+1 to not liking the well-worn cliche of Elves and Dwarves being stuck in their own little kingdoms, but I do have to give kudos to Paizo designers for avoiding the even more egregiously overused cliche of them being "dying races".
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For me, the main issue with Golarion is how tightly packed together the nations are. There isn't enough wilderness, uncharted land, for a DM to make their own stuff. Or for players to found their own kingdom. If you try to maintain verisimilitude.
Kingmaker AP begs to differ.
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Here's the thing about Golarion and other Campign Settings like it: these worlds are not stories. They aren't even proper worlds. They aren't meant to be. They are mise-en-scene. They are the backdrop for the story, the springboard for events, the building blocks of proper stories, of all possible stories. They are the primordial soup out of which arises the stories we create as players and GMs.
Of course all of this material lumped together doesn't really make sense by itself. It needs to be sifted by the people playing the game for the bits they like and want, then synthesized around the table into something that makes sense. It's like cooking: Golarion isn't the meal. It is the contents of the pantry from which the meal is prepared.
Kingmaker AP begs to differ.For me, the main issue with Golarion is how tightly packed together the nations are. There isn't enough wilderness, uncharted land, for a DM to make their own stuff. Or for players to found their own kingdom. If you try to maintain verisimilitude.
"Points of light" vs. "points of darkness" is a matter of taste.
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I would prefer the Elves, Dwarves and Halflings be a bit less ghetto-ized, as well.
My solution, for the dwarves, was to replace the Ulfen entirely with them. The Land of the Linnorm Kings is all-Dwarves, all-the-time (with some random Kellid humans, as well). Dwarven kings (and a Dwarven White Astrid) sitting in their festhalls, under their linnorm skulls, and, when the mood takes them, going a-viking down the coast. Dwarves would also consist of about half of the population of Druma, and make up a significant chunk of the Lastwall crusaders.
Elves at least have a decent reason to be stuck in their forest. They just got back from outer space, and aren't exactly hurting for territory, having an entire other planet to run around on.
Halflings could be more integrated into the larger human nations, particularly Taldor, Cheliax and Andoran, with their respective populations tripled, and them not having a nation of their own could be an actual choice on their part, having, centuries ago, assimilated into human culture, and, in many nations, being treated as equals (obviously not the new Cheliax, and perhaps with a bit of 'nouveau' status in Taldor).
Having, like, 30-40% of Andoran and 20-30%% of Taldor, Cheliax, Nirmathas, Nidal, Molthune, Isger, Varisia, Ustalav, etc. be halfling instead of default human, could be neat. Having Varisians, in particular, having embraced that fully, and a third or so of wandering Varisian nomads and caravaners being halflings, instead of humans, could be cool.
Other than that, I miss some of the WotC art (I'm fine with the football-headed goblins, but MUCH prefer the older versions of bugbears and hobgoblins, and miss the Lockwood dragons), but Paizo didn't really have much choice with the dragons.
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As the title says: What about Golarion bugs you?
Robots and guns - the wide gaps in tech level destroys the feeling that it's a single world.
Elves at least have a decent reason to be stuck in their forest. They just got back from outer space, and aren't exactly hurting for territory, having an entire other planet to run around on.
Emphasis mine.
I wouldn't call 2000 years ago just got back, even for elves but yes you are right, elves have some reason.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You prefer dragon Origins and DA 2 then?
I do.
Dragon Age offers a widespread monotheistic culture hostile to magic (arcane magic, real magic), realistic (political) priests that cannot cast spells, short/decent-looking elves (DA2), purely Mediterranean/European-esque climates, truly unique dwarf culture, the insanity that is the qunari, and (best of all) no deity present.
That's one of the things I've always hated about D&D/fantasy games is the absolute existence of deities. In-game religions help to flesh out a culture, while in-your-face-you'll-see-me-when-you-die deities are just insulting.
One thing I really dislike about Dragon Age is the whole Fade/spirit-vs-demon/lyrium mess. Don't get me wrong, the Fade itself is excellent, but equating werewolves, undead, and so on to 'possessed' critters makes me sick.
