Sohei 1 / Weapon master 3


Rules Questions

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The problem is that you don't have two of them with Sohei 1 and Weapon Master 3. You only have 1 of them. you have Weapon Training from the Fighter Class which does not grant flurry of blows.

While Sohei 6 grants Weapon Training as the Fighter Class Feature and additionally allows you to perform Flurry of Blows with any weapon you have the Weapon Training feature.


Quote:
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons.

Take a look at it, as we all have a hundred times by now. It does say that he gains weapon training 'as the fighter class feature...' It's technically a similie, meaning that it's similiar to the actual class feature the fighter gets, but at the same time not the same.

Then it goes on to the edited list for the class, unlike the fighter class feature.

It then states that they get it at every 6 levels after that, unlike the fighter class feature.

It then states that weapon groups with which the sohei has can be used in a flurry of blows, unlike the fighter class feature.

Just because two things are similar doesn't mean they're the exact same thing. The ability clearly states where it works,'as the fighter class feature', but then goes on to be modified by the sohei class, making it not 'as the fighter class feature.'

EDIT:
A better wording for it would be 'similar to...' rather then 'as the...' because then it gets assumed that it is the exact class feature rather than a similar class feature for a seperate class.


DrakeRoberts wrote:

Let's look at the entire ability actually:

PRD said wrote:
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

Unlike other archetypes which add to, modify, or remove Flurry of Blows, this archetype's ability does not make mention of altering the Flurry of Blows ability. This is important for two reasons: Firstly, it means that you can potentially combine Sohei with an archetype that does alter Flurry of Blows; and Secondly, it means that it is not the Flurry of Blows ability (which is what you get at first level of Sohei Monk) that is being altered. Rather, it shows that the line "A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training." is in fact part of the "Weapon Training (Ex)" ability gained at 6th level. It is confusing because the ability shares it's name with the Fighter ability, but we already know that that's it's not exactly the same because of the limitations put on your weapon group choices.

What this boils down to then, is that the Sohei Monk, at 6th level, gains an ability (whose name happens to be shared with a fighter ability) that gives him both the bonuses that a fighter's Weapon Training ability gives for one of the chosen groups, and the ability to use Flurry (starting at level 6, since the non-modification of Flurry of Blows shows that the weapon-Flurrying ability is gained by this specific ability rather than as part of Flurry) with the chosen weapon group(s).

Personally, I would have ruled that the Weapon Training from Fighter levels would give a Sohei 6 additional...

Malachi, I'm curious to your thoughts on this.

Scarab Sages

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So we're saying that even though the "A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training." clause is inside their 6th level ability, they get that before 6th level? Is that just because it doesn't say a "6th level sohei may use..." at the start of that sentence? Sweet. What about the Paladin's capstone ability?

"At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit of power for her god. Her DR increases 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as her caster level...."

That's fantastic. That third sentence doesn't say "whenever a 20th level paladin uses smite evil and successfully...". So that means it doesn't matter that it's a 20th level ability, right?

"A sohei using weapon training..." So as long as I have weapon training, I get it.

"Whenever she uses smite evil..." So as long as I have smite evil I get it.

This is beautiful. I'm looking forward to banishing every outsider I ever fight, thanks.


Fotta wrote:

So we're saying that even though the "A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training." clause is inside their 6th level ability, they get that before 6th level? Is that just because it doesn't say a "6th level sohei may use..." at the start of that sentence? Sweet. What about the Paladin's capstone ability?

"At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit of power for her god. Her DR increases 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as her caster level...."

That's fantastic. That third sentence doesn't say "whenever a 20th level paladin uses smite evil and successfully...". So that means it doesn't matter that it's a 20th level ability, right?

"A sohei using weapon training..." So as long as I have weapon training, I get it.

"Whenever she uses smite evil..." So as long as I have smite evil I get it.

This is beautiful. I'm looking forward to banishing every outsider I ever fight, thanks.

+1


It also occurs to me by malachi's reading a sohei 1/weapon master 6 can also add new weapon groups. Really if he is going to co-op parts of a class feature he does not have...

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
to be a valid comparison then Instant Alchemy

It is a valid comparison and you are just asserting it is invalid.

Fotta wrote:

Is that just because it doesn't say a "6th level sohei may use..." at the start of that sentence?

"At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit of power for her god. Her DR increases 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as her caster level...."

That's fantastic. That third sentence doesn't say "whenever a 20th level paladin uses smite evil and successfully...". So that means it doesn't matter that it's a 20th level ability, right?

Yes that is the utterly ridiculous thing that Malachi is saying.

Shadow Lodge

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

@EvilPaladin: I like your approach to the problem, and your honest attempt to analyse the issue.

To respond, I'll put my answers underneath yours, to facilitate comparison.

EvilPaladin wrote:

Facts:

•Fighter Weapon Training is granted by a 5th level fighter, is available to any weapon group, and increases at 9th level, and every 4 levels afterwards.
•Sohei Weapon Training is granted at 6th level, is available only to the Bows, Crossbows, Monk Weapons, Thrown Weapons, Spears, and Polearms weapon groups, and increases at 12th level and every 6 levels afterwards. It also says it is granted "as the fighter class feature".

From these facts, I ask myself a series of questions, and answer them accordingly.

Q:Are these two abilities identical?
A:No, because the rules state they aren't. They state where these abilities are different.

