What about Golarion bugs you?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

I agree. With the exception of maybe one or two, I honestly wish that the entiore Dragon Empires pantheon was just a different look at the existing deities. That basically is my entire issue with the Dragon Empires, though.

What might have actually been really cool, was if the normal "minor deities" where a big deal in the Dragon Empires, while the newer "ascended" ones where not known at all, (minus Iomedae, which is a perfct example of what needs to be in the Dragon Empires, too).

Grand Lodge

The never ending hurricane bothers me.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Beckett wrote:
Maybe, but by allowing broader focus, those "gimmicky" things would still be there, not altered at all, it just wouldn't be the only train in town, so to speak. Actually, those gimmicks would still likely be the most common examples of that faith, as that's what we OOC know as the norm. It would actually help to reenforce that concept, but not blanket it as the only one.

I liked the concepts in Hamanauptra and the Scarred Lands*

In Hamanauptra, the gods were always changing. Rather how people received them. If someone was to worship a god of Eclipses, for example, likely they'd worship Rashu, as a composite of Ra and Khonshu**. Ra and Kohnshu would be unchanged cosmically, but would both draw on those worshippers.

In the (initial) scarred lands, it was strongly hinted that there were the 9 victors and few (if any) other deities. Because of the deaths of the other deities, if someone still prayed to them, the nine victors would 'pity grant' spells up to 2nd level, out of respect to their fallen bretheren.

*

Spoiler:
Yeah, later we got all sorts of gods, but the concept of the 'big nine' intrigued me.

**
Spoiler:
Yeah, I know, I got Marvel in your Egypt. I actually like some incarnations of Moon Knight and think he can be more than 'batman knock off'

Shadow Lodge

Nothing at all wrong with that.


Disclaimer: Rather long rant below.

I have kind of a love/hate relationship with the whole "kitchen sink" approach to the setting. While I understand the need for Golarion to make available as many "micro-settings" as possible to appeal to as many people as possible, it hurts the setting in terms of focus. Its style, so to speak, is all over the place.

Don't get me wrong: I love all the big and little original ideas and clever adaptions in Golarion.

But the unoriginal parts are especially jarring. I especially dislike the transposition of real world cultures. I think Vikings, ancient Egyptians, medieval Arabs, Jacobins, Indians (both kind - check the artwork for the Arcadians), and the east and south east asian cultures and their myths should have been presented with more than just a little twist each. Your ancient desert empire does not need to incorporate hieroglyphs, pyramids and pharaohs to allude to ancient Egypt. Likewise, I don't need guillotines and funny hats to recognise the corrupted french revolution. When I first read through the Gazetteer, my eyes wouldn't stop rolling.

I don't understand this, really. It worked fine with several other Golarion cultures. Taldor alludes - obviously enough - to ancient Greece and Byzantium, for example. But when reading about it, I never felt like being ridden down by a constantinoplian cataphract. Also, non-Osirion Garund seems to be a mix between Africa south of the Sahel and ancient Southern America. The allusions are there and sometimes very obvious. But it never comes across as a barely disguised carbon copy.

Maybe it would not be so bad if there were explanations for the existance of these cultures (like with the Egyptians and Babylonians in the Forgotten Realms). I miss a certain kind of sense for the history of Golarion. The cultures (and that includes many of the more original ones, too) are just there. It's said that they developed, but it is rarely explained why they developed in that exact way. I hope there will be a book down the line that does that, a bit like the Grand History Of The Realms.

Also, I know that I can modify all that. But it's a lot of work, and I'm not as patient as I used to be.


Gorbacz wrote:
MerrikCale wrote:
i always thought there should be more Gods. Each region with thier own mythology.
Dragon Empires has their own pantheon (with some overlap to Inner Sea). I suppose other continents will follow that model.

I believe the Ulfens should have a different set of deities than kellids or taldans or whatever


Not knowing how many hit points it has :(

Scarab Sages

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Thing that bugs me the most about Golarion is the lack of "traditional" fantasy tropes, like countries that are actually "kingdoms". We've got tons of city-states, a few empires, fledgling democracies, theocracies of dark gods, pharoahs, etc., but I can't think of (off hand) a country that would fit the old-fashioned "King and Queen" run Kingdom. With princesses to be saved, etc. Yes, I know, the folks in change, and likely most people, are tired of these old tropes, but I consider them to be classics, and should, at least, have some representation.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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Arazyr wrote:
Thing that bugs me the most about Golarion is the lack of "traditional" fantasy tropes, like countries that are actually "kingdoms". We've got tons of city-states, a few empires, fledgling democracies, theocracies of dark gods, pharoahs, etc., but I can't think of (off hand) a country that would fit the old-fashioned "King and Queen" run Kingdom. With princesses to be saved, etc. Yes, I know, the folks in change, and likely most people, are tired of these old tropes, but I consider them to be classics, and should, at least, have some representation.