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There's very little about Golarion I don't like. It scratches 90% of my "setting should be able to support this kind of story" itch.
That said, my quibbles include:
The inability to separate genre/theme from window-dressing, though this seems to have been scaled back significantly since the early days of the setting. I can do Gothic horror without everyone dressing like it's 18th century Europe. I can have a colonial-America inspired country without requiring their military look like Revolutionary War era troops. And don't get me started about the British expeditionary-style pith helmet & rifle debacle....
Firearms. Advanced firearms in particular. Sorry, this dial, once turned up, is almost impossible to scale back. If I wanted Iron Kingdoms or WFRP's Known World, I'd be playing in those settings.
Yeah, yeah, I know -- different levels of tech and whatnot. But we're talking about a world where teleportation happens. You're not even dealing with airports, ports of call, and customs issues for the movers-and-shakers that would say "we need this tech in my homeland".
I'd like a few more demi-human and humanoid realms. I like the ones we have. I would have been down with a more classic humans vs. monsters style setting ala Hyboria, but I like the classic fantasy races as well.
The pantheon of gods & the number didn't appeal to me originally. (Not bad, just not a standout.) They've been steadily growing on me, however, with the expanded content in the AP gods articles and the "Faiths of" supplements. I'd like some kind of heirarchy, however, at least for the lawful faiths, rather than the every-temple-as-an-island method that seems to be the rule.
I have limited knowledge about Golarion, but aren't halflings enslaved by humans in some parts of the world? I would figure given the concept of halflings, they would be the best ones at slipping away. I could be wrong though. I spend most of my time in homebrew settings, though published worlds are fun in their own right.
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Ever check out the Talislanta world books? The game itself was horrible, but the each nation/culture/race was original. I would like to see more of that instead of Golarian's derivative fantasy.
What's wrong with the d20 system?
Seriously. When 3.0 came out, I couldn't believe how much they'd borrowed from the Talislanta system.
Anyone who hasn't looked at Talislanta, the creator has released all of the old material as free PDFs.
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You prefer dragon Origins and DA 2 then?I do.
** spoiler omitted **
More DA Chatter
I decided that Lyrium is 'magic crack' though :-)
What I like about Thedas is that you don't have a 'realms shaking event' in the past. Even Andraste's victor/sacrifice didn't blow up the world, it just knocked down the biggest empire. I also like the elves being so frakked up, but that's just me. :)
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I've never been walking down the street and encountered one of these.You realize that you have just described Earth, right?
-Kle.
Then you're not walking down the right streets ;)
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What bugs me about Golarion is the same thing that bugs me about 99% of Fantasy settings out there.
I don't get the whole planet to play on. I just get one continent with way too many cultures packed in like sardines.
Actually, you get 1 1/3 continents. The Inner Sea Region is Avistan plus the upper third (or so) of Garund.
It means I either have to place artificial limits on how far my players can explore or I have to come up with setting info myself which will likely be rendered invalid should paizo ever expand their world.
On the other hand, if you go, cut out the Inner Sea Region and make it its own world, you have a much smaller world, without any white spaces.
White spaces are actually fun. Terror Incognita.
It shouldn't be that much of a problem unless the players want to go all over. The ISR holds plenty of adventure opportunity already.
And who says that future material will invalidate your stuff? If you you make something up, and they later release information about the other areas, you just ignore (or incorporate) the new books.
This is another of these things that is all over Pathfinder, and it's totally intentional: They won't explain everything, they won't reveal everything, they won't detail everything. Who's the mayor of that little coastal village a dozen miles east of Westcrown? Who is Doctor D? How did Aroden die?
Some gaps will be filled later, but realise that unless you want a really small world - or a really big book - it's impossible to get a whole world, fully detailed.
The white spaces between what is detailed are for GM to do their own stuff in.
Say a DM had already sent players to... the Asian area whose name is escaping me just now.