A: As mentioned many times, it is part of the Weapon Training from its very creation that it applies to a subset of weapons, just like Weapon Focus or like Skill Focus applying to only one skill. There are not an infinite number of different feats called Weapon Focus, there is one feat which must name a weapon.

Ki Pool is another example. You can get Ki Pool from more than one source, but you don't have two Ki Pools, you have one combined pool. The Extra Ki feat is one feat, not Extra Ki(ninja), Extra Ki(monk) etc., because Extra Ki is one feat, and Ki Pool is one ability.

Weapon Training is one ability, which each time it is taken applies to a new group (usually) and increases incrementally. If they were all different abilities then they couldn't stack. Gloves of Duelling work with Weapon Training. THE Weapon Training ability.

As SKR said, if it's the same then it's the same. Every Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature' is the same ability, and the fact that there is a different list of possible weapon groups doesn't make it a different ability once you have chosen one of those groups.

Let's take Weapon Focus again. This feat is a...

While I disagree that the different variations of weapon training are the same ability, I can see both versions as being potential interpretations of this ability. My only issue is that I don't really think they are the same class feature is of relevance. Because although they are the same class feature, that doesn't negate the fact that the line "A Sohei may use Flurry of Blows and Ki Strike with any weapon he has Weapon Training in" is in the 6th level sohei class feature. Now, although they are the same ability, they still function separately when called out to, which is why the Life Oracle's Channel ability and the Cleric's Channel Energy ability count as each other for feat/item prerequisites, but the Life Oracle still gets 2 less uses/day[well, assuming the same Cha anyway], and why the Sohei only gets weapon training in certain groups if single-classed. If the line "A Sohei can flurry with any weapon he has weapon training in" weren't one of these cases of the same ability called out to work differently, then I'm fairly certain it would be in Flurry of Blows, Ki Strike, or would be its own separate class feature.


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I still say this is as simple as 'you don't gain benefits from abilities you haven't gained yet'. Malachi has consistently ignored this problem. The text under the 6th level Sohei class ability never gets looked at or referenced until you are Sohei 6.

Until that point, if you have an ability called Weapon Training it works exactly as the source of that ability says. You never ever get to look ahead.

Anything at all to contradict the above has yet to be provided.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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KrispyXIV wrote:
Anything at all to contradict the above has yet to be provided.

+1

But he is just intentionally ignoring this problem. Because if he addresses it, his whole house of cards falls down.


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This is the Favored Terrain ability that the Horizon Walker gains:

PRD wrote:
Favored Terrain:At 1st level, a horizon walker may select a favored terrain from the ranger Favored Terrains table (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 65). This works exactly like the ranger favored terrain ability. The horizon walker gains an additional favored terrain at 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th level, and he can increase the bonus from an existing favored terrain as described in the ranger ability. If the horizon walker has abilities from other classes that only work in a favored terrain (such as a ranger's camouflage and hide in plain sight abilities), those abilities work in favored terrains selected as a horizon walker.

As you can see, the bolded text states that the Horizon Walker's Favored Terrain works 'exactly like' the Ranger's Favored Terrain class ability. The Sohei, which came out in the Ultimate Combat, doesn't have a similar wording in his class ability for Weapon Training. As I said before, it works,'as the fighter class feature.'

What does this mean? It means that the Sohei's Weapon Training, though it works 'as the fighter class feature', is not the exact same ability. If it were the same exact ability, it would've been worded in the same way the Horizon Walker's Favored Terrain class feature is worded, which is the same exact ability. Since it works 'as the fighter class feature', it follows some of the basics of a fighter's Weapon Training, but it then goes on to modify the ability.

If it were the same exact ability like you say it is, you wouldn't even need to be a Sohei. You just need to be a normal fighter/monk, because, by your logic, a fighter/monk can FoB with any weapons in which he has weapon training.

Silver Crusade

@TheBulletKnight:-

• the Horizon Walker's ability is a good parallel. 'As the fighter class ability' is another way of saying '(the same) as the fighter class ability

• since the text says 'a Sohei can...', how does that equal 'anyone not a Sohei can...'?

Weapon Focus wrote:

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Weapon Focus is not a load of different feats, it is one feat. The benefit is that you get +1 to attack, but it must be with a specific weapon. note that is says that you can gain this feat multiple times, not these feats.

Weapon Training wrote:
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

This is the special ability, the 'benefit' of Weapon Training. The details of which weapon groups are available and how many levels between each new weapon group/incremental increase in bonus don't mean that these are different abilities! Just like Weapon Focus is one feat, Weapon Training is one ability.

Even the example SKR used to illustrate that 'if it's the same then it's the same' was Channel. He acknowledged that there were differences in detail (paladins burn uses of Lay On Hands, for example), but these differences did not result in different abilities. The whole point of his post was that even with these differences they were the same ability.

What Sohei get at 6th is 'Weapon Training, as the fighter class feature'. The same feature that fighters get at 5th and Weapomasters get at 3rd. It also notes, in the first place it becomes relevant to the single class Sohei, that anyone with both this ability and flurry of blows may combine them. The number of levels you have in any class is not a factor; the only factors are:-

• be a Sohei
• have Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature'
• have flurry of blows and/or Ki Strike

If yes, then, 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'.

Silver Crusade

DrakeRoberts wrote:
Malachi, I'm curious to your thoughts on this.

