Query: Are you interested in any of the Monk archetypes? If there si a certain feel to combat you would like, (maneuvers focus, styles, grappling, e.t.c.) they are the way to go.
Also, I notice that you don't have any style feats, which can really add to the power of monks.
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I'll just say, the reason people are down on Monks, is that compared to other classes that are in similar roles in the party, they under perform.
And lets be more clear, they have low AC (without party buffs), low HP, their itemization in the game is a joke, require more stat investment and tended to do far less damage.
Considering the archetypes and feats now available, I don't feel they are so bad off as say Monk was with only the core book available.
As far as your monk goes, I am finding it hard to see what you are really going for. If you are having fun, who gives a crap what anyone on a forum thinks?
If you are looking for ways at improving your damage, or defenses or skills or something, ask away!
Without knowing anything about the campaign, GM style, your concept, or the other characters, there is no way to tell you where you went wrong or right. Your character could be over-, under-, or perfectly-powered depending on the campaign.
What do you think is especially good about this? I'm not being mean or anything, but I just don't see anything great. Your damage output seems kind of low, for example, and your feat choice is vastly less than optimal.
Monks are not really bad, but they are laden with trap choices that the vast majority of Monk players seem to fall into.
I have a house-rule on monks: They get 10 higher point buy to mitigate the MAD, and cannot multi-class. Dipping monk grants you nothing.
They still pale compared to actual combatants, but at least they don't suck QUITE so bad.
I mean, taking a comparison off the top of my head; at lv7, my paladin had AC24, +13/+6 to hit, did 1d10+12 damage or so. Give your example monk a little more strength or wis, and he is still nowhere close.
And then compare it to the optimized fighter in my kingmaker campaign, who could take on a dozen of your monks at the same level, and... yeah.
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Monks need to be strong in mind and body. Unfortunately, most point buys only get you so far, and you have to dump Cha and Int.
Magic shop owners overcharge them on their magic weapons (The Amulet of Mighty Fists), claiming that since the Unarmed Strike can be done with any part of the body, it takes extra magic to enchant for that. With low Int and Cha, the Monk is too stupid to know better, or too bad at bargaining to get a fair price.
There is a legend that Monk tears can be substituted for diamonds in resurrection spells, so everyone is constantly saying bad things about the Monk.
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I have a house-rule on monks: They get 10 higher point buy to mitigate the MAD, and cannot multi-class. Dipping monk grants you nothing.Why? I mean, if they allegedly suck so bad, let the PCs multiclass away.
Monks are myeh until they get Ki pool; then they accelerate.They still pale compared to actual combatants, but at least they don't suck QUITE so bad.
I mean, taking a comparison off the top of my head; at lv7, my paladin had AC24, +13/+6 to hit, did 1d10+12 damage or so. Give your example monk a little more strength or wis, and he is still nowhere close.
And then compare it to the optimized fighter in my kingmaker campaign, who could take on a dozen of your monks at the same level, and... yeah.
<cracking knucklers>
20pt PFS dwarf monk
STR:10
DEX:16
CON+16
INT:12
WIS+17
CHA-05
00 saves Ba Ft Rf Wi (*includes dwarf +2 vs magic)
01 monk1 00 07 07 07 [Dodge], (5 skills/Lvl), Weapon Finesse
02 monk2 01 08 08 08 [Mobility]
...without a single piece of equipment, all saves are +8 versus magic at 2nd level, and AC is 17 Touch or 21 while moving through threat.
Everything is core rulebook so far; now let's splash around a little:
03 monk3 02 10 10 10 [move+10], Steel Soul
04 monk4 03 11 12 12 [Ki Pool][AC+1], [WIS>18
Between 4th and 5th, we're buying both a dexterity belt and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. We also have a ring-pro; and AC is 21 at 4th, or +25 with Ki bump. Attacks: unarmed strikes 2x 1d8+4, or 3x w/Ki.
