Leongorance's page

Just play a human or dwarf fighter with Ironhide. That opens you up to Improved Natural Armor. That's an additional +9 natural armor in 20 levels.

Stack with above builds for some serious crazy.

EDIT: Ninja'd apparently.

Ye made it already,but something else in your post caught my eye.Is 9 maximum you can get from that feat?So you basically cant take it on every level even with fighter?

The lance rules don't make any sense anyway, the damage from a lance charge is done because of the speed of the mount, not the strength of the rider. How can you power attack with a weapon that's braced against your shoulder?

+1

Not even to talk about possibility to pounce with lance.So you can charge and hit 5 times,every attack with triple damage.Thou i am not sure if that is possible as it would be totally out of mind:)

It's actually a max dex +9, mithril full plate has a higher max dex than a suit of chainmail. That character would make a great wall, if you threw in a level of paladin, you could also add your charisma to your AC against that target, but you would need a 22 charisma at least, because it's deflection.

Yea but its pretty hard to get to 38 dex,22 charisma,and still have some good strength and okay constitution.Would be great wall yeah,but problem is that almost everyone will ignore it as he wont have good hit and dmg due to lack of feats which he used for improving AC.Thou he can dump some AC feats and take focus,greeater focus,PA,spec and greater spec for example.He will still have very very high AC and descent hit+dmg.Could be nice one,yeah.

If it is possible to do like Kais86 said and make that kind of armor,than you can do somethin like this,with dex maxed to 13 and using two weqapons insted of shield + weapon.

Fighter,dwarf 20

10 base
27(+5 armor=14,and 13 dex(8base+5 armor spec))
5 ring
5 amulet
1 dodge
1 trait
1 ioun stone
1(boots of haste)
1 two weapon defense
1 iron hide
6 combat expertise
17 improved natural armor
5 defending weapon
4 fighting defensively

Total of 85

With shield would go around 95-100 but as you said,no shield:)That would be very useless character ofc,as all feats are used for AC improving.Maybe i even forgot something,not sure,was writing in hurry.

You know I want to mention the although a barbarian can sunder a prismatic sphere a monk can jump though it. I mean all the damage effects are reflex saves monks have improved evasion and real high reflex save. The next bit is poison monk are immune to poison. The next is a fort save for flesh to stone that might be hard but a level 17 monk should be able to do it. The rest are will saves wisdom is a monk primary stat and monks have saves coming out there ears. I think that a monk has at least a 70-90 percent chance of getting though without a scar.

True.

Okay.Thanks ppl!

We started discussion in some other thread that i found unappropriate for that thread so just wanted to ask here.

When calculating CMB and CMD.Are enhancment weapons and armors bonuss added for calculating CMB/CMD?

Cant find sentence that indicates that it does apply.So i tought it doesnt.True?

Thanks in advance!

It' simple and clear. Enanchment bonus of weapon is an effect that you can apply to your hit throw. So, it's good for the CMB. Enanchment bonus is an effect. A permanent one, indeed, but it is.

Otherwise the situation would be silly: without feats, you give attack of opportunity with or without weapon. If you fail (and it's probable) you can be tripped or drop the weapon. So tripped or disarmed, you have to choose what manouver you want to suffer... not a good weapon ability.
If you have the feats, this weapon ability gives nothing to you, it's useless.
This has not much sense.
Instead, if you apply the enanchment bonus there's a reason for taking a weapon with trip special ability.
So, if you use a weapon to make a manouver, apply the bonus you have on the weapon.

Well as this isnt thread for such disscusion and i really think enhancement bonus dont give you CMB and CMD.By that means when you attempt to sunder piece of armor his enhancment bonus would apply as well.And in CMD description it is nothing with that.It states you add only dodge,deflection,sacred,profane,luck,circumstances,insight,morale bonuses on AC on your CMD..it doesnt say you add you armor bonus when some1 is sundering armor neither shield bonus when someone is sundering shield..

Leongorance wrote:

AlecStorm wrote:

Otherwise, why use a weapon with the trip ability (except for those with reach)?

Becuase you can make trip attempts only with trip weapons actually.And unnarmed strikes.Thats why.

I'd love to see a source on that. AFAIK all a tripping weapon does is give the tripper an option to drop the weapon if he fails his trip and is successfully tripped in response.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/isATripWeaponRequiredToTrip&page=1&source=search#0

You have thread there so everything will be explained if you wanna bother:)

Leongorance wrote:

AlecStorm wrote:

Leongorance wrote:

STR Ranger wrote:

That's the tactic I believe he's using.

You can charge while mounted.
Pounce lets you full attack while charging.
Sprited Charge means you do triple damage on a charge with a lance.

(Personally our group doesn't allow combining Sprited Charge with pounce, but Calain Heartstrike does 360 HP damage on a Pounce anyway AND makes them save vs Dazed. Usually gets the job done)

Well it can go in very looong debate.For example,on pounce.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Your mount is charging,not you.There are many debates about that one,and many have different opinion thou.Becuase of that you have movement of 300+ in charge.Not even monk can charge that much.

Also in the pounce description it say full attack is at the END of a charge,so i doubt ride-by-attack is possible.

You are making triple damage because of run-up you made,so after first attack you dont have that speed anymore.Only if you tranform into jedi that can hit 5 times in less than a second with lance that is very long weapon.Doubt even jedi could do that.

P.S.I was just wandering,is there any weapon that gives its enchancment bonus to sunder attempts?Becuase someone mentioned earlier that with +7 furious weapon you count +7 for sunder attempts as well.

If your mount charge, you do also. If not, you don't charge, don't take move action so you can do all attacks.

As rules state, you can use pounce to make all attacks, you can (sigh) do it with a lance, all of them x3 dmg, but you can't use ride by attack.

Every manouver you do with a weapon uses the weapon's bonus.

What I suggest: give the x3 dmg only for first attack, and don't let ppl using a lance for attack outside of a charge or make multiple attacks.

If you defend from a manouver targeting your weapon apply the enchantment bonus

...

Becuase you can make trip attempts only with trip weapons actually.And unnarmed strikes.Thats why.

And i am pretty sure "other effects" have nothing to do with weapon enhancment.Only weapons that gives you bonuses on CMB checks are weapons like disarming weapon for example(+2 on disarm checks).

