Caster-Martial Disparity Battleground - No Crying.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
cp wrote:


Archons - with perfect flight .. just attack and fly up.

This is where we separate the smart barbarians from the stupid targets. After a round or two of this they will simply ready their actions and cleave the silly globes with a power attack. You can't fly away during the interrupt.

Or perhaps the barbarian may suddenly remember they've got missile weapons like that mighty composite strength bow.


Trinam wrote:

If the barbarian can so much as pinpoint your square, he can spell sunder your invisibility, which ignores magically-induced miss chance.

And I am sure that a Barbarian has a way of figuring out at least the square an invisible enemy is in at 20th freaking level.

Anyone else remember that dire bats have blindsense? It's only 40ft, but still!


Andy Ferguson wrote:


I still don't think you can use Gate like Shadowcat is using it.

"pg 184 of CRB wrote:

To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus(DF) component, you have to have the proper materials,

as described by the spell. Unless these components are
elaborate, preparing them is a free action.
For material
components and focuses whose costs are not listed in the
spell description, you can assume that you have them if
you have your spell component pouch.
If the bolded phrase doesn't apply to 10k in rare incense and offerings I don't know what it would apply to.

I would agree. 10K in incence is alot of time spent lighting them up and making the area spell good. That is not something you can do on the fly as a free action. So calling a creature with gate in 1st round no matter what would be a fail. He could still Gate away to another plain. He would live doing that.


You know, I think this thread has been quite enlightening. When an unbuffed Wizard (pretty much the weakest he's going to get) faces a pre-buffed melee'r who is already close enough to charge him during his turn and is specifically designed to negate casters, the melee guy has a solid chance of winning. And really, the fact that this is necessary says more about the relative levels of power between casters and melee than anything else I could.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Divergent wrote:
You know, I think this thread has been quite enlightening. When an unbuffed Wizard (pretty much the weakest he's going to get) faces a pre-buffed melee'r who is already close enough to charge him during his turn and is specifically designed to negate casters, the melee guy has a solid chance of winning. And really, that says more about the relative levels of power between casters and melee than anything else I could.

It's easy to nullify anyone with a build specifically tuned to counter that specific person. However the danger of such narrowly focused builds is fairly self-evident.

Liberty's Edge

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So...have we figured out who has the bigger penis yet?


Divergent wrote:
You know, I think this thread has been quite enlightening.

Cool

Divergent wrote:
When an unbuffed Wizard (pretty much the weakest he's going to get)

No one said the wizard has to be unbuffed, though you are right, its pretty easy for a wizard to be unprepared which makes him pretty weak.

Divergent wrote:
faces a pre-buffed melee'r who is already close enough to charge him during his turn

He activated rage, and has a decent charge radius.

Divergent wrote:
and is specifically designed to negate casters,

He's specifically designed to not suck. That happens to help against casters, but he's solid against non-casters as well.

Divergent wrote:
the melee guy has a solid chance of winning.

Well seeing as you tried to just keep suggesting things until you got something right, without a grasp of the mechanics behind the idea's you were suggesting, it was lost when you started posting.

Divergent wrote:
And really, the fact that this is necessary says more about the relative levels of power between casters and melee than anything else I could.

That a barbarian is stronger in a fight that a wizard?


Xpltvdeleted wrote:
So...have we figured out who has the bigger penis yet?

Depends. The barb is naturally larger, but then the Wizard casts Enlarge Person and the issue gets muddy.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
Divergent wrote:
You know, I think this thread has been quite enlightening.

Cool

Divergent wrote:
When an unbuffed Wizard (pretty much the weakest he's going to get)

No one said the wizard has to be unbuffed, though you are right, its pretty easy for a wizard to be unprepared which makes him pretty weak.

Right, easy to be caught unprepared when you yourself specified that the fight just happens spontaneously. No Wizard in an actual game is going to be caught so unawares, mostly because he isn't on the same plane.

Divergent wrote:
faces a pre-buffed melee'r who is already close enough to charge him during his turn

He activated rage, and has a decent charge radius.

Yeah, and permanent true-seeing cast on him by some friendly NPC, a Dire Bat companion, whatever else he feels like he needs. . .

Divergent wrote:
and is specifically designed to negate casters,

He's specifically designed to not suck. That happens to help against casters, but he's solid against non-casters as well.

No, I'm seeing a pretty definitive thing where all his rage powers and most of his feats seem to have been spent on entirely anti-caster powers.

Divergent wrote:
the melee guy has a solid chance of winning.

Well seeing as you tried to just keep suggesting things until you got something right, without a grasp of the mechanics behind the idea's you were suggesting, it was lost when you started posting.

Oh, a personal attack, very mature. The thing is, the Wizard can do almost everything I posted (I'd still debate Gate not working during Time Stop) and more. And that's why he's so powerful, even comparative to the barb, because he can just up and decide to do something else if what he is doing isn't working. The Barb? Nope, hit it again, hope it doesn't have something with a higher CMD or DC or HP than you.

