Caster-Martial Disparity Battleground - No Crying.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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ShadowcatX wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:

Your gear is all priced wrong. Crafting does not decrease the value of magic items and, as such, has absolutely no affect on the total value of magic items you can carry wrt WBL.

This is another one of those common errors "wizard as god" theorycrafters make.

Funny, there's 1 item self crafted there (the golem), and less than half WBL spent. I did screw up pretty bad before I edited, that's what happens when you're doing this in free time at work and change things around several times as ideas come to you.

Edit: You're right, I mispriced the headband as well, it should be 36,000 rather than 32,000. That was a typo. I apologize.

I believe everything else should be on the up and up.

Edit 2: Honestly, I don't have a whole lot of experience doing high level characters, and I'm tight with my money, my list of spells would probably look like a sorcerer's rather than a wizards, and my list would be different creating at 20 rather than growing organically.

Maybe 4 extra per spell level excepting 1st and 9th?

The headband was what I alerted on.

A headband of mental prowess +6 is 90,000.

Liberty's Edge

I cut it back to a headband of intellect in the edit. I just forgot to change the name (I did change from charisma & intellect to just intellect, and modified the stats accordingly).

Liberty's Edge

Ok. Odd. At least one of my edits didn't go through. Again I apologize. This is the updated build:

20 point build; middle-aged human Conjurer Wizard 20 banning enchantment / evocation

Str 6
Dex 20
Con 20
Int 36
wis 8
Chr 13

Feats:
Improved Initiative, Golem Constructor (Iron Golem), Improved Familiar, Spell focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Quicken Spell, Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, supperior summoning, Experimental Wordcaster (Servitor IX), leadership, spell penetration, improved spell penetration, spell perfection (choice of spell), Extra traits,

Skills:
Use Magic Device 20, Perception 20, Stealth 20, assorted knowledge and social skills @ 20,

Equipment (season to taste with metamagic rods, spells for spellbook, extra spellbook, spell components, handy sack, etc.):
+5 tome of clear thought (137,500), +6 headband of supperior intellect (36,000), +6 belt of physical might dexterity and constitution (90,000), cloak of resistance +5 (25,000), tome of leadership and influence +1 (27,500) Iron Shield Golem 175,000 (self crafted)

Traits:
Reactionary, Eyes and ears of the city, Outlander: Loreseeker (choose 3), magical lineage (perfected spell)

contingency: Say "Oh ****" - Teleport back to sanctum


I might switch to the teleportation subschool, teleporting as a move is pretty sweet.

You'll need to hit yourself with anthaul to carry anything, str 6 is 20 lbs, or your encumbered. A haversack, metamagic rod, spell pouch and a belt are running you 12 pounds.

The permanent Summon Monster 9 is pretty sweet.

Liberty's Edge

AlecStorm wrote:
Rules don't give limitations for outsider, and maybe Tarrasque has a proper class, but obviously with such CR creatures is not size the problem. Also, no limitation to living creatures. If is not one of those, will be another. And 12 hours is like permanent, for adventure purpose.

Polymorph any object functions like greater polymorph, except that it allows an object to become a creature, or a creature to become an object (and it can be permanent if the two are close enough to one another).

If you change something into a magical beast, like a Tarrasque, it functions like beast shape IV. That means that you're limited to no more than a Large magical beast (such as a Manticore, for example). You can't turn something into a Colossal magical beast. Period.

Nice try, though.

Liberty's Edge

Heymitch wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Rules don't give limitations for outsider, and maybe Tarrasque has a proper class, but obviously with such CR creatures is not size the problem. Also, no limitation to living creatures. If is not one of those, will be another. And 12 hours is like permanent, for adventure purpose.

Polymorph any object functions like greater polymorph, except that it allows an object to become a creature, or a creature to become an object (and it can be permanent if the two are close enough to one another).

If you change something into a magical beast, like a Tarrasque, it functions like beast shape IV. That means that you're limited to no more than a Large magical beast (such as a Manticore, for example). You can't turn something into a Colossal magical beast. Period.

Nice try, though.

+1.

Or an outsider for that matter.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Heymitch wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Rules don't give limitations for outsider, and maybe Tarrasque has a proper class, but obviously with such CR creatures is not size the problem. Also, no limitation to living creatures. If is not one of those, will be another. And 12 hours is like permanent, for adventure purpose.

Polymorph any object functions like greater polymorph, except that it allows an object to become a creature, or a creature to become an object (and it can be permanent if the two are close enough to one another).

If you change something into a magical beast, like a Tarrasque, it functions like beast shape IV. That means that you're limited to no more than a Large magical beast (such as a Manticore, for example). You can't turn something into a Colossal magical beast. Period.

Nice try, though.

IOW, because of the limitation as greater polymorph, you can't change something into an outsider, period. You can change an outsider into something else, but you can't change anything into an outsider. The spell says what it does and does what it says. It doesn't give limitations for outsiders because it doesn't allow you to turn things into outsiders; that's the limit, that you can't do it at all.

Also, as stated previously, NONE of the polymorph spells actually turn you into a literal/actual creature of the type you become. You gain stat mods to YOUR stats based on the spell and the size of the creature. You gain special abilities that the creature possesses *IF* the spell lists them; if it doesn't, then you don't. The advancing power of the polymorph spells isn't just access to bigger sizes of creatures; it's also to a bigger menu of potential options of the abilities those creatures possess.

You may look like a [monster] and smell like a [monster] and gain SOME of the abilities of a [monster], but the target is still the basis creature that it started as, wearing a [monster] suit. That's the way polymorph works in PF - you are still YOU, modified by the polymorph.


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TO CONCLUSION:

SPELL AM NOT WORK THAT WAY.

NOW WHERE AM BARBARIAN GOING TO FIND JABBERWOCKY SUIT AT THIS TIME NIGHT ON TUESDAY?

BARBARIAN WILLING TO SKIN OWN JABBERWOCKY IF NEEDED, BUT NOT KNOW WHAT ONE LOOK LIKE. LAST TIME THIS HAPPEN BARBARIAN COME TO PARTY DRESSED AS NYMPH.