Leongorance wrote:

STR Ranger wrote:

That's the tactic I believe he's using.

You can charge while mounted.
Pounce lets you full attack while charging.
Sprited Charge means you do triple damage on a charge with a lance.

(Personally our group doesn't allow combining Sprited Charge with pounce, but Calain Heartstrike does 360 HP damage on a Pounce anyway AND makes them save vs Dazed. Usually gets the job done)

Well it can go in very looong debate.For example,on pounce.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Your mount is charging,not you.There are many debates about that one,and many have different opinion thou.Becuase of that you have movement of 300+ in charge.Not even monk can charge that much.

Also in the pounce description it say full attack is at the END of a charge,so i doubt ride-by-attack is possible.

You are making triple damage because of run-up you made,so after first attack you dont have that speed anymore.Only if you tranform into jedi that can hit 5 times in less than a second with lance that is very long weapon.Doubt even jedi could do that.

P.S.I was just wandering,is there any weapon that gives its enchancment bonus to sunder attempts?Becuase someone mentioned earlier that with +7 furious weapon you count +7 for sunder attempts as well.

If your mount charge, you do also. If not, you don't charge, don't take move action so you can do all attacks.

As rules state, you can use pounce to make all attacks, you can (sigh) do it with a lance, all of them x3 dmg, but you can't use ride by attack.

Every manouver you do with a weapon uses the weapon's bonus.

What I suggest: give the x3 dmg only for first attack, and don't let ppl using a lance for attack outside of a charge or make multiple attacks.

If you defend from a manouver targeting your weapon apply the enchantment bonus to CMD.

Hmm i am just reading now CMB and CMD and i cant find where it say you can use your enhancement bonuses for calculating.It clearly states that for CMB you are using ONLY bab+strenght modifier+size modifier.In adition you can add bonuses provided by some feats or class abilities.

Similar goes for CMD,10+bab+str mod+dex mod+seize.In addition,you can as well add from feats and abilities,plus dodge,deflection,insight,sacred,circumstances,luck,morale and profane bonuses to AC.And thats it.

There is no single sentence that indicates you can use your items enhancement bonuses to determine your CMBs/CMDs.

Leongorance wrote:

trurl wrote:

The Divination Wizard still goes first. You cannot start rage on my turn.

Can any of these barbarians survive one round of spell casting?

** spoiler omitted **...

"Up to three times per day on command, this simple platinum band automatically reflects the next nine levels of spells cast at the wearer, exactly AS IF spell turning had been cast upon him".

Dont know if i am correct but you dont have spell turning on yourself,so there is nothing to dispel actually.What you need in this case would be spell disjunction becuase magic of the ring supplies you wtih that power.By that logic dispel magic would make full plate+5 just full plate.I guess it isnt case here.I might be wrong thou.

You are correct. It would be much better to Disjunction as the quickened spell. Then, it would not matter the GM's interpretation.

Yea,but problem is that disjunction is level 9 spell,so i guess it cant be quickened.Maybe from rod or wand?

Actually, he doesn't have an additional -4 to his will save. The Superstition bonus doesn't stack with the +4 Will bonus they normally get. So it would just be the -13 from Superstition down. And that will heavily effect their %'s you gave.

But because AM BARBARIAN had his hair pulled by mean girls when he was a kid, he took Strong Willed for +2 vs Charm/Compulsion

Arcane Sight will give you aura strength and schools (with a roll, but it's safe to assume you'd blow through that).

5 effects, starting at most powerful would mean 1 ring of spell turning is good.

Weapon: CL 15 (200k + MW cos)
Armor: CL 15 (even if it's just +1 Armor of Heavy Fort) (36k+MW cost)
Ring of Spell Turning CL 13 x2 (200k, 100k each)
Scarab of Protection CL 18 (38k)
Cloak of Resistance +5 CL 15 (25k)

He still has plenty of cash to build his belt of awesome, his boots of speed, etc. (Belt is CL 12) Even throw BATTY BAT a ring of ST maybe.

1 ring would survive.

Though the rings do take an action to activate. But with 2 rings he can have 7 hours of coverage which is a fairly hefty chunk of time for the work day. If it was on, it would add another effect (the Spell turning put upon him by the ring in addition to the ring itself)

But let's not worry about that.

On his action he would get a reroll with a +2 (oh, he can now rage) because your orders to Give his Loot he earned by stepping on the corpses of his enemies' is NOT really in the nature of a CN character.

Also, you gave 3 commands, not 1. So assuming it lands, AM BARBARIAN's turn rolls around and realizes he just got mind swizzled. Casting is obvious and he isn't prone to liking any unexplained casting. He can't rage for some reason. Well, that's against his Rage-tastic All Caps nature so BAM of how he rolls and smites CASTYS. Bam. New roll with +2.

But I have doubts it would matter. He charges, no rage, just a charge with his (Currently) MW Lance. He still has his strength belt because it wasn't hit by the dispel. He can output 90% likely about 90...

Yea he took 4 from rage but those +31 will he took from build mentioned above.And that build had improved iron will and book of wisdom for another +2.So it is the same % wise.He can go for imprisonment,that have lowers will save by another 4.

But all those are just situations and asumptions.And i think in much more situations barbarian will win.

Also noticed gear you wrote.If you give ring for bat its around 600k in gold.Left for tome of str+5 and belt of physical perfection.But one other thing came to my eye.He have +1 armor,necklase for energy levels and 2 rings of turning.So he actually lost 14AC because of that.No protection,natural and armor bonuses there.Barbarian is already very vulnerable against martials,but with that gear its catastrophe.Than he chould be really called total anticaster and thats it.

The Divination Wizard still goes first. You cannot start rage on my turn.

Can any of these barbarians survive one round of spell casting?

** spoiler omitted **...

"Up to three times per day on command, this simple platinum band automatically reflects the next nine levels of spells cast at the wearer, exactly AS IF spell turning had been cast upon him".

Dont know if i am correct but you dont have spell turning on yourself,so there is nothing to dispel actually.What you need in this case would be spell disjunction becuase magic of the ring supplies you wtih that power.By that logic dispel magic would make full plate+5 just full plate.I guess it isnt case here.I might be wrong thou.

Look, RAW is what RAW is, but I'm not going to argue with you about it.