Divergent wrote:
And really, the fact that this is necessary says more about the relative levels of power between casters and melee than anything else I could.
That a barbarian is stronger in a fight that a wizard?

Nice try.


Leongorance wrote:


I think someone said before best bet for barbarians is heavy fortification on armor,so no resistance.

One of few ways that would go for wizards.Time stop+4 empowered delayed blast fireballs.If he survives.On next round use it again and thats it.

But still thats just theory,as i dont see why would wizard use all spell slots for emp.dely.blast fireball.

Though i am still on barbarians,monks side vs wizard.Paladins and rangers would have some chance maybe.While fighter would most probably die.Though fighter would most probably kill those classes i mentioned.Balance.I agree with Lockgo completely on this point.

I think it's been pointed out that the barbarian has energy resistances innately.


As a divination specialist wizard, I control space/time and sandwiches. Is the barbarian stronger than I am smart? I doubt it. In fact, it would be easy to defeat the barbarian with low-level magic. At 20th level, a wizard would have four spell's perfected as the feat. Let's just pick two: Dimension Door and Fireball. During the first round, the wizard casts a quickened DD(1200ft) and maximized fireball (range 1200ft) from 600ft a way. At that point, the contingent Improved Invisibility goes off. Note: those are 3rd/4th level spells which I have 7~8 a piece. Every round, I would cast fireball first and then dimension door so the range would be reset to 600~800ft during the wizard's turn and moving to where the fireballs were launched would be pointless. If the barbarian cannot figure out where I am which is likely 600~800 ft away in a random direction and invisible ( +100? stealth check vs perception skill of +30?/blindsense 120'?), I would not even need to DD. Just cast fireballs. Lots and lots of fireballs. Heck, I would only need one magic item: a wand of fireballs. No rings of spell turning, no ride checks, and no spell sundering will be needed for this fight. Poor dead bat. Once the bat is dead, how hard is it to kill a pedestrian? If the barbarian has an item with flight, he is now moving just as fast as me so he never closes the distance.

All of you barbarian wizard-haters, can you explain how he even gets away or does a point of damage? Or explain why I would need to use any spells higher than level 4? (Except: the one contingency spell.)

No wizard wastes high-level magic for such a simpleton. After all, Timestop/Maze/Summoning/trickery might be needed in case a challenge crops up.


Barbarian can absorb energy and spell damage. So, 2 fireball will give temporary hp, 1 is absorbed and he can strike it back, 1 could be half dmg before saving throw. From 17h level he could do this stuff every round. Plus energy resistance. So 4 spells maybe will give him more Hp and an energy based attack.
With an hit he can force his target to make a saving throw 10+BAB or be stunned (16th level talent). The chance for a 20th level caster with 18 con and +5 enanch bonus on saving throws is 50%. Not many caster have 18 con...

This is just an example. The strenght of casters is not damage dealing or PC killing. They have a very wide variety of options.
There's always a class or situation that can put you in trouble. This is called experience, and you character should benefit from it.
Balance is not having all classes of equal power, but when you need all classes to run a decent adventure.


trurl wrote:
As a divination specialist wizard, I control space/time and sandwiches.

The fact that your example lacked sandwhiches or wenching means it already failed. My wizard still wins yours just blew a bunch of spells to die...dibs on your spellbook.


TarkXT wrote:
My wizard still wins yours just blew a bunch of spells to die...dibs on your spellbook.

Any new sandwich recipes in it?


SILLY CASTY. SPELL PERFECTION AM ONE TIME ONLY FEAT. NOT LIKE EXTRA RAGE POWER, BEST FEAT IN GAME. AM SPECIAL: CAN TAKE MULTIPLE TIMES. SPELL PERFECTION AM LACKING TEXT REQUIRED TO DO THAT.

BARBARIAN BELIEVE CASTY AM NEEDING NEW PLAN.

ALSO AM FORGETTING BARBARIAN INNATE FIRE RESISTANCE AND PART WHERE BARBARIAN CAN OPT TO FAIL FIRST SAVE TO EATER OF MAGIC THE OTHER. WHICH AM TOTALLY METAL.

THUS AM COMPLETELY NEGATING FIREBALL. ACTUALLY TASTE OK, GIVE EXTRA HPS TOO. BARBARIAN DO THIS ALL DAY!

BARBARIAN NOT HAVE 7 WIS, AM KNOWING DRAGONS NOT LIKELY TO HELP SQUISHY CASTY VERSUS RANDOM BARBARIAN FROM SKY. SPELL SUNDER AM LIKELY TO WORK WITH THAT. PARTICULARLY WITH SEEING MAGICAL EFFECT ON THEM WITH ARCANE VIEWY SPELL THINGY. BARBARIAN BORN AT NIGHT, BUT NOT LAST NIGHT.

