules." The Doctor has a lot of them, but he seems to be finding loopholes this series.
Which, in the past, has been a constant reason for his picking up Companions - they keep him grounded and more or less sane. But now he's not actively traveling with anyone (much like Tennant was between Martha and Donna) and only picks up his friends on occasional, months-between visits... meaning he's likely slipping back into old bad habits.

It's problematic. Being a Companion is a much more risky business these days, and I have a feeling we're going to find just how big the stakes truly are for anyone who ventures inside that blue box. The Doctor is trying to find some way to balance the necessity of Companionship and the risks he puts them through.

Grand Lodge

Orthos wrote:
Have her around too long and she starts to grate on me.

To each their own. For me, many of my favorite episodes had one thing in common, and that was River Song. Maybe her time has past. But I sure hope not. YMMV.

The overall theme is far more subtle this season than in the previous two seasons. Maybe it will be the kind that will give us a thread here and there to really wow us in the end. I guess we will see. All I am certain is that the previous two season of Dr. Who IMHO has been some of the best ever made. I am looking forward to see where we go with the Daleks and Dinosaurs on a spaceship. ;)

Cheers,

Mazra

Shadow Lodge

LazarX wrote:


It's problematic. Being a Companion is a much more risky business these days...

Tell that to Katrina, Sara Kingdom, Adric, Kamelion, and Peri.

nuWho has yet to actually kill a companion. It made a lot of noise about both Rose and Donna, but their "deaths" were symbolic.

Shadow Lodge

Note on Skaro.

Spoiler:
It was destroyed in Rememberance of the Daleks, when the 7th Doctor did the Timelord equivelent of nuking the planet. I remember hearing (don't ask me where) that RTD retconned it and Genesis of the Daleks as early events of the time war.

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Kthulhu wrote:
LazarX wrote:


It's problematic. Being a Companion is a much more risky business these days...

Tell that to Katrina, Sara Kingdom, Adric, Kamelion, and Peri.

nuWho has yet to actually kill a companion. It made a lot of noise about both Rose and Donna, but their "deaths" were symbolic.

Spoiler:

Well, there's the suggestion Peri is alive and well after all and her death was a manipulation of events, though we still saw her death and its aftermath onscreen--a pretty horrible one at that. And yeah, OldWho was not exactly delicate about death--if anything, sometimes it got even more brutal.

Kerney

Spoiler:
The 7th Doctor did aim the Hand of Omega at Skaro. Whether it was planned this way or RTD just forgot, the Daleks do have time travel capability (that goes as far back as The Chase), it is possible they tried to go back in time to prevent this from happening, which probably would have indeed been considered the starting moves of the Time War (that and/or the Time Lords would consider the Daleks seeking out the Hand of Omega the first act of aggression). In fact it would be interesting to consider the Daleks in The Chase actually fairly far future Daleks trying to go back in time to kill the Doctor before he ever becomes a real danger to them.

This gets messy and timey wimey as to what really did happen in Classic Who and what can be remembered, but as to Skaro--it's possible they managed it so that the Hand was diverted somehow from Skaro and destroyed something else, so the events of the episode as seen happened, except that what the Doctor thinks of as Skaro being destroyed is another planet or something.

Shadow Lodge

I'd have to assume that the Daleks consider Genesis of the Daleks to be the first salvo in the Time War.

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Kthulhu wrote:
I'd have to assume that the Daleks consider Genesis of the Daleks to be the first salvo in the Time War.

I thought I read a comment by RTD that the Daleks considered it exactly that.

Sczarni

Spoiler:
Or maybe the events that undid the destruction of Skaro are more recent -- and The Doctor is being "forgotten" by the universe a lot faster than he realizes!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

My Crazy Theory:
I speculate that once the Doctor meets the *real* souffle girl, the rest of the season will involve him trying to work out a way to save her from the fate described in Asylum of the Daleks *without* erasing the consequences of that fate—that is, without making the episode "unhappen." I predict that those actions will be shown to have had repercussions that explain some of the odd things we've seen (and will continue to see) since.

Grand Lodge

"On the fields of Trensalore, at the fall of the 11th, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never, ever be answered."

