Masked Murderer

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Three suggestions to the guide:

1) I feel you should include a section for advanced firearms. With Iron Gods, these weapons should be easily available. Their are two regions of the map where advanced firearms shouldn't be difficult to justify to most GMs (Starfall up north and Alkenstar/Mana Wastes down south). But are high tech cities where these weapons can be acquired.

2) Add Skinwalkers to the guide, especially the weretiger-kin. +2 Dex, +2 Perception and See in Darkness. See in Darkness is possibly is one of the best ranged abilities in the game. It's Darkvision with no maximum range. You can fire at people with no penalty out beyond the range of normal dark vision and can see in supernatural dark.

3) I have been working on a level 5 build with a friend of mine. You may want to add Ninja to the multi-class. I feel it makes a great gun build as early as level three.

Level 1 Gunslinger/Level 2 Ninja
Firearm Proficiency
Deeds (Level 1)
Sneak Attack +1d6
Ki Pool (1/2 Ninja Level + Cha mod)
Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick (Invisibility)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot

Within 30 feet, the character can go invisible and pop out making three sneak attack shots and at end of the attack, use a swift action to return invisible. Can be stacked with pistelero for bonus damage, or with sniper's goggle's/rapid reload/rifle for a nasty sneak attack sniper. With invisibility it allows for a handful of easily repeatable triple sneak attacks every day with the number increasing as the character gains ninja levels.

Azten wrote:
He cannot take AoO or threaten because you can only take standard actions on your turn. You might be able to ready an action to attack though.
Doomed Hero wrote:

Once per day while then the ring is active, yes.

The rest of the time, no.

Show the rule for this. While I agree you can't AoO because you don't have reach, being capable of AoO is not a pre-requisite to threaten. The rules only require you to be capable of making a melee attack into the square, not to actually activate the ring or perform the action.

Mathmuse wrote:
Bombs, on the other hand, are treated as being made right before they are used, so stealing the kit would stop bomb-throwing immediately.

Nope, you can use bombs for the rest of the day if you follow the recommendations from the Alchemist's abilities:

Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.

So if you keep your vial and potions separate from your pouch all you need to do is infuse the vials with mana then throw.

Does a Ring of Far Strike threaten all enemies within 30 feet by RAW?

Here is the rules for threatening:

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

Here is the ring:

Ring of Far Strike
Source Ranged Tactics Toolbox pg. 29
Aura moderate transmutation CL 8th
Slot ring; Price 6,000 gp; Weight —
This unassuming black ring changes color to a silver pearlescent sheen when held near a fire. Once per day as a standard action, the wearer can make a melee weapon attack or unarmed strike attack against any opponent within 30 feet. The wearer must be otherwise capable of performing the attack to use this ability.
Requirements Forge Ring, mage hand, spectral hand; Cost 3,000 gp

Since the user can attack within 30 feat, does he threaten that area as well? If so, that a cheap way to give allies flanking bonuses. Especially if combined with the feat Gang Up.

claudekennilol wrote:
Nazerith wrote:
Yes. The ally would gain the AC bonus from Aid Another, and would get an attack of opportunity at a +4 bonus.
Did you even read the question? I do realize that it was a yes or no question so the yes may be in response to the actual question. The bolded part of your response makes me think you completely glazed over the question as it doesn't have anything to do with what should be in an answer to the question that was asked.
Misroi wrote:

The issue is that Bodyguard is giving you a way to use your Attacks of Opportunity on actions that don't normally trigger the use of AoOs. In this case, you're giving up options to attack targets later in the round in order to help one of your allies avoid an attack. Obviously, attacking someone with a weapon doesn't normally provoke an AoO, and Bodyguard is very careful to suggest that it doesn't. It still counts against your limit of 1+Dex modifier AoOs per round, though.

The question really should be stated as "does the use of attacks of opportunity granted by the Bodyguard feat count as 'provoked' attacks of opportunity, like casting in melee combat or moving through a threatened area?" That would solve the underlying question, as everything else uses standard game terminology that I believe we all agree upon.