Casmaron or Tian Xia - depends on what you mean by "Asia".
With the launch of the current adventure path that's all likely to be overwritten.
Unlikely. We'll get an overview, and some parts (especially one kingdom) will get more information, but it's unlikely that after Jade Regent, Tian Xia will be as detailed as Avistan or even Garund. And Casmaron will probably not even be touched.
So yea I want a full planet. It can be lightly detailed, infact I recognize that in order to cover everywhere it would have to be lightly detailed but at the very least I want that full skeletal structure to build on.
So you get your skeleton, and you put fur on it. And then along comes "Leathery Hide of Skeleton" and invalidates what you have done.
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I've never been walking down the street and encountered one of these.You realize that you have just described Earth, right?
-Kle.
That's your street's fault.
not eugh elven ruins
Not enough capitalisation and letters :P
I hate the death of Aroden.
Specifically, I hate it because he was, essentially, the God of Humanity, and in pretty much every setting, humnas never have an offical patron god. Then comes along a setting that has one, and he dies. It makes me mad everytime I think about it.
If any other god had bit it, I would be fine.
The thing is that humans basically get everything. They don't need an "official patron deity" because everything that isn't specifically defined as elven or dwarven or whatever is automatically human.
And note that among the other races, only dwarves have an official god, and that's only because he's the god of all dwarven stereotypes. Other deities (like Calistria) might originally be a "racial" deity, but they're not worshipped by just that race. The racial segregation didn't reach the deific levels.
Elves do have racial deities. Findeladlara, Ketephys and Yuelral. The first two only respond to elven prayers and Yuelral responds to prayers of elves and half-elves.
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This is another of these things that is all over Pathfinder, and it's totally intentional: They won't explain everything, they won't reveal everything, they won't detail everything. Who's the mayor of that little coastal village a dozen miles east of Westcrown? Who is Doctor D? How did Aroden die?
Actually, this slightly irks me.
I would rather they say, flat out, "We won't fill in the blanks. That's for you and your campaign." How and why did Aroden die? Where did humans come from? There is no answer; make it up.
But we don't get that. Instead, we get, "We won't tell you... yet." How and why did Aroden die? We know the truth. But we won't let you know until we're ready. That's metaplot seeping in on the edges of Golarion, and it's quite possible that it will harm the world in ways that will force campaigns to abandon the world as written.
Also, for me, I don't understand Nidal at all. I want to like it, but it just seems... unfinished, not fully thought through, something. Then again, I suppose a lot of lands have gaps that need filling by enterprising GMs, and that's a good thing, in general. I'll just steer clear of the west coast, then. I have no interest in Varisia at all, anyway.
When 3.0 came out, I couldn't believe how much they'd borrowed from the Talislanta system.
That's not really surprising, given that the first RPG book WotC published was Talislanta, way before they acquired TSR.
Also, Why isn't the Hermean gold dragon considered tarnished? I look at him and Lawful Neutral seems written on his shiny carapace.
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But we don't get that. Instead, we get, "We won't tell you... yet." How and why did Aroden die? We know the truth. But we won't let you know until we're ready. That's metaplot seeping in on the edges of Golarion, and it's quite possible that it will harm the world in ways that will force campaigns to abandon the world as written.
Why does everyone care so much about how Aroden died? Unless you really want to run a "Revenge of the Humans" campaign where you track down his murderer and bring them to justice. I mean, I can't see any answer that would have any impact on 99.999999% of all games. Who cares? He's dead. Get over it. We've got adventuring to do.
The Gold Dragon ruler of Hermea has in fact been intimated by James Jacobs to not actually be Lawful Good, if he was at one point.
Goblins being mentally defective retarded psychopaths is fine with me. Them not having an INT or WIS penalty isn`t.
It shouldn't be that much of a problem unless the players want to go all over. The ISR holds plenty of adventure opportunity already.