Just off the top of my head:


  • Lastwall is a crusader state with a very traditional vibe
  • Brevoy, despite all the russian undertones is a pretty traditional aristocratic society with all the trappings
  • Taldor is a bit more imperial than kingdom, but should fit the bill mostly


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TerraNova wrote:
  • Taldor is a bit more imperial than kingdom, but should fit the bill mostly
  • As I noted a while back, my experience playing PFS scenarios is that Taldor is 95% fops and operas and 5% knights and dragons.

    (Margin of error is within 5%, 19 times out of 20.)

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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    hogarth wrote:
    TerraNova wrote:
  • Taldor is a bit more imperial than kingdom, but should fit the bill mostly
  • As I noted a while back, my experience playing PFS scenarios is that Taldor is 95% fops and operas and 5% knights and dragons.

    (Margin of error is within 5%, 19 times out of 20.)

    Ah, seem my Taldor is a bit different then.

    Spoiler:
    The nobles have some semi-independancy, as long as they're paying their taxes, providing levies, etc. So you can get the 'serfs in their huts, nobles in their castles' trope. This allows your 'kingdom' mentality, with it being baron such and such instead.

    Even those nobles fighting to improve their lands are fighting an uphill battle. In addition to being looked down on for 'thinking like Andorans' they're also openly scorned for not being opulent enough. Think Kaylee interacting with the girls in 'Shindig'. Nobles who are trying to improve their lands aren't wearing this year's fashions, don't have the latest geegaw popular in court, etc. Backstabbing also wears them down. If noble A bucks tradition and starts a school, nobles B, C, and D will work to make sure it fails, the better to mock their unconventional peer. "You thought to teach them to read? My dear friend, first you'd have to teach the beardless to not pee in the corner."

    As to why they don't freak out about Andoran, Galt, etc. It's that Taldoran apathy. "Ah yes. Well our once and future colonies are certainly deluding themselves, but give them a few more years, and they'll be begging for Taldan stability."

    That's why the possible succession crisis is a turning point for Taldor. Will the princess be able to unite the nation under her reign and start the return of Talfor to their imperial glory? Or will she shatter the lethargic state in a civil war?

    Silver Crusade

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    1. Guns in my fantasy.

    2. The smorgasboard effect that has been commented on. Too many wildly different countries abutting one another in a very small space, with not much sense of an overarching geopolitical situation or much interaction between the nations.

    3. The setting feels very modern in terms of society, tech, and customs. I always imagined Greyhawk as a very Medieval setting, Forgotten Realms as somewhat closer to the Rennaisance, and the inner sea feels closer to the Enlightenment. I like my fantasy more Medieval, or even better, ante-historical.

    It's great though, for a setting in which you've got anything you want, all in one place, if you can separate the OCD part of yourself that wants to organize and explain everything.

    Shadow Lodge

    The fact that the planar structure, as described, doesn't actually involve different planes of existence. It's just places in the same plane of existence that are really far away.

    Dark Archive

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    10,000 years of history. That's rather a lot. I remember disliking that in Eberron as well (much more so, there, actually).

    Cutting timeline ages by a factor of ten (or at least five!) would neatly streamline that, I think.

    Shadow Lodge

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    I kind of liked in Eberron, that it is partially implied that in that long history, multiple past cultures and civilizations have come and gone, almost like an apocalypse of sorts, but all in all, mortals survived and started over.

    Sometimes I almost get that feeling with Golarion. With the various ruins and particularly things like the cipher gate, and the wardstones of Mendev. It has so much potentual, but I honestly think that officially it will be much more humanistic, so I avoid learning too much cannon on the subjects.


    Thread's getting pretty long now and I've seen a lot of complaint about lack of Godly interactions when compared to Faerun. I skipped ahead so I could comment on this.