MAYBE BUILD SHOULD INCLUDE KNOWLEDGE ARCANA AND NATURE.


Can't AM BARBARIAN spell sunder harmful effects like a blindness deafness spell or a bestow curse spell. How does the wizard do that.


LilithsThrall wrote:


Your gear is all priced wrong. Remember that crafting decreases the cost of making a magic item. It doesn't decrease the value of a magic item. Therefore, it has absolutely no affect on the total value of magic items you can carry wrt WBL.
This is another one of those common errors "wizard as god" theorycrafters make.
Plus, I'd like you to list exactly how much gold you are spending to buy spells for your spellbook and, roughly, how many spells at which spell levels (roughly, there's no need to get too precise yet).

Hmmm i think i woudlnt agree on WBL and item crafting issue,you pointed out tbh.And i doubt it is by RAW,as that would be utterly wrong.

So lets say like this.

For example,ranger on 20th lvl have 880,000 gp and he cannot make magic items.So he spent all his gold and now have magic items that have appropriate value according to WBL,which is okay.

Now we have wizard that have 880,000gp and he can make magic items.So he spent 440,000 gp and made SAME items as rangers bought,that are valued 880,000gp originally.So we have wizard with same items and 440,00 gp left.So you wanna say because of WBL he cant spend any more gold now lol?So that table in book will pop up from sky and tell him:

"Hey,you reached your wealth by level limit,so you cant buy anything else!!!"?

And he will sit there with his 440,000 gp doing nothing,becuase he reached the WBL limit?o.O

Lol,i guess if he want,he will just go and use another 440,000 gp to make more items and have 1,760,000 gp in value,which is perfectly logical and normal.


SRD wrote:

Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level.

PC Level Wealth

20 880,000 gp

It's not an issue for ShadowcatX, but WBL is the amount they suggest you have, not the amount you've spent.


Leongorance wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:


Your gear is all priced wrong. Remember that crafting decreases the cost of making a magic item. It doesn't decrease the value of a magic item. Therefore, it has absolutely no affect on the total value of magic items you can carry wrt WBL.
This is another one of those common errors "wizard as god" theorycrafters make.
Plus, I'd like you to list exactly how much gold you are spending to buy spells for your spellbook and, roughly, how many spells at which spell levels (roughly, there's no need to get too precise yet).

Hmmm i think i woudlnt agree on WBL and item crafting issue,you pointed out tbh.And i doubt it is by RAW,as that would be utterly wrong.

So lets say like this.

For example,ranger on 20th lvl have 880,000 gp and he cannot make magic items.So he spent all his gold and now have magic items that have appropriate value according to WBL,which is okay.

Now we have wizard that have 880,000gp and he can make magic items.So he spent 440,000 gp and made SAME items as rangers bought,that are valued 880,000gp originally.So we have wizard with same items and 440,00 gp left.So you wanna say because of WBL he cant spend any more gold now lol?So that table in book will pop up from sky and tell him:

"Hey,you reached your wealth by level limit,so you cant buy anything else!!!"?

And he will sit there with his 440,000 gp doing nothing,becuase he reached the WBL limit?o.O

Lol,i guess if he want,he will just go and use another 440,000 gp to make more items and have 1,760,000 gp in value,which is perfectly logical and normal.

It doesn't really mater to me what he spends the 440,000 gp on (buying beer for his friends if he wants). By RAW, he can't spend it to increase his wealth to the level it'd be raised if he were allowed to use craft to circumvent WBL.

Now, as a GM, you are allowed to alter the rules any way you like. I recommend that you alter them to promote balance between characters. But we're not discussing house rules here.


doctor_wu wrote:
Can't AM BARBARIAN spell sunder harmful effects like a blindness deafness spell or a bestow curse spell. How does the wizard do that.

"HE SMASHES THE ILLNESS FROM THEM! ILLNESS TOO IS A THING THAT CAN BE BROKEN! SO SAYETH LORD SUNDER!"


By RAW WBL is a guideline for standard fantasy games and only a guideline. This is easily demonstrated by the recommended treasure drops, the XP guidelines, and WBL not lining up if the PCs use either more or fewer consumables than expected. The rules cannot force the PCs to use more potions, wands, and expensive material components than they want nor to use fewer. Nor do the rules forbid the PCs from using the profession rules to offset day to day expenses. The only binding rules regarding wealth are the rules for making profession checks, the rules for starting wealth, and the rules for crafting items. The rules in the parts of the book that players are expected to familiarize themselves with, not the rules in the chapter that would have been in the gamemastery book if the CRB were still called the players handbook.


LORD SUNDER wrote:
doctor_wu wrote:
Can't AM BARBARIAN spell sunder harmful effects like a blindness deafness spell or a bestow curse spell. How does the wizard do that.
"HE SMASHES THE ILLNESS FROM THEM! ILLNESS TOO IS A THING THAT CAN BE BROKEN! SO SAYETH LORD SUNDER!"

Slaps you on the head like one of those tent revival evangelists.

HEAL! as he gives you whiplash and sends you to the chiropractor for six weeks.


Atarlost wrote:
By RAW WBL is a guideline for standard fantasy games and only a guideline. This is easily demonstrated by the recommended treasure drops, the XP guidelines, and WBL not lining up if the PCs use either more or fewer consumables than expected. The rules cannot force the PCs to use more potions, wands, and expensive material components than they want nor to use fewer. Nor do the rules forbid the PCs from using the profession rules to offset day to day expenses. The only binding rules regarding wealth are the rules for making profession checks, the rules for starting wealth, and the rules for crafting items. The rules in the parts of the book that players are expected to familiarize themselves with, not the rules in the chapter that would have been in the gamemastery book if the CRB were still called the players handbook.