There are other examples of using up Attacks of Opportunity without the word provoke being used. If I asked that question, then the answer would be too specific. But I believe an answer to this question would still cover other cases. (see Seize the Moment)

This is something I see a lot on these forums that really bugs me. Game makers like to consistently use the same wording to avoid confusion. But using the wording over and over doesn't magically turn it into a "game term".

Game Terms are terminology specific to a game that different from its normal definition. But provoke isn't a game term, its just being used as its normal English definition. Just because the wording is consistent doesn't mean it magically gained some alternate meaning.

If Body Guards causes an Attack of Opportunity effect, then it is being provoked. Because that's what provoke means...

You don't have to literally use the word provoke for the wording to have the same meaning.

So let's go through this step by step.

1: Enemy attacks Ally.
2: Provokes AoO
3: Bodyguard uses the AoO as aid Another
4: Paired Opportunists is triggered by #2 and gains AoO and bonus.

This only works if #2 occurs. To me the only question is whether the Bodyguard feat generates its own AoO or if it requires the AoO to come from some other mechanic or feat.

If Bodyguard DOES NOT create an AoO then "provoking" the AoO would come from a different mechanic or source. But this doesn't seem to be the intent at all. It seems the Bodyguard feat generates or "provokes" its own AoO without requiring a second source.

It can be used before and after. Dispel only suppresses the magical properties for 1d4 rounds.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item's caster level (DC = 11 + the item's caster level). If you succeed, all the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers its magical properties. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional opening (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item's physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Unattached: Unable to be attached for 1d4 rounds.

Attached: Goes limp and loses all power for 1d4 rounds.

Actually that was my reaction to this quote:

claudekennilol wrote:
No it doesn't. "Provokes" is a very specific term which bodyguard doesn't have. Bodyguard doesn't work with Paired Opportunists.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

claudekennilol and I have been arguing about this on the 2 threads below.

Broken Wing Gambit + In Harm's Way

Guide to Attacks of Opportunity

I have cast my vote in favor for this as a proposed FAQ.

But...but....provoke just means to cause or initiate something. I don't think anyone would argue that Bodyguard causes an AoO.

The feat would do nothing if that was the case. You don't even need to talk about Paired Opportunists at all.

Yes. The ally would gain the AC bonus from Aid Another, and would get an attack of opportunity at a +4 bonus.

Melkiador wrote:
Nazerith wrote:
A form is a general shape. This is why some molds are referred to as forms.
That's a horrible example for your argument. You are aware that we make molds of real people all of the time, specifically to make something that looks like a part of that specific person, usually the face.

I agree, but when you take it out of the mold it doesn't look like the original person. Skilled painters and artists spend many hours of very detailed labor to make them look alike. The mold was the base, its the details, paint and finishing that add the likeness and appearance.

Dave Justus wrote:
I don't know of any 'proof' but if I was running the game I would rule that true seeing would reveal the true nature of an academical simulacrum.

This makes for a really interesting case. Let's look at True Seeing:


You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

So True Seeing let's you see them as they actually are. But otherwise no special knowledge is imparted. If "what it really is" appears to be a physical creature that looks like the owner, I would interpret that to mean you wouldn't know that thing isn't human.

Does the explanation make sense and hold water?

Does True Seeing let you know a Tiefling isn't human? I would consider these two scenarios to be identical.

Alright, I follow you. Let's assume the first part and ignore the familiar for a second.

So when that character advances to level 6 and gains Ice Storm, she would add a single 4th Level bonus spell slot that could only be filled with Ice Storm. When she gets to Level 7 she would have two spell slots (one that has to be a ice storm and one that could be anything from her spell list).

I must be doing a poor job explaining myself. To be honest I don't know the Winter Witch example specifically, but let me build a hypothetical level 3 character with these spell slots:

Joe the Awesome
0-Level: 4
1-Level: 2
2-Level: 1

Joe gains a level and through some method (feat? archetype? race?) he gains access to Dispel Magic as a bonus spell. This is listed as a 3rd level spell on all spell lists. Now Joe has these spell slots as a level 4 character.