    What a lot of people seem to forget about Faerun, is Faerun has dozens of novels telling stories about the setting. Golarion has a couple out now, but nothing compared to the stories that exist for Faerun, or that are still being written about them (if I recall, R. A. Salvatore has a contract for some 13 more Drizzt books). Golarion is still really young, it hasn't had the 20 years of active play and campaigns and developing characters the other settings have had.

    One day soon, I hope to see a book of important figures for Golarion. Like NPCs that (should have) survived and were used in an adventure path. Or people that were mentioned in books things like Guide to Korvosa. I'd love to see a character breakdown of Blackjack, Shalelu Andosana (who strikes me as Golarion's Drizzt), Aram Zey, Echean Ansolandi, etc. all located in one book. Kind of like the brief introduction on the who's-who of casters in Inner Sea Magic, but instead of a picture and sentence, maybe a mage or two like they did for Gods and Magic.

    As for things I dislike, there are really only 3 things, 2 of which tie together. First, I'm not a reader of Lovecraft, never been much of a horror guy, so this seeming obsession with pulling from Lovecraft at every turn kind of grates on my nerves. I try to town it down when I can, but there is so much Lovecraft influence in Golarion, it gets kind of old.

    The other two are tied together. The focus of humans in Golarion has been well documented in this thread, but what really gets to me is a real lack of knowledge of the other races. I know there are the Elves of Golarion and such books, but there's no Guide to Kyonin, or Guide to Sky Citadels, or products going into detail for the other races and kingdoms of Golarion.

    It seems to me, the only time a country gets a 'Guide to' book, is if it is the focus of an adventure path. There is a Guide to Ketapesh, Korvosa, River Kingdoms, Absolam, and Darkmoon Vale off the top of my head. Out of those 5, 3 are the center of Adventure Paths, one is the City at the Center of the World, and I know nothing of Darkmoon Vale as I have never read it.

    tl:dr
    1: Lovecrafe Love-fest
    2: Human focus
    3: Lack of racial knowledge.


    Detect Magic wrote:
    Klebert L. Hall wrote:

    You realize that you have just described Earth, right?

    -Kle.
    I've never been walking down the street and encountered one of these.

    You mean a giant spider/scorpion mecha or a tatooed barbarian dualwielding a sword and an axe?

    Yeah I think the setting didn't need to go all the way to space age technology. I like the variation, that you can have the same group of characters go through ancient japan, medieval europe, dinosaur land and magic steampunk world but the contrast is getting a little too crass with space ships and giant robots shooting lasers out of their faces involved.


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    Detect Magic wrote:
    Klebert L. Hall wrote:

    You realize that you have just described Earth, right?

    -Kle.
    I've never been walking down the street and encountered one of these.

    Oh look, a scorpion golem!

    On a side note, high technology has existed next to low tech in reality. "Cargo cults" were rampant during World War II when Japanese and Allied forces used islands inhabited by low-technology tribal natives, who saw them as god-like beings who would give them food and supplies ("cargo"), and erected effigies of airplanes, dances, and ceremonies in tribute to them. When the war ended and the bases and activity abandoned, religious movements went into trying to appease the "gods" so that they would find them in favor and return.

    The thing about a fantasy setting is the fact high technology means really little when that crazy fool in a loin cloth and some fox skins can call lighting out of the sky to char your bacon. A bazooka is really awesome, but a simple enchanted arrow can unleash a 20 ft. wide fireball on impact, and a quiver could turn a team of longbowmen into forward artillery.

    Heck, slings are superior to Golarion guns in almost every single way, except perhaps at point blank range. Tribes of naked natives wielding slings, spears, and hedge-magic would effectively crush that one nation with the guns and such if you were to pit them against each other. Heck, the nation with guns has the best reason ever for being the way they are. They live in a secluded mountain range, which has helped them turtle themselves away due to their lack of magic; and yet they weren't conquered by anyone else 'cause no one wants a place where magic doesn't work. Sure, they think it's because of their guns, and we let them think that it is, because we don't want them to feel bad.

    While you may see a Decepticon, I see a mad wizard's obsession with clockwork mechanisms combined with a healthy dose of magic, 'cause, let's face it guys, magic is the ultimate technology. It can create huge amounts of harnessable energy instantly and sustain it.

    Dark Archive

    Numeria

    I feel it doesn't fit at all...

    on the other hand I find it hilarious.

    Silver Crusade

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    Needs more detailed CN orc tribes in Belkzen what with Gorum worship being on the rise among that population.

