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Ok, this question is about the RAW, feel free to mention the RAI but i already know what i think about it.
Sohei says....
Weapon Training (Ex)
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon.
Weapon Master (Fighter) says....
Weapon Training (Ex)
At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.This ability replaces Armor Training 1, 2, 3 and 4.
So my question is this, if you are a 3rd level Weapon master, you gain weapon training.
Does that then let you flurry with it?
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at 6th level of sohei... yes, before 6th no
I disagree. Sohei states he can flurry with any weapon in which he has weapon training. It does not specify that has to be gained through the Sohei class feature. How do you support your argument?
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at 6th level of sohei... yes, before 6th noI disagree. Sohei states he can flurry with any weapon in which he has weapon training. It does not specify that has to be gained through the Sohei class feature. How do you support your argument?
I believe his thinking is that at Sohei 6/Weapon Master 3 he would have two weapon training groups, and you would be able to flurry with both. at Sohei 5/Weapon Master 3, you would not have gained the ability stating you can flurry with weapon training, and thus could not.
Which makes sense to me.
at 6th level of sohei... yes, before 6th noI disagree. Sohei states he can flurry with any weapon in which he has weapon training. It does not specify that has to be gained through the Sohei class feature. How do you support your argument?
You have to gain the Sohei Feature before it states you can flurry with weapons you have weapon training with. At that point you can go nuts and flurry with any number of weapons that no one else can guns included.
Not saying my reading is right, but I think it's possible the ability could be read as "At 6th level, the Sohei gets weapon training. Oh and by the way, the Sohei can flurry with any weapon they have weapon training with."
Although this does basically mean that making a fighter with twf you could instead of taking twf feats you could take a level in Sohei, so I'd probably rule against it.
Not saying my reading is right, but I think it's possible the ability could be read as "At 6th level, the Sohei gets weapon training. Oh and by the way, the Sohei can flurry with any weapon they have weapon training with."
Although this does basically mean that making a fighter with twf you could instead of taking twf feats you could take a level in Sohei, so I'd probably rule against it.
If that were the case, the ability to flurry typically would have been listed before 6th level in the class ability list. As written the ability doesn't come into effect until the sohei class gets the ability, at which point any class that also gives the identically named ability would count/benefit.
Not saying my reading is right, but I think it's possible the ability could be read as "At 6th level, the Sohei gets weapon training. Oh and by the way, the Sohei can flurry with any weapon they have weapon training with."
Although this does basically mean that making a fighter with twf you could instead of taking twf feats you could take a level in Sohei, so I'd probably rule against it.
And this reading was the reason for the question.
I was reading the archtype and it just kinda hit me.
And for the record, I would never allow this in a home game.
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The ability to use Flurry of Blows with any weapon he has Weapon Training with is clearly listed as part of the 6th level Weapon Training ability he gets.
Would you say that a Foehammer's Weapon Training prevents him from picking up spears with the Sohei's Weapon Training? I would think not, and it's because they're two separate abilities that give access to the same basic function with their own particular riders.
Only the Sohei version of Weapon Training grants the ability to Flurry with any weapon you have Weapon Training with. Until you gain that, Weapon Training from other sources has no impact on what you can/cannot do with Weapon Training, so a Weapon Master 3 / Sohei 1 cannot flurry with, say, a nodachi he selected with his Weapon Master Weapon Trainning, but a Weapon Master 3 / Sohei 6 could.
Note the way it's even laid out:
"Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon."
The portion stating the Sohei can flurry with weapons he has weapon training with is not some rider or side note, it is clearly listed as part of the ability, right before it tells you what he gives up for this ability.
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I posted this on the other thread and will do so here because I am trying to understand why there is an argument.
I am confused by your interpretation. Sohei weapon training says:
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.
Now at what point does the qualifier at the beginner of this paragraph stop applying? By your logic at 1st level a Sohei not only can flurry with weapons if he has weapon training but a Sohei/Ninja could spend points from his ki pool to make his mount invisible since:
At 4th level, a sohei may spend 1 point from his ki pool to grant his mount temporary hit points equal to twice his level for 1 hour per level. In addition, as long as the sohei and his mount are adjacent, including when mounted, the mount gains any of the following abilities the sohei possesses: AC bonus, diamond soul, evasion, high jump, improved evasion, ki strike (as long as the sohei has at least 1 point in his ki pool), perfect self, and still mind. When a sohei spends points from his ki pool, his mount gains the same benefits as the sohei.