You want to toss it out the window so that you can create a character that has several levels more worth of gear than he's suppossed to have? Fine.

The Barbarian has been killing quite a lot of wizards who use crafting rules to break WBL. So, just figure out how much gear you want to have and AM BARBARIAN is allowed to have 20 times that much gear (so as to reflect all the crafting wizards he's killed and all the gear he's taken from them).

DONE.

Or, we can play by the rules.

Your choice.

First.If you red my posts before you would saw that i am in group of ppl arguing barbarian beat wizards.

Second.Guy that is buying items will have less items than the one that is making them.Simple as that.We CANT argue who killed who during leveling etc etc.Someone maybe killed commoner and found in his closet 10 artifacts that he tought are tools for digging or somethin.That is so relative.

But still as i said,i wasnt saying this becuase i was trying to say wizard will win,just quoted post that has no logic at all for me and in my opinion wasnt accurate.

Leongorance wrote:

.....so by RAW player that reach level 20 in his life,is not able to buy gear that is worth 1 milion+gp becuase it is in RAW?!I mean wth?Are you kidding or what?You cant be serious...lol

One... answering a respondent's point with LOL is pretty damm rude.

Two... WBL is nothing more than a guideline for equipping characters to undertake a campaign with a given difficulty level. You want to give your players more or less... that's your prerogative. But it's easy to munchkin when you're building a character at a given level as oppsoed to having earned gear incrementally through play... The economics of a level rise are going to vary. Going to high level doesn't guarantee wealth, nor protect you from it's loss. WBL assumes that a player has had a string of gains and losses and the figure is what averages out. It also assumes that WBL is not a chunk of change that you go shopping at MagicMart. It respresents the legacy of what you've acquired minus what you've traded or lost.

What was quoted to you is what the table states for a 20th level character, an adventuring character as opposed to a more wealthy character that would have essentially retired from the dungeon-crawling life and more likely would be getting and spending his wealth in other ways. This essentially is a holdover from 3.X.

It is true.Didnt mean it in rude way thou.Writing too many SMS so lol was reflexive.But still yea.Sorry about that one!

That's the tactic I believe he's using.

You can charge while mounted.
Pounce lets you full attack while charging.
Sprited Charge means you do triple damage on a charge with a lance.

(Personally our group doesn't allow combining Sprited Charge with pounce, but Calain Heartstrike does 360 HP damage on a Pounce anyway AND makes them save vs Dazed. Usually gets the job done)

Well it can go in very looong debate.For example,on pounce.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Your mount is charging,not you.There are many debates about that one,and many have different opinion thou.Becuase of that you have movement of 300+ in charge.Not even monk can charge that much.

Also in the pounce description it say full attack is at the END of a charge,so i doubt ride-by-attack is possible.

You are making triple damage because of run-up you made,so after first attack you dont have that speed anymore.Only if you tranform into jedi that can hit 5 times in less than a second with lance that is very long weapon.Doubt even jedi could do that.

P.S.I was just wandering,is there any weapon that gives its enchancment bonus to sunder attempts?Becuase someone mentioned earlier that with +7 furious weapon you count +7 for sunder attempts as well.

Leongorance wrote:

LilithsThrall wrote:

Your gear is all priced wrong. Remember that crafting decreases the cost of making a magic item. It doesn't decrease the value of a magic item. Therefore, it has absolutely no affect on the total value of magic items you can carry wrt WBL.
This is another one of those common errors "wizard as god" theorycrafters make.
Plus, I'd like you to list exactly how much gold you are spending to buy spells for your spellbook and, roughly, how many spells at which spell levels (roughly, there's no need to get too precise yet).

Hmmm i think i woudlnt agree on WBL and item crafting issue,you pointed out tbh.And i doubt it is by RAW,as that would be utterly wrong.

So lets say like this.

For example,ranger on 20th lvl have 880,000 gp and he cannot make magic items.So he spent all his gold and now have magic items that have appropriate value according to WBL,which is okay.

Now we have wizard that have 880,000gp and he can make magic items.So he spent 440,000 gp and made SAME items as rangers bought,that are valued 880,000gp originally.So we have wizard with same items and 440,00 gp left.So you wanna say because of WBL he cant spend any more gold now lol?So that table in book will pop up from sky and tell him:

"Hey,you reached your wealth by level limit,so you cant buy anything else!!!"?

And he will sit there with his 440,000 gp doing nothing,becuase he reached the WBL limit?o.O

Lol,i guess if he want,he will just go and use another 440,000 gp to make more items and have 1,760,000 gp in value,which is perfectly logical and normal.

It doesn't really mater to me what he spends the 440,000 gp on (buying beer for his friends if he wants). By RAW, he can't spend it to increase his wealth to the level it'd be raised if he were allowed to use craft to circumvent WBL.

Now, as a GM, you are allowed to alter the rules any way you like. I recommend that you alter them to promote balance between characters. But we're not discussing house...

.....so by RAW player that reach level 20 in his life,is not able to buy gear that is worth 1 milion+gp becuase it is in RAW?!I mean wth?Are you kidding or what?You cant be serious...

Your gear is all priced wrong. Remember that crafting decreases the cost of making a magic item. It doesn't decrease the value of a magic item. Therefore, it has absolutely no affect on the total value of magic items you can carry wrt WBL.
This is another one of those common errors "wizard as god" theorycrafters make.
Plus, I'd like you to list exactly how much gold you are spending to buy spells for your spellbook and, roughly, how many spells at which spell levels (roughly, there's no need to get too precise yet).

Hmmm i think i woudlnt agree on WBL and item crafting issue,you pointed out tbh.And i doubt it is by RAW,as that would be utterly wrong.

So lets say like this.

For example,ranger on 20th lvl have 880,000 gp and he cannot make magic items.So he spent all his gold and now have magic items that have appropriate value according to WBL,which is okay.

Now we have wizard that have 880,000gp and he can make magic items.So he spent 440,000 gp and made SAME items as rangers bought,that are valued 880,000gp originally.So we have wizard with same items and 440,00 gp left.So you wanna say because of WBL he cant spend any more gold now lol?So that table in book will pop up from sky and tell him:

"Hey,you reached your wealth by level limit,so you cant buy anything else!!!"?