Joe the Awesome
0-Level: 4
1-Level: 3
2-Level: 2
3-Level: 1 (bonus spell only)

Joe has a 3rd level bonus spell slot that can only be used for Dispel Magic. Even though he is only Level 4 he's capable of casting one and only one 3rd level spell. He'll have to wait until Level 5 to get a slot he can use for any other spell from his spell list.

Melkiador wrote:
But arguing that way means that it would be valid for the multiclassed Oracle to use Flaming Sphere as a 1st level spell, because that's the level they were at when they gained it.

No you are saying to opposite. I'm saying the level of the character has no bearing on the level of the spell. Caster Level and Spell Level are distinct and separate.

A first level character could theoretically cast a 5th level spell if he had the scroll. This isn't unusual or game breaking. And it doesn't make the scroll a 1st level spell. Character wealth make this difficult but not impossible.

Leonhart Steelmane wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
You can't even ride around in an iron golem, since it has the restriction of same size category.... you'd be limited to stuff like... animated objects.
oh right, didn't realise golems are large, figured they were medium. my mistake.

Or you could use a medium construct: kwork-soldier kwork-mage n arsman soldier-animated-object-fighter-1 nnequin rapyard

Course you might be hard pressed to get it by your GM. ;)

Melkiador wrote:
That would mean that the Winter Patron Witch couldn't cast their Ice Storm at level 6 though, since for all classes that is a 4th level spell, and the witch can't cast 4th level spells until 7th level.

So a Drow Noble can't cast Deeper Darkness until they hit level 5 because it's a 3rd level spell like ability? I know spells and SLAs are different, but we have characters casting above their spell level all the time. This isn't anything new.

It means that your Winter Patron Witch would be able to cast a 4th level spell earlier than normal. That's all it means.

Elitechobohax wrote:
Thats as little "proof" as everyone else as once again, i can define "visible shape" to be every visible aspect and feature - Yes, having a dimple, crowsfeet and a lazy eye is also a part of the "shape". You can argue that i chose to do that to be on the other side of things and that would be correct, but you cannot claim "for sure" thats how its intended to be read and understood. And something as small as DNA is a configuration, according to science, so if i can configure my DNA, i sure can get myself to look exactly as i would want (But we are getting off the fantasy-world base here)

This will be my last response, because its silly to argue with someone who refuses to use a word correctly. A form is a general shape. This is why some molds are referred to as forms. For example, you use a form to set the shape of concrete on a building. This has nothing to do with what color or decorations, that create its appearance.

You are attempting to twist the English language to assume the answer you want to be true, rather than the meaning that is correct.

Like I said their were old FAQs that said how to calculate. Roughly it was the lowest spell level that was the same type (arcane/divine) of spell list.

So in your example, those would be 2nd level spells since they are 2nd level on all spell lists.

Woah, woah, woah. Please calm down and let's stop this argument. This is a simple issue of definition. We don't need rules to solve this puzzle.

form - noun
1. the visible shape or configuration of something.

You take on the FORM of something, its general shape and configuration. That is entirely separate from having an identical appearance. Two pairs of running shoes can have the same form but look different.

Form is a more general term than appearance. Saying two things have the same form means they fit into the same category in how they are shaped, constructed, and operate.

So you are asking for spells from a different spell list. I know before they changed it, they had a FAQ that told you how to calculate the spell level of SLAs, but they removed it. I would have used the same methodology.

I don't understand the confusion. Every spell is its printed spell level. Whether you get it earlier or later has no impact.

Yes, this means that sometimes a character has a bonus spell that a higher level than her normal spells. But so what? This has always been the case with races that get SLAs for higher level spells.

Bonus spells get their own separate spell slots. So you may have several level 2 spell slots and a single level 3 bonus spell slot.

To be clear, polymorph RARELY affects plants but it can. Spells like "polymorph any Object" still effect plants.

Wild Shape is a supernatural effect rather than a polymorph spell. Its intrinsic to the class. So its a fairly gray area. I would personally allow it, but I some GMs would disagree.