We're comparing classes in this thread. Arbitrarily breaking RAW in order to give one of the compared classes several levels worth of additional wealth doesn't prove anything.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
By RAW WBL is a guideline for standard fantasy games and only a guideline. This is easily demonstrated by the recommended treasure drops, the XP guidelines, and WBL not lining up if the PCs use either more or fewer consumables than expected. The rules cannot force the PCs to use more potions, wands, and expensive material components than they want nor to use fewer. Nor do the rules forbid the PCs from using the profession rules to offset day to day expenses. The only binding rules regarding wealth are the rules for making profession checks, the rules for starting wealth, and the rules for crafting items. The rules in the parts of the book that players are expected to familiarize themselves with, not the rules in the chapter that would have been in the gamemastery book if the CRB were still called the players handbook.
We're comparing classes in this thread. Arbitrarily breaking RAW in order to give one of the compared classes several levels worth of additional wealth doesn't prove anything.

WBL isn't a rule any more than the sample random encounter tables in the gamemastery book are rules. The crafting feats and the crafting rules in the skills and magic items sections are rules. You can, of course, houserule that crafting feats are banned. In your own home game. You could require PFS builds. Except that AM is going to be a much easier opponent at level 12 where he can't rage cycle without surrendering the argument by dipping a full casting class.

The ability of casters to use the crafting feats more effectively compared to the painful limits on master craftsman and the gap between mundane crafting and fabricate are part of the caster-martial disparity.


The WBL table for a 20th level wizard doesn't take into account all those Gate spells the wizard cast to deal with a raging barbarian.

Money saved by crafting items
money spent by stupid expensive spells
And apparently some wizards spend a lot on Sandwhiches.

turns into a wash.

Barbarian just spends silver pieces of drinks. And maybe wenches.


Or the Martial takes Master Craftsman feat and make his own gear too. He'll be able to get high enough checks to not NEED spells for them. AM BARBARIAN might have to decide if freeing up 2 to 3 higher level feats to double his magic item budget would be worth while.

A fighter could swing it even easier.

But there is a reason why discussions like this use a standardized reference point. The WBL doesn't take into consideration all the Wish and Gate spells the Wizard cast between 17th and 20th level either.

In play in a normal, non-PFS game is there value to those feats? Sure. Cost saving or a way to get the items you want when you want them. Not every GM runs a 'magic mart' world where a character can just ask for X and it be delivered for market price.


The other point to make here?

Wealth By Level is an accumulation of the overall goods you gained. The wizard seems to be assuming these goods are all coin. Fact is, they aren't.

If a Wizard gets a magic sword, (2000 GP), sells it, gets 1000 GP for it, and then uses that to craft items, what's the net worth of the items?

It ain't 4000 GP. Same basic thing applies with WBL. You have received 880,000 GP in accumulated stuff over your adventuring days. You probably sold some of it to craft other stuff. Let's say you sold 600,000 GP worth of stuff of what you accumulated. You get 300,000 GP. You then craft with that 300,000 GP...

And voila, you've made 600,000 in stuff. Crafting feats are about making sure items are available that otherwise wouldn't be, not about circumventing WBL. To argue otherwise is to argue that organic growth and character creation at a specific level are 2 different things.

And that would make a 'Created character - Organic character' disparity. Way too many words.


Trinam wrote:

The other point to make here?

It ain't 4000 GP. Same basic thing applies with WBL. You have received 880,000 GP in accumulated stuff over your adventuring days. You probably sold some of it to craft other stuff. Let's say you sold 600,000 GP worth of stuff of what you accumulated. You get 300,000 GP. You then craft with that 300,000 GP...

And voila, you've made 600,000 in stuff. Crafting feats are about making sure items are available that otherwise wouldn't be, not about circumventing WBL. To argue otherwise is to argue that organic growth and character creation at a specific level are 2 different things.

So you are saying that barbarian gets only 300,000 gp in stuff?


Of course not. AM has made a career out of killing casters, most of whom probably had craft feats.

Either he's at WBL as normal, or we have to account for the fact that every enemy he's ever killed in his entire career has double-standard-level-PC wealth.

I'll leave that to your option.

(Hint: You want the first one.)


Prost wrote:

Or the Martial takes Master Craftsman feat and make his own gear too. He'll be able to get high enough checks to not NEED spells for them. AM BARBARIAN might have to decide if freeing up 2 to 3 higher level feats to double his magic item budget would be worth while.

A fighter could swing it even easier.

But there is a reason why discussions like this use a standardized reference point. The WBL doesn't take into consideration all the Wish and Gate spells the Wizard cast between 17th and 20th level either.

In play in a normal, non-PFS game is there value to those feats? Sure. Cost saving or a way to get the items you want when you want them. Not every GM runs a 'magic mart' world where a character can just ask for X and it be delivered for market price.

Master Craftsman lets you use one craft skill with a craft feat. The craft skills are narrower than the craft feats. A wizard can get craft magical arms and armor. He can use it to enchant bows, weapons, and armor.

A fighter with master craftsman can alos take craft magical arms and armor, but the Master Craftsman can only use it with the one craft skill he took with master craftsman. If you want to craft magic bows, weapons, and armor you need three craftsmen because you can't take the feat multiple times. Craft Wondrous Item encompasses boots, jewelry, clothing, and other miscellany. I think only craft ring falls under a single skill. Apart from ringmaking casters get around three times as much mileage from the craft feat and don't need master craftsman as a prerequisite.

And then to add insult to injury they can craft mundane items far faster using the fabricate spell.

If income is not in coins AM should have to generate his equipment with a random treasure table to account for the value of the crafting feats.


I'm sure you could look at all the items you want in a spread sheet, figure out which craft skill saves you the most. Figure out how much that saving would be and then decide if it's worth it. Given the price of items at high tier, getting 2 or 3...which is easy peezy with Wonderous Items. Or a dual wielding fighter. A dual wielding fighter could buy two +10 weapons for the price of 1 if we go by the logic of craft save money on WBL table. Or even just 1 +10 weapon saves you 100k. Is it more limited? Yeah, but tell me you couldn't make 2 feats that give you 100k work into a build.

Heck, if AM had 2 +10 Lances to pick from with a different load out of abilities for the price of one, I bet he could come up with some stuff. And that was me spending less than a minute considering the cost savings of it. If I really wanted to get Min/Max and find out how far I could take 1 skill in savings I'm confident I could do much better than 100k.