...AS FOR EARLIER COMMENTS, BARBARIAN ONLY NOTE THAT SOMEONE SAY THERE BE ONE WIZARD AND ANOTHER ORACLE AND ANOTHER WIZARD TO GET BIG SHINEY DRAGONS IN FIRST PLACE. BARBARIAN AM GLAD TO BRING POSSE ALONG. EVER SEE SPELL GET SUNDERED FROM STUPIDHUGE DISTANCE AWAY?

AM MORE EVIDENCE OF BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.


trurl wrote:

As a divination specialist wizard, I control space/time and sandwiches. Is the barbarian stronger than I am smart? I doubt it. In fact, it would be easy to defeat the barbarian with low-level magic. At 20th level, a wizard would have four spell's perfected as the feat. Let's just pick two: Dimension Door and Fireball. During the first round, the wizard casts a quickened DD(1200ft) and maximized fireball (range 1200ft) from 600ft a way. At that point, the contingent Improved Invisibility goes off. Note: those are 3rd/4th level spells which I have 7~8 a piece. Every round, I would cast fireball first and then dimension door so the range would be reset to 600~800ft during the wizard's turn and moving to where the fireballs were launched would be pointless. If the barbarian cannot figure out where I am which is likely 600~800 ft away in a random direction and invisible ( +100? stealth check vs perception skill of +30?/blindsense 120'?), I would not even need to DD. Just cast fireballs. Lots and lots of fireballs. Heck, I would only need one magic item: a wand of fireballs. No rings of spell turning, no ride checks, and no spell sundering will be needed for this fight. Poor dead bat. Once the bat is dead, how hard is it to kill a pedestrian? If the barbarian has an item with flight, he is now moving just as fast as me so he never closes the distance.

All of you barbarian wizard-haters, can you explain how he even gets away or does a point of damage? Or explain why I would need to use any spells higher than level 4? (Except: the one contingency spell.)

No wizard wastes high-level magic for such a simpleton. After all, Timestop/Maze/Summoning/trickery might be needed in case a challenge crops up.

You dimension door. Your turn ends. Now its the barbarians. DD states that your turn ends after you DD.

Whats your perception score? Can you roll a perception DC of 60 to see the barbarian from that far away. DC is 0 +1/10 ft of distance (600ft = DC 60). Does not really matter as AoE don't require sight, but its important to consider that.

Max fireball is 60 damage. Half it because the barbarian makes his save (+29 to reflex saves against spells). So its 30, barbarian has Fire resistance of 6, so subtract 6. You just did 24 pts of damage to a barbarian that has >400 HP. You die well before the barbarian. Although with this strategy the Bat may die before him.

He ignores the improved invisibility. Negated by a gem of seeing or a permanent see invisibility spell. Come on now....we are freaking lvl 20's here. Invisibility is on effective in the early to mid game. By late game everyone has a way to bypass it.

The Dire Bat may die if he tried to chase

Edit: Holy ****** Eater of magic is so much better than I thought it was. You choose to fail the first save, make the second, and are NOT EFFECTED by the spell (its freaking evasion with temp HP). You take no damage when you save against the fireball and gain 6-20 temp HP depending on how he casts it.


Uh, I still have all spells for levels 5,6,7,8 and 9.

The barbarian starts the round fireballed or lightning bolted from 600 to 800 ft away. At the start of his turn, he can ...... I fail to see how he is stabbing me at all. Or getting closer than 300 ft. Or even flying in the correct direction to get closer. Or... How was it that he stunned me again at 600'? Note: he cannot use the fireball's trail to figure out where I am. It he did use the trail, it would take 2 rounds of travel to get to charge range if I did not move.

Is he completely immune to every spell? Is the bat? If the bat dies, he is stuck with running or flying at 60' with no blindsense.

So he gets some temp hit points? That allows him to win how. If he starts rage cycling, I will just exhaust him with two rays of exhaustion between cycles. No more rage.

By the way, the sandwich is roast bat. It tastes like victory. : )


On a completely unrelated note about the AM FIGHTER project, here's where I'm at:

-We know that they have 1 level of oracle, which gives them either Wind Sight from the wind mystery or Battlefield Clarity from Battle. This would be either a 'once/day redo save at a +4' (useful), or the ability to completely negate the first 100 feet of distance. I'm trending towards the latter considering that these guys are built to have absurd range.

I also ran some preliminary perception numbers, and here's what I got.

If we assume the fightys are half-elves (Which is an okay assumption, since Humans don't give THEM much), they get a racial of +2, and an automatic skill focus, at this point a +6. Add in the +23 from leveling ranks, and the +10 competence item. A +1 from Wisdom, which grows to +4 after headband (I imagine headband of Wis and a 12 wis on AM FIGHTER). Also, a trait that gives +1 trait bonuses to perception. This is a total of +46 perception. They ignore the first 100 feet of terrain for perception purposes with the Wind Sight mystery, meaning when taking 10 they can see approx. 660 feet. (56 on the check). There have to be some other bonuses I'm missing here.