• what Sohei get at sixth level is Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature'

• this feature is not 'modified' by having to choose a weapon group since that's how it already works. It is not modified by the list of available groups being different for each class; we already know from the FAQ about Gloves of Duelling that Weapon Training is the same no matter which group you choose, no matter if different archetypes have different available weapon groups. What the ability does is give you a bonus to attack and damage

• for a Sohei, the sentence 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training' does not modify flurry of blows, does not modify Ki Strike, does not modify Weapon Training. What that sentence does is let a Sohei use, without modification, two or all three of these abilities on the same weapon at the same time, so long as the Sohei has the abilities to combine

Silver Crusade

Fotta wrote:

So we're saying that even though the "A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training." clause is inside their 6th level ability, they get that before 6th level? Is that just because it doesn't say a "6th level sohei may use..." at the start of that sentence? Sweet. What about the Paladin's capstone ability?

"At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit of power for her god. Her DR increases 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as her caster level...."

That's fantastic. That third sentence doesn't say "whenever a 20th level paladin uses smite evil and successfully...". So that means it doesn't matter that it's a 20th level ability, right?

"A sohei using weapon training..." So as long as I have weapon training, I get it.

"Whenever she uses smite evil..." So as long as I have smite evil I get it.

This is beautiful. I'm looking forward to banishing every outsider I ever fight, thanks.

This is a poor effort at an argument. Paladins get that ability at 20th, and don't have an ability before they have it.

Just like everyone else. Just like the Sohei.

What 'it' is in our case is Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature'. A single class Sohei doesn't have that before 6th level, so can't use it, so doesn't have anything to combine with flurry of blows.

But a multiclass Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 has 'it', meaning Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature'. Since he does have it, the rule about not using it if you don't have it is true but irrelavent.

Silver Crusade

Mojorat wrote:
It also occurs to me by malachi's reading a sohei 1/weapon master 6 can also add new weapon groups. Really if he is going to co-op parts of a class feature he does not have...

No. The normal class limits apply. When you take a level in a class that gives (or increases) Weapon Training, you have to obey that class' limits. When a multiclass Sohei/Weaponmaster hits 12th level Sohei he must choose from the weapon groups in the Sohei entry, and when he hits 7th level Weaponmaster his bonuses increase (with all weapon groups he has), but doesn't get to choose a new weapon group.

Silver Crusade

James Risner wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
Anything at all to contradict the above has yet to be provided.

+1

But he is just intentionally ignoring this problem. Because if he addresses it, his whole house of cards falls down.

Really? Really?

I've lost count of the times I've addressed that precise point, including on my list of fallacies and most recently two posts ago!

I can't accuse you of lying, because it's such a pointless, disprovable lie it would be absurd to deliberately tell such a whopper. But it does illustrate that there are those who are ignoring what they've already read, so convinced they were of the 'right' answer before even reading any arguments, pro or con. It's a kind of hysterical blindness in their memories. : /


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
James Risner wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
Anything at all to contradict the above has yet to be provided.

+1

But he is just intentionally ignoring this problem. Because if he addresses it, his whole house of cards falls down.

Really? Really?

I've lost count of the times I've addressed that precise point, including on my list of fallacies and most recently two posts ago!

I can't accuse you of lying, because it's such a pointless, disprovable lie it would be absurd to deliberately tell such a whopper. But it does illustrate that there are those who are ignoring what they've already read, so convinced they were of the 'right' answer before even reading any arguments, pro or con. It's a kind of hysterical blindness in their memories. : /

Anyone else find this hilariously ironic?

Here's a question for you. If you had not read the sohei level 6 ability before you gained it, would you have any idea that you could flurry with your weaponmaster group?

The answer is, of course, no. And thats how classes and leveling work. Until you reach the level where you would read it, for all purposes it doesnt exist.

Edit: Also, hitting weaponmaster 7 increases the bonus for only the original weaponmaster group, as the archetype specifies the bonuses only apply to that group. Also, sohei 6 training would not improve weaponmaster weapon training, as that bonus is solely based on weaponmaster level, unless you again select the same weapons group, giving it two untyped bonuses.


Calth wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
James Risner wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
Anything at all to contradict the above has yet to be provided.

+1

But he is just intentionally ignoring this problem. Because if he addresses it, his whole house of cards falls down.

Really? Really?

I've lost count of the times I've addressed that precise point, including on my list of fallacies and most recently two posts ago!

I can't accuse you of lying, because it's such a pointless, disprovable lie it would be absurd to deliberately tell such a whopper. But it does illustrate that there are those who are ignoring what they've already read, so convinced they were of the 'right' answer before even reading any arguments, pro or con. It's a kind of hysterical blindness in their memories. : /

Anyone else find this hilariously ironic?

Here's a question for you. If you had not read the sohei level 6 ability before you gained it, would you have any idea that you could flurry with your weaponmaster group?

The answer is, of course, no. And thats how classes and leveling work. Until you reach the level where you would read it, for all purposes it doesnt exist.

Edit: Also, hitting weaponmaster 7 increases the bonus for only the original weaponmaster group, as the archetype specifies the bonuses only apply to that group. Also, sohei 6 training would not improve weaponmaster weapon training, as that bonus is solely based on weaponmaster level, unless you again select the same weapons group, giving it two untyped bonuses.

Wait, if the two abilities are different and apply untyped bonuses... Screw flurry anyways; rock some Gloves of Dueling for a combined +6 to hit/damage.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
edit: I think the intent was to add a spell that was already on your class list, not any spell from any class so it should not affect the sorcerer or oracle in a negative manner.