But that's why it's silly and I am certainly not advocating that people should view it that way. Trinam just made two very good arguments for why it's set up the way it is in WBL, which I'm in firm agreement with.

(And why would I craft the MW item? That's the cheap but stupidly complicated and long part. I'd just buy that, then bang the enchant I want into the item, taking the same time as a caster to do so.)


If I may,
AM Barbarian sounds very similar to my Invulnerable Rager build.
You''l meet Calain Hearstriker shortly.

My build is More team focused and I think has more to-hit than AM Barbarian. I don't believe he has Reckless Abandon.

Also I have smasher in my build because I read it to mean:

If you ATTACK an unattended object or perform a sunder manuvere (I believe this works on attended armor weapons) you ignore hardness.

I believe this is RAI because attacking an object and sunder object are to different actions. One is simply an attack roll, the other is a CM check. I think sundering your opponents armor/weapon is fine.

IF my DM were to rule different, I'd put in good for what ails you.

Here is what I believe AM BARBARIAN's build would look like. (Based on what he's said he can do.)

Possible AM BARBARIAN:
1 Fast Movement, Rage, Power Attack, Raging Vitality
2 DR1/-, Lesser Beast Totem
3 Extreme Endurance, Improved Sunder
4 DR2/-, Superstition
5 Mounted Combat
6 DR3/-, Fire Resist1, Beast Totem
7 Extra Rage Power: Witchunter
8 DR4/-, Spell Sunder
9 Fire Resist2, Strength Surge
10 DR5/-,Gtr Beast Totem
11 Greater Rage Combat Reflexes
12 Fire Resist3, DR6/-, Come and Get Me
13 Ride by Attack
14 DR7/-, Eater of Magic
15 Fire Resist4, Stunning Assault
16 DR8/-, Ghost Rager
17 Tireless Rage, Spirited Charge
18 DR9/-, Fire Resist5, Surprise Accuracy
19 Raging Brutality
20 Mighty Rage, DR10/-, Sunder Enchantment

The order may change but this covers everything AM BARBARIAN says he can do.

Note- as awesome as AM BARBARIAN IS. My build can drop things with a Lance Pounce full attack as well. WITHOUT NEEDING MOUNTED FEATS- A single Pounce full attack, using Raging Brutality vs a Caster or Creature with SLA does 360damage (since with reckless abandon, surprise accuracy all attacks hit except on a 1) and has to save vs daze.
AM BARBARIAN might miss one attack (since no reckless abandon) but does triple damage per strike with a lance so more than makes up for it.

I'd simply ride something tough, that can take a hit.


Note,

AM BARBARIAN could also forget Raging Brutality and Sunder Enchantment and take Ferocious Mount and Gtr Ferocious Mount to let Batty Bat Rage and Gain Superstition to saves.

It does NOT require the Mount class feature. Only that you be mounted. So it works on Batty Bat.


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Calain Heartstriker is the most feared Barbarian out of the frozen wastes!!!

My people have survived on the tundra for centuries, hunting the elk and killing the frost worms that dare attack us from the backs of the mastadons who share our lands!!!

Never have I met a man or monster that could stand agaist me!!!

I ride the winds with my sometime companion Dragon Horse FROSTFIRE, a proud creature whose loyalty is secured though friendship and a bond forged in Blood.
(took Missing Sibling to get Diplomacy as a class skill).

Those who would oppose me- HIDE BEHIND YOUR SPELLS AND DIE LIKE A COWARD!! OR STAND BEFORE ME AND KNOW YOUR WORTH!!

Calain Heartstriker:
1 Fast Movement, Rage, Power Attack, Raging Vitality
2 DR1/-, Lesser Beast Totem
3 Extreme Endurance, Improved Sunder
4 DR2/-, Reckless Abandon
5 Extra Rage Power: Superstition
6 DR3/-, Cold Resist1, Beast Totem
7 Extra Rage Power: Witchunter
8 DR4/-, Spell Sunder
9 Cold Resist2, Extra Rage Power: Strength Surge
10 DR5/-,Gtr Beast Totem
11 Greater Rage Combat Reflexes
12 Cold Resist3, DR6/-, Come and Get Me
13 Dazing Assault
14 DR7/-, Eater of Magic
15 Cold Resist4, Raging Brutality
16 DR8/-, Ghost Rager
17 Tireless Rage, DR9/-,Raging Deathblow
18 Cold Resist5, Surprise Accuracy
19 Extra Rage Power: Smasher
20 Mighty Rage, DR10/-, Sunder Enchantment

Mount: Frostfire. Befriended CR9 Dragon Horse


STR Ranger wrote:

Note- as awesome as AM BARBARIAN IS. My build can drop things with a Lance Pounce full attack as well. WITHOUT NEEDING MOUNTED FEATS- A single Pounce full attack, using Raging Brutality vs a Caster or Creature with SLA does 360damage (since with reckless abandon, surprise accuracy all attacks hit except on a 1) and has to save vs daze.

AM BARBARIAN might miss one attack (since no reckless abandon) but does triple damage per strike with a lance so more than makes up for it.

You mean when pouncing and charging mounted with a lance, you get triple damage on ALL attacks, not just the first?

I would never allow that at my table, nor would I allow combining pounce and ride-by-attack.


That's the tactic I believe he's using.

You can charge while mounted.
Pounce lets you full attack while charging.
Sprited Charge means you do triple damage on a charge with a lance.

(Personally our group doesn't allow combining Sprited Charge with pounce, but Calain Heartstrike does 360 HP damage on a Pounce anyway AND makes them save vs Dazed. Usually gets the job done)


Jason Nelson wrote:
Heymitch wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Rules don't give limitations for outsider, and maybe Tarrasque has a proper class, but obviously with such CR creatures is not size the problem. Also, no limitation to living creatures. If is not one of those, will be another. And 12 hours is like permanent, for adventure purpose.

Polymorph any object functions like greater polymorph, except that it allows an object to become a creature, or a creature to become an object (and it can be permanent if the two are close enough to one another).

If you change something into a magical beast, like a Tarrasque, it functions like beast shape IV. That means that you're limited to no more than a Large magical beast (such as a Manticore, for example). You can't turn something into a Colossal magical beast. Period.

