Sohei 1 / Weapon master 3


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The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:


Well, it does say, '...as the fighter class feature...'

the same or being different), then the Sohei 1/weaponmaster 3 has it

You are intentionally ignoring the known fact that classes are written single classed.

A Sohei never has Weapon training unless he has 6 levels of Sohei. So Sohei 1/Fighter 19 doesn't have Weapon Training as a Sohei.

Silver Crusade

James Risner wrote:
You are intentionally ignoring the known fact that classes are written single classed.

The fact that classes are written as single-classed is the reason why their ability to use Weapon Training to flurry is written in their entry for Weapon Training!

Quote:
A Sohei never has Weapon training unless he has 6 levels of Sohei. So Sohei 1/Fighter 19 doesn't have Weapon Training as a Sohei.

A Sohei has Weapon Training when he has Weapon Training. The source of that ability has absolutely no relevance.

A Sohei 1/fighter 19 definately has Weapon Training, is definately a Sohei, and 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.'

Silver Crusade

Mojorat wrote:
Sigh its this simple. What class feature does a sohei 1/ weapon master 3 get that lets then flurry with a non monk level. Provide the wording in the class feature they have as a lvl 4 character that lets them do it.

What class feature does a single-class Sohei 6 have which gives him +1 to attack and damage with certain weapons? Provide the wording in the class feature they have as a single-classed Sohei that gives them that +1.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
The source of that ability has absolutely no relevance.

The source of that ability has every relevance. You don't get abilities from levels you don't have. You don't get to use the fact that word count is saved on abilities by not reprinting them in full to reference any ability with the same name. The Sohei has a clause in its Weapon Training that allows flurry. This does not mean that anyone with Weapon Training can flurry just because they took a level of Sohei.

Silver Crusade

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
The source of that ability has absolutely no relevance.
The source of that ability has every relevance. You don't get abilities from levels you don't have. You don't get to use the fact that word count is saved on abilities by not reprinting them in full to reference any ability with the same name. The Sohei has a clause in its Weapon Training that allows flurry. This does not mean that anyone with Weapon Training can flurry just because they took a level of Sohei.

Weapon Training is Weapon Training no matter which class gave you it.

The Weapon Training that Sohei get is the same as the fighter gets, it's just that Sohei can use Weapon Training in conjunction with flurry. This doesn't change either Weapon Training or flurry, just let's Sohei use them together. How do we know this? Because it says so! 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.'

The clause is where it is because classes are written as if single-classed, and putting it elsewhere would be nonsensical. Since Sohei can use these two class features together, and since classes are written as single-classed, it is only relevant when the class has both flurry and Weapon Training, and for a single-classed Sohei that means 6th level.

But a Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 has both abilities at level 4.

Put the question the other way around: if you were writing the class, and your intention was 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training', and you know that you have to write the class description as if it were single-classed, where else would you put it? You can't put it before the single-classed Sohei has both abilities, and if your intention was to have Weapon Training from any source be useable with flurry, what better way is there to write this than 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'?


Malachi, the answer to your final question is obvious; you'd put it under Flurry of Blows (and also ki strike).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Put the question the other way around: if you were writing the class, and your intention was 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training', and you know that you have to write the class description as if it were single-classed, where else would you put it? You can't put it before the single-classed Sohei has both abilities, and if your intention was to have Weapon Training from any source be useable with flurry, what better way is there to write this than 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'?

Flurry of Blows: At 6th level, a sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strikes with any weapon in which he has weapon training.

Edit: D'oh, ninja'd.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Weapon Training is Weapon Training no matter which class gave you it.

This is just wrong, and looking at the various forms of Evasion should be proof enough of this. Weapon Training is as the Weapon Training class feature except where specifically called out as different. Such as under the Sohei class writeup.

In any event, nothing will change until and if we get a FAQ answer.


So you have weapon training i get that, but you don't have the ability to use flurry of blows with that weapon training until you get the level 6 sohei ability. It's right there in black and white. It is an intrinsic part of the lvl 6 ability. It is not a separate paragraph, It is not listed at the end of the ability, it's slap bang in the middle.

It really isn't that complicated.

Silver Crusade

dragonhunterq wrote:
So you have weapon training i get that, but you don't have the ability to use flurry of blows with that weapon training until you get the level 6 sohei ability. It's right there in black and white.

What's 'right there in black and white' is 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'.

Quote:
It is an intrinsic part of the lvl 6 ability.

It is an intrinsic part of the ability in the sense that the ability to combine weapon training with flurry requires you to have weapon training. The ability gained at level 6 sohei is also gained at level 3 weaponmaster.

Quote:
It is not a separate paragraph, It is not listed at the end of the ability, it's slap bang in the middle.

By that logic, the 'sohei' weapon training doesn't give a bonus to attack and damage. The sohei entry says nothing about that. But the sohei entry does refer you to the fighter ability, and the fighter ability is what you have, what gives you that +1. And as you point out, this is the very same paragraph that says 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training', so if the part of the paragraph which makes it function refers to the fighter, then the whole paragraph refers to the fighter ability.

It is not an accident that the sentence says 'weapon training'. This is intended to be the fighter ability, stack with the fighter ability, and if you have the fighter ability then, as it says in black and white, 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'.