05 monk5 03 11 12 13 Scorpion Style
06 monk6 04 12 13 14 [Move+20][Gorgon's Fist]
07 monk7 05 13 14 16 WF:Unarmed Strike
By 7th or shortly thereafter, we've picked up all of a +1 cloak, +1 bracers, a wisdom headband, and Monk's Robes. AC is 25, or 29/Ki, and a full-attack w/Ki is +10/+10/+10/+5 for 2d6+4
Fight M.O.: Rnd 1: charge foe, Ki to AC (27, or 31 versus AoOs), +14 Scorpion Strike. DC 18 fort-save or foe is slowed. (Foe attacks on its turn or withdraws.) Next turn, we either Flurry for four attacks (seven Stunning Fists per day available), or move-and-attack to Gorgon's Fist and stagger him.
= = = = =
So, summation: monks are bloody awesome.
Put anything with DR against that Dwarf Monk of yours. I dare you. Also, with what cash do you intend to get that Amulet of Mighty Fists? Monks are as good as the DM is generous. Then again, I think that applies to all classes (though it applies much more to melee classes than to casters, seriously), since my party was able to beat an Adult Blue Dragon (CR 10, was it?) while they were level 8 and stacked to the brim with magic items since I made a mistake with the Wealth By Level charts and the Paladin smote the s*** out of it.
I've seen monks played excellently time and time again but for me their true wealth is their concept. Who didn't watch a Kung Fu movie when they were little and wished they could do all and thats what the monk is about, you get to go all out Asian on your enemies with nothing but your fists then leap through the air, forward-flip and land perfectly on the corpses of fallen foes. You can be Bruce Lee, its awesome
I still claim that giving the monk pounce (alternatively 1 level Synthesist dip for that) is the best and quickest fix.
Also question: can you jump through the air on a charge?
I don't think they are under powered. I think they are more difficult.
I haven't seen that many and only played until mid levels.
The only one that did poorly was the one where the player wanted to be everything; the scout, the melee machine, the skill monkey, the maneuver master, the etc...
If they were built to be good at one thing and maybe backup for one other they did very well.
The trap I think with monks is that so many of their cool abilities key of wisdom but their offense basically depends on strength. By RAW (no enchanting handwraps/knuckles) their to hit lags behind other martial classes and neglecting strength just widens the gap.
For an optimised offensively minded monk have a look at the following character from my PBM game: LINK . Bear in mind this uses the older brass knuckles rules.
eh my sensei monk is awesome. party buffer extrodianire
the game im running i have seen the monk character save the day he has a good ac and does good enough damage. took out the bbg after everyone else fell unconscious. managed to stun him once to buy time and finish him off because of his high saves.
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The whole "monks got no AC" is becoming really old. An optimized monk may reach 45 AC at level 12 and still have a correct offense or a perfectly good support role.
Seriously this.
My group just wrapped up a Savage Tide game, and my monk had the highest AC in the party by a good margin (63 at its highest). I was pretty well out-damaged by the fighter and alchemist, but I was basically untouchable, immovable, never provoked, and quite easily made every save. Defense only gets so far in this game, but if you have the correct idea for your role (supporting offense, moving anywhere in the battlefield and knocking on noggins when you have to show why you're up there), people will be impressed by your resilience in the most dangerous of circumstances (as in, right in front of the BBEG stopping him from stomping all over the party).
I just played a monk for the majority of a 1-20, and I had fun doing it. I think that means I win. a.k.a. monks are not bad.
Care to explain what and why they are "vastly less than optimal?" and what better choices are?What do you think is especially good about this? I'm not being mean or anything, but I just don't see anything great. Your damage output seems kind of low, for example, and your feat choice is vastly less than optimal.
Monks are not really bad, but they are laden with trap choices that the vast majority of Monk players seem to fall into.
A monk's primary attribute is Strength. It doesn't matter how many cool things you can do with Wisdom, Strength is #1, Wisdom is #2 and Dex/Con are tied for #3.