Nice try, though.

IOW, because of the limitation as greater polymorph, you can't change something into an outsider, period. You can change an outsider into something else, but you can't change anything into an outsider. The spell says what it does and does what it says. It doesn't give limitations for outsiders because it doesn't allow you to turn things into outsiders; that's the limit, that you can't do it at all.

Also, as stated previously, NONE of the polymorph spells actually turn you into a literal/actual creature of the type you become. You gain stat mods to YOUR stats based on the spell and the size of the creature. You gain special abilities that the creature possesses *IF* the spell lists them; if it doesn't, then you don't. The advancing power of the polymorph spells isn't just access to bigger sizes of creatures; it's also to a bigger menu of potential options of the abilities those creatures possess.

You may look like a [monster] and smell like a [monster] and gain SOME of the abilities of a [monster], but the target is still the basis creature that it started as, wearing a [monster] suit. That's the way polymorph works in PF - you are still...

Ok, let's forgive outsider.

Golem or undead. You have not limitations in moprhing the object of the spell in a "non living". No previous spell to copy, you use monster stats.
Obviously is not the way is meant to be used, but it works.
Remember, this is just an exercise about rules, I don't play in such way.


Zen79 wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

Note- as awesome as AM BARBARIAN IS. My build can drop things with a Lance Pounce full attack as well. WITHOUT NEEDING MOUNTED FEATS- A single Pounce full attack, using Raging Brutality vs a Caster or Creature with SLA does 360damage (since with reckless abandon, surprise accuracy all attacks hit except on a 1) and has to save vs daze.

AM BARBARIAN might miss one attack (since no reckless abandon) but does triple damage per strike with a lance so more than makes up for it.

You mean when pouncing and charging mounted with a lance, you get triple damage on ALL attacks, not just the first?

I would never allow that at my table, nor would I allow combining pounce and ride-by-attack.

Rules state so. All attack should be multiplied.

This is another rule that I changed. I feel disgusted even thinking about multiple attacks with a lance... or using it without charging. Ridicolous.

Grand Lodge

Atarlost wrote:


And then to add insult to injury they can craft mundane items far faster using the fabricate spell.

That's only if they're craftsmen themselves. Without a Craft score to back it up, Fabricate only serves as a more rapid way to transform good raw material to useless junk.


Zen79 wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

Note- as awesome as AM BARBARIAN IS. My build can drop things with a Lance Pounce full attack as well. WITHOUT NEEDING MOUNTED FEATS- A single Pounce full attack, using Raging Brutality vs a Caster or Creature with SLA does 360damage (since with reckless abandon, surprise accuracy all attacks hit except on a 1) and has to save vs daze.

AM BARBARIAN might miss one attack (since no reckless abandon) but does triple damage per strike with a lance so more than makes up for it.

You mean when pouncing and charging mounted with a lance, you get triple damage on ALL attacks, not just the first?

I would never allow that at my table, nor would I allow combining pounce and ride-by-attack.

Employ whatever houserules you wish!

I once fought a Balor who had been released upon this world by a foolish mage.
The Balor didn't believe a simple barbarian could do enough damage to beat him in single combat.

He only believed it for about 6 seconds...


Hey,

do eastern weapons still just count as martial?

If so, Calain is wielding a Naodachi he took from a Ronin. 5 attacks, all hitting with a 18-20/x2 1d10 wpn? Yes please!


STR Ranger wrote:

Hey,

do eastern weapons still just count as martial?

If so, Calain is wielding a Naodachi he took from a Ronin. 5 attacks, all hitting with a 18-20/x2 1d10 wpn? Yes please!

Eastern weapons don't count as martial weapons, however the Nodachi inexplicably is just a martial weapon.

Liberty's Edge

AlecStorm wrote:

Ok, let's forgive outsider.

Golem or undead. You have not limitations in moprhing the object of the spell in a "non living". No previous spell to copy, you use monster stats.
Obviously is not the way is meant to be used, but it works.
Remember, this is just an exercise about rules, I don't play in such way.

Its good that you don't play this way because this isn't how the rules work either. You can only do what the spell says. The spell says as though spells x, y, or z were cast on the target. Those are your only options. It doesn't matter that what you're trying to do was legal in 3.5, this is a different game. It doesn't matter that what you're trying to do is thematic with the spell, that's not the rules. All that matters is that you pick, x, y, or z and do that. And neither x, y, nor z allows turning into undead or constructs.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:


Your gear is all priced wrong. Remember that crafting decreases the cost of making a magic item. It doesn't decrease the value of a magic item. Therefore, it has absolutely no affect on the total value of magic items you can carry wrt WBL.
This is another one of those common errors "wizard as god" theorycrafters make.
Plus, I'd like you to list exactly how much gold you are spending to buy spells for your spellbook and, roughly, how many spells at which spell levels (roughly, there's no need to get too precise yet).

Hmmm i think i woudlnt agree on WBL and item crafting issue,you pointed out tbh.And i doubt it is by RAW,as that would be utterly wrong.

So lets say like this.

For example,ranger on 20th lvl have 880,000 gp and he cannot make magic items.So he spent all his gold and now have magic items that have appropriate value according to WBL,which is okay.

Now we have wizard that have 880,000gp and he can make magic items.So he spent 440,000 gp and made SAME items as rangers bought,that are valued 880,000gp originally.So we have wizard with same items and 440,00 gp left.So you wanna say because of WBL he cant spend any more gold now lol?So that table in book will pop up from sky and tell him:

"Hey,you reached your wealth by level limit,so you cant buy anything else!!!"?

And he will sit there with his 440,000 gp doing nothing,becuase he reached the WBL limit?o.O

Lol,i guess if he want,he will just go and use another 440,000 gp to make more items and have 1,760,000 gp in value,which is perfectly logical and normal.

It doesn't really mater to me what he spends the 440,000 gp on (buying beer for his friends if he wants). By RAW, he can't spend it to increase his wealth to the level it'd be raised if he were allowed to use craft to circumvent WBL.