You can't show any proof it works the way you say in the wake of plenty of evidence and FAQ to the contrary. Yet you keep asserting you are right. At this point I guess you are doing it to just stir up everyone?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I can't accuse you of lying

I'm quickly losing patience with you.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Fotta wrote:


"A sohei using weapon training..." So as long as I have weapon training, I get it.

"Whenever she uses smite evil..." So as long as I have smite evil I get it.

This is beautiful. I'm looking forward to banishing every outsider I ever fight, thanks.

This is a poor effort at an argument. Paladins get that ability at 20th, and don't have an ability before they have it.

He does get smite before level 20.

Can you explain to me how Fotta's example of smite being any different from your own interpretation of Sohei weapon training?

He is using the same logic you are using. Why is his example invalid?


Torbyne wrote:
Wait, if the two abilities are different and apply untyped bonuses... Screw flurry anyways; rock some Gloves of Dueling for a combined +6 to hit/damage.

Doesnt work because bonuses from the same source, Gloves of Dueling, don't stack. Basically, because they changed how Weaponmaster weapon training works, it doesnt work nicely if you get back weapon training from another class. Do the archetype ruling, things that improve or modify weapon training still work on it (i.e. flurry and gloves of dueling) but the only thing that improves the base bonus directly is levels of weaponmaster.


But Malachi, it's not sohei gaining weapon training, it's the weapon master. You don't read all instances of an ability when you gain it, you only read the single version relative to the class that gained it.

Also, the sohei's version is a modified version with the same name. What you're saying is that because his reads differently they would all work the same. The truth is, even though it says it's the same thing, as soon as you change it, with the smaller list, with the different level progession, with the fact that it allows a sohei to use that weapon group to use FoB and ki strike, it makes it different, and specific to that class.

Can we just get the PDT in here to settle this? It would be so much simpler, and then Mal can go sulk in a corner and licks his wounds or lord it over us that he was right.


TheBulletKnight wrote:
Can we just get the PDT in here to settle this? It would be so much simpler, and then Mal can go sulk in a corner and licks his wounds or lord it over us that he was right.

No need. If he is the GM he can run it like he wants. If he convinces his GM to allow him to run it like that he still gets it. In PFS, people will inform him of his misinterpretation of the rule.

I was only trying to use his own logic to help him see why he was misinterpreting the rule.

Paizo staff have more important things to be doing.


I doubt we will get an official ruling because its not needed. The rules are clear, at least on the original issue of a sohei 1 flurrying. They don't issue FAQs because one person refuses to follow the rules.


True... If they were to cater to every little thing, they'd never come out with new stuff for people to misinterpret and argue about.

Shadow Lodge

Opening up a whole new can of worms, did anybody else notice that the Weapon Master's Weapon Training references the Fighter's class feature as much as the Rogue Talent does, which is to say, it doesn't? Just trying to add new material here [instead of the same arguments being thrown at each other over and over again, getting more and more heated].


Yeah, by RAW, weapon master weapon training is not the same as fighter weapon training, as it doesnt fulfill the requirements of the archetype replacement FAQ. So gloves of dueling, sohei fluryying, etc... wouldnt apply by RAW. RAI I think it should, but it would need a FAQ (which would belong in a different thread) of the weapon master to fully work. Basically, something like Weapon Master Weapon Training counts as the fighter ability for purposes of effects that modify Fighter weapon training, adding an extension to the FAQ for this corner case.

Silver Crusade

James Risner wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
edit: I think the intent was to add a spell that was already on your class list, not any spell from any class so it should not affect the sorcerer or oracle in a negative manner.
You can't show any proof it works the way you say in the wake of plenty of evidence and FAQ to the contrary. Yet you keep asserting you are right. At this point I guess you are doing it to just stir up everyone?

Er...I didn't write that. I don't even know what it's talking about, so I can't comment on it.

Find out who did write it and ask them.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Last message was a cut and paste failure.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
stuff that is wrong and I, Malachi, can't admit it for some reason

You can't show any proof it works the way you say in the wake of plenty of evidence and FAQ to the contrary. Yet you keep asserting you are right. At this point I guess you are doing it to just stir up everyone?

Silver Crusade

James Risner wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I can't accuse you of lying
I'm quickly losing patience with you.

And vice versa. You (plural) accuse me of refusing to address a point that I have addressed ad nauseum, and then say the reason I haven't addressed it is because if I do then my argument will fall down like a house of cards.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
TheBulletKnight wrote:
Can we just get the PDT in here to settle this? It would be so much simpler, and then Mal can go sulk in a corner and licks his wounds or lord it over us that he was right.

That is why I'm not bothering to argue the point anymore.

Silver Crusade

Slacker2010 wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Fotta wrote:


"A sohei using weapon training..." So as long as I have weapon training, I get it.

"Whenever she uses smite evil..." So as long as I have smite evil I get it.

This is beautiful. I'm looking forward to banishing every outsider I ever fight, thanks.

This is a poor effort at an argument. Paladins get that ability at 20th, and don't have an ability before they have it.

He does get smite before level 20.

Can you explain to me how Fotta's example of smite being any different from your own interpretation of Sohei weapon training?

He is using the same logic you are using. Why is his example invalid?