When formulating a debating position, trying to decide which case has the most merit, then you must apply the same criteria to both sides of the debate. If you are not allowed to refer to an ability you don't have, and if the 'sohei weapon training' is a different thing to fighter weapon training, then either both sides must obey that restriction (resulting in 'sohei weapon training' not giving any attack or damage bonus) or neither side has to obey it (meaning that if a 6th level sohei may refer to an ability that it doesn't have, then so can a 1st level sohei).

Same for deciding whether the 'sohei weapon training' is the same or different than fighter weapon training. If the abilities are different then the single-classed sohei gains no attack or damage bonus from an ability which cannot work, because that bonus is not part of the 'sohei weapon training', only of the fighter weapon training. If the sohei ability is, in fact, the fighter ability (gaining the bonuses), then it's also the same ability for the sohei 1/weaponmaster 3.

The only way to argue against this is to require different standards of evidence for the different sides of the debate, and as soon as you do that then your argument loses all credibility.

Examining the evidence with such consistent standards, the conclusion is that there is one ability called weapon training, possessed by both fighters and sohei, and that 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Same for deciding whether the 'sohei weapon training' is the same or different than fighter weapon training. If the abilities are different then the single-classed sohei gains no attack or damage bonus from an ability which cannot work, because that bonus is not part of the 'sohei weapon training', only of the fighter weapon training. If the sohei ability is, in fact, the fighter ability (gaining the bonuses), then it's also the same ability for the sohei 1/weaponmaster 3.

Except for this one teeny tiny little thing you're forgetting about...

FAQ wrote:

Class entries in the Core Rulebook are written assuming that your character is single-classed (not multiclassed). The fighter's ability to retrain feats allows you to retrain one of your fighter bonus feats (gained at 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level, and so on). You can't use it to retrain feats (combat feats or otherwise) from any other source, such as your feats at level 1, 3, etc., your 1st-level human bonus feat, or bonus feats from other classes.

You may want to asterisk your fighter bonus feats on your character sheet so you can easily determine which you can retrain later.

So even if you have an ability with the same name, the benefits don't cross over. A Sohei, even if he has Weapon Training from Fighter, ignores that because you gauge all abilities as if you only had levels in Sohei Monk unless it explicitly states otherwise. Sohei's weapon training grants the +1 bonus because it refers back to the entry in Fighter to save space. Even if you had zero levels in Fighter, you'd still grab the value and mechanics from the Fighter entry. That doesn't, however, allow you to consider Weapon Training earned via Fighter levels as part of the Sohei class features.


Ill make one last attempt at this then I give up. We have several cases of nearly identical rules working slightly different. Hide on plain sight has multiple instances of this. They are all nearly similar abilities but from a mechanical stand point they Really different.

So try this class a can hide in plane sight at lvl 3. It is a su ability that says if within 10 ft of yellow they can hide in plane sight. Class b gets an ability at 6 with an identical name and references class a hips ability for mechanics but says they can uze hips in daylight. Both abilities have identical games.

Can a pc who is class b 1/class a 3 use hips in the day or just within 10ft of yellow?

Silver Crusade

Kazaan wrote:
...you gauge all abilities as if you only had levels in Sohei Monk unless it explicitly states otherwise.

Which is precisely why the ability to combine flurry with weapon training is mentioned when the single-classed sohei finally has both abilities.

Quote:
Sohei's weapon training grants the +1 bonus because it refers back to the entry in Fighter to save space. Even if you had zero levels in Fighter, you'd still grab the value and mechanics from the Fighter entry. That doesn't, however, allow you to consider Weapon Training earned via Fighter levels as part of the Sohei class features.

It does what is says on the tin. It says 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training', and it doesn't specify, or care about, how you got weapon training. It names the weapon training ability. It does not name the imaginary 'sohei weapon training' ability.

Silver Crusade

Mojorat wrote:

Ill make one last attempt at this then I give up. We have several cases of nearly identical rules working slightly different. Hide on plain sight has multiple instances of this. They are all nearly similar abilities but from a mechanical stand point they Really different.

So try this class a can hide in plane sight at lvl 3. It is a su ability that says if within 10 ft of yellow they can hide in plane sight. Class b gets an ability at 6 with an identical name and references class a hips ability for mechanics but says they can uze hips in daylight. Both abilities have identical games.

Can a pc who is class b 1/class a 3 use hips in the day or just within 10ft of yellow?

Depends on the precise wording. If it says 'a 6th level B can HIPS in daylight, then since you're not 6th level B then you can't.

But if it says 'a B can HIPS in daylight', then anyone with a level in B can HIPS in daylight, no matter the source of HIPS. The authors know very well that there are several ways to get HIPS, so we must assume that they say what they mean; we can't assume incompetence when it can be read in that way.

If a class (lets call it, 'Luckbearer') gives Evasion at level 3, and says (in that entry, of course, since classes are written as single-class) that 'Luckbearers with evasion may apply it when successfully making a fortitude or will save in addition to reflex saves', then Luckbearers can do this no matter how they got the Evasion ability. This is because the ability itself is unchanged, it's just that Luckbearers can use evasion in other circumstances.