Now, as a GM, you are allowed to alter the rules any way you like. I recommend that you alter them to promote balance between characters. But we're not discussing house...

.....so by RAW player that reach level 20 in his life,is not able to buy gear that is worth 1 milion+gp becuase it is in RAW?!I mean wth?Are you kidding or what?You cant be serious...

Liberty's Edge

WBL are guidelines, and IMO guidelines are more flexible than regular rules. I doubt any game has ever stuck perfectly to WBL after character creation.

That said, WBL is a great balancing point, it shows the expected, average, wealth a person should have at whatever given level for balance purposes and it creates an even playing field for higher level characters. Casters shouldn't, and don't, need to break WBL guidelines to be considered over powered.


ShadowcatX wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:

Ok, let's forgive outsider.

Golem or undead. You have not limitations in moprhing the object of the spell in a "non living". No previous spell to copy, you use monster stats.
Obviously is not the way is meant to be used, but it works.
Remember, this is just an exercise about rules, I don't play in such way.
Its good that you don't play this way because this isn't how the rules work either. You can only do what the spell says. The spell says as though spells x, y, or z were cast on the target. Those are your only options. It doesn't matter that what you're trying to do was legal in 3.5, this is a different game. It doesn't matter that what you're trying to do is thematic with the spell, that's not the rules. All that matters is that you pick, x, y, or z and do that. And neither x, y, nor z allows turning into undead or constructs.

Read better the spell description. You can morph into a non living, golem and undead are non living. Obviously you can handle this using the new spells like undead shape, but this tread has nothing to do with common sense.

Grand Lodge

Leongorance wrote:
.....so by RAW player that reach level 20 in his life,is not able to buy gear that is worth 1 milion+gp becuase it is in RAW?!I mean wth?Are you kidding or what?You cant be serious...lol

One... answering a respondent's point with LOL is pretty damm rude.

Two... WBL is nothing more than a guideline for equipping characters to undertake a campaign with a given difficulty level. You want to give your players more or less... that's your prerogative. But it's easy to munchkin when you're building a character at a given level as oppsoed to having earned gear incrementally through play... The economics of a level rise are going to vary. Going to high level doesn't guarantee wealth, nor protect you from it's loss. WBL assumes that a player has had a string of gains and losses and the figure is what averages out. It also assumes that WBL is not a chunk of change that you go shopping at MagicMart. It respresents the legacy of what you've acquired minus what you've traded or lost.

What was quoted to you is what the table states for a 20th level character, an adventuring character as opposed to a more wealthy character that would have essentially retired from the dungeon-crawling life and more likely would be getting and spending his wealth in other ways. This essentially is a holdover from 3.X.


Said Ranger can take the item creation feats and the Feat Master Craftsman. Yes it will cost you feats but it will allow you to craft magic items for yourself. But remember that all items are worth 1/2 wealth to sell so even if you spend 880000gp your equipment in worth only 440000gp unless you spend all your starting gold on gems.

People need to remember that the Book has a rule for character wealth by level that is always forgotten.

Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.

So A wizard may use less than 5% for weapons and use the other 20% on protection/other magic items but would spend 660,000 gp leaving 220,000 gp for potions/scrolls/wands/standard gear/coins dont forget that spells will cost as well unless they want to start with minimum they can start with (what wizard would do that?) Also if they wanted to create any spells that also takes into cost. A standard spellbook will not hold all their spells normally even without extra so there is the cost for those. I will say that most wizards will spend around half to 2/3rds of the money on crafting. And since the items value to purchase is not same as what the value is for selling

I would not penalize a wizard besides under the rule that you cant have a GP value more than 880000gp once that player crafts 440000gp in items (worth base 880000gp) he would have to drop the other 440000gp or be breaking the books rules.. he makes the last item then says well thats too much wealth and dropps money on floor and walks away?. That is not what the rules would imply. Crafting magic items is hard to deal with, its easyily broken, but to penalize a player because as a DM/player you fell it is unfair, then either get rid of crafting altogther or play a caster.


STR Ranger wrote:

That's the tactic I believe he's using.

You can charge while mounted.
Pounce lets you full attack while charging.
Sprited Charge means you do triple damage on a charge with a lance.

(Personally our group doesn't allow combining Sprited Charge with pounce, but Calain Heartstrike does 360 HP damage on a Pounce anyway AND makes them save vs Dazed. Usually gets the job done)

Well it can go in very looong debate.For example,on pounce.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Your mount is charging,not you.There are many debates about that one,and many have different opinion thou.Becuase of that you have movement of 300+ in charge.Not even monk can charge that much.

Also in the pounce description it say full attack is at the END of a charge,so i doubt ride-by-attack is possible.

You are making triple damage because of run-up you made,so after first attack you dont have that speed anymore.Only if you tranform into jedi that can hit 5 times in less than a second with lance that is very long weapon.Doubt even jedi could do that.

P.S.I was just wandering,is there any weapon that gives its enchancment bonus to sunder attempts?Becuase someone mentioned earlier that with +7 furious weapon you count +7 for sunder attempts as well.


LazarX wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
.....so by RAW player that reach level 20 in his life,is not able to buy gear that is worth 1 milion+gp becuase it is in RAW?!I mean wth?Are you kidding or what?You cant be serious...lol

One... answering a respondent's point with LOL is pretty damm rude.

Two... WBL is nothing more than a guideline for equipping characters to undertake a campaign with a given difficulty level. You want to give your players more or less... that's your prerogative. But it's easy to munchkin when you're building a character at a given level as oppsoed to having earned gear incrementally through play... The economics of a level rise are going to vary. Going to high level doesn't guarantee wealth, nor protect you from it's loss. WBL assumes that a player has had a string of gains and losses and the figure is what averages out. It also assumes that WBL is not a chunk of change that you go shopping at MagicMart. It respresents the legacy of what you've acquired minus what you've traded or lost.

What was quoted to you is what the table states for a 20th level character, an adventuring character as opposed to a more wealthy character that would have essentially retired from the dungeon-crawling life and more likely would be getting and spending his wealth in other ways. This essentially is a holdover from 3.X.