And he will sit there with his 440,000 gp doing nothing,becuase he reached the WBL limit?o.O

Lol,i guess if he want,he will just go and use another 440,000 gp to make more items and have 1,760,000 gp in value,which is perfectly logical and normal.

AlecStorm wrote:

Moreover, a character should be builded to go in adventure (with a party) and survive, here the purpose is just to kill a specific character. In game player take a lot of skill or feats because they want to enjoy even at low-middle levels, or maybe do roleplay or help the party. The way you interact with the environment is far more important than a single pvp. A good social character can make other people kill you, or ruin your life, because this is not a board game.

I would like to say. This barbarian is not statted or designed for PvP. This is the standard invulnerable rager barbarian for typical table top play. I am playing the same exact build (timing of choices may be different) in pathfinder society. This barbarian build rocks at all levels and in all situation. More than half of the rage powers chosen are not chosen to kill a wizard. He wouldn't need come and get me, reckless abandon, beast totem tree, and half a dozen other rage powers to kill a wizard. He is designed to survive in really bad situations and kill everything.

Here are my feat / rage power choices for my barbarian to lvl 12 (PFS stops at 12).

1)Feat - Raging Vitality
H)Feat - Power Attack
2)Rage - Lesser Beast Totem
3)Feat - Combat Reflexes
4)Rage - Reckless Abandon
5)Feat - Extra Rage Power - Superstition
6)Rage - Beast Totem
7)Feat - Extra Rage Power - Strength Surge
8)Rage - Witch Hunter
9)Feat - Extra Rage Power - Spell Sunder
10)Rage - Greater Beast Totem
11)Feat - Stunning Assault
12)Rage - Come and Get Me

So...he's more than half done and I have:
4 feats - None designed to combat casters
9 rage powers - 3 of which are designed for anti-caster and 6 of which are designed for for damage (Not really a needed thing against a caster with 80 hp)

The choices are very balanced and like I said....this will be extremely close if not exact to what AM BARBARIANS first 12 lvls are. And odly enough only 2 rage powers that he claimed to use are not on this list (ghost rager and eater of...

So,no feats like weapon focus,toughness,dodge,iron will,improved iron will,imp sunder,greater sunder,mounted combat,ride-by-attack,spirited charge or you are taking them later?

Okay,ghost rager,eater of magic...than come and get me,smasher,clear mind,moment of clarity,roused rager?

Seems some more feats and rage powers are mentioned in thread,but yea,its somethin like that.

You are awesome. And correct.

If only the other martials could reach similar levels of awesome.

Its absolutely fine the way it is already.Monks can deal with wizards easily as well.Rangers,paladins are great as well.And for fighters...besides wizard,would pick fighter against any other class any day.

So it is pretty balanced the way it is now.

LazarX wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

Frankly Spell Sunder shouldn't enter into the discussion. It's as broken as antagonize. It's almost as broken as antagonize was when there was a typo in the DC.

Sure deny one of the few opportunties to level the playing field between a caster and a martial.

Spell Sunder doesn't level the playing field at all. It just takes barbarians out of the martial category and puts them in a third "zomg broken" category. If you want to level the playing field you have to make it available to everyone. And not add a stat or allow it to benefit from sunder feats. Adding a stat to the checks when dispel magic doesn't is bad.

Hmm i dont agree.Honestly you look like someone that is pissed becuase someone can kill allmighty wizard with ease now.Besides barbarians,even monks can kill him easily.

Spell sunder is far from broken imo.Finally someone have anticaster weapon,was about time tbh.So what is probelm with that now?Spell sunder have no use against martials mostly.It has NO use at all against fighter for example and fighter is easily handling barbarian in fight.And on the other way,wizard is easily handling fighter.

If you ask me,spells like telerpot,scry,raise dead etc,are much more broken than spell sunder is.

Godwyn wrote:

I can honestly say I have read this entire thread. It is surprisingly worth it, even.

I am a fan of AM_BARBARIAN.

I also enjoy how no posted caster has managed to actually do much to AM on the first posting.

As his one true weak spot has been found, what are additional ways to help out the bat?

If you go mounted fury instead of invulnerable rager, you get a pretty tough horse, you give up 5 DR and 6 resist fire though. At some point in the horses life, it gets polymorph any object'ed into a dire bat, which is permanent. You grab greater ferocious mount, so your mount benefits from all you permanent rage powers, like supersition, allowing it to make a save once and a while. It can also rage, gaining +8 to con, helping it's hit points. Boon companion will make it an animal companion at your level. Mounted skirmisher allows you to pounce when you do a mounted charge, which would allow you to grab a different totem (he was built around a mounted charge already).

Mounted skirmisher actually gives you possibility to pounce when your mount move his speed or less.So you cant charge+pounce,as charge is double speed.And beast totem grants pounce while you charge,not mount.

But still i think mounted skirmisher is awesome for that build,as very most of fights will be in move range of mount.Though its problem it cost another 2 feats...and barbarian isnt great feat wise.

And btw was wandering,where from i can get dire bat for mount?Searched everything and couldnt find it.

Divergent wrote:

TarkXT wrote:

Divergent wrote:

Okay, whatever, as you say, there are still the Balors. I still don't notice you proposing a solution to a couple Balors piling on your barbarian.

Spell sundered. This has already been covered I believe.

The solution to all the barbarian's problems is to smash it. Always. Period. You really should have read the thread.

Wait a sec- Spell Sunder works on summoned creatures? Alrighty then, change of tactics: dump delayed blast fireballs around him, then Initiate Invisiblity + as many blasting spells as you can pump out in a round.

A solid plan. Unfortunately last I checked he had energy resistances and still had ridiculously high saves. Plus, being a barbarian has really high hitpoints. So, while invisible and screaming at the high perception barbarian who can turn you into pink mist with one charge how long do you think you can last? Better keep that teleport handy.

Honestly? If I were the wizard? I'd cast Wish and give the barbarian a long and happy existence far away from me with all the barefoot women making him sandwhiches that he wanted. One 9th level spell. I win by making him concede fight in favor of lunch and wenching.

This is how I wizard. By making it so I never have to roll initiative.

I think someone said before best bet for barbarians is heavy fortification on armor,so no resistance.