A monk's top priority is taking advantage of the times when they have full BAB (i.e. when they are using a Maneuver or a Flurry of Blows). To this end, you want every round to be spent making a full attack (potentially with Shurikens if you have to) or moving into a position that you can make a full attack next round and using a maneuver with your standard action.
Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything are terrible. Improvised weapons can't be used with a flurry, making them suboptimal.
Skill Focus (anything ever) is pointless, especially compared to what you could have taken--at least you put it in the most important skill in the game, so it's forgivable.
Improved Trip is pretty good, as Trip is a fantastic maneuver, but you can't get Greater Trip with your dumped Int, so I wouldn't have bothered.
Power Attack is the most important feat for a monk. Seriously. It lets you deal extra damage on all your attacks, and there's no such thing as an off-hand monk unarmed strike, so none of them deal half Strength or half power attack or anything.
Deadly Aim is probably the next most important to use with your Shurikens when you can't make a full attack in melee, but at a certain point, you'll stop throwing Shurikens and this will be vastly less important.
Then you want Maneuvers you can use when you have to move and are thus limited to a standard action--but most importantly, you want maneuvers you can eventually qualify for the Greater version of. That means specifically you're probably looking for Grapple and Bullrush.
Other feats, well, you want ones that let you keep enemies close to you, so you can keep full attacking. The Step Up line, for example.
Oh, and you want weapons. Trust me. You want, at the very least, a silver weapon, a cold iron weapon, and an adamantine weapon, and you definitely want at least one slashing and one piercing one to complement your unarmed strike (and make sure all of these are Monk weapons that you can flurry with!).
Like I said, Monks are not actually bad, they're just easy to mess up.
I have a house-rule on monks: They get 10 higher point buy to mitigate the MAD, and cannot multi-class. Dipping monk grants you nothing.Why? I mean, if they allegedly suck so bad, let the PCs multiclass away.
Because people would play a Monk 1/Whatever they really want 19 to get the +10 point buy.
STR:10
DEX:16
CON+16
INT:12
WIS+17
CHA-05
This means you can't get power attack, so your damage will always suffer, whether or not you have Agile on your Amulet.
Fight M.O.: Rnd 1: charge foe, Ki to AC (27, or 31 versus AoOs), +14 Scorpion Strike. DC 18 fort-save or foe is slowed.
You can't Scorpion Strike on a charge--a charge is a full round action and you need to attack as a standard action to use Scorpion Style. Scorpion Style is easily one of the worst feats any monk could ever take because it wastes your turn. Medusa's Wrath is amazing, but Monks can take that while ignoring pre-reqs, so, seriously, never take Scorpion Style. The same goes for Gorgon's whatever. Just skip them and get Medusa's Wrath.
So, summation: you fell into all the traps that give monks a bad repuation, but I'm glad you're still having fun and are evidently in a non-optimized party that can still make you feel awesome.
As of Ultimate Combat, I'd say that anyone that says monks are bad is willfully ignoring the incredible breadth of powerful options now available to them, and the possible potency of those options.
A lot of the primary concerns for the class have been addressed, and they get powerful, early access to otherwise precious feats and abilities.
Martial Artist (DR? Whats DR?), Maneuver Master (Full Attack + Bonus Maneuvers + Non-Stat Dependant Maneuver Feat Access? Woo!), Master of Many Styles (Styles. Are. Awesome.) and Qingong Monk (Dont like an ability? Replace it with something awesome like Barkskin. Archetype lose an ability you wanted to get? Pick it up next time you'd get one you dont want!). Sohei gets armor, Initiative control, and Weapon Training (and Flurry with trained weapons!).
And the multiclassing opportunities are better than ever too... Master of Many Styles and Maneuver Master are both great for anyone looking to pick up some cool combat tricks.
Monks have never been better, and they totally rock at this point IMO.
...
You've definitely got some good points regarding damage focused monks. How do you feel about the maneuver master or flowing monk archetypes? Neither seems to be specifically damage focused.