    Or details for any tribe of orcs that aren't just evil... Anything to have some actual decent orc culture for heroic half-orcs/orcs to pull from so that they aren't forced to be "lone rebel against their own kind" again.

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    Mikaze wrote:

    Needs more detailed CN orc tribes in Belkzen what with Gorum worship being on the rise among that population.

    Or details for any tribe of orcs that aren't just evil... Anything to have some actual decent orc culture for heroic half-orcs/orcs to pull from so that they aren't forced to be "lone rebel against their own kind" again.

    You ought to give that write up. I now have the image of a tribe of CG orcs, trying to make it in the darkness, only to be slaughtered by all these dwarves that burrowed up from the ground and saw orcs. :-)

    Scarab Sages

    Mikaze wrote:

    Needs more detailed CN orc tribes in Belkzen what with Gorum worship being on the rise among that population.

    Or details for any tribe of orcs that aren't just evil... Anything to have some actual decent orc culture for heroic half-orcs/orcs to pull from so that they aren't forced to be "lone rebel against their own kind" again.

    Not quite the same, but I think I recall something about Kaer Maga having a significant population of half-orcs. I actually have a character right now who is a second-generation half-orc from KM.


    I looked at the Inner Sea world Guide again and read a little about Numeria, and unless I get it wrong, Numeria is pretty much Yor's World. And that's fricking awesome!

    Silver Crusade

    The NPC wrote:

    As the title says: What about Golarion bugs you?

    For me: The obvious real world expys.

    What about you guys?

    I didn't think of it?

    Okay, nothing bugs me about it. I haven't given it enough thought to say -- HEY! I DON'T LIKE THIS! --


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    The human-centric influence is sometimes too strong. I recently got my hands on Pirates of the Inner Sea and I was disappointed not to see at least one group of monstrous pirates. A band of orc or goblinoid reavers, or gnoll slaving ships could have really made the fantasy stand out a bit more. Maybe some dissatisfied tiefling pirates that hunt Chelish ships and harass their navy would be nice too.

    Shadow Lodge

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    The giant unexplained eternal hurricane

    Not enough info on absolam or on the Star Stone or what one has to do to touch the Star Stone and become a God which everyone of my players wanted to do straight away the minute the found out about the quest and the temple. Even had the rogue questioning me about stealing it.

    Edit: Not enough consistent info on Absalom. Some of my players found discrepancies between Guide to Absalom and The inner sea campaign book.

    Shadow Lodge

    HappyDaze wrote:
    Maybe some dissatisfied tiefling pirates that hunt Chelish ships and harass their navy would be nice too.

    That actually sounds pretty dang amazing. How about a group of Tieflings and Aasimar sort of Robin Hooding Cheliax?

    Shadow Lodge

    In fact, stolen.

    Dark Archive

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    Beckett wrote:
    HappyDaze wrote:
    Maybe some dissatisfied tiefling pirates that hunt Chelish ships and harass their navy would be nice too.
    That actually sounds pretty dang amazing. How about a group of Tieflings and Aasimar sort of Robin Hooding Cheliax?

    That does rock. Oppressed tieflings and halflings, working with some humans, halflings and aasimar from Andoran, as part of an anti-slaver buccaneer fleet, could be totally funky.

    Only Cheliax could create a sound in-game rationale for a bunch of tieflings and aasimar to work together against a common foe.

    Silver Crusade

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    Set wrote:
    Beckett wrote:
    HappyDaze wrote:
    Maybe some dissatisfied tiefling pirates that hunt Chelish ships and harass their navy would be nice too.
    That actually sounds pretty dang amazing. How about a group of Tieflings and Aasimar sort of Robin Hooding Cheliax?

    That does rock. Oppressed tieflings and halflings, working with some humans, halflings and aasimar from Andoran, as part of an anti-slaver buccaneer fleet, could be totally funky.

    Only Cheliax could create a sound in-game rationale for a bunch of tieflings and aasimar to work together against a common foe.

    Hells yeah. Add in a small dose of strix and you've got all the big oppressed races of that nation covered.

    What an awesome looking crew you can get out of that combination...

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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    Set wrote:
    Beckett wrote:
    HappyDaze wrote:
    Maybe some dissatisfied tiefling pirates that hunt Chelish ships and harass their navy would be nice too.
    That actually sounds pretty dang amazing. How about a group of Tieflings and Aasimar sort of Robin Hooding Cheliax?