It's mostly only a problem at high levels and you have players that love to explore. I don't want to have to make a whole continent. That's what I buy settings for. Also I'd love to do something spelljammery with golarion but as soon as there's any sort of decent flying ships in my players hands then I want a full world map even more.
Some gaps will be filled later, but realise that unless you want a really small world - or a really big book - it's impossible to get a whole world, fully detailed.
Oh I get that and I'd actualy hate it if every little detail of every little country and every little town down to the name of the inn keeper's dog got filled in for me but I definately want an idea of what's over the sea, what kind of people live there and a map of the area.
This book here is just about perfect
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0961077069/waynesworldof-20
It details one whole planet. Each continent gets a few pages and each country gets a paragraph or two and it weighs in at about 126 pages. Now if they'd gone on to do more detailed stuff about a specific area in that book that would've be great but if they don't (and they didn't) then I've already got enough to work with for any area of the planet I want to use.
So you get your skeleton, and you put fur on it. And then along comes "Leathery Hide of Skeleton" and invalidates what you have done.
Quite possibly but at least It won't be invalidating whole continent maps.
Don't get me wrong I get why game designers often choose to focus more tightly on a smaller area rather than broadly on the whole planet it's just rarely what I'm looking for.
Torger
Seriously. When 3.0 came out, I couldn't believe how much they'd borrowed from the Talislanta system.
Haha, I'm talking about the Pre-d20 Talislanta, or Third Edition as it is known. It was one of WotC's first RPG books published (code is WOC2002). I remember buying it at the gaming store in the Woodbridge Mall and instantly falling in love with the setting.
The game itself though? *shudder*.
Seriously. When 3.0 came out, I couldn't believe how much they'd borrowed from the Talislanta system.
Haha, I'm talking about the Pre-d20 Talislanta, or Third Edition as it is known. It was one of WotC's first RPG books published (code is WOC2002). I remember buying it at the gaming store in the Woodbridge Mall and instantly falling in love with the setting.
The game itself though? *shudder*.
I went from 2nd edition to 4th edition, but a quick glance at the 3rd edition Talislanta PDF doesn't look that different.
The core of the system is d20 + skill. Skill starting at stat and improved from there. How is that terrible when 3.0/3.5/PF/4.0 all still use that basic mechanic?
Edit: Also, stats in Talislanta have always been the equivalent of the stat modifiers in d20. Average humans have 0 for all stats. If you throw away the stat in d20 and just use the modifiers (which is the only important thing anyway) d20 looks a lot like Talislanta always did.
I went from 2nd edition to 4th edition, but a quick glance at the 3rd edition Talislanta PDF doesn't look that different.The core of the system is d20 + skill. Skill starting at stat and improved from there. How is that terrible when 3.0/3.5/PF/4.0 all still use that basic mechanic?
Edit: Also, stats in Talislanta have always been the equivalent of the stat modifiers in d20. Average humans have 0 for all stats. If you throw away the stat in d20 and just use the modifiers (which is the only important thing anyway) d20 looks a lot like Talislanta always did.
Agreed, the basic mechanics are similar. Roll a d20, add a modifier. But Talislanta was built around the "Action Table", which made the game tedious because the GM had to determine what a "mishap" or a "failure" was based on the context of the attempted action. I think the system is simple and effective in theory, but when I actually ran a game (granted I was also 15 at the time), it ended up degenerating into so many arguments I would just end up winging most encounters.
In hindsight, it might actually be fun to run a 3rd Edition Talislanta game and return to simpler times...
Actually, this slightly irks me.
I would rather they say, flat out, "We won't fill in the blanks. That's for you and your campaign." How and why did Aroden die? Where did humans come from? There is no answer; make it up.
But we don't get that. Instead, we get, "We won't tell you... yet." How and why did Aroden die? We know the truth. But we won't let you know until we're ready. That's metaplot seeping in on the edges of Golarion, and it's quite possible that it will harm the world in ways that will force campaigns to abandon the world as written.