It is true.Didnt mean it in rude way thou.Writing too many SMS so lol was reflexive.But still yea.Sorry about that one!

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

AlecStorm wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
Heymitch wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Rules don't give limitations for outsider, and maybe Tarrasque has a proper class, but obviously with such CR creatures is not size the problem. Also, no limitation to living creatures. If is not one of those, will be another. And 12 hours is like permanent, for adventure purpose.

Polymorph any object functions like greater polymorph, except that it allows an object to become a creature, or a creature to become an object (and it can be permanent if the two are close enough to one another).

If you change something into a magical beast, like a Tarrasque, it functions like beast shape IV. That means that you're limited to no more than a Large magical beast (such as a Manticore, for example). You can't turn something into a Colossal magical beast. Period.

Nice try, though.

IOW, because of the limitation as greater polymorph, you can't change something into an outsider, period. You can change an outsider into something else, but you can't change anything into an outsider. The spell says what it does and does what it says. It doesn't give limitations for outsiders because it doesn't allow you to turn things into outsiders; that's the limit, that you can't do it at all.

Also, as stated previously, NONE of the polymorph spells actually turn you into a literal/actual creature of the type you become. You gain stat mods to YOUR stats based on the spell and the size of the creature. You gain special abilities that the creature possesses *IF* the spell lists them; if it doesn't, then you don't. The advancing power of the polymorph spells isn't just access to bigger sizes of creatures; it's also to a bigger menu of potential options of the abilities those creatures possess.

You may look like a [monster] and smell like a [monster] and gain SOME of the abilities of a [monster], but the target is still the basis creature that it started as, wearing a [monster] suit. That's the way polymorph works

Ok, let's forgive outsider.

Golem or undead. You have not limitations in moprhing the object of the spell in a "non living". No previous spell to copy, you use monster stats.
Obviously is not the way is meant to be used, but it works.
Remember, this is just an exercise about rules, I don't play in such way.

Sorry, incorrect again.

PAO allows you to turn a creature into a non-living OBJECT. Constructs and undead are non-living, but they are not objects; they are creatures. PAO acts as greater polymorph, which lists precisely which polymorph effects it emulates. If it ain't listed, you cain't do it. PAO also lets you turn things into objects, but non-living creatures aren't objects, so no go.

The spell says what it does and does what it says. It does not do other things that it does not say it does.

Fireball does not create smoke or destroy the oxygen in a room.

Lightning bolt does not magnetize or fuse metal objects together.

PAO does not allow you to polymorph things in any way other than the ways stipulated by the spell.


Leongorance wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

That's the tactic I believe he's using.

You can charge while mounted.
Pounce lets you full attack while charging.
Sprited Charge means you do triple damage on a charge with a lance.

(Personally our group doesn't allow combining Sprited Charge with pounce, but Calain Heartstrike does 360 HP damage on a Pounce anyway AND makes them save vs Dazed. Usually gets the job done)

Well it can go in very looong debate.For example,on pounce.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Your mount is charging,not you.There are many debates about that one,and many have different opinion thou.Becuase of that you have movement of 300+ in charge.Not even monk can charge that much.

Also in the pounce description it say full attack is at the END of a charge,so i doubt ride-by-attack is possible.

You are making triple damage because of run-up you made,so after first attack you dont have that speed anymore.Only if you tranform into jedi that can hit 5 times in less than a second with lance that is very long weapon.Doubt even jedi could do that.

P.S.I was just wandering,is there any weapon that gives its enchancment bonus to sunder attempts?Becuase someone mentioned earlier that with +7 furious weapon you count +7 for sunder attempts as well.

If your mount charge, you do also. If not, you don't charge, don't take move action so you can do all attacks.

As rules state, you can use pounce to make all attacks, you can (sigh) do it with a lance, all of them x3 dmg, but you can't use ride by attack.

Every manouver you do with a weapon uses the weapon's bonus.

What I suggest: give the x3 dmg only for first attack, and don't let ppl using a lance for attack outside of a charge or make multiple attacks.

If you defend from a manouver targeting your weapon apply the enchantment bonus to CMD.


Jason Nelson wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
Heymitch wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
Rules don't give limitations for outsider, and maybe Tarrasque has a proper class, but obviously with such CR creatures is not size the problem. Also, no limitation to living creatures. If is not one of those, will be another. And 12 hours is like permanent, for adventure purpose.

Polymorph any object functions like greater polymorph, except that it allows an object to become a creature, or a creature to become an object (and it can be permanent if the two are close enough to one another).

If you change something into a magical beast, like a Tarrasque, it functions like beast shape IV. That means that you're limited to no more than a Large magical beast (such as a Manticore, for example). You can't turn something into a Colossal magical beast. Period.

Nice try, though.

IOW, because of the limitation as greater polymorph, you can't change something into an outsider, period. You can change an outsider into something else, but you can't change anything into an outsider. The spell says what it does and does what it says. It doesn't give limitations for outsiders because it doesn't allow you to turn things into outsiders; that's the limit, that you can't do it at all.

Also, as stated previously, NONE of the polymorph spells actually turn you into a literal/actual creature of the type you become. You gain stat mods to YOUR stats based on the spell and the size of the creature. You gain special abilities that the creature possesses *IF* the spell lists them; if it doesn't, then you don't. The advancing power of the polymorph spells isn't just access to bigger sizes of creatures; it's also to a bigger menu of potential options of the abilities those creatures possess.

You may look like a [monster] and smell like a [monster] and gain SOME of the abilities of a [monster], but the target is still the basis creature that it started as, wearing a [monster] suit. That's the

...

Got manual in hands. It's a translated version, so includes updates. It states clearly "you can use this spell to transform all kinds of objects and creatures in new forms, without the limitation of turning a living in another living being."

The purpose is clear, but it's not about purpose that people discuss here.
I write this as I wrote previous post to show how discuss builds is proper, trying to bend rules to power play is stupid.


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The Divination Wizard still goes first. You cannot start rage on my turn.

Can any of these barbarians survive one round of spell casting?

Spoiler:

Divination Spec Wizard has an Initiative at 48 or so.