This is just over 2 range increments for them, meaning they can also comfortably spell sunder anything within it. I'm still working on a good way to give them sight beyond sight for when they need it. Anyone know of any items/abilities that let you see and hear through the eyes of your allies? It may be worth investing in.


Divergent wrote:
You know, I think this thread has been quite enlightening. When an unbuffed Wizard (pretty much the weakest he's going to get) faces a pre-buffed melee'r who is already close enough to charge him during his turn and is specifically designed to negate casters, the melee guy has a solid chance of winning. And really, the fact that this is necessary says more about the relative levels of power between casters and melee than anything else I could.

No one said you could go unbuffed. I would have let you have any permanency spells, contingencies, 1hr/lvl spells. What you could not do is start with a bunch of 10min/lvl and 1min/lvl spells. That's what Time stop is for.

Also. The barbarian is not pre-buffed other than an odd permanancy spell he paid for. Rage is not a buff that takes time to cast, it's a free action.

Yes. He is designed to kill casters. Why I ask? Because everything past lvl 10 in the Beastiary has some casting abilities. Hes not designed to kill casters, hes designed to kill everything at high lvls (balors, dragons, planatars, etc). This by the way, is not a build designed for this thread. This is the standard barbarian build as of APG and UC.


Mage can negate true vision with mind blank, you need blind vision or similar.
Since high level barbarian can absorb 1 spell / round, 2 font of energy dmg / round sure fireball is not the way to kill a barbarian.

Of all caster that posted here, none could kill this barbarian (that, in my opinion, should be fixed).

Now i shift, and i became a caster. I don't think about time stop and fireball. This is so childlike. I think about necromancy. Clone, illusionary terrain, shadows hidden there. No spell resistance, no direct damage from me, no reflection or absorption. Shadows attack during charge, no armor bonus, no dex bonus. I don't know how many GM writes here, but this role needs a better knowledge of all classes and situation.

At high level, preparation is all. To not being killed you must be very cunning.


[QUOTE}
You dimension door. Your turn ends.

Not anymore. Dimensional Feat from UC allows full actions after DD. After the first round, I would cast fireball and then DD as a free action.

Perception checks would not be needed unless the barbarian started hiding or had concealment. After all, I knew where he was. Is he hiding? Running away? Please let me know so I can laugh.

Could you stand on a football field(360ft) in one endzone and see the bat at the other endzone? Would it help if the bat was burning?

All of the plans to ignore invisibility have ranges. At 600~800', there is nothing.


BARBARIAN NOTE CASTY PLAN AM STILL RELIANT UPON TAKING SPELL PERFECTION MULTIPLE TIMES. AM UNPOSSIBLE.

ALSO, BARBARIAN BET AM ABLE TO RUN CASTY OUT OF INVISIBILITY. AM ONLY LAST 20 ROUNDS, AND BARBARIAN ALREADY SAY CAN DO THIS ALL DAY.


trurl wrote:

Uh, I still have all spells for levels 5,6,7,8 and 9.

The barbarian starts the round fireballed or lightning bolted from 600 to 800 ft away. At the start of his turn, he can ...... I fail to see how he is stabbing me at all. Or getting closer than 300 ft. Or even flying in the correct direction to get closer. Or... How was it that he stunned me again at 600'? Note: he cannot use the fireball's trail to figure out where I am. It he did use the trail, it would take 2 rounds of travel to get to charge range if I did not move.

Is he completely immune to every spell? Is the bat? If the bat dies, he is stuck with running or flying at 60' with no blindsense.

So he gets some temp hit points? That allows him to win how. If he starts rage cycling, I will just exhaust him with two rays of exhaustion between cycles. No more rage.

By the way, the sandwich is roast bat. It tastes like victory. : )

Seems that you don't know the power "eater of magic". Even if you bypass this (i don't figure how, coz there's also renewed vitality) barbarian can use spell sunder before cycling. Ray of exaustion can give you just some rounds, that you must spend using the ray. Also, if a barbarian has a level of oracle he is completely immune to fatigue.


trurl wrote:


All of the plans to ignore invisibility have ranges. At 600~800', there is nothing.

Technically, at 600' range, the DC to spot a creature in plain sight is 60, so neither can see each other. Not that it's a rule I use or recommend, but it is there by RAW.


trurl wrote:

Uh, I still have all spells for levels 5,6,7,8 and 9.

The barbarian starts the round fireballed or lightning bolted from 600 to 800 ft away. At the start of his turn, he can ...... I fail to see how he is stabbing me at all. Or getting closer than 300 ft. Or even flying in the correct direction to get closer. Or... How was it that he stunned me again at 600'? Note: he cannot use the fireball's trail to figure out where I am. It he did use the trail, it would take 2 rounds of travel to get to charge range if I did not move.

No lightning bolt or fireball from that distance. You do not have line of sight. You can not see where you are placing the fireball because it is beyond your perception max distance. Perception modifiers of +1/10 ft includes objects, so beyond your max perception you can not see anything. Wow, that rule is tough. You can not lightning bolt him for the same reason. The bright side is...he can't see you either.

trurl wrote:
Is he completely immune to every spell? Is the bat? If the bat dies, he is stuck with running or flying at 60' with no blindsense.