    That does rock. Oppressed tieflings and halflings, working with some humans, halflings and aasimar from Andoran, as part of an anti-slaver buccaneer fleet, could be totally funky.

    Only Cheliax could create a sound in-game rationale for a bunch of tieflings and aasimar to work together against a common foe.

    I'd suggest staying away from Andoran help just to avoid the stereotype. Make their backers be Taldan, or maybe even some deposed Chelish families looking to strike back at the current regime.

    Silver Crusade

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    Matthew Morris wrote:
    Mikaze wrote:

    Needs more detailed CN orc tribes in Belkzen what with Gorum worship being on the rise among that population.

    Or details for any tribe of orcs that aren't just evil... Anything to have some actual decent orc culture for heroic half-orcs/orcs to pull from so that they aren't forced to be "lone rebel against their own kind" again.

    You ought to give that write up. I now have the image of a tribe of CG orcs, trying to make it in the darkness, only to be slaughtered by all these dwarves that burrowed up from the ground and saw orcs. :-)

    I got a bunch o' tribe concepts, though I wouldn't want to throw any of them under the bus after waiting so long for them.

    Spoiler:
    Though I do have Droskari-dorfs(that eventually became duergar) as being responsible for tampering with the original primitive orcs in an attempt to fashion of slave race, backfiring, and resulting in the frequency of war-craziness among modern orcs in my Golarion. Whole dwarf on orc genocide attempt during the Quest for Sky was born out of that, and the truth was hidden afterwards for so long that it's almost been forgotten entirely by both races, save for the duergar.

    Dark Archive

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    Matthew Morris wrote:
    I'd suggest staying away from Andoran help just to avoid the stereotype. Make their backers be Taldan, or maybe even some deposed Chelish families looking to strike back at the current regime.

    I like that even better. Evil being it's own worst enemy is a theme I like to play with, and some of the worst foes of the Thrice-Damned House of Thrune being the former nobles of 'old Cheliax' who they tried so hard to eradicate and edit out of the history books, makes for some tasty comeuppance.

    In the end, Vecna's worst enemy was Kas, after all, and without Raistlin, Takhisis might have won. It's poetic justice when evil sows the seeds of it's own destruction.

    Shadow Lodge

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    Set wrote:

    Only Cheliax could create a sound in-game rationale for a bunch of tieflings and aasimar to work together against a common foe.

    I can see it now, the entire crew Readyng Actions to strobe-light the Cheliax ship with Daylight/Darkness over and over.

    Shadow Lodge

    Maybe the Aasimar could be the "returned" souls of Milani's faithfull, and the Tieflings dissatisfied former members of Cheliax. Andoran I think makes more sense, as they actively do target Cheliax and other slaver ships, to have at the least trained the crew and set them on their mission. At best, I could see factions in Taldor funding the crew, under that table, or at least having funded them at start up, but I imagine would would end there.


    Set wrote:
    Matthew Morris wrote:
    I'd suggest staying away from Andoran help just to avoid the stereotype. Make their backers be Taldan, or maybe even some deposed Chelish families looking to strike back at the current regime.

    I like that even better. Evil being it's own worst enemy is a theme I like to play with, and some of the worst foes of the Thrice-Damned House of Thrune being the former nobles of 'old Cheliax' who they tried so hard to eradicate and edit out of the history books, makes for some tasty comeuppance.

    This is the direction I would go with. Old Chelish nobility secretly backing the ultimate bastard children of Cheliax against the new order. I certainly wouldn't mix anything shiny and good into the tiefling crews - these would be savage cutthroats out for vengeance (and profit) not lovers of freedom trying to make a better world.

    Silver Crusade

    Matthew Morris wrote:
    Set wrote:
    Beckett wrote:
    HappyDaze wrote:
    Maybe some dissatisfied tiefling pirates that hunt Chelish ships and harass their navy would be nice too.
    That actually sounds pretty dang amazing. How about a group of Tieflings and Aasimar sort of Robin Hooding Cheliax?

    That does rock. Oppressed tieflings and halflings, working with some humans, halflings and aasimar from Andoran, as part of an anti-slaver buccaneer fleet, could be totally funky.

    Only Cheliax could create a sound in-game rationale for a bunch of tieflings and aasimar to work together against a common foe.

    I'd suggest staying away from Andoran help just to avoid the stereotype. Make their backers be Taldan, or maybe even some deposed Chelish families looking to strike back at the current regime.