No surprise round since the wizard cannot be surprised.

If there is a surprise round, it is much worse for the barbarian since I get more actions than I need.

Wizard goes first.

Wizard looks at all the auras of your magic items. Wow. This guy has lots of high-level items. Free action with Arcane Sight.

Casts Quickened Greater Dispel Magic(8th)(swift). d20+20 to remove 5 items from both the mount and the barbarian. Note: Foresight school adds a re-roll and I have a sword of luck/warning in hand for the initiative bonus. Most items (ring of spell turning - CL=13) have lower caster levels than me. Dispel Check to lose the Ring of Spell Turning is 11+13=24. 1 use off Rod of Greater Quicken (170k). Roll if needed 3 d20s and get at least a 4 once. 99% or so. Remember, I know the caster level of the items already.

If you are 130' or closer, wizard moves 100' on his phantom steed so you are in his unluck aura -2. (move) If not, move action to hide after Dimension Door if needed. See below.

Casts Dominate Person(7th) - Persistent(regular). DC = 10+5spell+13int= 28 <== you have to save twice at -2 without rage buffs. No superstition. No will save re-rolls. No spell turning.

Please feel free to brag about rage powers since you will not get to use any of them. Anybody want to tell us about another rage power? Gosh, they all sound so good.

Orders for this round: "Do not rage. Smile. Tell your mount: 'Halt! He is my friend!'"

AM BARBARIAN has a will save of +31 while raging. What is his will save without rage? Subtract superstition -13. Subtract rage bonus -4 will saves. Subtract -2 from the unluck aura if the wizard gets within 30 feet. So, a +12 will save when you are not raging? No barbarian would take Iron Will or Improved Iron Will when their saves are so high.

So he would roll, needing a 16(twice) to not lose: 93.75% of the time. Even if the barbarian gets a re-roll somehow, he would still have 75% chance of losing.

Without the unluck aura, 87.75%. If the barbarian has a re-roll, 60% chance of losing.

By the way, the Improved Familiar casts Dimension Door 400' using UMD. Just in case.

Note: There was a feat in 3.5 which allowed barbarians to rage when it is not their turn, but not in pathfinder. You need to go before you get a free action to rage.

The sad part for me is the reason AM BARBARIAN was not wearing a shirt: he gave it to the nice elf with a pointy hat with the rest of his magic items.

Still, I will always remember him: raging without his shirt. So impressive! Bravo!


trurl wrote:

The Divination Wizard still goes first. You cannot start rage on my turn.

Can any of these barbarians survive one round of spell casting?

** spoiler omitted **...

The funny thing about most of the posts about casters destroying AM BARBARIAN is that they are riddled with errors.

Forwarned will give you a init of 30, where are you getting the 18 more that would give you a 48 init.
Arcane sight has a range of 60ft.
Greater Dispel Magic is a 6th level spell, quickened it's 10th.
If you are holding a metamagic rod and a sword you can't cast.
If you do an area dispel, by definition it's no longer a targeted dispel, and area dispels dont affect items.
Foretell takes a standard action to activate.


Look, RAW is what RAW is, but I'm not going to argue with you about it.

You want to toss it out the window so that you can create a character that has several levels more worth of gear than he's suppossed to have? Fine.

The Barbarian has been killing quite a lot of wizards who use crafting rules to break WBL. So, just figure out how much gear you want to have and AM BARBARIAN is allowed to have 20 times that much gear (so as to reflect all the crafting wizards he's killed and all the gear he's taken from them).

DONE.

Or, we can play by the rules.

Your choice.


Actually, he doesn't have an additional -4 to his will save. The Superstition bonus doesn't stack with the +4 Will bonus they normally get. So it would just be the -13 from Superstition down. And that will heavily effect their %'s you gave.

But because AM BARBARIAN had his hair pulled by mean girls when he was a kid, he took Strong Willed for +2 vs Charm/Compulsion

Arcane Sight will give you aura strength and schools (with a roll, but it's safe to assume you'd blow through that).

5 effects, starting at most powerful would mean 1 ring of spell turning is good.

Weapon: CL 15 (200k + MW cos)
Armor: CL 15 (even if it's just +1 Armor of Heavy Fort) (36k+MW cost)
Ring of Spell Turning CL 13 x2 (200k, 100k each)
Scarab of Protection CL 18 (38k)
Cloak of Resistance +5 CL 15 (25k)

He still has plenty of cash to build his belt of awesome, his boots of speed, etc. (Belt is CL 12) Even throw BATTY BAT a ring of ST maybe.

1 ring would survive.

Though the rings do take an action to activate. But with 2 rings he can have 7 hours of coverage which is a fairly hefty chunk of time for the work day. If it was on, it would add another effect (the Spell turning put upon him by the ring in addition to the ring itself)

But let's not worry about that.

On his action he would get a reroll with a +2 (oh, he can now rage) because your orders to Give his Loot he earned by stepping on the corpses of his enemies' is NOT really in the nature of a CN character.

Also, you gave 3 commands, not 1. So assuming it lands, AM BARBARIAN's turn rolls around and realizes he just got mind swizzled. Casting is obvious and he isn't prone to liking any unexplained casting. He can't rage for some reason. Well, that's against his Rage-tastic All Caps nature so BAM of how he rolls and smites CASTYS. Bam. New roll with +2.

But I have doubts it would matter. He charges, no rage, just a charge with his (Currently) MW Lance. He still has his strength belt because it wasn't hit by the dispel. He can output 90% likely about 90 damage (Don't flub the save or die from massive damage, which you should make) and has about a 5% chance to just outright kill you with a critical.

Or he could turn on the ring. His gear is is going to turn back up soon.

Also, you have a rod in hand and a sword. I didn't see Still spell to make that Dispel Magic not need the Somantic components.

That's also not taking into consideration the actions to draw said items. But we can assume I guess you just walk around with them in hand all the time because the above scenerio doesn't take the 'spotting people' into account. AM BARBARIAN can draw his lance as part of the charge action so he doesn't need a feat really for that. I mean, how weird is it to carry a sword all the time for the Init bonus you don't need?

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