Also, for me, I don't understand Nidal at all. I want to like it, but it just seems... unfinished, not fully thought through, something. Then again, I suppose a lot of lands have gaps that need filling by enterprising GMs, and that's a good thing, in general. I'll just steer clear of the west coast, then. I have no interest in Varisia at all, anyway.
Actually, the Paizo team (J Jacobs in particular) HAS stated that certain things won't be revealed -- Aroden's death being first and foremost among them.
As for nations like Nidal, certain areas are seeing expanded treatment as modules and APs are set in those regions. Paizo had a business to run and a publishing schedule to keep while Golarion was/is being developed. I've yet to see a published setting that drops a setting lexicon on your desk at the outset, covering every nation/race/culture in detail. There are certainly regions I'd have preferred get some love earlier than some that did. However, even in those instances, the stuff they developed made those areas interesting and areas that I'd consider centering a campaign around.
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As for things that are no big deal that I change in my own game:
. That's what it's called.
Not some lame ass name that sounds like a children's Tylenol.
Speaking of names of places that are real-life medicines, Nidal just doesn't exist in my Golarion. Not even to Pangolais is a hidden city somewhere in that forest run by the Umbral Court -- and it's got spies in Nisroch -- but all that land around the Uskwood belongs to Cheliax.
So does Isger.
And Korvosa.
And Sargava.
All part of Cheliax.
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Taldor extends further east -- the huge mountain range just begins a bit further east.
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Galt is a single, large city.
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Molthune has already conquered, Nazi-Blitzkrieg style, Numeria and Druma. They are at war with both the Orcs of Belkzen and especially the Elves of Kyonin. One can find "Concentration Camps" in Molthune with elves, orcs and even other human ethnicities that aren't specifically Mothun.
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Sarkoris still exists as a city.
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Lastwall is a town in Ustalov; Molthune, especially with the threat of northern Orcs, will Not risk encroaching on Ustalov. (Even Hitler is afraid of Ustalov!)
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Geb never existed (apologies to Erik); it's all Nex underneath Katapesh.
Agreed, the basic mechanics are similar. Roll a d20, add a modifier. But Talislanta was built around the "Action Table", which made the game tedious because the GM had to determine what a "mishap" or a "failure" was based on the context of the attempted action. I think the system is simple and effective in theory, but when I actually ran a game (granted I was also 15 at the time), it ended up degenerating into so many arguments I would just end up winging most encounters.
In hindsight, it might actually be fun to run a 3rd Edition Talislanta game and return to simpler times...
I guess I never had that issue. It's like the climb skill in Pathfinder: A mishap means you fall, a failure means you make no progress, partial success is half climb speed, full success is full climb speed, critical success is double climb speed.
But I can see how the openness could lead to arguments for some groups.
If you do want to try it again, I highly recommend the 4th edition book. It has everything you need in one place for years of gaming. Of course, I don't know how hard it is to get a physical copy these days. (Ok, I see a good condition copy for $45 on ebay. That's a good price, it's a big book.)
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Actually, this slightly irks me.
I would rather they say, flat out, "We won't fill in the blanks. That's for you and your campaign." How and why did Aroden die? Where did humans come from? There is no answer; make it up.
But we don't get that. Instead, we get, "We won't tell you... yet." How and why did Aroden die? We know the truth. But we won't let you know until we're ready. That's metaplot seeping in on the edges of Golarion, and it's quite possible that it will harm the world in ways that will force campaigns to abandon the world as written.
Also, for me, I don't understand Nidal at all. I want to like it, but it just seems... unfinished, not fully thought through, something. Then again, I suppose a lot of lands have gaps that need filling by enterprising GMs, and that's a good thing, in general. I'll just steer clear of the west coast, then. I have no interest in Varisia at all, anyway.
Honestly, if a company just up and closed the doors on a campaign setting right after publishing the first book, I would be mystified. And I probably wouldn't play it. I love getting new books for the campaign setting, they're the best thing Paizo makes in my opinion.