Only if he makes the save.

The bat: Nope. It does have a ring of spell turning though and he has mounted combat. So fireballs are a great way to kill the bat. Its a great opening strategy. Can you kill the bat in 1 Maximized fireball? Lets see...DC say ~31 (Maxed Int). Yeah it probably dies right there. Does AM BARBARIAN have feather fall?

trurl wrote:

I will just exhaust him with two rays of exhaustion between cycles. No more rage.

Not a bad strategy although by holding your actions, the barbarian will probably not need to rage cycle as he can just hit you in the mouth while you stand around. I see you hit him twice with it to negate his heart of fields. That's some good thinking.


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Mr. Fishy's got this.

Rogue Lvl 5 Stole your spell book and ordered a hit on you the day you enroll in mage college.

Fights over you lose.


Mr.Fishy wrote:

Mr. Fishy's got this.

Rogue Lvl 5 Stole your spell book and ordered a hit on you the day you enroll in mage college.

Fights over you lose.

AM MORE EVIDENCE OF THE ROGUE NOT-ROGUE DESTRUCITY.


trurl wrote:

Perception checks would not be needed unless the barbarian started hiding or had concealment. After all, I knew where he was. Is he hiding? Running away? Please let me know so I can laugh.

Could you stand on a football field(360ft) in one endzone and see the bat at the other endzone? Would it help if the bat was burning?

All of the plans to ignore invisibility have ranges. At 600~800', there is nothing.

Perception rules are fairly straight forward. DC to see a visible creature or object is 0. This is why we do not roll it most of the time. However, this DC goes up +1/10 ft of distance. That means that you have a max distance that you can see that is equal to your max perception score x 10ft. Period. Thems the rules. At long range combat I sure do make my players roll a perception to see at what range combat begins.


Now i post as a caster :) I'd like to see the solution that you propose as a melee.
I use a necromancer. I'm invisible, with mind blank, flying. I use sphere of invisibility and i take total cover (a corner, a tree...) then i attack the barbarian in some way (not important, just to test his powers). Behind the total cover i can hide six normal shadows. I can speed them, but don't care now. If barbarian charge me (2 squares behind the cover) he trigger attack from the shadows, no armor bonus, no dex bonus, -2 charge, - 2 rage. Easy to hit. If all hits there's and average 21 dmg to strenght. My shadows can also take they preparred action. Another 21 dmg to strengt.

This is more creative than the usual direct spell dmg :)


The wizard would have a low 30 stealth and adds +20 for invisibility. The chance to see the wizard at range 600' is nil.

After the bat is dead, how fast is the barbarian moving? Note: straight up requires flight skill checks and is half speed. At that point, it would not even be necessary to be invisible since the barbarian can never close the distance.


trurl wrote:

I will just exhaust him with two rays of exhaustion between cycles. No more rage.

Not a bad strategy although by holding your actions, the barbarian will probably not need to rage cycle as he can just hit you in the mouth while you stand around. I see you hit him twice with it to negate his heart of fields. That's some good thinking.

"Eater of magic". No ray of exaustion. "Spell sunder" if you don't want to be fatigued.


Why doesn't AB have Greater Ferocious Mount?


Mr.Fishy wrote:

Mr. Fishy's got this.

Rogue Lvl 5 Stole your spell book and ordered a hit on you the day you enroll in mage college.

Fights over you lose.

The buttface! Now I'll have to buy a legitimate spellbook and a cookbook!

Good thing the magic mouth spell on the book has been screaming that its been stolen this whole time....

ROGUE: 'allo there guv. Moight I hock this 'ere book at this 'ere foine shop?

BOOK: I AM INSTRUCTED TO YELL AT THE TOP OF MY MAGICAL LUNGS THAT I HAVE BEEN STOLEN FROM SIR SANDWHICHIFICUS THE BOLOGNA MAGE! PLEASE RETURN ME TO 23451 ALCHEMY LANE! I FIT THROUGH THE MAIL SLOT!

Shopekeep: Say, this wasn't stolen was it?

Rogue: Wot makes you say dat? Am I not an honest person?


AlecStorm wrote:

Now i post as a caster :) I'd like to see the solution that you propose as a melee.

I use a necromancer. I'm invisible, with mind blank, flying. I use sphere of invisibility and i take total cover (a corner, a tree...) then i attack the barbarian in some way (not important, just to test his powers). Behind the total cover i can hide six normal shadows. I can speed them, but don't care now. If barbarian charge me (2 squares behind the cover) he trigger attack from the shadows, no armor bonus, no dex bonus, -2 charge, - 2 rage. Easy to hit. If all hits there's and average 21 dmg to strenght. My shadows can also take they preparred action. Another 21 dmg to strengt.