The Sohei can combine two class features (or three, including Ki Strike), but only if he has those abilities to combine. What it says is that 'a Sohei with Weapon training can...'

A paladin can combine two abilities if he has them. If Holy Champion was given by other classes, and at the end of the paladin's version it said that a paladin with Holy Champion can do sometime extra with Smite Evil, then that would be true no matter which class granted Holy Champion.

Since there are no non-paladin classes which give Holy Champion, since it is unlikely that the capstone paladin ability will ever be given to another class at less than 20th level, and since it doesn't say anything like 'a paladin with Holy Champion can do extra stuff with Smite Evil', then these are three major differences between it and the Sohei case we are discussing, which makes it a useless comparison.


Assume you hadnt read the sohei class before, and someone handed you a sohei 1/ weapon master 3 character sheet. Is there anything on it that would indicate you flurry with your weapon training group?

If so where would it be?


Calth wrote:

Assume you hadnt read the sohei class before, and someone handed you a sohei 1/ weapon master 3 character sheet. Is there anything on it that would indicate you flurry with your weapon training group?

If so where would it be?

This sort of argument apparently doesn't work for Malachi, regardless of how correct it is.

He continues to ignore the fact that you don't benefit from rules text of abilities you don't have yet, and you don't reference other classes rules unless you have a class feature that explicitly tells you to (like at Sohei 6, when it instructs you to reference another class... but not before then).

This has become pointless :(


KrispyXIV wrote:
Calth wrote:

Assume you hadnt read the sohei class before, and someone handed you a sohei 1/ weapon master 3 character sheet. Is there anything on it that would indicate you flurry with your weapon training group?

If so where would it be?

This sort of argument apparently doesn't work for Malachi, regardless of how correct it is.

He continues to ignore the fact that you don't benefit from rules text of abilities you don't have yet, and you don't reference other classes rules unless you have a class feature that explicitly tells you to (like at Sohei 6, when it instructs you to reference another class... but not before then).

This has become pointless :(

Become pointless? KrispyXIV, it has long BEEN pointless! :)

MA


master arminas wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
Calth wrote:

Assume you hadnt read the sohei class before, and someone handed you a sohei 1/ weapon master 3 character sheet. Is there anything on it that would indicate you flurry with your weapon training group?

If so where would it be?

This sort of argument apparently doesn't work for Malachi, regardless of how correct it is.

He continues to ignore the fact that you don't benefit from rules text of abilities you don't have yet, and you don't reference other classes rules unless you have a class feature that explicitly tells you to (like at Sohei 6, when it instructs you to reference another class... but not before then).

This has become pointless :(

Become pointless? KrispyXIV, it has long BEEN pointless! :)

MA

Was there ever a point?

I mean, its an argument on the Internet. Serious Business it is not.

Ah well.


Dotted


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

What Sohei get at 6th is 'Weapon Training, as the fighter class feature'. The same feature that fighters get at 5th and Weapomasters get at 3rd. It also notes, in the first place it becomes relevant to the single class Sohei, that anyone with both this ability and flurry of blows may combine them. The number of levels you have in any class is not a factor; the only factors are:-

This is the crux of your argument. That they only wait to mention it when you have all the abilities but that you actually have it from level one. But that's not how it works for any class. A regular monk gets flurry at level one. In their level one flurry ability it mentions the extra attacks gained at level 8 and level 15. It does not wait until those levels to mention them. If Sohei(s) were meant to flurry with weapon training (as a benefit of being able to flurry), it would have been mentioned at level one. The ability is not mentioned until they get the 6th level ability because it is a function of that ability. You are trying to parse out certain sentences from the ability and say they are not related. This was your same argument with fighter bonus feats, that a sentence within the ability description did not pertain to that ability. That FAQ reaffirmed that ability descriptions apply to that ability. You have given zero proof of your argument and have failed to disprove the alternative.

Silver Crusade

TheBulletKnight wrote:
But Malachi, it's not sohei gaining weapon training, it's the weapon master.

This Weaponmaster IS the Sohei! A multiclass character IS both! The Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 IS both a Sohei AND a Weaponmaster. The character IS a Sohei, and DOES have both flurry of blows AND Weapon Training.

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Also, the sohei's version is a modified version with the same name. What you're saying is that because his reads differently they would all work the same. The truth is, even though it says it's the same thing, as soon as you change it, with the smaller list, with the different level progession, with the fact that it allows a sohei to use that weapon group to use FoB and ki strike, it makes it different, and specific to that class.

As SKR made clear, the slight differences don't mean that they are different abilities. They all count as Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature', which is also the position of the Gloves of Duelling FAQ. These pieces of evidence show that 'if they're the same then they're the same', while I haven't seen any evidence of anything which is the same being different, outside of Monty Python's Life of Brian:-

Quote:

Brian: You're all individuals! You're all different!

Crowd: Yes! We're all different!

Random Bloke In Crowd: ...I'm not....

Silver Crusade

KrispyXIV wrote:
Calth wrote:

Assume you hadnt read the sohei class before, and someone handed you a sohei 1/ weapon master 3 character sheet. Is there anything on it that would indicate you flurry with your weapon training group?

If so where would it be?

Where else could that information be? Classes are written from the perspective of a single classed character, and the ability to do something when you have Weapon Training is only relevant for a single classed Sohei at 6th level. But a multiclass character can get Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature' from another class, satisfying the conditions of being a Sohei, having Weapon Training and having flurry of blows, without having six levels of Sohei.