One of few ways that would go for wizards.Time stop+4 empowered delayed blast fireballs.If he survives.On next round use it again and thats it.

But still thats just theory,as i dont see why would wizard use all spell slots for emp.dely.blast fireball.

Though i am still on barbarians,monks side vs wizard.Paladins and rangers would have some chance maybe.While fighter would most probably die.Though fighter would most probably kill those classes i mentioned.Balance.I agree with Lockgo completely on this point.

Well as i said at the very start of this thread,there is no C-M D.Everything is kept in balance.Barbarians and monks have much bigger chance to kill wizard,than being killed.Rangers and paladins are also very competitive in that section.While fighters have less chance against wizard.

And on the other side,fighters have much bigger chance to kill classes other than wizards,sorcerers.And all goes round and round.So everything is kept in very good balance.So,no trouble at all.

Cheers!

To be more specific, AM BARBARIAN is in a odd state of flux, as I'm still figuring out a couple of extraneous powers and feats.

What I know he has: power attack, improved sunder, mounted combat, raging vitality, ride by attack, spirited charge.

As rage powers, we have the following: strength surge, superstition, witch hunter, spell sunder, smasher, eater of magic, and the three beast totem powers.

The rest I am not decided on. We know he is a human invulnerable rager with heart of the fields, focusing his profession bonus on profession engineer in case he needs to collapse a cavern by punching it.

He rides an awakened dire bat, and uses a lance.

The thing is, the rest is just gravy. This is all he needs as a base.

Toughness,Weapon focus?You can use trick riding+mounted skirmisher(thats pounce while mounted,as you cant actually use pounce while mounted as your mount is charging,not you.This feat gives you pounce,not with charge,but still can do nice job.You dont need straight line as you need for charge.)

And for rage powers:clear mind,moment of clarity,reckless abandon,unexpected strike(very good for guys using reach weapons),animal fury(not bad in combo with beast totems),come and get me(thou not that good for guys using reach weapon).

Just some toughts thou:)

Cheers!

Lab_Rat wrote:

You apparently joined this battle late.

Nope...not a +40 will save. My level 20 barbarian has a +43 Fort a +29 reflex and a +31 will save with a reroll. Barbarians are no slouches on the saves.

Wait a minute...your a summoner. You actually think your weak DC spells will effect a barbarian. As for your walls and tentacles.....Spell Sunder. You can not wall in the barbarian. He can freaking sunder a prismatic wall/sphere spell and not even break a sweat.

I'm loving the melee-love here, but can someone post a 20th level Barbarian so I can see how you amped him up?

Scroll several posts up and you will see how he got those saves.And about whole build,not sure about that one:)

STR Ranger wrote:

@Lab_rat

Can you show me your save breakdown, please. I'd like to steal some boosts for my Invulnerable Rager.

Nothing too crazy. The biggest bump is from the human superstition bonus. You get an additional +1 superstition bonus each 3 lvls which will give you an additional +6 at lvl 20.

Fort:
Base - 12
Starting Stat - 3
Lvl Bumps - 2
Belt - 3
Rage - 5 (mighty rage + raging vitality = +10 Con bump)
Cloak - 5
Superstition - 13
Total = +43

Reflex:
Base - 6
Starting Stat - 2
Belt - 3
Cloak - 5
Superstition - 13
Total = +29

Will:
Base - 6
Starting Stat - 0 (Yes I have a +31 with a starting wisdom of 10)
Book - 2
Headband - 3
Iron Will - 2
Cloak - 5
Superstition - 13
Total = +31 (reroll from clear mind or improved iron will. Or both if you are paranoid)

I think you shouldnt waste that much money on book(tome+4 is 110.000gp).And dont even use feat or two for iron will and greater iron will.As caster with +13 int modfier will have around 33-34 DC for high lvl spells.And i think it would be fail for him to use it against that high saves.So i think 31 is just overkill,and maybe waste of money and feats.If you are paranoid thou,you can isntead of book go for ring of spell turning that will protect you from 27 levels of spells per day if you accidentally fail save.It cost 100.000gp.One of my favourite items.Ray shield+reflecting shield+ring of spell turning+lavender and green ioun stone+24ish saves makes even fighter almost immune to spells.

Oh, and I will *happily* take the caster side of the 4:4 battle.

Everyone have right to make choice...but are they right ones,thats another question:)

Really...As a caster your best bet is still:

You win initiative: As much as AM BARBARIAN can claim to change reality through awesomeness. A divination spec'ed wizard has a 40 something initiative always.

Cast time stop: Buff up and then on last round of time stop cast gate.
Bring in a CR20 creature that you have built up a good relationship with (No risk of creature hating you this way and since its CR is your level you have control).

Have the barbarian dish it out with your pal and provide support from a safe distance.

More than likely the wizard will win this one. There is no cheese involved, just pure and efficient usage of the 2 most powerful lvl 9 wizard spells in the game. Other than that I think the wizard going up against the barbarian one on one is just suicidal. The barbarians saves are strong enough to survive the first round of combat and if you don't have something strong enough to stand in his way you will on the wrong end of a BATTY BAT lance charge.

Concidering, the number of spell combos at a wizards disposal, the fact that he has to resort to such powerful measures says something about how good a high lvl barbarian can be.

Can anyone think of another caster opening round that could take out a well prepared barbarian?

Not sure gate works while time stop is active,as you affect another creature.Only spell you can cast while in time stop that is affecting others is delayed blast fireball if i am correct.

Wizard can start fight with time stop,and while in time stop 4xempowered delayed blast fireball for 120d6 dmg,which can be pretty hard to take.Also all clever wizards will have contigancy-dimension door.So when you charge them,they just go away and leave you there alone,hitting air.

But all those things are so realtive,and this isnt 1vs1 game.For every class combination you have counter class combination etc.That is game balance.And that is reason why i never had issues with C-M D.You can mostly find solution for everyone,and everyone can mostly find solution for you.And it goes round and around.And i am happy with that.

My guess is Druidzilla and Fluffy Destroyer of Worlds is tanking the brutes, Oracle is keeping everyone Full of Life, Bard is handing out Insane Buffs to everyone, and God Wizard is molding the field to his whims, which consist of Ending All Opposition.

Just a guess.