Its his ki pool right? Not his sohei ki pool. So 1st level sohei lets you in addition to what listed at 1st level, where most people go to see what abilities they gain also can:
1. Flurry with weapons in which they have weapon training, even though its listed under a 6th level ability and not flurry which is gained at 1st level.
2. Provide their mount with the same abilities they gain when they spend a ki point even though this ability is listed under 4th level.
any other abilities you want to point out that they get at 1st level? Just curious because I have to go through all the classes and seen what else they get at first level that is written under 2nd, 3rd, 15th or 18th abilities for example.
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You do not gain the benefits of class features before you have them. Period. This needs to be dealt with, and cannot just be ignored.
If someone can find an example of the above being untrue (class features with benefits prior to gaining them) , then we can meaningfully have a discussion here.
Otherwise, the text in the Sohei feature is meaningless until you are Sohei 6.
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HOLY GOD OF NECROMANCY AND ALL THAT IS UNDEAD.
Did you realize it was a 2012 thread?
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Did you realize it was a 2012 thread?
Yes, and rather than continue the derail of a different thread we moved the discussion to where it belonged.
Sigh...
Look the sohei at lvl 6 gets a single class ability called weapon training. That ability does two things. First it gives an ability identical to weapon training from fighters with selected weapons. Second it grants anyone with that class ability with the ability of the same name as the fighter weapon training the ability to flurry with those weapons and finally it lets you apply a monk ki feature of the sohei to those weapons.
I honestly do not see why this is debated honestly. Its a single ability. That modifies flurry of blows in addition to the other things. If you do not losses the SOHEI weapon trait Inc ability you have no ability to flurry with non monk weapons. The identical fighter ability allows a sohei 6/ weapon master 3 to flurry with a sword. The weapon training of the weapon master does not have the language necessary to allow a sohei 1/ weapon master 3 to flurry with a sword.
Ill repeat THIS IS AN ABILITY GRANTED BY A LEVEL 6 SOHEI ABIMITY. If you don't have a 100% identical class feature you can't do it. And the only way is to be... a level 6 sohei.
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Does that then let you flurry with it?
Not until he has 6 levels in Sohei to get Sohei's Weapon Training.
Classes are written single classed, there is even a rule saying so, and while written single classed anything required refers to that thing the single classed Sohei gains and nothing outside it.
Krispy the only one I can think of that comes close is Paladins and Ranger being able to use wands of spells on their spell list before they access spells. I think that has to do specifically with wands and not other types of magic items.
That is not a class ability. That is a clarification on the intention for a casting class to use the item before they actually gain caster levels.
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That is a clarification on the intention for a casting class to use the item before they actually gain caster levels.
It is important to note that this is the opposite of 3.5 (where you could not activate until you could cast), so we all understand they deliberately changed it.
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It is important to note that this is the opposite of 3.5 (where you could not activate until you could cast), so we all understand they deliberately changed it.
Spell Trigger
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
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Yep, we have repeatedly shown the FAQ link for that and they somehow imagine it does not apply
Actually it does apply, but the other way around. A Sohei at level 1 has gained Weapon Training because their class (Weapon Master) says they gained it.
All of the arguments here basically state you must acquire the Sohei Weapon Training to flurry. As I linked in the other post their is no such thing. Their is not a "Sohei version" and a "Fighter version". Not only does one reference the other, but one of the game designers outright stated that just because wording may be slightly different between books, all versions are the same. Game Design
So, Sohei 1/Weapon Master 3 has access to the Sohei version. Because they are the same ability and Sohei can use that ability with flurry.
Is it good or bad that it works? I'm sure plenty of people here can analyze and figure out if this route is efficient or not. I'd expect that compared to other builds its not overpowered versus other less debated options.
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What you fail to comprehend is the ability to use flurry with weapons in which they have weapon training does not come til level 6. If it was something they gained at level 1 it would be listed at level 1 not level 6. It is confirmed by the faq. You do not look for abilities from your class down the list you look at what you gain at level 1 and that is it.
If they wanted Sohei to flurry with weapon training weapons before they get it through Sohei levels then it would have had to have been part of Flurry not Weapon Training.