For sohei, neither Flurry of Blows nor Weapon Training works differently or is different than for any other creature with those abilities. It's just that sohei can use them in conjunction. We know this because it says 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training', and the paragraph which contains that sentence refers us to the fighter ability 'Weapon Training'.


So your basically saying if two classes have a nearly identical ability and the second class modifies the ability slightly but references the first classes mechanics a 1 lvl dip gives you the.second classes higher level ability? That makes no sense rules wise.


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I believe he is arguing that it is based on class ability vice class level. Which can be argued not only on the rules as printed but also due to the FAQ which specified "weapon training" was purposefully renamed everywhere that it was meant act differently from the baseline fighter ability and that any new class or archetype that used the exact name for the ability was to be treated as the vanilla version of that ability. That ruling was not geared directly to the sohei but when you use that logic on the sohei class you end up with cross training for early access to flurry.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
So you have weapon training i get that, but you don't have the ability to use flurry of blows with that weapon training until you get the level 6 sohei ability. It's right there in black and white.

What's 'right there in black and white' is 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'.

Quote:
It is an intrinsic part of the lvl 6 ability.

It is an intrinsic part of the ability in the sense that the ability to combine weapon training with flurry requires you to have weapon training. The ability gained at level 6 sohei is also gained at level 3 weaponmaster.

Quote:
It is not a separate paragraph, It is not listed at the end of the ability, it's slap bang in the middle.

By that logic, the 'sohei' weapon training doesn't give a bonus to attack and damage. The sohei entry says nothing about that. But the sohei entry does refer you to the fighter ability, and the fighter ability is what you have, what gives you that +1. And as you point out, this is the very same paragraph that says 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training', so if the part of the paragraph which makes it function refers to the fighter, then the whole paragraph refers to the fighter ability.

Where in that ability or my logic do you NOT get the +1 to hit and damage? All i'm saying is that you can only refer to the abilities you have at the level you get them. You can't look at your level 10 ability and use that to determine how your level 1 abilities work. That, with all due respect, is ridiculous.

so our WM3/S1 doesn't have the lvl 6 ability to refer to that tells him he can flurry.
Once he reaches S6 he 'unlocks'/trains that ability he can then refer to it, gets a 2nd weapon training group and can now flurry with both.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
...you gauge all abilities as if you only had levels in Sohei Monk unless it explicitly states otherwise.

Which is precisely why the ability to combine flurry with weapon training is mentioned when the single-classed sohei finally has both abilities.

Quote:
Sohei's weapon training grants the +1 bonus because it refers back to the entry in Fighter to save space. Even if you had zero levels in Fighter, you'd still grab the value and mechanics from the Fighter entry. That doesn't, however, allow you to consider Weapon Training earned via Fighter levels as part of the Sohei class features.
It does what is says on the tin. It says 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training', and it doesn't specify, or care about, how you got weapon training. It names the weapon training ability. It does not name the imaginary 'sohei weapon training' ability.

And Fighter's Bonus Feats class ability says that, every 4 levels, he can retrain any bonus feat to something different. It doesn't specify how you got that bonus feat because they don't want to repeat the same thing umpteen billion times throughout all the rulebooks, "This ability applies only to rules elements associated with this class," but it certainly does care. The FAQ clearly specifies that you don't need such a statement in each ability; in order for Sohei to be able to benefit from Weapon Training provided by other classes, it would have to state, explicitly, "At level 6, a Sohei can use Flurry of Blows with any weapon for which he has weapon training, even from another class," because the default position is that when it says "a Sohei can" it's referring to the levels of Monk only, not the character as a whole. You're fighting a losing battle here; you should cut your losses while you're behind.

Silver Crusade

"dragonhunter wrote:
Where in that ability or my logic do you NOT get the +1 to hit and damage?

Nowhere in the description of weapon training in the sohei class description does it mention bonuses to attack and damage. In order to get them you have to look at an ability you don't have: the fighter version (in which case you're admitting that you CAN look at an ability you don't have), or the sohei ability IS the fighter ability, in which case the sohei 1/weaponmaster 3 has it just as much as a single-classed sohei 6.

Silver Crusade

Kazaan wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
...you gauge all abilities as if you only had levels in Sohei Monk unless it explicitly states otherwise.

Which is precisely why the ability to combine flurry with weapon training is mentioned when the single-classed sohei finally has both abilities.

Quote:
Sohei's weapon training grants the +1 bonus because it refers back to the entry in Fighter to save space. Even if you had zero levels in Fighter, you'd still grab the value and mechanics from the Fighter entry. That doesn't, however, allow you to consider Weapon Training earned via Fighter levels as part of the Sohei class features.
It does what is says on the tin. It says 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training', and it doesn't specify, or care about, how you got weapon training. It names the weapon training ability. It does not name the imaginary 'sohei weapon training' ability.
And Fighter's Bonus Feats class ability says that, every 4 levels, he can retrain any bonus feat to something different. It doesn't specify how you got that bonus feat because they don't want to repeat the same thing umpteen billion times throughout all the rulebooks, "This ability applies only to rules elements associated with this class," but it certainly does care. The FAQ clearly specifies that you don't need such a statement in each ability; in order for Sohei to be able to benefit from Weapon Training provided by other classes, it would have to state, explicitly, "At level 6, a Sohei can use Flurry of Blows with any weapon for which he has weapon training, even from another class," because the default position is that when it says "a Sohei can" it's referring to the levels of Monk only, not the character as a whole. You're fighting a losing battle here; you should cut your losses while you're behind.