Someone on these forums talked about a Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain. I'm trying to build one of those right now and it seems like it'd be a fun (and potentially annoying to the DM) class to play.
Last question.. Boar Style? I never see it mentioned. Is the bleed damage just not worth it?
...You've definitely got some good points regarding damage focused monks. How do you feel about the maneuver master or flowing monk archetypes? Neither seems to be specifically damage focused.
Someone on these forums talked about a Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain. I'm trying to build one of those right now and it seems like it'd be a fun (and potentially annoying to the DM) class to play.
It seems fun, but I really don't feel comfortable giving advice on a non-damage dealing monk like that as I have no special expertise in the area.
I thought the Flowing Monk looked awesome in theory, but the damage is going to really suffer, and I'm not sure the repositioning they allow for is really worth the loss of potential damage.
The same goes for the Maneuver Master. I'm not sure there are any Maneuvers that are especially worth focusing on over damage, except maybe the Grapple shenanigans a Tetori can pull off. I thought the Maneuver Master was more often used as a dip for Fighters or Barbarians, though.
Last question.. Boar Style? I never see it mentioned. Is the bleed damage just not worth it?
I don't know, I don't think it's "not worth it." I bet it's more an issue that so many other Styles are better.
I thought the Flowing Monk looked awesome in theory, but the damage is going to really suffer, and I'm not sure the repositioning they allow for is really worth the loss of potential damage.
Maybe in a few months, I'll let you know.
:)
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Well, what role does a Monk fill? Not a arcane spellcaster, not a healbot, not a real skill-monkey (although they can fill that role in PF, with a little mutliclassing). So, that leaves tank. As a tank they have two problems- ¾ BAB and MAD. They also have lower AC than a armored tank, unless they get scads of magic items to fix this, or have a friendly spellcaster to cast Mage armor. They have three advantages over a armored tank: great saves, more skillpoints, and better mobility. The mobility is offset by the need to do a Full Attack.
So, in some campaigns, where skill points or mobility are important, they can do just fine. But a dedicated FTR, Bbn, Pally or Ranger will do better, and the ranger has as many skillpoints, the Bbn similar mobility and the Pally even better saves.
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Well, what role does a Monk fill? Not a arcane spellcaster, not a healbot, not a real skill-monkey (although they can fill that role in PF, with a little mutliclassing). So, that leaves tank. As a tank they have two problems- ¾ BAB and MAD. They also have lower AC than a armored tank, unless they get scads of magic items to fix this, or have a friendly spellcaster to cast Mage armor. They have three advantages over a armored tank: great saves, more skillpoints, and better mobility. The mobility is offset by the need to do a Full Attack.
So, in some campaigns, where skill points or mobility are important, they can do just fine. But a dedicated FTR, Bbn, Pally or Ranger will do better, and the ranger has as many skillpoints, the Bbn similar mobility and the Pally even better saves.
If you want a Monk Tank, take a look at a Crane/Snake Master of Many Styles. You can effectively negate two attacks a round (three if they mix melee/ranged and you can fit in deflect arrows), and the deeper parts of the styles allow you to convert those misses right back into offense against the people foolish enough to swing at you. All of that is AC independant, but Crane Style allows you to bring that up to pretty ridiculous heights easily as well.
I've also seen offensive monk-frontliners do very well in actual play.
Be a Qinggong, replace High Jump for Barkskin. Helps a lot.
The most success I have had with monks is when my samurai-flavored paladin of Irori dipped Zen Archer to become a better switch-hitter. His wis was crap, but he was using armor, so no sweat. Got even better saves, an unarmed strike so I could use the bow and still threaten in melee when I wanted to focus my attacks on a flyer or a distant target, and at the same time let the party rogue flank with me when stuff came close. Also got lots of flavor-correct skills as trained.
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For an optimised offensively minded monk have a look at the following character from my PBM game: LINK . Bear in mind this uses the older brass knuckles rules.