I look forward to finding out where humans came from. I look forward to a future module or AP revealing just a little more about how Nidal works, over the years. I might even want to find out what happened to Aroden... one day, not yet. I'm not worried about being "over-written" because if that happens I'll either adapt what they wrote or ignore it.
The setting will get more detailed over time. Relax, enjoy it, and don't worry about maintaining "canon". If you want something that will never have further developments, I recommend the Forgotten Realms 3e Campaign setting. That's an awesome book.
More DA Chatter** spoiler omitted **You prefer dragon Origins and DA 2 then?I do.
** spoiler omitted **
There is some strong hints of the Maker being real though, as Andraste's ashes did have the healing effect. The spirits in the chamber also seem to point to her existance being real (I actually like the Andraste thing, kind of see her as Joan-Of-Arc, and might tweak some of Aroden's first herald with her background.)
Having Ogren in your party with Leliana during the Sacred Ashes quest almost confirms (link) that the Maker's a human invention. Now to connect my theories...
I decided that Lyrium is 'magic crack' though :-)
Lyrium is used by enchanters to imbue inanimate objects with magic, therefore the large amount of lyrium in the Sacred Ashes chamber could have easily given the Guardian his longevity and powers and created ghostly images of figures close to Andraste. No doubt the disciples were all about chanting the Chant all over the complex and, over time, those chants and thoughts were given life by the lyrium.
That's your street's fault.I've never been walking down the street and encountered one of these.You realize that you have just described Earth, right?
-Kle.
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Pangolais is a hidden city somewhere in that forest run by the Umbral Court
Pangolais makes me think of an underground warren inhabited by anthropomorphic scaly anteaters.
Still not as funny as the images I get from the gods Norgoober or Sarenwrap.
No Displacer beasts, but they have Blink Dogs.
I really hate WotC right now.
Ankhegs, Bebiliths, Phase Spiders... stuff like that.Forgot the Phase Spiders. Ridiculous.
I think the Ankheg just got a really crappy illustration though in the MM. The one bursting from the ground at the iconic monk in one of the AP or other books looks much better.
That was actually a joke. Obviously a bad one, because a joke is never funny if you explain it.
All of the above look like BUGS.
Isn't that what WotC did with 4E FR, Eberron and Darksun? Campaign setting and then one module? (I admit that I have not closely followed 4E in a long time, so I may be wrong).
Honestly, if a company just up and closed the doors on a campaign setting right after publishing the first book, I would be mystified. And I probably wouldn't play it.
A large proportion (I'd even say most now) of WoTC content is provided online through their subscription service. This includes the ongoing support for their various campaign settings - most of them get at least one article/adventure a month.
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I haven't had a chance to read through most of this thread, so I might come back and add anything that comes to me later, but the first thing that comes to mind: Arcadia, going by the little we know about it, seems like a wasted opportunity for weirdness.
My reaction to its entry in ISWG went something like, "Oh cool, the New World! If there's virtually no contact with this mysterious continent, that means there's endless possibilities! There could be a massive, technologically advanced kobold civilization, or warmongering barbarian elves, or flying cities, or... Native American tribes and colonist vikings. Exactly like in historical America. Hm."
I know that Golarion is heavily based off of Earth, and that can be pretty cool sometimes, but Avistan has a load of stuff that's nothing like European history and/or folklore. Arcadia seems a little restrained by reality. Tian Xia is kind of similar, especially with the statement of "ninja and samurai are only from Fantasy Japan."
EDIT: Oh yeah, and there's a slight problem with the hinted-at deities of Tian Xia and Fantasy India (can't remember the name). It implies that most if not all of the default gods are regional deities, and yet they're usually treated as if they're the only gods. I mean, where were Iori and his three thousand siblings when Rovagug was trying to eat the planet? Did Aroden's death matter to the people on the other side of the world who never knew he was alive?
Ankhegs, Bebiliths, Phase Spiders... stuff like that.Forgot the Phase Spiders. Ridiculous.
I think the Ankheg just got a really crappy illustration though in the MM. The one bursting from the ground at the iconic monk in one of the AP or other books looks much better.