Could be possible ye.Initiative is also very important.And still,can be some other way.Like monk taking on wizard on first turn,palading giving fighter saves(like bestow grace) so he save extremely easly and than killing bard or oracle in full attack on his turn.Wander fluffy and druid can tank off barbarian for long period of time.

Would be very interesting to have that kind of fight i guess.

I gotta agree here.

As a switch hitting Ranger, casting is not really my focus (aside from some BIG love for Instant Enemy)
Ask any Paladin or Ranger what he does for a livng and he will not answer 'I'm a magicuser'

Anyway That all martial party would work just fine.

Me (Switch Hit STR Ranger/Wolf Trip Buddy)
AM BARBARIAN (Mounted Lance Pouncer)
Aden of The Shield (Luring Statagist Switch Hit Cavalier)
Dugald Paladinson (Mounted Spirited Charge, TWF Oath of Vengence)

Me and Aden can do the Shooting (if Required- Aden uses drill sergent to grant everybody Coordinated Charge)
Me and Dugald Can share healing, Dugald can lay on hands for condition removal
Me and Wolfie can scout (with the rest only a mounted Charge away)

Standard tactic- AM BARBARIAN and Dugald Paladinson go up the guts, shrugging of Magic and drawing attention. Me and Move in from opposite flanks (full attack shooting). Meet in the middle- where all the bodies are.

BTW AM BARBARIAN doesn't HAVE to destroy all the loot. If he takes SUNDER ENCANTMENT rage power, a successful sunder attempt (so first strike, BEFORE completely wrecked) and the item's magical properties are supressed for a round or 3.

So AM BARBARIAN sunders +5 Full Plate with Sunder Enchantment (Item loses Enhancement bonus) then uses remaining attackts to Dazing Assault enemy. Enemy dies. LOOT LIVES.

Well that is third rage power and 2 feats invested just for sundering.Think its alot investment.And its not that easy for armor to be destroyed.On very most levels you will need some rounds to waste to sunder.And on later lvls adamantine armors arent that rare anymore.

And for that party.It depends on teritory mostly for fights.If you are talking about big teritory where ranges have space to shoot.Than you can take paladin with bestow grace and 3 fighter archers with some lvls of barbarian,and most of caster wont even start turn.But as i said it all depends on terrain.

I was more thinking of some kind of fighting arena,where is mostly fair conditions for everyone.Saw in UC some dueling rules withinh dueling arena.So that was place i tought of mostly,as it is most fair for 4vs4 combat for example.And it cant be 2 of same class,so 4 different.Something like that.Could be fun.

There i would go for paladin,monk,barabrian and fighter on martial side.

Leongorance wrote:

And finally on thread not...As this isnt 1vs1.Wander who would won in 4 casters vs 4martials,for example fight?

I guess martial side is best to have paladin,monk,barbarian and fighter?

Paladins and Rangers are casters. You can run a cavalier instead.

Team Caster is going to be something like Bard, Oracle, Druid, Wizard. It's going to be an awfully one sided battle.

Have to disagree there with you.Paladins and rtangers are far more martials than casters.

Theye much more use there martial powers(full attack) than they use spells,oposite to real casters(wizards,druids,bards etc) that use spells much more often,if not always.

Would love to know why it would be awfully one sided battle?

BARBARIAN AM POINTING OUT THAT BE FIAT TO KEEP BARBARIAN FROM OVERPOWERING CASTYS.

MARTIAL AM NEED FIAT TO BALANCE WITH CASTY.

SHOE AM ON WHOLE NOTHER FOOT NOW!

Haha need one like you in our group tbh!

P.S.We are playing atm,and we just got black tentackled.Pretty nasty spell tbh:)

Lab_Rat wrote:

AM BARBARIAN wrote:

Leongorance wrote:

And finally on thread not...As this isnt 1vs1.Wander who would won in 4 casters vs 4martials,for example fight?

I guess martial side is best to have paladin,monk,barbarian and fighter?

AM BARBARIAN/BARBARIAN/FIGHTY/FIGHTY. FIGHTYS AM ARCHERS WITH BARBARIAN LEVELS. AM SPELL SUNDER AT 2500 FEET AWAY.

In all honesty....against a caster party, the fightys are just liabilities. They are more than likely out in the first round before they get to go. Anyone have a Fighty with a will save bonus above 20 to prove me wrong?

Well like this for example.Playing one atm.

Dwarf fighter.20 point buy.16str(10 points),13dex(3),15 con(3),13 int(3),14 wis(2)+6 helm which is very very good for fighters later,at least will get one=20,7 cha(-1).

so will save:6base,5wis,4 steel soul,2 iron will,5 cloak,1 trait,1 iouns tone.So total of 24 and reroll unbuffed.paladin in group you can add his charisma to will svaves.It can go 35+ and reroll.Thats buffed true.

But still 24 with reroll is pretty pretty nice.Dont know how much other martial classes can get exactly,but i guess pally,barb,monk can get high as well.

And main feat tree is for ray shield(once per round ignoring range touch attacks),reflecting property on shield(getting spell back on caster on per day),ring of spell turning(27 lvl of spells absorbing per day) and ioun stone can get there as well for another 50 lvls of spell to ignore(from 1st to 8th spel lvls are affected thou).With this in combination with those saves make fighter as well very very strong against spells.

AM BARBARIAN wrote:

Leongorance wrote:

And finally on thread not...As this isnt 1vs1.Wander who would won in 4 casters vs 4martials,for example fight?

I guess martial side is best to have paladin,monk,barbarian and fighter?

AM BARBARIAN/BARBARIAN/FIGHTY/FIGHTY. FIGHTYS AM ARCHERS WITH BARBARIAN LEVELS. AM SPELL SUNDER AT 2500 FEET AWAY.

In all honesty....against a caster party, the fightys are just liabilities. They are more than likely out in the first round before they get to go. Anyone have a Fighty with a will save bonus above 20 to prove me wrong?

Well like this for example.Playing one atm.

Dwarf fighter.20 point buy.16str(10 points),13dex(3),15 con(3),13 int(3),14 wis(2)+6 helm which is very very good for fighters later,at least will get one=20,7 cha(-1).

so will save:6base,5wis,4 steel soul,2 iron will,5 cloak,1 trait,1 iouns tone.So total of 24 and reroll unbuffed.paladin in group you can add his charisma to will svaves.It can go 35+ and reroll.Thats buffed true.