Thanael wrote:

Alchemists can create alchemical simulacrums that requires 24 hours to grow, and decays into inert flesh rather than ice or snow if killed. The created simulacrum is a creature, not a supernatural effect.

See the alchemical (lesser) simulacrum and doppelganger simulacrum discoveries.

A clone master alchemist can project into such a simulacrum.

This could be possible, I'm an Investigator. But how does that work with True Seeing? Would you know its not a person? Or becuase its a physical creature, instead of magical, does True Seeing fail to work?

Dave Justus wrote:
Depending on how much control you desire, probably the best is a mundane servant with a very high disguise skill. Leadership would give you a cohort that could be good enough. At that point, communication is your only hurdle and that is easily accomplished.

I'm considering this possibility. As I'm lawful evil, dominating a servant would be possible. And mundane disguises are immune to True Seeing.

Snowblind wrote:
True seeing is the really nasty one.


Snowblind wrote:
b)figure out a way of getting Mindblank on it constantly, which can be done with scrolls but is horrifically expensive in the long term. Maybe a custom item? (still costly and requires GM approval, but less long term cost).

Mindblank? not familiar with that one.

Don't all raise your hands at once! lol

Leonhart Steelmane wrote:
Is a Rod a Staff?


Xuldarinar wrote:

Might as well throw in another question for this one.

What does the Master Craftsman feat do for all this?

Let's you take the Craft Wondrous Item Feat, but Phylactery specifically requires "The character must be able to cast spells".

Many rods count as light or heavy maces.

So I find myself in a situation where I need a duplicate to watch my house and deal with guests long term. I am trying to find ways to accomplish this (simulacrum? illusion? polymoph?). It doesn't need to be combat worthy, just do four things.

1) Appear identical to the original character.
2) Can be viewed or controlled remotely.
3) Capable of performing speech and normal actions (shake hands, ect.)
4) Not detected by True Seeing

Any combination of spells, disguises or other effect to accomplish this? Assume money is infinite and all spell lists are available.

Sorry for Necromancy, but I wanted to point out one thing I noticed. Master Intellect allows Inspiration to be used on Initiative which doesn't appear to be possible otherwise.

Quantum Steve wrote:
ARGH! wrote:

It would not work. Adept familiar requires summon familiar class feature. EH arcane is not a class feature. It grants a familiar, but not the "summon familiar" ability.

As worded, although interesting, it is, unfortunately, not legal.

Yeah, those kinds of inane subtleties aren't really relevant in PF.

SKR on PF design philosophy

^ Exactly.

And this exact interpretation was already debated here two years ago and judged to be a valid way to purchase Adept Channel.

Either way, I'm more interested in if this makes a stronger combat build than a single class Battle Oracle. Overall it seems to have more gains than losses.

EvilPaladin wrote:
I'd just dip a level of cleric even if the Adept Channel thing does work[no idea whether or not it does]. Get domains like Growth and Travel, Separatist archetype if you need to, have a few prepareable spell slots lying around for downtime, and get proficiency in another weapon[potentially an exotic one]. It does cost you a CL, so you probably want to take it in place of a Holy Vindicator level, but I think it could be worth it if you have at least an 11Wis. Not necessarily the most optimal, but it saves you 2 feats at least.

I had considered that and it has side effects:

  • One, it would put you an additional level behind for gaining spells. So you would have to switch to Oracle 13/Cleric 1/HV 6 to keep your level 9 spells and you would lose maximized healing.
  • Two, the Eldritch Heritage doesn't give you nothing so its not a completely wasted feat. Several of the familiars can give init or ac bonuses (Greensting Scorpion for +4 init!) so it can really add or stack well with several other combat feats.
  • Three, you would lose +2 BAB and the fourth attack.

Overall, it really only seems to save you a single feat since Eldritch Heritage is just as good as improved init. But you lose several fairly nice features as a trade-off.

Adept Channel grants the Channel Energy class feature. It requires a familiar to gain, which is gained from Eldritch Heritage (Arcane).

I've seen lots of posts about and Oracle of Life going into Holy Vindicator (HV) prestige class. But it seems a more fitting choice for a battle oriented oracle.