Statements by the devs show that even though it wasn't intended, the wording of the fighter bonus feat class ability allowed you to re-train bonus feats from any class, and they were okay with that.

Since then, they have issued a FAQ which essentially changes the rules. They've done this with increasing frequency: c.f. TWFing with a 2H weapon, using large bastard swords.

This new rule comes with predictable fluff AND crunch incongruities. Fluff: I learned Dodge, Power Attack and Weapon Focus at first level. How does it makes sense that I can re-train only one of these but not the other two, despite the fact that an otherwise identical creature could only retrain a different one? Crunch: you now have to go over every fighter ever published and work out which feats were gained as fighter bonus feats. It's impossible to reverse engineer with certainty, and this goes against the previously stated PF principle that characters with the same choices have the same stats. This is why increasing your Intelligence bonus is retro-active in PF but wasn't in 3.5. Another reason why I'm disillusioned by the whole FAQ process.

They could certainly issue a FAQ which changes things, but until then, 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training' .

Silver Crusade

Kazaan wrote:
the default position is that when it says "a Sohei can" it's referring to the levels of Monk only, not the character as a whole.

Bull! There is nothing in the game rules that suggests such a thing, and the mechanics of multi-classing allow you to use all your abilities. You don't have to choose which kind of Weapon Training you're using if you have it from two classes, ditto Ki Pool (you only have one), ditto Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, etc. etc.

Quote:
You're fighting a losing battle here; you should cut your losses while you're behind.

If you weren't applying opposite standards of evidence for each case then you might have some credibility in this debate. I've been using the same standard for each possibility, and do exactly what the RAW says, and it all makes sense RAI. I don't feel I'm on a losing battle at all! There has yet to be posted a consistent examination of the evidence which concludes otherwise.


Really the default position is when a class gets an ability at lvl 6 that is when you get it. It is why I find these discussions so frustraring.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Statements by the devs show that even though it wasn't intended, the wording of the fighter bonus feat class ability allowed you to re-train bonus feats from any class, and they were okay with that.

They could certainly issue a FAQ which changes things, but until then, 'sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training' .

There is no such dev comment, other than the one saying it doesn't work like you think (Fighter bonus feat retraining non-fighter feats.)

The FAQ already on file rejects you reading. Classes are single classed. You can't get the benefit of "At 6th level a Sohei" until you have 6 levels of Sohei, period. You need to get them to delete the existing FAQ to have any ground to stand.

Mojorat wrote:
I find these discussions so frustrating.

What I find frustrating is we already have an FAQ that totally shuts down his whole argument and he is rejecting it. Plus if they had to issue an FAQ for every corner case weird interpretation, we would have 1000 FAQ that address 1000 different issues that only 1 person per issue had trouble reading the printed text.


It seems to me that he's merely rejecting the logic of the FAQ. (And I think the fighter example is fairly illustrative.)

And in some respects, I'm sympathetic. I mean, Sorcerer Bloodline Arcana affect spells from any class, yet, if a FAQ were to come down about Cleric spontaneous casting, it would likely say "stop being silly, of course this only applies to Cleric slots", so the point is that there seems to be a type of subjective evaluation going on that tends to "allow things until it doesn't".

Now, I concur that you actually have to gain the pertinent class feature that contains the permissive language in this case, but there are numerous examples out there of unintentional interactions that are less clear cut than this.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
"dragonhunter wrote:
Where in that ability or my logic do you NOT get the +1 to hit and damage?
Nowhere in the description of weapon training in the sohei class description does it mention bonuses to attack and damage. In order to get them you have to look at an ability you don't have: the fighter version (in which case you're admitting that you CAN look at an ability you don't have), or the sohei ability IS the fighter ability, in which case the sohei 1/weaponmaster 3 has it just as much as a single-classed sohei 6.

maybe you missed the bit in the Sohei ability that directly refers you to the fighter ability. could you maybe direct me to the where in the weaponmaster ability it directs you to check the sohei ability, i appear to have missed that...

Silver Crusade

dragonhunterq wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
"dragonhunter wrote:
Where in that ability or my logic do you NOT get the +1 to hit and damage?
Nowhere in the description of weapon training in the sohei class description does it mention bonuses to attack and damage. In order to get them you have to look at an ability you don't have: the fighter version (in which case you're admitting that you CAN look at an ability you don't have), or the sohei ability IS the fighter ability, in which case the sohei 1/weaponmaster 3 has it just as much as a single-classed sohei 6.
maybe you missed the bit in the Sohei ability that directly refers you to the fighter ability. could you maybe direct me to the where in the weaponmaster ability it directs you to check the sohei ability, i appear to have missed that...

The very same paragraph which directs you to the fighter ability says that if a Sohei has that fighter ability then a Sohei may flurry with those weapons.