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This sort of argument apparently doesn't work for Malachi, regardless of how correct it is.

He continues to ignore the fact that you don't benefit from rules text of abilities you don't have yet,

True, but the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 does have the ability in question, which is Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature'.

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and you don't reference other classes rules unless you have a class feature that explicitly tells you to (like at Sohei 6, when it instructs you to reference another class... but not before then).

There is no rule about what you can look at, only about what you can use. The information (about how you can combine flurry with Weapon Training) is exactly where it has to be. If the author had wanted any Sohei to combine flurry with Weapon Training from any source, he would write it as it is written. If he had wanted to restrict it to sixth level Sohei, he could've made this ability not the same as Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature', or re-arranged the words do that, 'At sixth level a Sohei gets Weapon Training, as the fighter class feature, and is able to use flurry of blows and Ki Strike with any Weapon in which he has Weapon Training'. Worded like this, it would make the ability to combine FoB and WT an ability gained at sixth level.

But that is not the form of words used, or the meaning of those words. The only ability gained at Sohei 6 is Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature', and it then notes that, 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'. Since Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature' is available from other classes, the words mean that if a Sohei has Weapon Training at all then he can use flurry of blows with any weapon in which he has such Weapon Training.

Silver Crusade

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

What Sohei get at 6th is 'Weapon Training, as the fighter class feature'. The same feature that fighters get at 5th and Weapomasters get at 3rd. It also notes, in the first place it becomes relevant to the single class Sohei, that anyone with both this ability and flurry of blows may combine them. The number of levels you have in any class is not a factor; the only factors are:-

This is the crux of your argument. That they only wait to mention it when you have all the abilities but that you actually have it from level one.

No, they don't have it from level one, they have it as soon as they have both FoB AND Weapon Training, which single class Sohei get at level six, but multiclass Sohei can get earlier, depending on their non-Sohei levels.

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A regular monk gets flurry at level one. In their level one flurry ability it mentions the extra attacks gained at level 8 and level 15. It does not wait until those levels to mention them.

Precisely. Sohei get FoB 'as the monk', because they are a monk. The way archetypes are written is that they have all the class features of the parent class except those that have been replaced. They don't waste valuable space when writing the archetype, just expect you to turn to the CRB (or wherever the main class is described).

And the fighter class feature 'Weapon Training', to which you must refer (as directed), also explains what happens to Weapon Training as you level up, right there in the entry.

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If Sohei(s) were meant to flurry with weapon training (as a benefit of being able to flurry), it would have been mentioned at level one.

Being able to get extra attacks with sub-groups of weapons is the benefit of flurry. This is not altered by the Sohei class. Being able to combine flurry with WT is not a function of flurry. It's like saying that the ability to have ice cream with your apple pie is a function of the apple pie, and why wasn't ice cream mentioned on the list of apple pie ingredients?

Getting bonuses to attack and damage when using sub-groups of weapons is the benefit of Weapon Training. This is not altered by the Sohei.

What Sohei can do is treat any weapon in which they have Weapon Training as one of the weapons in the Sohei's flurry group. Neither ability is altered.

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The ability is not mentioned until they get the 6th level ability because it is a function of that ability.

It is not a function of Weapon Training either. It is mentioned at sixth level because that is when a single class Sohei first has both FoB and Weapon Training, because you can't combine two abilities until you have the two abilities to combine!

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You are trying to parse out certain sentences from the ability and say they are not related. This was your same argument with fighter bonus feats, that a sentence within the ability description did not pertain to that ability. That FAQ reaffirmed that ability descriptions apply to that ability.

That FAQ was actually a stealth errata, changing the words and therefore the meaning. Before that FAQ the devs made it clear that, as written in the CRB, they could re-train any bonus feat. They had to change the words to change the meaning.

This is part of my growing dissatisfaction of the way FAQs are now used. In theory, an errata changes the rule, but a FAQ is only supposed to explain what the (unchanged) rule means. I don't object to rules being changed per se, but they should make it clear when they have changed the rule.

Whether a particular rule change is bad or good is a separate issue. This one was bad, because it makes no sense either in-game or as a meta-game construct, goes against what was previously established about stat blocks being the same if the words are the same no matter what order you chose things, and a better more obvious solution was to simply say that they can re-train any combat feat for any other for which they qualify, subject to the existing caveats re: pre-requisites.

Other FAQ/stealth erratas are better, like the new bastard sword rules.

In our case, they could certainly errata it and change the words so that the meaning also changes, but right now the words mean what they say: 'A Sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'.

No need to twist that.


At sixth level...


Okay, so.

The crux of the two arguements.

No, does not work: You need to be level 6, for the full ability to work.

Yes, it does work: You simply need the mechanic, the ability in question is tied to the mechanic, NOT the level.

Malachi is technically right (The best kind of right as I've been told), if you ignore anything beyond simply the rules of logic and how language works, he's right.

Which, is also why he's wrong.

Those same traditions that he declaimed early on are what we use to make sense of the material supplied. Paizo (And every other RPG publisher) makes mistakes, makes things unclear, things can even seem contradictory, and in the absence of clarification, you do the best you can to apply the appropriate logic to the situation.

In pathfinder, the appropriate logic is not Logic, but Pathfinder Logic. What is in keeping with Pathfinder, and how it works? Where else can I go to look to see where it's done elsewhere? Pathfinder is a system of rules that can at times defy actual logic, so relying on actual Logic is a good idea (As always), but it won't serve you as well as using the actual Game's Logic (MTG, I'm looking at you...) would.