This is more creative than the usual direct spell dmg :)

AM has Come and Get Me, so he gets to swing at the shadows first, he kills them.


trurl wrote:

The wizard would have a low 30 stealth and adds +20 for invisibility. The chance to see the wizard at range 600' is nil.

After the bat is dead, how fast is the barbarian moving? Note: straight up requires flight skill checks and is half speed. At that point, it would not even be necessary to be invisible since the barbarian can never close the distance.

BARBARIAN ALREADY COVER THIS. AM NOT ABLE TO SEE BARBARIAN FROM 600 FEET AWAY DUE TO PERCEPTION RULES. AM NOT ABLE TO TAKE SPELL PERFECTION ON MULTIPLE SPELLS. AND FOR THAT MATTER, AM STRONG POSSIBILITY BATTY BAT AM STILL WEARING RING OF FRIEND SHIELD BARBARIAN GOT FOR BATTY BAT BIRTHDAY.

CLEARLY, CASTY AM LOST IN OWN WORLD INDEPENDENT FROM RAW.


trurl wrote:

The wizard would have a low 30 stealth and adds +20 for invisibility. The chance to see the wizard at range 600' is nil.

After the bat is dead, how fast is the barbarian moving? Note: straight up requires flight skill checks and is half speed. At that point, it would not even be necessary to be invisible since the barbarian can never close the distance.

You didn't realized that you can't hit a high level barbarian with spells, nor energy dmg. Sure, you can avoid him, but you can't kill him with your strategy.

Every high level character can teleport or fly. Since caster can use mind blank truevision doesn't help, but with gear or archetype you can resolve this.
Better if you change tactic.

And what about a druid casting in animal form (a little bird, for example) that you can't recognize even if you can see? How can a character recognize such druid, even if he has rank in spellcraft?


AlecStorm wrote:

Now i post as a caster :) I'd like to see the solution that you propose as a melee.

I use a necromancer. I'm invisible, with mind blank, flying. I use sphere of invisibility and i take total cover (a corner, a tree...) then i attack the barbarian in some way (not important, just to test his powers). Behind the total cover i can hide six normal shadows. I can speed them, but don't care now. If barbarian charge me (2 squares behind the cover) he trigger attack from the shadows, no armor bonus, no dex bonus, -2 charge, - 2 rage. Easy to hit. If all hits there's and average 21 dmg to strenght. My shadows can also take they preparred action. Another 21 dmg to strengt.

This is more creative than the usual direct spell dmg :)

BARBARIAN AM NOT SEEING HOW BARBARIAN AM DENIED DEXTERITY BONUS. AM CLEARLY READY FOR BATTLE, AND HAVE ACTED SINCE BARBARIAN AM CHARGING.

ALSO IT SEEM CASTY AM FORGETTING BARBARIAN +13 BONUS TO TOUCH AC FOR BEING BARBARIAN. AM NOT NEARLY AS EASY TO LAND TOUCH ON BARBARIAN AS CASTY THINKING. BARBARIAN AM HARDCORE.


AlecStorm wrote:

Now i post as a caster :) I'd like to see the solution that you propose as a melee.

I use a necromancer. I'm invisible, with mind blank, flying. I use sphere of invisibility and i take total cover (a corner, a tree...) then i attack the barbarian in some way (not important, just to test his powers). Behind the total cover i can hide six normal shadows. I can speed them, but don't care now. If barbarian charge me (2 squares behind the cover) he trigger attack from the shadows, no armor bonus, no dex bonus, -2 charge, - 2 rage. Easy to hit. If all hits there's and average 21 dmg to strenght. My shadows can also take they preparred action. Another 21 dmg to strengt.

This is more creative than the usual direct spell dmg :)

Lets see....Barbarians touch AC would be.

10 Base
5 Dex (why would I loose my Dex...I am not flat-footed here)
5 Deflection bonus
13 Superstition (Ghost rager gives you superstition bonus to touch AC)
-2 charge
-2 rage

Shadow Hit bonus = +4
Total Touch AC: 29...you miss except on a 20
Total touch AC - Dex (for some reason): 24....you miss except on a 20


Andy Ferguson wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:

Now i post as a caster :) I'd like to see the solution that you propose as a melee.

I use a necromancer. I'm invisible, with mind blank, flying. I use sphere of invisibility and i take total cover (a corner, a tree...) then i attack the barbarian in some way (not important, just to test his powers). Behind the total cover i can hide six normal shadows. I can speed them, but don't care now. If barbarian charge me (2 squares behind the cover) he trigger attack from the shadows, no armor bonus, no dex bonus, -2 charge, - 2 rage. Easy to hit. If all hits there's and average 21 dmg to strenght. My shadows can also take they preparred action. Another 21 dmg to strengt.

This is more creative than the usual direct spell dmg :)

AM has Come and Get Me, so he gets to swing at the shadows first, he kills them.

LOL!!!!! They all die!!!! He has ghost rager so he can hit incorporeal for normal damage. Come and Get Me interupts so they get killed befor they hit him.