If the writer wanted any Sohei to flurry with any weapon in which he has weapon training, then he would write what was actually written, bearing in mind that classes are written as if single classed and the ability to combine two class features only becomes relevant when the second ability is gained.

If he had intended only 6th level Sohei to be able to do this, then bearing in mind word count as well as the single-class assumption, he would've written:-

Quote:
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training as the fighter class feature, and may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.

The 'may use it with flurry' sentence is simply moved, but it would have the meaning that 'at sixth level' Sohei can do this.

The way it actually is worded means that Sohei get the fighter ability, and Sohei with that fighter ability can use it with flurry. Since a Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 does have that fighter ability and is a Sohei, then he may flurry (and Ki Strike) with any weapon in which he has that fighter ability of Weapon Training.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
If he had intended only 6th level Sohei to be able to do this, then bearing in mind word count as well as the single-class assumption, he would've written:-

There is no if in the question.

They did intend.
They did write it to be limited to Sohei 6th.

Pick one:

  • You are willfully and purposefully ignoring RAW and RAI for a pedantic incorrect RAW interpretation.
  • You believe the rules are something that requires creative interpretation for the most power result possible.
  • You honestly believe it is RAW and RAI.

Which is it?

Silver Crusade

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James Risner wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
If he had intended only 6th level Sohei to be able to do this, then bearing in mind word count as well as the single-class assumption, he would've written:-

There is no if in the question.

They did intend.
They did write it to be limited to Sohei 6th.

Pick one:

  • You are willfully and purposefully ignoring RAW and RAI for a pedantic incorrect RAW interpretation.
  • You believe the rules are something that requires creative interpretation for the most power result possible.
  • You honestly believe it is RAW and RAI.

Which is it?

It is definately RAW, and almost certainly RAI since if he had meant the opposite it would've been simple to write the opposite.

You are ignoring the simple words that are written:-

• at 6th level, Sohei gain the fighter ability 'weapon training'

• if a Sohei has the fighter ability 'weapon training', he may flurry and Ki Strike with the weapons in which he has the fighter ability 'weapon training'

There is no twisting of words or intent, and examining both possible interpretations with the same criteria, then it comes to this same conclusion.

Shadow Lodge

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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
It is definately RAW, and almost certainly RAI since if he had meant the opposite it would've been simple to write the opposite.

1:If it were definitely RAW, there wouldn't be any confusion at all, and there would be absolutely no opposing arguments. The only definite thing is that there is at least a little bit of confusion as to how this feature works.

2:I personally doubt that the author or editors specifically intended for Sohei/Weapon Masters with [insert weapon here] flurry. So, whether the author/editors/devs approve or not, I doubt that this is actually Rules as they are Intended. Perhaps an unintentional yet accepted side-effect, but not the exact intent of the ability.

Personally, I read this as the Sohei getting the ability to flurry with weapons he has weapon training in as part of a 6th level class feature. And thus, until an FAQ rules differently, I will rule in my games as such.


If I came into your house with scissors and cut off Sohei at level 5, would there be anything there to suggest if you took 3 levels of weapon master you could flurry with a greatsword? No? Then taking 1 level of Sohei then 3 levels of weapon master won't do it.

Silver Crusade

EvilPaladin wrote:
I personally doubt that the author or editors specifically intended for Sohei/Weapon Masters with [insert weapon here] flurry.

I also doubt that the author was thinking of the Weaponmaster archetype, but I'm as certain as I can be that he was thinking of vanilla fighters straight out of the CRB.

The Sohei is described as a 'monastic soldier', and is given the weapon proficiencies of a fighter, allows armour wearing, takes away the more esoteric monk abilities and replaces them with more soldierly/fighter-y things, including giving the Sohei a named fighter special ability, 'as the fighter'. It's clear that Weapon Training from both classes stack, and the writer intended Weapon Training and flurry (and Ki Strike) to combine. Therefore, when he says that Sohei can flurry with weapons in which he has Weapon Training, he really means it! It isn't a mis-print!

Although vanilla fighters get Weapon Training at 5th level (meaning a Sohei 1/fighter 5 is Flurrying with Weapon Training at the same level as a single-classed Sohei), Weaponmasters get Weapon Training (and therefore have both that and flurry to combine) two levels earlier than vanilla fighters.

The Sohei/Weaponmaster is no more unbalanced versus a Sohei/fighter than a Weaponmaster is unbalanced against a fighter; what the Weaponmaster gains on the swings he loses on the roundabouts. Nothing has gone wrong! The ability to flurry exists at level one! The ability to make two attacks in a full attack exists at first level. The ability to TWF with a weapon in which you have Weapon Training exists at 3rd level for the Weaponmaster! All is as it should be, and as intended.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
"dragonhunter wrote:
Where in that ability or my logic do you NOT get the +1 to hit and damage?
Nowhere in the description of weapon training in the sohei class description does it mention bonuses to attack and damage. In order to get them you have to look at an ability you don't have: the fighter version (in which case you're admitting that you CAN look at an ability you don't have), or the sohei ability IS the fighter ability, in which case the sohei 1/weaponmaster 3 has it just as much as a single-classed sohei 6.
maybe you missed the bit in the Sohei ability that directly refers you to the fighter ability. could you maybe direct me to the where in the weaponmaster ability it directs you to check the sohei ability, i appear to have missed that...