That was actually a joke. Obviously a bad one, because a joke is never funny if you explain it.
All of the above look like BUGS.
Maybe so, but have you SEEN the ankheg pic from the Bestiary?
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Strangely, I like some of the complaints levelled here - the relatively marginal "elves and dwarves", the fact that the age of lost omens began with Aroden's death, the shorthand cultures, the "tried and true" racial stereotypes with just some bits of added flavor.
After all, who wants to play in a world populated with elves who mature on human scales, live for thousand years, but ritualistically eat two out of every three children born to them, accounting for their low numbers?
Anyway, here's my list of things Golarion could go without:
- Lovecraft getting his dirty talons progressively deeper into the setting
- The Worldwound. "Oh, so you're all doomed and nothing can be done about it. Carry on about your Westcrown revolution, by the way"
- Wall of the faithless-style afterlife for non-diety worshippers. It doesn't matter if you're a moral atheist, animist or follow some philosophy - either worship a certified diety, or off to groetus you go. Unless you're following a demon lord or archdevil, aparrently - they are extra special
- Extra-special demon lords.
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EDIT: Oh yeah, and there's a slight problem with the hinted-at deities of Tian Xia and Fantasy India (can't remember the name). It implies that most if not all of the default gods are regional deities, and yet they're usually treated as if they're the only gods. I mean, where were Iori and his three thousand siblings when Rovagug was trying to eat the planet? Did Aroden's death matter to the people on the other side of the world who never knew he was alive?
Ooh, 'too many gods' syndrome. That's a pet peeve that I forgot about, and only promises to be exacerbated as the Tien lands (and, eventually, Vudra, Arcadia, Greater Kel/Casmaron and / or the lower Mwangi continent, not to mention other planets...) are developed.
I loved the original Scarred Lands setting, which was suggested to have nine active gods (well, eight gods and a titan, one for each alignment) and a few demigods like Drendari and Nemorga. Then new demigods started pouring out, including my least favorite thing, race-specific demigods, and that, IMO, diluted the entire theme. (To be totally contrary, I loved Roger Moore's demihuman deities, but haven't really cared for the majority that have been invented since...)
More than just nine gods is fine, perhaps a pantheon of twelve or so, but I really don't care for seperate pantheons of gods for different countries, different cultures or different races. I like the old Dragonlance notion (also used in Kalamar/Tellene), that different races might have different names and interpretations of the same core group of gods, but not that there's an elven god of magic and a human god of magic and a gnomish god of magic, cluttering up the outer planes. There's just a god of magic, and a goddess of love, and a god of artifice, and dwarves, humans, orcs, catgirls, etc. all 'make them in their own image.'
I'm also not entirely thrilled with the idea of gods having explicit alignments (or feeling compelled to share such information about what they do out there in the planes in the privacy of their own domains with the hoi-polloi), and kinda liked the more distant and 'hands-off' policies of the Eberron gods, who weren't just candy-dispensers for mortal worshippers, coming at their beck and call and answering all of their questions, but more unknowable and mysterious.
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Wall of the faithless-style afterlife for non-diety worshippers. It doesn't matter if you're a moral atheist, animist or follow some philosophy - either worship a certified diety, or off to groetus you go. Unless you're following a demon lord or archdevil, aparrently - they are extra special
If that's something you don't like, it's a good thing that it's not part of the setting. :)
If you don't worship a god, nothing bad happens to you. You just don't get to dwell in their domain by default, you just end up on one of the planes of the Outer Sphere that Pharasma judges you best attuned to. You can think the gods are poop and that's still the case that there's no sort of punishment like the FR 'Wall of the Faithless'.
It's only if you believe (in a world with manifest gods and evidence of the afterlife) that you have no soul, that there are no gods, and there is no afterlife. It's that willing denial that makes you Groetus chow. Very very very different from someone who denies the divinity of the gods but acknowledges them as just powerful extraplanar beings, or any of a dozen other sorts who choose to not worship a deity.