LOL!!!!


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TarkXT wrote:

Good thing the magic mouth spell on the book has been screaming that its been stolen this whole time....

ROGUE: 'allo there guv. Moight I hock this 'ere book at this 'ere foine shop?

BOOK: I AM INSTRUCTED TO YELL AT THE TOP OF MY MAGICAL LUNGS THAT I HAVE BEEN STOLEN FROM SIR SANDWHICHIFICUS THE BOLOGNA MAGE! PLEASE RETURN ME TO 23451 ALCHEMY LANE! I FIT THROUGH THE MAIL SLOT!

Shopekeep: Say, this wasn't stolen was it?

Rogue: Wot makes you say dat? Am I not an honest person?

Ahh a worthy opponent.

Rogue rolls Bluff:Seriously Sir Sandwhichificus? And what in the Nine is a "mage". It's a novelty item. A "talking spell book" If you rip out a page it screams for help. It you want I can get you a lot more of these.


AlecStorm wrote:
And what about a druid casting in animal form (a little bird, for example) that you can't recognize even if you can see? How can a character recognize such druid, even if he has rank in spellcraft?

BARBARIAN GENERALLY NOT HURT DRUIDS. BARBARIAN AND DRUIDS AM HAVING AGREEMENT. DRUIDS AM STAYING OUT OF BARBARIAN WAY, BARBARIAN AM STAYING OUT OF DRUID WAY. IF DRUID DECIDE TO START SOMETHING WITH BARBARIAN, AM REAL THO.

DRUID AM AWAKENING BATTY BAT. BARBARIAN HAVE LONG MEMORY.


AlecStorm wrote:
And what about a druid casting in animal form (a little bird, for example) that you can't recognize even if you can see? How can a character recognize such druid, even if he has rank in spellcraft?

If you see a creature casting a spell, you know it is casting a spell. This is true even for spells with no components. James Jacobs (I think, may have been Jason) stated this a while back. The only way to hide casting a spell is through some bard archetype in the APG.


Lab_Rat wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:

Now i post as a caster :) I'd like to see the solution that you propose as a melee.

I use a necromancer. I'm invisible, with mind blank, flying. I use sphere of invisibility and i take total cover (a corner, a tree...) then i attack the barbarian in some way (not important, just to test his powers). Behind the total cover i can hide six normal shadows. I can speed them, but don't care now. If barbarian charge me (2 squares behind the cover) he trigger attack from the shadows, no armor bonus, no dex bonus, -2 charge, - 2 rage. Easy to hit. If all hits there's and average 21 dmg to strenght. My shadows can also take they preparred action. Another 21 dmg to strengt.

This is more creative than the usual direct spell dmg :)

Lets see....Barbarians touch AC would be.

10 Base
5 Dex (why would I loose my Dex...I am not flat-footed here)
5 Deflection bonus
13 Superstition (Ghost rager gives you superstition bonus to touch AC)
-2 charge
-2 rage

Shadow Hit bonus = +4
Total Touch AC: 29...you miss except on a 20
Total touch AC - Dex (for some reason): 24....you miss except on a 20

A running character loose his dex bonus, but this is not important. You resolved the problem, but if you are not a barbarian is more difficult.

More difficult. The necromancer use planar binding and summon a marilith. He can buff her from invisibility. Or summon a creature every round.


stringburka wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
And what about a druid casting in animal form (a little bird, for example) that you can't recognize even if you can see? How can a character recognize such druid, even if he has rank in spellcraft?
If you see a creature casting a spell, you know it is casting a spell. This is true even for spells with no components. James Jacobs (I think, may have been Jason) stated this a while back. The only way to hide casting a spell is through some bard archetype in the APG.

No rules states that. By the way, how can you notice a little animal that maybe his togheter his similar (es, a sparrow) that are making similar sounds?


Mr.Fishy wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

Good thing the magic mouth spell on the book has been screaming that its been stolen this whole time....

ROGUE: 'allo there guv. Moight I hock this 'ere book at this 'ere foine shop?

BOOK: I AM INSTRUCTED TO YELL AT THE TOP OF MY MAGICAL LUNGS THAT I HAVE BEEN STOLEN FROM SIR SANDWHICHIFICUS THE BOLOGNA MAGE! PLEASE RETURN ME TO 23451 ALCHEMY LANE! I FIT THROUGH THE MAIL SLOT!

Shopekeep: Say, this wasn't stolen was it?

Rogue: Wot makes you say dat? Am I not an honest person?

Ahh a worthy opponent.

Rogue rolls Bluff:Seriously Sir Sandwhichificus? And what in the Nine is a "mage". It's a novelty item. A "talking spell book" If you rip out a page it screams for help. It you want I can get you a lot more of these.

Wizard: "Damn and blast! How can I make the legendary 70ft long all american 99 cheese submarine for the kings ball without my book!" *opens secret chest* "Good thing I keep a spare about now let's see...