So, how does this work?

When you gain a level, you gain the abilities listed. Simple as that, that's how Pathfinder works.

Sometimes, it can be vague (See the Cleric's travel Domain, the best part of it isn't even in the listed abilities!), and we need to use what we know of the system to fill in the blanks, or resolve what appears to be a conflict.

How this exact issue is phrased can indeed be taken as you say Malachi, but it would be going against everything that is Pathfinder, and every precedent set by the developers.

In this circumstance, it's clear that when a Sohei Monk gains level 6, and their Weapon Training, it's intended that they also get Flurry with that weapon, as it specifies. If the intention was that they simply have Flurry with Weapon Training by default, however they receive it, it would, 1) Be listed at level one (Or even before it as a non-level related bonus), 2) Be written to indicate that the intention was for it to apply to any Weapon Training as a default ability in general, independent of level.

Instead, using the normal way we read Pathfinder materials, that ability only comes into being at Level 6 for Sohei, the level at which it is listed.

To prove otherwise, you would need to show precedent for your argument, elsewhere where the logic you're using works in Pathfinder. Otherwise, it has no current validity. :(

The question here should not be, "What Logically works here." but, "What did the designers likely mean here based off of what we know about how they write these books?"

Edit: Removed something that on second thought, could be taken as hostile. Minor Clarifications, etc.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I have addressed ad nauseum, and then say the reason I haven't addressed it is because if I do then my argument will fall down like a house of cards.

You absolutely haven't addressed it.

All you have done is say "I'm right and I got no valid proof".

Because all the proof you have used proves you wrong.


I'm shocked people are still discussing this. If Malachi wants to do it wrong, let him. If he's your GM, don't play a Sohei/Ftr, or do and take advantage of his house rule. If he's a player at your table, tell him Rule 0 'No'. If it's PFS and he appeals, let him, he'll lose. If he's your GM at a PFS game, it likely won't matter, but if it does, appeal and you'll win. Ultimately, it has been made more than clear that either out of stubborness, trollishness, or just plain honest incomprehension... he's not budging. He doesn't want truth-by-consensus, and the issue is certainly clear to enough people that it's not worth a Dev's time either.

The OP has his answer. It is the purpose of this thread to answer to him, not a single detractor that has hijacked this thread with a refusal to hear the rules as they are. This thread may as well be locked at this point, or left to die. It has served it's purpose, and is now simply serving to fuel arguments and negative feelings.


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Im curious, since the faq spefifically states we cannot look ahead, where in the fighters version does it say we can flurry with said weapons? It doesnt. The only place it does say we can is if we look AHEAD which the faq specifically states we cannot.
you look at what you have before you and u go off that. You do not look ahead whatsoever.
reason why you are wrong malekai is bcause you are looking ahead. If u had specifically ONLY what you have at those levels, NOTHING states u can flurry with said weapons. NOTHING. The fighters version makes no mention of it and no currwnt levels BEFORE level 6 state u can flurry with said weapons.
Per the faq, u look at what u have and what the abities say they do. Future abilities and whatnot DO NOT EXIST or are not relevant UNTIL u have gained them. Otherwise the knowledge does not exist. Yes the exist in a book or pdf etc etc, but to the character, ONLY what they have and what they state is what u go off.
so following the faq and not looking ahead, where does it state in ur sohei 1/weaponmaster 3 in strictly ONLY those abilities u have thus far does it state u can flurry with said weapons? It doesnt. It states it in a level 6 ability and since u are looking ahead and not at ur current levelsis WHY u cannot flurry per the faq.


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DrakeRoberts wrote:

I'm shocked people are still discussing this...

The OP has his answer. It is the purpose of this thread to answer to him, not a single detractor that has hijacked this thread with a refusal to hear the rules as they are. This thread may as well be locked at this point, or left to die. It has served it's purpose, and is now simply serving to fuel arguments and negative feelings.

I agree with this, except I think that there would be less of a consensus on how the two class features interact if everyone hadn't spent several pages rallying together over plain as day rules mechanics (needing to be a certain level in a class to get that class feature).

For instance, I think it's less clear how the two class features merge, if at all. Typically, when you have two class features of the same name but slightly different mechanics, the text will tell you how those class features stack and interact. I think you can apply rules logic to make some reasonable conclusions, but there's an absence of concrete rules here.

Though to discuss that, you'd need a ceasefire over the whole Sohei 6 thing, and it seems that for every person who realizes arguing further is pointless, another steps in.

Silver Crusade

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Teatime42 wrote:

The crux of the two arguements.

No, does not work: You need to be level 6, for the full ability to work.

Yes, it does work: You simply need the mechanic, the ability in question is tied to the mechanic, NOT the level.

Spot on. I like this post; it seeks to take a serious look at the evidence and reach conclusions, so I'll reply to the points raised in the same spirit.

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Malachi is technically right (The best kind of right as I've been told),

A strong start! : )

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if you ignore anything beyond simply the rules of logic and how language works, he's right.

Which, is also why he's wrong.

It's still a strong start. The ability to give credit where it's due lends credibility to your whole argument.

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Those same traditions that he declaimed early on are what we use to make sense of the material supplied. Paizo (And every other RPG publisher) makes mistakes, makes things unclear, things can even seem contradictory, and in the absence of clarification, you do the best you can to apply the appropriate logic to the situation.