The very same paragraph which directs you to the fighter ability says that if a Sohei has that fighter ability then a Sohei may flurry with those weapons.

If the writer wanted any Sohei to flurry with any weapon in which he has weapon training, then he would write what was actually written, bearing in mind that classes are written as if single classed and the ability to combine two class features only becomes relevant when the second ability is gained.

If he had intended only 6th level Sohei to be able to do this, then bearing in mind word count as well as the single-class assumption, he would've written:-

Quote:
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training as the fighter class feature, and may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.

The 'may use it with flurry' sentence is simply moved, but it would have the meaning that 'at sixth level' Sohei can do this.

The way it actually is worded means that Sohei get the fighter ability, and Sohei with that fighter ability can use it with flurry. Since a Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 does have that fighter ability and is a Sohei, then he may flurry (and Ki Strike) with any...

The way it is written has nothing to do with it. The simple fact is that there is NOTHING that tells you to refer to the 6th level ability until you get to 6th level. therefore the phrasing is irrelevant, completely and totally irrelevant.

Once you reach 6th level the sohei WT ability directly refers you to the fighter ability so there is no problem gaining the WT ability.

But hey if you want to ignore basic conventions who am I to stop you!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
There is no twisting of words or intent, and examining both possible interpretations with the same criteria, then it comes to this same conclusion.

That is all one thing. You can't snip out the end of the ability and say you got it.

Another example of what you are saying is absurd.

Quote:
Instant Alchemy (Ex): At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation. He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action.

If what you say is true, then at 18th level I get a fluff statement.

But at 1st I can spend a full-round to make a craft check to make an alchemical item.

I can also at 1st level apply poison as an immediate action.

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Sohei can flurry with weapons in which he has Weapon Training, he really means it! It isn't a mis-print!

All is as it should be, and as intended.

It isn't a mis-print, you are just evidently purposefully reading it wrong.

Your view of how it reads isn't how they intended, isn't how it should be read unless you ignore the FAQ, and isn't how many people read it. In short, you are in the minority and very likely wrong on RAW and RAI.

Silver Crusade

dragonhunterq wrote:
The way it is written has nothing to do with it.

!!!!

Is it, in fact, your debating position that the correct way to understand the rules is to assume that the way they are written 'has nothing to do with it'?

The words say what they mean. 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

And when they say what they mean is important too.


I think the key part he's ignoring is where it says at 6th level" really there is no way to get a classes abilities before it gives them to you. Its not a prc with early entry.

Silver Crusade

@James Risner: re: Instant Alchemy; if that ability was a Wizard ability, and if, after saying that Alchemist's get this wizard ability at 18th level, and THEN said 'Alchemists with that wizard ability 'can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation', then a multi-class Alchemist/Wizard with that wizard ability could do what it says.

Re: 'ignoring the FAQ'; what FAQ? The one which says that you don't have an ability until you have it? The ability in question is Weapon Training, fighters get it at 5th, Weaponmasters get it at 3rd, Sohei get it at 6th, and the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 gets it at 4th level. Sohei can combine this ability with Flurry of Blows and Ki Strike. Because it says so. At 4th level the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 has both flurry and Weapon Training, and as written may combine those abilities.

Silver Crusade

Mojorat wrote:
I think the key part he's ignoring is where it says at 6th level" really there is no way to get a classes abilities before it gives them to you. Its not a prc with early entry.

It says that at 6th level Sohei get Weapon Training. Fighters get it at 5th, Weaponmasters get it at 3rd, Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 gets it at 4th.

It then says that Sohei with Weapon Training can flurry with those weapons.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
It then says that Sohei with Weapon Training can flurry with those weapons.

At 6th level.


What everyone is trying to say, is this:
If a class description contains a paragraph that begins with "at x. level" or a synonymous expression, everything that is part of that paragraph counts as being prefixed by the "at x. level" expression or its equivalent. If such an expression appears in the middle of a paragraph, only the rest of the current sentence is prefixed by it.

Level of course is CLASS LEVEL.

Hence, once a character of any character level acquires the 6th level of Sohei Monk, she can use flurry of blows with any weapon she is has weapon training in. Assuming that different abilities with the same name, count as the same ability as long as their are sufficiently similar as to allow a functional interpretation, if she is a Weapon Master 3/Sohei 6, she could chose a weapon for her Weapon Master weapon training that is not part of the weapon group chosen for the Sohei weapon training and then could flurry with all of those weapons.

Personal addendum:

If anything is at fault here it is the designers' general unwillingness to consider multiclassing and the tendency to use the same name for different abilities.

Both problems can be solved philosophically if one just assumes that what class gives a certain ability is part of its identity conditions. Hence, Sohei weapon training is a numerically different ability from Fighter weapon training and any mention of an ability in a class description refers only to that classes version of the ability. This still allows the Sohei's weapon training to count for weapon training simpliciter for the effects of feats or items


KutuluKultist wrote:

What everyone is trying to say, is this:

If a class description contains a paragraph that begins with "at x. level" or a synonymous expression, everything that is part of that paragraph counts as being prefixed by the "at x. level" expression or its equivalent. If such an expression appears in the middle of a paragraph, only the rest of the current sentence is prefixed by it.