I'm curious if anyone has played a Combat focused Oracle such as Battle/Metal/Ancestors/Wood that went into the Holy Vindicator prestige class. If so, your thoughts on it?

If you take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), Adept Channel and the required channeling feat you can become a Holy Vindicator as early as level 8. If you wanted level 9 spells by 20, you would need to be Oracle 12/HV 8.

Lose 3 Mystery spells, 2 Revelations and Final Revelation.
Receive 3 less level 9 spells and 1 less level 8.
Gain spells 1-3 levels behind a cleric.
Lose 3 Feat slots to get prestige class.
8 Levels without favored class bonus.

Missing Revelations can be purchased with feats.
8 levels of d10 hit dice.
+2 BAB which gives a fourth attack.
+2 Fort, +1 Ref Saves
Channel as level 17 cleric. (only usable twice a day)
Gain level 18 Familiar.
Holy Vindicator abilities up to level 8 including maximized heal spells, channel smite, and bonuses to AC.

Edited: Add some Downsides and Upsides I forgot.

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plaidwandering wrote:
Yep, we have repeatedly shown the FAQ link for that and they somehow imagine it does not apply

Actually it does apply, but the other way around. A Sohei at level 1 has gained Weapon Training because their class (Weapon Master) says they gained it.

All of the arguments here basically state you must acquire the Sohei Weapon Training to flurry. As I linked in the other post their is no such thing. Their is not a "Sohei version" and a "Fighter version". Not only does one reference the other, but one of the game designers outright stated that just because wording may be slightly different between books, all versions are the same. Game Design

So, Sohei 1/Weapon Master 3 has access to the Sohei version. Because they are the same ability and Sohei can use that ability with flurry.

Is it good or bad that it works? I'm sure plenty of people here can analyze and figure out if this route is efficient or not. I'd expect that compared to other builds its not overpowered versus other less debated options.

MMCJawa wrote:

I think the idea wasn't to make existing animals more scary, but to stat up scary things that are still lacking in the bestiaries

What about the Bobbit Worm?

^ Pretty Much.

Some things in the real world are more terrifying than half the Bestiary, lol.

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Sohei Weapon Mastery is a duck and Warrior Weapon Mastery is a duck. The Sohei can flurry using all ducks.

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Kwauss wrote:
By this logic, I could be a second level rogue, and select 'weapon training' as my rogue talent, and flurry with my focused weapon with 1 level of Sohei, right?

No. Even if they have the same name this ability grants weapon focus. It does not point to the same rules set (Fighter Weapon Training). You can see a discussion about similar abilities being the same here, where they talk about channeling.

If the rogue talent granted Weapon Training per the Fighter Weapon Training ability, then you could.

Kwauss wrote:
If I have 1 level of Foehammer (fighter) and 6 of Sohei, I can't choose any weapon group but hammers for my weapon training? It says it right there in the 5th level ability for Foehammer that they can't. If I hit level 12 Sohei I can't have a second weapon training because of this restriction? If the other text applies, at what rate does it improve?

You are asking the wrong question. You need to answer this one first: If you were a lvl 5 Foehammer and gained Sohei level 6, what do you gain? Do you gain additional weapon training even though you clearly have a class feature that says you can't? If you don't can the sohei still flurry with hammers?

To be honest I don't know. I can see strong arguments both ways and I feel its a case where RAW and RAI are different. But whatever answer you pick should still hold true at Foehammer lvl 1.

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At least two people, myself included, have agreed with Malachi's interpretation. So its not as clear as people are trying to make it out to be.

Mechagamera wrote:
Given the variety of spider, scorpion, and crab sizes in the bestiaries, I see no reason that Pathfinder couldn't have giant mantis shrimp range from small to almost kaiju sized (in fact, you could have a full on kaiju mantis shrimp like a tougher version of Ebirah from Godzilla vs the Sea Monster).