Heh, his AC isn't bad either and his CMD is through the roof- but i've long since stopped plugging my monk on these threads Dan. He either gets ignored or attacked for not having power attack (he's picking it up at level 7, just in time for -3/+6 damage tradeoff on a flurry).
Hes also been effective in pretty much every encounter in LoF up to his level, frequently more so than the rest of the party.
I also agree with Maximilius, monks can easily have incredible AC and boost it with ki.
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Well, what role does a Monk fill? Not a arcane spellcaster, not a healbot, not a real skill-monkey (although they can fill that role in PF, with a little mutliclassing). So, that leaves tank...
There are other options for a monk than tank. Scout, live capture, spy, assassin, flanker, shutting down spell casters, tying down the opposing assassin, etc...
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Well, what role does a Monk fill? Not a arcane spellcaster, not a healbot, not a real skill-monkey (although they can fill that role in PF, with a little mutliclassing). So, that leaves tank. As a tank they have two problems- ¾ BAB and MAD. They also have lower AC than a armored tank, unless they get scads of magic items to fix this, or have a friendly spellcaster to cast Mage armor. They have three advantages over a armored tank: great saves, more skillpoints, and better mobility. The mobility is offset by the need to do a Full Attack.
So, in some campaigns, where skill points or mobility are important, they can do just fine. But a dedicated FTR, Bbn, Pally or Ranger will do better, and the ranger has as many skillpoints, the Bbn similar mobility and the Pally even better saves.
What role does the fighter fill? Tank? Mobile warrior? Archer?
What about the rogue? Is it a scout? Trap and device specialist? Archaeologist (not the bard archetype)?
What about the cleric? Is he for battle? Healing? Knowledge?
When you pigeon-hole a class you miss out on lots of opportunities. The monk fills the role you build him to fill within the capabilities of the class. If you build him as a front-line fighter, he probably won't be a scout. If you build him as a maneuver master, he probably won't be mastering ki.
This is one of the biggest problems I see on the boards. Play the character you want to play. It doesn't have to be the best at anything. It needs to be playable and fun. I've played and enjoyed high level wizards with 13 Intelligence. I've had a blast playing fighters with tons of knowledge.
What role does the fighter fill? Tank? Mobile warrior? Archer?
What about the rogue? Is it a scout? Trap and device specialist? Archaeologist (not the bard archetype)?
What about the cleric? Is he for battle? Healing? Knowledge?
When you pigeon-hole a class you miss out on lots of opportunities. The monk fills the role you build him to fill within the capabilities of the class. If you build him as a front-line fighter, he probably won't be a scout. If you build him as a maneuver master, he probably won't be mastering ki.
This is one of the biggest problems I see on the boards. Play the character you want to play. It doesn't have to be the best at anything. It needs to be playable and fun. I've played and enjoyed high level wizards with 13 Intelligence. I've had a blast playing fighters with tons of knowledge.
Whats more, Monks can fill some surprising roles these days. Support and healing? Sensei can do a significant bit of that, along with giving the party access to other unique tricks, such as no reagent Restoration.
Or the ability to have every ally within 30ft shoot lasers from their eyes and mouth.
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They so MAD that not even Zon-Kuthon wants them.
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They so MAD that not even Zon-Kuthon wants them.
They are so MAD that Lamasthu is loving them soooo much.
I can tell you look into feats that may assist your dodge feat. And look into styles that make you harder to hit without losing on your attack bonuses. In a game I ran one of my players ran a monk and used this combo and was equally matched with the fighters in the group.Granted it was 3.5 edtion and I'm not familiar with 4th edtion. Hope this helps.
So then at ninth, tenth, and eleventh what feats would you all suggest taking? Assuming that my main goal is defense and my secondary purpose in offense?
Combat Expertise allows you to lower your attack to AC. toughness to give you a little extra on hit points. improved toughness if possible
improved disarm a weaponless foe is a dead oneIm a 3.5 d&d DM so if you plat 4th anything equal too
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I still claim that giving the monk pounce (alternatively 1 level Synthesist dip for that) is the best and quickest fix.