Level of course is CLASS LEVEL.

Hence, once a character of any character level acquires the 6th level of Sohei Monk, she can use flurry of blows with any weapon she is has weapon training in. Assuming that different abilities with the same name, count as the same ability as long as their are sufficiently similar as to allow a functional interpretation, if she is a Weapon Master 3/Sohei 6, she could chose a weapon for her Weapon Master weapon training that is not part of the weapon group chosen for the Sohei weapon training and then could flurry with all of those weapons.

Personal addendum:

If anything is at fault here it is the designers' general unwillingness to consider multiclassing and the tendency to use the same name for different abilities.

Both problems can be solved philosophically if one just assumes that what class gives a certain ability is part of its identity conditions. Hence, Sohei weapon training is a numerically different ability from Fighter weapon training and any mention of an ability in a class description refers only to that classes version of the ability. This still allows the Sohei's weapon training to count for weapon training simpliciter for the effects of feats or items

With respect you are in danger of falling into the same trap as Malachi by over reading it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the RAW. A sohei6/WM3 has 2 WT groups. he can flurry with any weapon in either of those weapon groups. Our Sohei 1/WM3 cannot. The WT ability granted to Sohei at level 6 is modified by the ability to flurry etc. Until you get to sohei 6 you can't look at that ability to tell you to flurry.

An example - the new advanced class hunter - at level 3 you get a teamwork feat and an ability that lets you share ALL teamwork feats with you animal companion. This does not mean that if you take a teamwork feat at 1st level you can check the 3rd level ability and then share that feat with your AC. but that is essentially what Malachi is asserting. that you can check ahead and modify what your abilities do now by what you can do in the future.

Silver Crusade

KutuluKultist wrote:

What everyone is trying to say, is this:

If a class description contains a paragraph that begins with "at x. level" or a synonymous expression, everything that is part of that paragraph counts as being prefixed by the "at x. level" expression or its equivalent. If such an expression appears in the middle of a paragraph, only the rest of the current sentence is prefixed by it.

Level of course is CLASS LEVEL.

Hence, once a character of any character level acquires the 6th level of Sohei Monk, she can use flurry of blows with any weapon she is has weapon training in. Assuming that different abilities with the same name, count as the same ability as long as their are sufficiently similar as to allow a functional interpretation, if she is a Weapon Master 3/Sohei 6, she could chose a weapon for her Weapon Master weapon training that is not part of the weapon group chosen for the Sohei weapon training and then could flurry with all of those weapons.

Personal addendum:

If anything is at fault here it is the designers' general unwillingness to consider multiclassing and the tendency to use the same name for different abilities.

Both problems can be solved philosophically if one just assumes that what class gives a certain ability is part of its identity conditions. Hence, Sohei weapon training is a numerically different ability from Fighter weapon training and any mention of an ability in a class description refers only to that classes version of the ability. This still allows the Sohei's weapon training to count for weapon training simpliciter for the effects of feats or items

Oh, I understand the argument. It is just misapplied here.

The disconnect leading to this misapplication, which arises again in your personal addendum, is treating the Weapon Training gained at 6th level Sohei to be the same thing as fighter Weapon Training when it suits you and as a different thing when it doesn't. This is not the way to deduce which interpretation is correct!

The only correct way to do it is to consistently apply the same criteria for both possibilities; either it's the same for both, or it's different for both.

If they are two separate abilities, and if you are not allowed to look at abilities you don't have (per the FAQ), then that applies to both cases equally. That results in the single-classed Sohei not being allowed to look at the fighter Weapon Training on the grounds that he doesn't have it and is not allowed to look at it, resulting in a form of Weapon Training which doesn't give any attack or damage bonuses, rendering it unfit for purpose, and definitely not what the writer intended.

If they are the same ability (per SKR's assertion that the game assumes 'if they're the same then they're the same', and following the text which says 'as the fighter ability') then they are the same ability in both cases. Which means that having Weapon Training from any one source is the same as having Weapon Training from any other source. This means that, as is written, any Sohei with Weapon Training, from any source, can use flurry and Ki Strike with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training.

The only way to disagree with that is to apply logic inconsistently to each case, as a result of previous bias, being convinced of the rightness of your cause and consciously or subconsciously twisting the evidence to match your preconceptions.


The original question is solved by reference to generally agreed upon norms of reading. Those can be challenged, departed from or disagreed with. However, the fact that they are generally agreed upon is hard to deny. Similarly, that the rules text should be read as generally agreed upon, wherever such a general norm is present, is already implied by it being a norm.

Hence to deny the general principle is to reject a generally agreed upon norm, which simply put is to reject participation in the game for which the rule in question is a rule.

As for my personal addendum, that is concerned with an entirely different issue, namely the explicitly mentioned "unwillingness to consider multiclassing" and the identical names for different abilities.

Your original question is answered in its entirety by reference to the norm of reading class description that I have explicated. This should also answer dragonhunterq's worries.