I've been giving this some thought and I may come back to the final version and do this. Have the Mantis Shrimp grow as it ages like a dragon. I can even envision a Unique Colossal Version that can be a custom Spawn of Rovagug (see template here) The unique version will be named "Stomatopod" :)

I've jotted down a basic idea below. Its not a complete sheet and misses many vital things (like attributes and skills). But I wanted to try to capture all the special abilities of the Awesome Mantis Shrimp. I've not made up any abilties as best I can and incorporated many things said above.

But frankly, just writing down everything a Mantis Shrimp can do is pretty terrifying.

First Draft:
Stomatopod (Mantis Shrimp)
NE Medium Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Senses darkvision 120 ft., low-light vision, true seeing

hp 16d10

Speed 30ft., Swim 60ft., Burrow 10 ft.
Melee 2 Appendages 1d10 (18-20) (See Ability)
Space 5ft.; Reach 5ft.
Base Atk +16;

Feats Endurance, Double Slice, Great Fortitude, Greater Vital Strike, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lunge, Run
SQ amphibious, hard shell, pounce, shoreline mastery

Hard Shell (Ex)

The Natural Armor Bonus of the Mantis Shrimp cannot be reduced or ignored by mundane means.

True Seeing (Ex)

Mantis Shrimp can see the entire spectrum including things which are normally invisible. This functions as true seeing, as the spell of the same name. This effect cannot be dispelled.

Shoreline Mastery (Ex)

The multilimbed nature of the Mantis Shrimp allows it to ignore the effects of uneven or difficult terrain. This does not apply to terrain magically manipulated to impede movement.

Appendages (Ex)

The several breeds of Mantis Shrimp exists and can have one of two possible appendages.
Spearers are armed with spiny appendages topped with barbed tips, used to snag and stab prey. This type of appendage gains a +10 bonus to Trip, Drag and Grapple Menuevers. On a successful attack, the Mantis Shrimp can make a free attempt to perform any of these maneuvers. The Mantis Shrimp gains Improved Drag, Improved Grapple and Improved Trip as bonus feats.
Smashers possess a claw that is a combined club and spear that is used to bludgeon and smash enemies while the inner side possesses a sharp edge. This type of appendage gains +10 bonus on Sunder attempts. On a successful attack, the Mantis Shrimp can make a free attempt to perform a sunder attempt. The Mantis Shrimp gains Improved Sunder and Improved Critical as bonus feats.

Rapid Strikes (Ex)

The Mantis Shrimp rapidly and precisely attacks an enemy tearing it to peices and ripping away limbs. This functions as Greater Two-Weapon Fighting but can only be used with its natural weapons. Once per mintue when using Rapid Strikes, The Mantis Shrimp can use its precise eyesight and speed to gain a bonus to the first melee strike as a swift action. This bonus functions as the spell True Strike.

Supercavitation Shockwave (Ex)

Once per minute, as a standard action a giant mantis shrimp can move its pincer so quickly that is generate heat and a shockwave. This super-heated shockwave shoots forth in a 30 ft. cone and causes fire and sonic damage per the spell detonate (using Hit Dice as caster levels). Half this damage is fire-based and half is sonic. As part of the attack the Mantis Shrimp can make a free melee strike on any enemy in range that is in the area of the cone.

Color Shifting Shell

The Mantis Shrimp shell can change color to match it environment or to dazzle its opponents. It gains a +10 bonus to stelth checks and gains the following spell-like abilities using its hit dice as the caster level: Rainbow Pattern and Blur. Each ability can be used once per minute.

Ravingdork wrote:
Real world mantis shrimp = Pathfinder's Tetrolimulus

Pretty close, especially the description and definitely a good start. We can remove the scorpion tail and add some additional abilities. I could see any of the following:

True Vision
Hypnotic Pattern
True Strike
Detonate [Sonic, Cone]

Is Huge a bit too large? I'm thinking maybe a Large or Medium Mantis shrimp could be pretty terrifying.

chaoseffect wrote:
If you are open to any official race you can pretty much get anything except both strength and intelligence iirc, but you bring up a good point about that not always being possible so Dual Talent has its niche. I still don't think it makes Dual Talent a good choice in any context for Zen Archer though as the benefits of Dwarf (if strict core) or perhaps Oread, Duergar, or Oni Tiefling if not, greatly out-weigh the human benefit of +2 to 2 with no negatives.