Todd, that's quite an intresting post. In what book can I read more about what you said?
Todd, that's quite an intresting post. In what book can I read more about what you said? I read The Great Beyond but never found any mention of Groetus eating the non-believers.
But yeah, I see what Terra wanted to say... Doesn't matter what kind of atheist you are, eternal imprisonment is your destination.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ooh, 'too many gods' syndrome. That's a pet peeve that I forgot about, and only promises to be exacerbated as the Tien lands (and, eventually, Vudra, Arcadia, Greater Kel/Casmaron and / or the lower Mwangi continent, not to mention other planets...) are developed.
I loved the original Scarred Lands setting, which was suggested to have nine active gods (well, eight gods and a titan, one for each alignment) and a few demigods like Drendari and Nemorga. Then new demigods started pouring out, including my least favorite thing, race-specific demigods, and that, IMO, diluted the entire theme. (To be totally contrary, I loved Roger Moore's demihuman deities, but haven't really cared for the majority that have been invented since...)
More than just nine gods is fine, perhaps a pantheon of twelve or so, but I really don't care for seperate pantheons of gods for different countries, different cultures or different races. I like the old Dragonlance notion (also used in Kalamar/Tellene), that different races might have different names and interpretations of the same core group of gods, but not that there's an elven god of magic and a human god of magic and a gnomish god of magic, cluttering up the outer planes. There's just a god of magic, and a goddess of love, and a god of artifice, and dwarves, humans, orcs, catgirls, etc. all 'make them in their own image.'
I'm also not entirely thrilled with the idea of gods having explicit alignments (or feeling compelled to share such information about what they do out there in the planes in the privacy of their own domains with the hoi-polloi), and kinda liked the more distant and 'hands-off' policies of the Eberron gods, who weren't just candy-dispensers for mortal worshippers, coming at their beck and call and answering all of their questions, but more unknowable and mysterious.
Scarred Lands OT:
I'll be interested to see how much of the 'new gods' are 'old gods' with the serial numbers filed off. Heck I'd enjoy it if some of the Tian gods are 'wrong' in the people's history, or that we find out things like they believe that Iori is an ascended emperor, or other cased of the Western deities being 'wrong'
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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** spoiler omitted **More DA Chatter** spoiler omitted **You prefer dragon Origins and DA 2 then?I do.
** spoiler omitted **
more DA chatter
Did the Teventer worship the Maker? I know the alleged origins of the darkspawn link them to the corruption of their city.
Back on Golarion, we know there are 'old' deities no longer worshipped. (Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon's father comes to mind) and some that are crippled but worshipped. Since a deity's power does not seem connected to number of worshippers, it makes me wonder what happened to those gods. (And who did Aroden worship prior to ascention?)
When 3.0 came out, I couldn't believe how much they'd borrowed from the Talislanta system.That's not really surprising, given that the first RPG book WotC published was Talislanta, way before they acquired TSR.
Even less surprising when you consider that Jonathan Tweet was the designer/author of Talislanta 3rd Edition under WotC's license of the property, and went on to be one of the designers of D&D 3E...
Elves do have racial deities.
So do many regions and human ethnicities. They're only "racial" deities because they didn't make it to the "deities' major league".
Just like Gyronna is not worshipped outside of the river kingdoms and Besmara probably has close to zero non-pirate worshippers.
These "specialised" deities aren't limited because they're snobby or elitist - they just don't appeal to many people outside their limited areas of influence. There might be a couple of deities who are racist or nationalist, but it's the exception more than the rule.
Calistria is *the* elven goddess (*the* rather than *an* because she embodies the elven way of life almost perfectly), but she made it big and people of all races from all over pray to her. Even Torag, god of annoying dwarf stereotypes, allows non-dwarf worshippers. Desna doesn't force you to abandon your home and become a nomad to accept you.
There are "racial deities", but they're not necessarily the type we're being used to. That's what I meant. Might have made it a big clearer.