I just wonder how far we are away from this? I hope it will be a long while. And I wonder if this is something planned for this season, or a foreshadowing of the eventual end of the Matt Smith era as Dr. Who?

spoiler:
And how souffle girl will fit in this. I like your theory Vic. Dr. Who likes to pay his debts. Maybe he is working out a scheme to save her. Or even stranger, will Dr. Who have a Dalek as a companion?


Tonight: Ben Browder, and a cyborg gunslinger.


-laughter- Rory is my favorite companion right after the Brigader

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Not to do with the current series, but as an FYI to fans:

Janet Fielding has cancer. In order to help keep her spirits up, Peter Davison recently organized a Doctor Who convention, "Project MotorMouth," to raise money for Project MotorHouse, a project Fielding has been devoted to (it's a plan to renovate a museum/concert hall to revitalize and bring jobs to a town in the UK). While the convention has already sold out just wanted you guys to know what was going on. Per a recent Twitter from Fielding, there should be other opportunities to contribute to Project MotorHouse as well.


Sucks to hear =/ Hope the charity works out well.

----

Next week is Amy and Rory's final episode

Spoiler:
and the return of the Angels. In New York.

On the upside it looks like they're back to warping people into the past as in "Blink" and not just randomly killing folks like they were in "Time of the Angels".

Also the crouching baby angel statue at the very beginning of the previews looks exactly like a statue my neighbors have in their yard. So yeah.

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DeathQuaker wrote:

Not to do with the current series, but as an FYI to fans:

Janet Fielding has cancer. In order to help keep her spirits up, Peter Davison recently organized a Doctor Who convention, "Project MotorMouth," to raise money for Project MotorHouse, a project Fielding has been devoted to (it's a plan to renovate a museum/concert hall to revitalize and bring jobs to a town in the UK). While the convention has already sold out just wanted you guys to know what was going on. Per a recent Twitter from Fielding, there should be other opportunities to contribute to Project MotorHouse as well.

Thank you for the info. I'll have to find some cash to send, if nothing else to thank Ms. Fielding for the enjoyment she gave me in my childhood.

Aside, Lis Sladden, Mary Tamm, and now Janet Fielding. I think we've just found another hazzard of travelling with the Doctor. It may cause cancer.

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Matthew Morris wrote:


Thank you for the info. I'll have to find some cash to send, if nothing else to thank Ms. Fielding for the enjoyment she gave me in my childhood.

Aside, Lis Sladden, Mary Tamm, and now Janet Fielding. I think we've just found another hazzard of travelling with the Doctor. It may cause cancer.

Per her Twitter she's been very touched by the outpourings of support, and I'm sure she'd appreciate it.

I wouldn't list her amongst those we've lost just yet. :) But it is confounding and saddening to think of the recent deaths--Caroline John died of cancer as well--I hope that awful disease will some day be a thing easily treated and deaths from cancer largely a thing of the past.

Dark Archive

Orthos wrote:
Next week is Amy and Rory's final episode** spoiler omitted **

I've seen a pic that made me *squee*....

Spoiler:
Hmmm, what big statue is just outside Manhattan?


i was disapointed with last weeks episode compared to the first 2 episodes this year but it was nice to see a mention of a classic.


Nevynxxx wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Next week is Amy and Rory's final episode** spoiler omitted **

I've seen a pic that made me *squee*....

** spoiler omitted **

OH FFFFFFFFFFF


She's made of bronze, not stone, fortunately. Plus, she's French.

Grand Lodge

spoiler:
Actually I thought the episode with the little black cubes was interesting. No. It does not come close to a Torchwood like plot where no one ever dies. But it was an interesting dilemma for the Doctor. As I have mentioned before, overall though, the episodes seem more formulaic than in the previous Matt Smith season. I agree that the Doctor is edgier, even angrier, and that may be part of a larger plot point. I like it when there is a defined ongoing plot like in the past two seasons (crack in Amy's wall or the Death of the Doctor). I was watching Warehouse 13 last night and noted the well written ongoing plot point in that series. Don't get me wrong. Doctor Who is still one of the best things on the tube. It just feels like something is missing.

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