How many other classes do you need to look at higher level abilities to see what you get at level 1, the answer is none.
You can continue to argue it if you wish but the faq and facts are obvious. The entire paragraph starts at 6th level... so I just don't see how you can read it any other way.
No actually there /is/ a sohei version and a fighter verson. The sohei has a class feature with an identical name that uses nearly identical mechanics.
Those differences are 1) limited selection 2) permission to use that class feature with flurry of blows and a sohei specific ki power.
No version of fighter weapon training has a reference to flurry of blows. It only exists in the sohei.. at level 6.
If there was no difference between the Sohei Weapon Training and the Fighter Weapon Training, one would think a Fighter could change out the Bonus Feats gained via Monk levels using the mechanic contained in the Fighter's Bonus Feat entry. But, you can't.
You can't make use of benefits from the Sohei's Weapon Training until you've gained the level necessary to get that perk via ordinary Sohei progression. If there was language in either entry stating that levels stack for the purpose of determining progression with the ability (e.g., like Wiz/Sorc familiars can or with Improved Uncanny Dodge or with different versions of Sneak Attack or with the bloodline progression of a Sorc/DD) then this would work. Since there isn't such language, it does not work.
Sohei and weapon master weapon training are blatantly different. you can't chose net as a sohei weapon trainig, you can with the weapon master one.
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There are two versions of the ability- just like there are different versions of ki pools (I count five right now, rogue talent, ninja, monk, drunken master, ki mystic). It is plainly obvious that each of them is different than the other in some way despite being the same general ability. Therefor, different versions.
At level six a sohei gets their own version of weapon training which has its own rules. If you are not a level six sohei and gain a different version of weapon training from another source, you follow the rules of that source until you have an ability that says otherwise. Do you have weapon training before level six? Yes. Is it sohei weapon training? No.
In a nutshell the question being asked is this:
Question: Do I get the benefits of an ability that I do not have because I have a similar ability gained at an earlier level from some other source?
Answer: No. You only gain the abilities you have when you get them. You do not look into the future to apply retroactive benefits for abilities you do not yet posses. The only exception to this would be where an ability specifically says that it works this way.
Use of the rule of common sense when applying raw helps as well. Take a real life example used as literally as seen here:
When at work you are paid x dollars per hour.
This is a future ability gained at the point once at work.
However, under your interpretation of raw it is reasonable to expect that if I were to head to work two hours earlier than normal and wait in the parking lot/lobby/at my desk without clocking in, that because I am at work I should get paid despite it not being my scheduled time to work (whether or not I clock in is irrelevant because it is being 'at' work that matters).
This is a case of ignoring the obvious and requesting an FAQ for something that does not need one.
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That text does not appear in the Leather bound PHB that contains errata. It is a link on a site that isn't wizard's site. So how do I know that text even comes from WoTC?
I can confirm that "level Paladin", "3rd level Paladin", "who can't", and pretty much none of that is in the book. The printed book.
I'll grant you the possibility that WotC said "you know what, we are not going to print 3.5 any more, but we should work to improve it a bit, so here you go" after the Leatherbound PHB.
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That text does not appear in the Leather bound PHB that contains errata. It is a link on a site that isn't wizard's site. So how do I know that text even comes from WoTC?
I can confirm that "level Paladin", "3rd level Paladin", "who can't", and pretty much none of that is in the book. The printed book.
I'll grant you the possibility that WotC said "you know what, we are not going to print 3.5 any more, but we should work to improve it a bit, so here you go" after the Leatherbound PHB.
Magic Item rules were not printed in the PHB. They were printed in the DMG. Do you have a leather bound DMG with errata to check?
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It has been asserted that you aren't allowed to look at abilities you don't have, and that the Weapon Training gained by Sohei at 6th is a different thing than Weapon Training gained by fighters.
What does Weapon Training give you? +1 to attack and damage with certain weapons? Not according to 'Sohei Weapon Training':-
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.
There is nothing in there about +1 to attack and damage. So 'Sohei Weapon Training' does nothing? This is absurd!
Well, it does say, '...as the fighter class feature...'
So, if the 'Sohei Weapon Training' is a different thing than fighter Weapon Training, then a single class Sohei 6 doesn't have fighter weapon training. Yet he must be able to look at a feature that he doesn't have, or his own Weapon Training doesn't function. And if he can look at an ability he doesn't have, so can the Sohei 1/weaponmaster 3.