But still 24 with reroll is pretty pretty nice.Dont know how much other martial classes can get exactly,but i guess pally,barb,monk can get high as well.

Leongorance wrote:

Ah as i see you cant pounce while charging on mount so...no more point in argue than.:)

There is nothing in the rules that states that when you charge on a mount you do not get all the benefits and penalties that you would have if not mounted. There is no difference. And just for specifics of previous board questions regarding pounce and mounted combat, there is one thread.

Here it is:
Pounce+Mounted combat

So I am pretty sure you can pounce while mounted. You would get your full attack and your mount gets its one attack (unless it has pounce too - LOL).

Well opinions are different.In charge description it say YOU move double your speed.And pounce allows you to full attack after chrage.So basically as mount is moving,you arent charging,its mount.So its much more realistic that you cant.But that needs another thread i guess.

And finally on thread not...As this isnt 1vs1.Wander who would won in 4 casters vs 4martials,for example fight?

I guess martial side is best to have paladin,monk,barbarian and fighter?

Improved sunder is to keep you from provoking versus summons or people you're debuffing. I'm not sure if greater sunder has room to fit, but is mostly just there because it's nice to have.

Dont think one AOO will hurt you that much.Think it would be better to invest in another feat,as barbs dont have that many other feats.But still thats just my opinion.Love barbarians but didnt played them so often.

Tought maybe there are better rage powers than smasher as well.Maybe even better than STR surge.Not sure about last one though.

SEE? EVEN LORD AND SAVIOR AM AGREE.

BARBARIAN ALWAYS WIN.

Haha okay than!I dont have argument against that for sure!:)

SOMEONE FAIL WILL SAVE VERSUS STUPID TODAY.

AM PROBLEM WITH FIGHTYS. NO WILL SAVE, EVEN WITH REROLL.

BARBARIAN USE LOWER DC. BARBARIAN AM THINKING FIGHTY HAS GOOD SAVES, BUT CONFUSE FIGHTY WITH BARBARIAN.

FIGHTY AM ALREADY LOST. BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WIN EVERYTHING ALWAYS. AM BEATING FIGHTY IN HEAD WITH GOALPOSTS, AM SUNDER FLY BOOTS, AM SUNDER ARMOR, AM SUNDER ALL.

IF AM NOT CLEAR, FIGHTY NEED MORE POINTS IN PERCEPTION.

Haha that was offence and hard words there.But okay,no bad feeling for barbarians:)

Will use wand of CLW on you,than kill myslef.So you won.Okay,okay,okay!

I would like to break character for a moment here just to point out that nobody is trying to clam barbarians lose versus casters anymore, and are instead making super focused melee builds specifically to try and beat a barbarian.

...I think Barbarians may have just become Pathfinder's first full-bab caster.

Naturally, they cast off of STR, and all their spells damage something.

Hmmm noone is trying that.Those meelee build are specifically made to be usefull in all area combat,far from made for barbarian.

And honestly,i think that big investments,feat wise and rage powers wise for sundering are way too much,becuase barbarian will make success on spell sunder almost always anyway.And regular sunder-for armors,weapons for example isnt that popular tbh.On first place as there is very few monsters against who it can be used,plus its a very big loss of money for party if you are breaking loot all the time.

Just my 5 cents.

CLEARLY FIGHTY AM NOT HEAR OF RIDE BY ATTACK.

BARBARIAN ON BAT AM HAVING ABILITY TO CHARGE - FULL ATTACK - MOVE AGAIN.

UNLESS FIGHTY AM ABLE TO ALSO CHARGE - FULL ATTACK - MOVE AGAIN, ARGUMENT AM UMINPORTANT.

BARBARIAN AM ALSO NOTING THAT RULES TEXT SAY 'CAN' WEILD LANCE ONE HANDED ON MOUNT. ONLY CRAPPY BARBARIAN PAY ATTENTION TO THAT RULE, BECAUSE CAN AM NOT MUST. AM MORE EVIDENCE OF BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN INTELLIGCENCE DESTRUCITY.

BARBARIAN SO SMART, AM INVENTING NEW WAYS TO SPELL INTELLIGCENCE.

UM... BARBARIAN AM FORGETTING WHERE TO GO NEXT WITH POINT. LET BARBARIAN CONSULT 'ARGUING BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY ON INTERENTS.' AM PAMPHLET BARBARIAN RITE FOR NEW PEOPLE TO GAME.

OH. FOUND PLACE. UHM. PAST LEVEL 5 ALL COMBAT AM ON NARROW FIELD, ANYONE WHO AM DECLARE OTHERWISE AM NOT PLAYING GAME PROPERLY.

AND TALKING ABOUT WHAT FIGHTY CAN DO DURING FULL ATTACK AM IRRELEVANT AS BATTY BAT AM NEVER GOING TO BE IN RANGE, AND IF FIGHTY AM USING FLY SPELL, BARBARIAN AM USING SPELL SUNDER TO SMASH FLY SPELL.

AM GOOD TRY THO. RIDE BY ATTACK NOT PROVOKE AND LET BARBARIAN REMAIN OUT OF REACH WHILE HAVING REACH, FEATS AM USELESS AGAINST ALL-MIGHTY BARBARIAN.

STOP MOVING GOALPOSTS. ONLY ONE ABLE DO THAT AM CATCHUP GUARD BARBARIAN, AND ONLY BECAUSE CATCHUP GUARD BARBARIAN AM PROFICIENT.

BARBARIAN AM CLEARLY WINNER.

You can move only if you have that much room.If there is object behind me,no more moving.

Also,you cant charge if no straight line to me.Not hard to make it not straight.

Well if if you ever heared for winged boots,you would know you can fly without spell fly.So no fly sunder,and can catch you easily:)

Ah as i see you cant pounce while charging on mount so...no more point in argue than.:)

BARBARIAN AM USING SMASHER RAGE POWER, IT BYPASS HARDNESS. ADAMANTINE APPROXIMATELY AS HARD AS PAPER TO BARBARIAN.

BARBARIAN ALSO FIGURE SQUISHY ARMORED GUY AM USING HASTEYS.