*replaces spellbook chest goes back to plane*
*casts scrying*
*casts teleport*

"UNHAND MY BOOK THIS INSTANT OR I WILL BE MOST CROSS!"


AlecStorm wrote:

A running character loose his dex bonus, but this is not important. You resolved the problem, but if you are not a barbarian is more difficult.

More difficult. The necromancer use planar binding and summon a marilith. He can buff her from invisibility. Or summon a creature every round.

1) Charging is not running.

2) Kill Marilith in one round. Charging Barbarian's attack bonus versus a Marilith is (20+17 str+1 competence+6 reckless assault-6 Power Attack+6 Witch Hunter+2 charging+1 haste) 47. I might be missing some. That leads to an iterative of 47/47/42/37/32. Marilith's AC is 32. Barbarian's damage is... I'm not going to calculate it, but 2 hits is easily enough to chew through 264 HP if the creature has SLA's. Now the equation's been simplified to being invisible, and we assume mind blanked. Once more, all we need to do is so much as get an idea of the square.

And we have a dire bat.

EDIT: Yeah, I kind of missed any weapon enchantments at all. Add 7 to all those numbers.


TarkXT wrote:
Mr.Fishy wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

Good thing the magic mouth spell on the book has been screaming that its been stolen this whole time....

ROGUE: 'allo there guv. Moight I hock this 'ere book at this 'ere foine shop?

BOOK: I AM INSTRUCTED TO YELL AT THE TOP OF MY MAGICAL LUNGS THAT I HAVE BEEN STOLEN FROM SIR SANDWHICHIFICUS THE BOLOGNA MAGE! PLEASE RETURN ME TO 23451 ALCHEMY LANE! I FIT THROUGH THE MAIL SLOT!

Shopekeep: Say, this wasn't stolen was it?

Rogue: Wot makes you say dat? Am I not an honest person?

Ahh a worthy opponent.

Rogue rolls Bluff:Seriously Sir Sandwhichificus? And what in the Nine is a "mage". It's a novelty item. A "talking spell book" If you rip out a page it screams for help. It you want I can get you a lot more of these.

Wizard: "Damn and blast! How can I make the legendary 70ft long all american 99 cheese submarine for the kings ball without my book!" *opens secret chest* "Good thing I keep a spare about now let's see...

*replaces spellbook chest goes back to plane*
*casts scrying*
*casts teleport*

"UNHAND MY BOOK THIS INSTANT OR I WILL BE MOST CROSS!"

How are you scrying him? You have no connection and no knowledge of him.


AlecStorm wrote:
stringburka wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
And what about a druid casting in animal form (a little bird, for example) that you can't recognize even if you can see? How can a character recognize such druid, even if he has rank in spellcraft?
If you see a creature casting a spell, you know it is casting a spell. This is true even for spells with no components. James Jacobs (I think, may have been Jason) stated this a while back. The only way to hide casting a spell is through some bard archetype in the APG.
No rules states that. By the way, how can you notice a little animal that maybe his togheter his similar (es, a sparrow) that are making similar sounds?

Yes, they do indirectly. I originally had your stance, but Jason Buhlman commented it here:

Linky

A dog seeing a hummingbird cast a still, silent spell from 100 feet away (provided it's not beyond his range of sight) knows that the hummingbird is casting a spell. If the dog has a rank in spellcraft, he can learn which.

EDIT: Fixed an error.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Mr.Fishy wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

Good thing the magic mouth spell on the book has been screaming that its been stolen this whole time....

ROGUE: 'allo there guv. Moight I hock this 'ere book at this 'ere foine shop?

BOOK: I AM INSTRUCTED TO YELL AT THE TOP OF MY MAGICAL LUNGS THAT I HAVE BEEN STOLEN FROM SIR SANDWHICHIFICUS THE BOLOGNA MAGE! PLEASE RETURN ME TO 23451 ALCHEMY LANE! I FIT THROUGH THE MAIL SLOT!

Shopekeep: Say, this wasn't stolen was it?

Rogue: Wot makes you say dat? Am I not an honest person?

Ahh a worthy opponent.

Rogue rolls Bluff:Seriously Sir Sandwhichificus? And what in the Nine is a "mage". It's a novelty item. A "talking spell book" If you rip out a page it screams for help. It you want I can get you a lot more of these.

Wizard: "Damn and blast! How can I make the legendary 70ft long all american 99 cheese submarine for the kings ball without my book!" *opens secret chest* "Good thing I keep a spare about now let's see...

*replaces spellbook chest goes back to plane*
*casts scrying*
*casts teleport*

"UNHAND MY BOOK THIS INSTANT OR I WILL BE MOST CROSS!"

How are you scrying him? You have no connection and no knowledge of him.

Nooooooo, but the shrunken homunculi sleeping inside the book can be scried on. :)

Heck the whole book cover could be a permanent animated object.

Wizards are fun.


With the barbarian save bonuses being as high as worked out here a ring of evasion seems like it would help them a lot.

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