The only other possibility is the there is no such thing as 'Sohei Weapon Training', only Weapon Training. If that's the case (and per SKR's quoted text about things either being the same or being different), then the Sohei 1/weaponmaster 3 has it, and when Sohei have Weapon Training then they can flurry with those weapons.
Sohei with Weapon Training. Not some Sohei, not a subset of Sohei, not 6th level Sohei. Just 'Sohei with Weapon Training'.
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The difference is between getting Weapon Training at Sohei 6 and looking back to what Weapon Training is, and getting Weapon Training at Weaponmaster 3 and looking forward to what Weapon Training is.
Did you FAQ it, by the way?
The order of events is irrelevant. If you have it, then you have it. If you don't, then you don't.
As SKR says, if things are the same then they're the same. Weapon Training is the same thing no matter which class gives it to you. There is no sohei Weapon Training, just Weapon Training.
And sohei can flurry with any weapon in which they have Weapon Training. How they got Weapon Training doesn't make a difference.
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The order of events is irrelevant.The order of levels is.
You just made that up! That's not in Pathfinder or D&D 3rd ed rules.
Did you FAQ it?
Yes, despite my growing disenchantment with the FAQ process.
I started by thinking it was brilliant, but recently I had a question with over 120 FAQ requests ignored, and the whole 'totally made up unwritten rules about TWFing' made me lose a lot of respect for the whole process. : (
Slightly off topic but I saw a few posts about class abilities functioning before you gain them.
In my group there is a void touched starsoul sorceress who has been using her level nine blood line ability since level three due to its wonky wording explicitly letting you do that.
In this case it looks like the class was written with the assumption that you start as a sohei and gain levels as a sohei. So modifications to abilities granted by the class are listed when they would first come into play. Since the FAQ I last saw said if the ability name is the same as the fighter's ability than it functions the same. This has the same name so the listed differences appear to be how levels of sohei modify the ability vice the ability having the same name but intending to be something entirely different. Especially considering how they went to lengths to change the name of weapon training for so many archetypes and specified that those abilities were altered and did not act as regular weapon training due to a new ability name.
No the difference is your player with the void touched is basically using a typo to cheat. Also ignoring the first part of the power "Voidfield (Sp): At 9th level, you can create an a..." along with the knowledge of how every sorc bloodline works.there is a line at lvl 9 on sorcerer. Chart that lists "bloodline power" every bloodline in the game has identical blooine power progression.
As far as sohei goes ill repeat what I said above fighter weapon training does not have the wording needed to flurry.
"Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group."
Hey look sohei or flurry not mentioned once.
"Weapon Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd. This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3, and 4."
Still no flurry or sohei mentioned.
Wow, did not encountered that before. Seems kinda smart combo. I would allow it if concept is interesting and not gunwielding monk.
Wow, did not encountered that before. Seems kinda smart combo. I would allow it if concept is interesting and not gunwielding monk.
Why would a gunweilding monk be a problem?
Not to my taste, just like Holy Gun.
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As far as sohei goes ill repeat what I said above fighter weapon training does not have the wording needed to flurry.
And 'sohei' Weapon Training does not have the wording to give +1 to attack and damage with the chosen weapons. But we all know that the ability refers to the Weapon Training in the fighter description, including where it says 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.' This sentence points to the Weapon Training printed in the fighter description just as much as the first part points to the fighter description. Basically, if a Sohei has the ability called Weapon Training detailed in the fighter description, then Sohei may flurry with those weapons, and a Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 definitely has that ability so may flurry with the chosen weapon.
If the 'sohei' ability did not refer to the fighter ability, then it wouldn't work! It would also be against the design philosophy spoken about by SKR when he talks about abilities being the same.
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Yes that is correct the sohei power they get at lvl 6 refers to fighter weapon training to tell you how it works. It also modifies flurry and their ki power. However sohei 1/weapon master 3 does nor losses thisbversion of weapon training he has the version from weapon master that does not mention sohei or flurry.
Sigh its this simple. What class feature does a sohei 1/ weapon master 3 get that lets then flurry with a non monk level. Provide the wording in the class feature they have as a lvl 4 character that lets them do it.
@torbyn yes I conveniently ignored the the obvious typo in favour of the multiple other sources that say they get the power at lvl 9.