Scaleheart Skinwalker? ;)

+2 Int -2 Wis, +2 Str while shape changed.

This isn't for any particular game, just as a fun exercise. So I would like to challenge the people of the forum to a simple task. There is a real world creature I would like to make much larger and pick out appropriate mechanics and abilities (spell-like?). What creature? The terror of the deep: the Mantis Shrimp.

If you don't know what one is see here:

The Oatmeal: Why the Mantis Shrimp is my new favorite animal.
True Facts about the Mantis Shrimp

What size should it be? What do its attacks look like? How high is its AC and DR? What Pathfinder abilities are appropriate?

No matter how crazy the ideas I will try to weave them all into one glorious whole.

Some Facts:

  • Humans see three colors (red, green, blue), Mantis shrimp see sixteen.
  • Mantis shrimp can change the color of its shell to match its environment and can appear as a dazzling array of colors.
  • The mantis shrimp's attack can break the sound barrier, create water shockwaves and generates enough heat to make water give off light.
  • The mantis shrimp's shell is one of the strongest known materials.
  • The mantis shrimp violently attacks prey by beating it and severing off its limbs.

Edit: Added some facts which I think should be considered.

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plaidwandering wrote:

Are you guys thinking the flurry text isn't part of the class feature because it's on page 61, and the class feature starts on page 60?

There's no new section heading, it's all one class feature.

No, you misunderstand. No one argues the text is located in the level 6 ability. The contention is that the only ability you gain at level six is Weapon Training. It is just descriptive text regarding how Weapon Training works for Sohei, placed in its most natural position and not a specific ability gained at level 6. Since Sohei does not have a section dedicated to Flurry, it could not have been located there.

chaoseffect wrote:
Tormsskull wrote:
I'm actually surprised at the number of people saying that the GM should tell the player that they are playing their character wrong. Most of the time the forums ring the "the player controls everything about his PC, the GM doesn't get a say" bell as loud as possible.
I see it as if I'm the DM and you want to be an ass in-character to all my NPCs or even other PCs, that's fine as long as you accept there are consequences (The town guards won't accept "I'm just playing my character so leave me alone" as an excuse to justify you murdering the inn keeper), but once you start being an ass to other players you crossed the line. Feel free to play your PC any way you like, but don't go out of your way to make the game less fun for the other real life people involved.


You can play however you want until you start ruining the game for other people.

The crux comes down to an interpretation of the phrase "A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training." The two interpretations are:

1) That the level six ability is actually two separate abilities gained together, the Weapon Training and the Sohei ability to modify flurry.

2) That Weapon Training is the only ability gained at level six. The text that falls at the end is only intended to describe how Weapon Training works for the Sohei class and is not a separate ability but an intrinsic quality to the class. The location of the text is its natural placement because this is the first level where Sohei gain Weapon Training.

Without a FAQ there is no outright correct interpretation.

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FAQ wrote:

You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).

If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces that class feature, you do not have that class feature. For example, if your archetype replaces a rogue's sneak attack, you no longer have the sneak attack class feature (whether a requirement is as general as "sneak attack" or as specific as "sneak attack +1d6," you do not qualify for it).

That FAQ? Yes I read it. And I don't see a single place that matches what you've said. Just because he gained the feature from another class doesn't change how it functions. When you gain the feature, you gain the feature. Its simple as that. Unless stated otherwise the source of the feature doesn't change how it works. Just because how it works is described in a level 6 ability, doesn't mean you have to wait until level 6 for it to work that way.

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plaidwandering wrote:
that text is ALL part of the Sohei class feature, which you don't have until you actually get it via level 6 Sohei, read Ssalarn's FAQ link.

Actually their is no rule (or FAQ) to support this conclusion. Since the Sohei Weapon Training says it functions as the fighter class feature this means the two are interchangeable. The rules for Weapon Training for Sohei modify how the Weapon Training feature works for the class, but they as still the same feature and work interchangeably.

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