    Unless they're very recently formed up (and got their act together entirely on their own), or intentionally chasing off Andorans who try to help them, I'd find the complete absence of Andorans very very suspicious and unlikely at best. It's the kind of thing that would only happen if there were something very shady going on-- such as this fleet actually being run by some thoroughly evil masters, who have nothing against slavery and are probably more depraved than the current rulers of Cheliax are, who don't want to change Cheliax's system-- they just want to be the house in charge, in place of the current rulers (which could be a really cool idea).

    Otherwise, considering Andoran's philosophies, purposes, policies, goals; and the sorts of things that Andoran adventurers and freebooters are interested in... This group certainly does not need any ties with or support from Andoran (the country) to exist, but there will be some individual Andorans joining up and trying to help, at the very least, IMO.

    (now of course, if you are going with the corrupted, evil leadership-- by all means, let the complete absence of Andorans be one of the "red flags" that PCs might key into, that something's not quite right)

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    Actually it's my own anti-Andoran biases coming to the fore.

    I dislike it when it seems "They're good pirates/bandits/whathave you. They MUST be Andoran." We get it we get it.


    • Why can't the privateers be funded by Good Chels, and they don't get Andoran support because the Andorans think the Chelish backers are setting a trap?
    • Why can't a Good Taldan nobel reach out to fund anti-Cheliax privateers because he believes a destabalized Cheliax is good for the Inner Sea as a whole and if Cheliax returns to the 'mother country' that's good for everyone?
    • Andoran isn't all sweetness and light. Maybe they don't want to deal with the pirates because they're also attacking Andoran merchant interests

    Just three ways to avoid the 'they're good, so the Andorans must be behind it!' thing.

    Shadow Lodge

    It just makes no sense. Andoran is known for pirating against specifically Cheliax's slave ships, so while they might be a major part, it doesn't really work to have them completely absent.

    Taldor is really pushing it, as they would certainly want to punch at Cheliax, they also woudn't want to get caught supporting them, not to mention the indignity of pirates or Cheliaxian (less than human) fiend blooded cast-offs.

    But that is certainly my anti-Chelax bias. :)

    Dark Archive

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    Beckett wrote:
    It just makes no sense. Andoran is known for pirating against specifically Cheliax's slave ships, so while they might be a major part, it doesn't really work to have them completely absent.

    I do kinda see Matt's point here. Occasionally, on these forums, somebody says I want to play an X who does Y, and their concept gets pooh-poohed with 'group Y does Y anyway, why not play one of them?' as if every single person who does Y has to be part of group Y (or worship god Y, like a recent post in the 'names for rum' thread that suggested that it would be inappropriate or uncharacteristic for an Inquisitor of Iomedae to have an interest in ales and beers, since, by some logic, *anyone* who has anything to do with booze *has* to be a Caydenite, and, by that same logic, before Cayden ascended, beer and ale apparently didn't exist, because non-Caydenites who drink or work as brewers are somehow suspect or 'wrong'...).

    A group of Chelish disenfranchised ex-nobles, gathering up those dispossessed by Chelish racial intolerance (and history-editing) such as halflings, tieflings and elves, might make a fine secret faction that wouldn't necessarily have (or want) anything to do with Andoren rabble and their anti-monarchial views (since the Andorens aren't exactly big fans of restoring the *previous* Chelish aristocracy, as that goes against their 'common people' / equality thing).

    Their goals, while using the same sorts of tools as the Andorens, would ultimately be at odds with Andoren equality and freedoms and whatnot. The ex-nobles wouldn't be anti-dictatorship and anti-oppression and anti-inequality, they'd be anti-someone-else-being-the-dictator and anti-them-no-longer-being-at-the-top-of-the-social-heirarchy...

    That all said, it's entirely possible lower tiers of either organization would work well together. A Bellflower operative or Grey Fleet captain might not care in the short term that these agents have an agenda to restore an imperial Cheliax without quite so many Thrunites, so long as they can work with them to get some halflings out of the country or prevent some fresh shipments of slaves from bolstering the economy/power of the current Chelish ruling authority.

    Politics makes strange bedfellows, as they say.

    Shadow Lodge

    But, that wouldn't have anything to do with either Tieflings (second class citizens in old and new Cheliax) or Aasimar decidedly not hell-related.

    A human (ex-Cheliaxian noblility) and Halfling crew, sure. But even then, why would they not ally with Andoran, who are doing almost the exact same thing, and for similar motives.