Talking about unclear, this isn't even the most unclear thing about the way the Sohei archetype is written. Although it is written from the point of view of a single-classed character (as is proper), another 'proper' way of presenting abilities is that any class feature of the archetype you're writing that replaces or modifies a class feature from the parent class is written such that the original feature is entirely erased and replaced by the new feature. However, this has clearly not happened with the Sohei, leading to some confusion which must be resolved in each game by 'doing the best you can to apply the appropriate logic to the situation', leading to table variation.

Let's look at what I mean:-

'Skills: A sohei gains Handle Animal as a class skill.'

Does this replace the entire skill list??? I can't believe that. It surely must mean that the Sohei has the normal monk's class skill list, and ADDS Handle Animal to that list.

'Weapon and Armour Proficiency: A sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armour.'

This one actually led to a FAQ/stealth errata! But that FAQ only addressed part of the problem. If this is meant to replace the same entry from the monk class, then it also removes the clause about not being able to flurry in armour! But it would also mean that the sohei was proficient in simple and martial weapons but not with the normal monk weapons, rendering flurry of blows much weakened by only being able to flurry unarmed (which never gets better than 1d6 for the sohei) or with a quarterstaff. But if the writer wrote this like he wrote the 'Skills' part, then the sohei would be proficient with simple and martial weapons in addition to the normal monk proficiencies.

I was in on the thread that eventually led to the FAQ, and the writer of the archetype actually posted! He said that it was his intention that the sohei should have a choice between donning armour and losing flurry and removing the armour to enable flurry. Despite his intention, that's a rubbish idea! I can certainly understand giving a player a round-to-round choice (to Power Attack or not Power Attack, that is the question), but you can't really decide to be armoured or not round by round.

The devs came to the rescue here, basically issuing a FAQ/stealth errata (a good one this time!), saying that because sohei are underpowered then they are going to change it to allow sohei to flurry in light armour. However, this doesn't resolve whether the weapon proficiencies replace or are in addition to the normal monk proficiencies.

'Bonus Feats: A sohei may select mounted combat feats as bonus feats.'

Does this replace the normal list of monk bonus feats? That would be absolutely terrible! Surely this, like the 'Skill' entry, is meant to be in addition to the list, not replace it!

'Monastic Mount: At 4th level, a sohei may spend 1 point from his ki pool to grant his mount temporary hit points...'

Wait, what? If this replaces the normal ki strike, then this is the only way sohei can spend ki points! No, wait, the rest of the entry talks about the mount benefitting whenever the sohei benefits from spending ki, so it must be in addition to, rather than replace.

It seems to me that in every case this writer intends his entries to be in addition to the monks entries with the same name, and not replace them. This would mean that you couldn't flurry in armour because the restriction did not get replaced, but the FAQ/stealth errata actually changed that.

Given all that, it doesn't surprise me that he also gave the sohei the unorthodox ability to combine three specific class features, no matter which class granted those specific features. And if that was his intent, the only way to write it (bearing in mind word count, single class perspective and it only being relevant when you have the features to combine) is as he actually wrote it! Especially when he could write it in plenty of other ways if his intent was to limit this to sohei of 6th level.

So, that is the result of applying appropriate Pathfinder logic to the situation.

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Sometimes, it can be vague

Testify, brother! Or sister.

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How this exact issue is phrased can indeed be taken as you say Malachi, but it would be going against everything that is Pathfinder, and every precedent set by the developers.

Since most of the sohei is written in an unorthodox way, this part also being written in an unorthodox way isn't a surprise.

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If the intention was that they simply have Flurry with Weapon Training by default, however they receive it, it would, 1) Be listed at level one

It only makes sense to indicate when two abilities can be used together when you have both abilities, and a single class Sohei doesn't have both until 6th.

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2) Be written to indicate that the intention was for it to apply to any Weapon Training as a default ability in general, independent of level

I believe it is! The writer knows he is giving the Sohei a fighter class feature, and instead of wording it as part of what sohei get at 6th level (which is easily done in several different ways), he instead names the fighter class feature 'Weapon Training', which is what the Sohei get at 6th level, and the vanilla fighter gets at fifth, the Weaponmaster gets at 3rd....

He wrote the Sohei as half-way between monk and fighter anyway. He knows that a vanilla fighter gets Weapon Training at 5th, so a multiclass Sohei 1/fighter 5 also gets Weapon Training at 6th. I believe he deliberately words it to be that as soon as any Sohei has Weapon Training from any source, then he may flurry with those weapons.

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You need to show precedent for your argument, elsewhere where the logic you're using works in Pathfinder. Otherwise, it has no current validity.

This sounds very reasonable. But it's just not true.

It's not just that there is no such rule as 'precedent' in Pathfinder in the same way as there is in Law, but also that precedent cannot be a Pathfinder rule, because if it were then no new idea could ever be had!

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The question here should not be, "What Logically works here." but, "What did the designers likely mean here based off of what we know about how they write these books?"

In this case, the question should be, "What did the writer of the sohei archetype likely mean, based on the way he wrote the rest of this archetype?" As we've seen, he wrote it in an idiosyncratic way all the way through. It is consistent with the way he wrote this archetype that he intended that any sohei with that class feature should be able to combine it with flurry, and this is also consistent with thae actual wording, "A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training".

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