I am sorry for digressing. Both issues are different and the reason I brought it up is that one might misconstrue the OP's issue with this issue, which I think really is an issue - as opposed to the OP's insisting on not accepting a basic norm of reading rules text.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
The only way to disagree with that is to apply logic inconsistently to each case, as a result of previous bias, being convinced of the rightness of your cause and consciously or subconsciously twisting the evidence to match your preconceptions.

There is no logic to apply inconsistently.

You apply consistent logic that if an ability says "At 6th level" you get all or none of it at 6th level.

Honestly this thread is done. It is abundantly clear Malachi won't listen to reason and no one can sway his opinion short of an FAQ that starts with "Malachi thought it works this way, it doesn't"

People in general are not confused by this issue and Malachi seems to be willing to post 1000 times of just the same responses. Can we all set a time to come together and make 1000 posts? I'd save us all a week of talking on this thread.


I don't get all the anger being thrown around in here. I see both readings as valid interpretations and both sides have an official FAQ they can reference for support. While it may not be top priority, this seems like the very purpose of the FAQ system.


This is not FAQ worthy. The answer is obvious.

Until Malachi or anyone can provide an example of benefitting from a class feature before you get it (which isn't explicitly allowed elsewhere in the rules, like spell trigger for Rangers), there is no rules ground for him to stand on.

You don't gain benefits from class features you don't have yet.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Torbyne wrote:
I see both readings as valid interpretations and both sides have an official FAQ they can reference for support.

I'm typically with your view. But this one runs counter to every convention we have.

Malachi interpretation allows you to separate out all abilities from all classes and take only the sentences you wish to take. So any ability that says "At Xth level do blah. Also blah" you get to keep all the "also blahs" with ever having to worry about needing to reach any level.

That isn't the correct interpretation and there absolutely is no FAQ to support it. The one I'm sure you or Malachi are thinking is the Sorcerer Bloodline FAQ. That ability doesn't have "At Xth level" qualifier.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Torbyne wrote:
I don't get all the anger being thrown around in here.

This isn't the first time this has been discussed, there are probably 3000 posts in various threads about it over the years. All from people who wish to ignore the "At 6th level" at the beginning of the ability. None of them ever get convinced. I feel sorry for all the tables they sit down to if they have a character using this. I'm sure it wastes 40 minutes of every session debating the rules. Because the people that won't accept it doesn't work their way won't accept it in person either.


I can't speak for Malachi but the FAQ I first thought of was the one specifically for a fighter's weapon training and all the archetypes out there that change it. My take away from that FAQ was the designers were very conscious of ability names and if they call it weapon training and not "sohei weapon training" or "monastic soldier weapon training" than it is to be thought of and treated as the core fighter ability, which leads to the interpretation that it's a level sohei and not the explicit 6th level class ability of sohei that changes the flurry rules. It's weird and I didn't think of it until I saw this thread but I can see where someone would read it and come to that conclusion now. Is it really so hard to believe that there would be two ways of reading it or that there would be multiple FAQ answers that both applied and countered each other? That's what happened with lances, bastard swords and katanas for a while, wasn't it? Anyways, I haven't seen this at any tables I play at so while I find it interesting theory crafting, I don't want to get too into the weeds on this one when there are still so many Warpriest threads to hate on.


Torbyne wrote:
I can't speak for Malachi but the FAQ I first thought of was the one specifically for a fighter's weapon training and all the archetypes out there that change it. My take away from that FAQ was the designers were very conscious of ability names and if they call it weapon training and not "sohei weapon training" or "monastic soldier weapon training" than it is to be thought of and treated as the core fighter ability, which leads to the interpretation that it's a level sohei and not the explicit 6th level class ability of sohei that changes the flurry rules. It's weird and I didn't think of it until I saw this thread but I can see where someone would read it and come to that conclusion now. Is it really so hard to believe that there would be two ways of reading it or that there would be multiple FAQ answers that both applied and countered each other? That's what happened with lances, bastard swords and katanas for a while, wasn't it? Anyways, I haven't seen this at any tables I play at so while I find it interesting theory crafting, I don't want to get too into the weeds on this one when there are still so many Warpriest threads to hate on.

The problem is that there's nothing to read - you don't get to look ahead at abilities you don't have and apply them before you've earned them, and the fighter or weaponmaster class feature (weapon training) you do have, does not cross-reference to the Sohei version.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Kwauss wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Is it really so hard to believe that there would be two ways of reading it or that there would be multiple FAQ answers that both applied and countered each other? That's what happened with lances, bastard swords and katanas for a while, wasn't it?
The problem is that there's nothing to read - you don't get to look ahead at abilities you don't have and apply them before you've earned them, and the fighter or weaponmaster class feature (weapon training) you do have, does not cross-reference to the Sohei version.

+1

@Torbyne - Those FAQ had multiple interpretations. But devs have said that no FAQ ever is in conflict with another. If there is a conflict they will alter or change the conflicting one. So with the lance, bastard sword, etc you need to choose a different interpretation if you come up with a conflict. Because your interpretation is wrong.

With this issue, there simply isn't any way to interpret it the way Malachi wants. There isn't any FAQ that doesn't block his way. In fact there are several FAQ that directly and overtly say you don't get an ability until you get it and all classes are written single classed. So if a class needs an ability and it has that ability by name, it still can't consider riders it would gain at a later level until it reaches that level.

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