    Shadow Lodge

    Set wrote:
    Occasionally, on these forums, somebody says I want to play an X who does Y, and their concept gets pooh-poohed with 'group Y does Y anyway, why not play one of them?' as if every single person who does Y has to be part of group Y (or worship god Y, like a recent post in the 'names for rum' thread that suggested that it would be inappropriate or uncharacteristic for an Inquisitor of Iomedae to have an interest in ales and beers, since, by some logic, *anyone* who has anything to do with booze *has* to be a Caydenite, and, by that same logic, before Cayden ascended, beer and ale apparently didn't exist, because non-Caydenites who drink or work as brewers are somehow suspect or 'wrong'...).

    Granted, I fully agree with this part, but I don't thik it's the same issue.

    I have wondered who sponcered most Paladins before Aroden went away.


    Beckett wrote:

    But, that wouldn't have anything to do with either Tieflings (second class citizens in old and new Cheliax) or Aasimar decidedly not hell-related.

    A human (ex-Cheliaxian noblility) and Halfling crew, sure. But even then, why would they not ally with Andoran, who are doing almost the exact same thing, and for similar motives.

    I'm not so certain that the number of tieflings in pre-Thrune Cheliax was ever significant. I think that they are a byproduct of the new regime, and that's why the old nobility could utilize them (initially, I see the bands growing increasingly independent over time).

    This group is not out to help halflings or anyone but themselves and their secret sponsors. As for aasimar, I never envisioned them as a part of this at all.

    Make no mistake, I picture these tiefling pirates as being nasty fellows that prey upon the powers of Cheliax but don't much care if they harm the numerous innocents that get in their way - in some ways a "greater of two evils" than the Chels.

    Dark Archive

    Beckett wrote:
    I have wondered who sponcered most Paladins before Aroden went away.

    Good point.

    Torag is awfully dwarf-centric, at times, so while he seems a fine Paladin choice, a pre-Iomedan *human* order of Paladins seems less likely to have defaulted to him. Erastil is kind of rural, in focus, and, again, that doesn't exactly scream 'knightly orders.' (Although a more woodsy order, like Greyhawks 'Knights of the Hart' seem custom-made for Erastil, or, vice-versa...)

    Then again, it's been clarified that Arazni was a *wizard* in life, and she seems to have had an order of knightly, possibly even Paladin-ly, followers, so who knows. A bunch of paladins serving a wizard demi-goddess would certainly be uncharacteristic, and therefore, intriguing!

    There seems to have been a magic god or two banging around (like Lissala), perhaps before Nethys burst onto the scene, but it's not clear who rogue-ish types rallied around before Norgorber slunk out of the Starstone, all resplendent in his new godliness. Calistria, perhaps? Sivanah, like Lleira, ecliped by a 'Dark Sun?' Some other rogue-ish god(dess) who has since mysteriously gone silent, after being invited into a dark alley by the new god on the block?

    Silver Crusade

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Matthew Morris wrote:

    Actually it's my own anti-Andoran biases coming to the fore.

    I dislike it when it seems "They're good pirates/bandits/whathave you. They MUST be Andoran." We get it we get it.

    I do want to say, I wasn't think that (some) Andorans would get themselves involved just because "they're good pirates..." I was thinking some Andorans would get themselves involved because Andoran is such a breeding ground for freedom fighters, anti-slavery types, and foes of tyrants and oppressors everywhere-- just seems unlikely that, if this is a crew that is intent on fighting slavery and oppression in Cheliax, and would like to overthrow the current Chelish government (unless the intent is to overthrow it and become the new tyrants), that some Andorans wouldn't try to join up and help.

    I'm definitely of the opinion that this doesn't have to be sponsored or directly supported by Andoran (as a nation/faction) and the Andorans IMO do not need to be behind it; I was just pointing out that IMO the absence of anyone who happens to be Andoran and/or buys in Andoran's usual goals, is kind of a "red flag" saying something's up here, if the guys who are so vehemently "pro-freedom" and "anti-slavery" are entirely absent... (although that will also be the case anyway, if this group is fairly new even if everything is as it seems).