Also question: can you jump through the air on a charge?
3.5 had a feat in some splatbook somewhere called Flying Kick that let you do just that. If you charged and ended with an unarmed strike, you did an additional 1d12 damage. Pathfinder doesn't seem to have any such ability... yet.
So then at ninth, tenth, and eleventh what feats would you all suggest taking? Assuming that my main goal is defense and my secondary purpose in offense?
EDIt: This is Eragar asking this question. I din't realize this comp was still set to my cousins account.
Power attack A.S.A.P., so I suppose 9th.
At 10th, you can ignore pre-reqs on the feat, so you almost certainly want Medusa's Wrath.
At 11th, I don't know, there's a lot of stuff, including Styles that you should check out.
One thing you might want to consider is buying a Wand of Mage Armor for the Arcane caster in your party to use on you. It costs 750gp, but it will give you +4AC for a total of 50 hours. Well worth it, in all likelihood.
You'll also want to keep an eye out for purchasing a Permanent Greater Magic Fang when you get a lot of spare cash, so you can focus on giving your Amulet of Mighty Fists special abilities rather than pure pluses.
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Power Attack is the most important feat for a monk. Seriously. It lets you deal extra damage on all your attacks, and there's no such thing as an off-hand monk unarmed strike, so none of them deal half Strength or half power attack or anything.
Deadly Aim is probably the next most important to use with your Shurikens when you can't make a full attack in melee, but at a certain point, you'll stop throwing Shurikens and this will be vastly less important.
Then you want Maneuvers you can use when you have to move and are thus...
This is about the worst advice I can imagine for a class which specializes in making lots of attacks at lowered attack bonuses -- chisel those bonuses even more by taking "feats than make you miss", and you make yourself useless.
What a monk should be taking are feat-chains which increase the number of attacks, or make the ones he has more destructive without compromising attack bonus. E.g., the Panther Style chain in conjunction with Ki>AC and Mobility and Combat Reflexes and high movement lets you run through an entire enemy formation and dare each of them to take a swing at you.
-- Say you're a 10th level monk with that going, and in the first round you just double-move through the enemy's ranks letting them all take futile swipes against your stoopid high AC while Panther Parrying Stunning Fists. You can literally end combats before they even really begin. -- And if they don't end, Medusa's Wrath totally Fs anything which failed a save last turn.
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As of Ultimate Combat, I'd say that anyone that says monks are bad is willfully ignoring the incredible breadth of powerful options now available to them, and the possible potency of those options.
Sohei is the most powerful melee class in the game. Multiclassed right, you could have Weapon Training in dozens of weapons and be able to Flurry with all of them while wearing Gloves of Dueling. Let him ride your summoned or bonded critter, and the cheese-meter has an orangasm.
The MAD thing can be a pain in the butt, but monks can be pretty awesome even at lower levels. I just started playing my first monk for a friend's Serpent's Skull campaign and I'm having a lot of fun. And my dude's a Weapons Adept which does mean I lose the ability to grant status effects with my punches but on the OTHER HAND I get Perfect Strike as a bonus feet at FIRST LEVEL and I can use it as many times a day as I have monk levels. And I still get flurry of blows. And you keep your WIS bonus for AC even when you're flat footed, so I have the highest flat footed AC in my party.
And there are ways of working around the MAD thing. Make your monk a dwarf for one, because you'll get bonuses on CON and WIS, both of which you'll want, and minuses on CHA which is one of the stats you don't actually need! Make sure you have a decent amount of STR for your damage rolls, CON for everything that gets through your AC, and WIS to keep that AC up. DEX is good too, but monks are often melee so it's not as important. Dump the hell out of CHA and to a lesser extent INT.
Sure, you'll end up an uncharismatic, short, beardy meathead, but that can be lots of run to roleplay as!