    Matthew Morris wrote:



    • Why can't the privateers be funded by Good Chels, and they don't get Andoran support because the Andorans think the Chelish backers are setting a trap?
    • Why can't a Good Taldan nobel reach out to fund anti-Cheliax privateers because he believes a destabalized Cheliax is good for the Inner Sea as a whole and if Cheliax returns to the 'mother country' that's good for everyone?
    • Andoran isn't all sweetness and light. Maybe they don't want to deal with the pirates because they're also attacking Andoran merchant interests

    I like the first one as a reason why Andorans might avoid this, without it necessarily meaning this group is up to no good.

    The second and third reasons, IMO, would not keep individual Andorans from trying to lend a hand.

    Silver Crusade

    Set wrote:


    A group of Chelish disenfranchised ex-nobles, gathering up those dispossessed by Chelish racial intolerance (and history-editing) such as halflings, tieflings and elves, might make a fine secret faction that wouldn't necessarily have (or want) anything to do with Andoren rabble and their anti-monarchial views (since the Andorens aren't exactly big fans of restoring the *previous* Chelish aristocracy, as that goes against their 'common people' / equality thing).

    Their goals, while using the same sorts of tools as the Andorens, would ultimately be at odds with Andoren equality and freedoms and whatnot. The ex-nobles wouldn't be anti-dictatorship and anti-oppression and anti-inequality, they'd be anti-someone-else-being-the-dictator and anti-them-no-longer-being-at-the-top-of-the-social-heirarchy...

    Set--

    Nice post. I think I mentioned something like this, btw-- as a reason why Andorans might stay away and not get involved in this anti-(official)Cheliax operation.


    Set wrote:

    10,000 years of history. That's rather a lot. I remember disliking that in Eberron as well (much more so, there, actually).

    Cutting timeline ages by a factor of ten (or at least five!) would neatly streamline that, I think.

    It's a lot when considering the lifespan of a human, not so much when considering the lifespan of elves...especially elves that came from another planet, left, and came back again...

    10,000 years is what, 5000 generations of humans (generation every 20 years), but only like 100 generations of elves (generation every 100 years)...fold that back in to the human timeline and 100 generations of humans is only 2000 years of history...

    We date stuff back to 10,000 BC in our current timeline, or even 15,000 BC. The oldest known civilizations are over 6000 years old on Earth (Sumeria c.4000-4500 BC), so why is 10,000 so strange in a game with elves???


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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    HappyDaze wrote:
    The human-centric influence is sometimes too strong. I recently got my hands on Pirates of the Inner Sea and I was disappointed not to see at least one group of monstrous pirates. A band of orc or goblinoid reavers, or gnoll slaving ships could have really made the fantasy stand out a bit more. Maybe some dissatisfied tiefling pirates that hunt Chelish ships and harass their navy would be nice too.

    I know this isn't a thread about pirates and I don't want to derail, but I have to admit I'm disappointed by missing the opportunity to see a bugbear or hobgoblin dressed as a pirate captain. Or gnoll buccaneers in general. I figured a place like the Shackles would be an unsavory enough place that we could see... shall we say, traditional evil races there without immediately going, 'Oh, it's an orc, killit,' but no. Meh. Even if they're cruel and unsavory, it'd be nice to actually get some hob-nobbing with hobgoblins so they could get some dialogue outside of death-screams.

    That actually encompasses two of the things about Golarion that bug me...

    1) There are plenty of "designated evil" races that have languages, and cultures, but really, there's rarely a reason to have a conversation with them. Because, you know, evil.

    2) I sometimes wonder why the heck races like orcs, ogres, and hobgoblins collect money if they don't have neutral ports to spend it. At least gnolls can shlep on down to Katapesh to spend their ill-gotten gains.

    Dark Archive

    Drakli wrote:
    it'd be nice to actually get some hob-nobbing with hobgoblins so they could get some dialogue outside of death-screams.

    Heh, nice wordplay.

    My bugbear pirates will be buccaneyes, because they realized that, unlike ears, it's impossible to tell a left eye from a right eye, and they can get paid twice for each kill!

    And really, who'se gonna argue with a bugbear pirate with a jar full of eyes, when it comes time to pay up?


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Set wrote:
    Drakli wrote:
    it'd be nice to actually get some hob-nobbing with hobgoblins so they could get some dialogue outside of death-screams.

    Heh, nice wordplay.

    My bugbear pirates will be buccaneyes, because they realized that, unlike ears, it's impossible to tell a left eye from a right eye, and they can get paid twice for each kill!

    And really, who'se gonna argue with a bugbear pirate with a jar full of eyes, when it comes time to pay up?

    Hellknights?

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