NOTE BARBARIAN AM NOT INCLUDE HASTEYS BECAUSE THIS AM BUFF EVERYONE AM HAVING. BARBARIAN ASSUME FIGHTY KNEW THIS, BARBARIAN AM SADLY NOT INTRIGUED TO SEE AM NOT KNOWING. BARBARIAN ROUND AM LOOK SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

AM CHARGE IN FROM HUGE DISTANCE AWAY ON BATTY BAT.

AM FULL ROUND ACTION.

AM USE SMASHER ON FIRST ACTION.

BARBARIAN AM ALREADY HAVING +74 AFTER GREATER SUNDER. AM NOT SURE IF FEETS AM OPEN, BARBARIAN AM THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.

THEN BARBARIAN AM GET ADDITIONAL +1 FROM HASTYS. AM +75. AFTER THAT, BARBARIAN AM NOTING HE AM SUNDER ARMOR, NOT WEAPON. AM APPROXIMATELY 4+2+4 TOO HIGH DUE TO GLOVE THINGYS. BONUS AM NOT 97, AM 87. LEARN TO MATHS, FIGHTY AM WORSE AT IT THAN BARBARIAN. AM FAIRLY SAD. IF BARBARIAN AM GO FIRST (BARBARIAN CHARGE RADIUS 360 FEET DUE TO DIVING BATTY BAT OF AWESOME, SO LIKELY TO GO FIRST AND BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WIN INITIATIVE) AM BECOME 81. IF FIGHTY GO FIRST, BARBARIAN JUST SMASH CASTYS. FIGHTY AM NOT GOOD AT GETTING IN BATTY BAT WAY.

MOVING ON, BARBARIAN AM THEN CHARGING. THIS AM MAKING BARBARIAN BONUS AT +77. WHEN BARBARIAN MOVE FIRST, THIS AM 85% CHANCE OF HIT. WHEN BARBARIAN NOT MOVE FIRST, BARBARIAN USE BATTY BAT TO GET WHERE BARBARIAN NEED GO TO MOVE FIRST. BARBARIAN AM UNFAIR. ON CHARGING RAGELANCEPOUNCE, BARBARIAN AM DEALING APPROXIMATELY...

3D8+87 PER HIT. MATH AM REALLY FAST, ONLY ASSUME +14 STR AND +7 FROM WEAPON, WITH MINIMAL BONUS. SMASHER AM IGNORE ITEM HARDNESS, THUS AM DEALING AVERAGE OF 100.5 DAMAGE TO ADAMANTINE ARMOR WITHOUT EVEN POWER ATTACKING REGARDLESS OF ADAMANTINENESS OF ARMOR. BARBARIAN AM PUNCH THROUGH TWO AND HALF INCHES OF ADAMANTINE NO PROBLEM. AM LANCE THAT PIERCE HEAVENS.

ALSO, POUNCE AM STILL LEAVING BARBARIAN WITH REMAINING FOUR ATTACKS. AND FIGHTY JUST LOST 14 AC AT LEAST.

IS PITY, BUT EVEN CRAZY FIGHTY HAVE 85% CHANCE OF LOSS TO BARBARIAN....

Yes,and fighter will just stand there and watch you carhging all te time while he is doing nothing.If you loose so many rounds just charging fighter then you loose alot.And besides that 360 you are talking might occur on some huge meddow or somethin.On 99% of terrian you WONT be able to do that.

Btw when you are crahging you are using lance in one hand,so you dont calculate x1.5 str,so you wont do 100 dmg.

And most important thing,because of lance you made that high dmg on armor,and your lance have reach.As far as i know(might be wrong thou) you cannot attack target that is adjactent to you with reach weapon.So imagine with following step+pin down+stand still what will happen,and will you hit me again after that first charge.

Also one crit is enough for you to go down from bat,unless you have 100+ride skill.Plus stun(or staggered-only can use single action on your turn,move or standrad,but no full attack))on crit,and on 5 hits crit chance with scimitar is over 85%.

Anyway,TOZ.You are right,my fault,didnt have table than.My apologize for that.

Cheers

Leongorance wrote:

By table,+5 adamantine full plate have hardiness of 30 and 140 hit points,so its kinda absurd even to try to break it.

Your math for the HP is off.

5 x Armor Bonus 9 = 45 + 15 Adamantine Bonus HP (1/3 of 45) = 60 + 10 per Enhancement Bonus HP (50) = 110.

Hmmm do you red table correctly?

Maybe i am wrong but as far as i remember table is made for medium armors.And therefore when calculating for light is /2 and when you are counting for heavy its x2.You have it at the bottom of table.So for heavy isnt 5x9,it is 10x9 if i am correct.So it is 170 hit points.I might be wrong on that one thou...dont have book here atm,so cant check it.

BARBARIAN AM USING SMASHER RAGE POWER, IT BYPASS HARDNESS. ADAMANTINE APPROXIMATELY AS HARD AS PAPER TO BARBARIAN.

BARBARIAN ALSO FIGURE SQUISHY ARMORED GUY AM USING HASTEYS.

NOTE BARBARIAN AM NOT INCLUDE HASTEYS BECAUSE THIS AM BUFF EVERYONE AM HAVING. BARBARIAN ASSUME FIGHTY KNEW THIS, BARBARIAN AM SADLY NOT INTRIGUED TO SEE AM NOT KNOWING. BARBARIAN ROUND AM LOOK SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

AM CHARGE IN FROM HUGE DISTANCE AWAY ON BATTY BAT.

AM FULL ROUND ACTION.

AM USE SMASHER ON FIRST ACTION.

BARBARIAN AM ALREADY HAVING +74 AFTER GREATER SUNDER. AM NOT SURE IF FEETS AM OPEN, BARBARIAN AM THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.

THEN BARBARIAN AM GET ADDITIONAL +1 FROM HASTYS. AM +75. AFTER THAT, BARBARIAN AM NOTING HE AM SUNDER ARMOR, NOT WEAPON. AM APPROXIMATELY 4+2+4 TOO HIGH DUE TO GLOVE THINGYS. BONUS AM NOT 97, AM 87. LEARN TO MATHS, FIGHTY AM WORSE AT IT THAN BARBARIAN. AM FAIRLY SAD. IF BARBARIAN AM GO FIRST (BARBARIAN CHARGE RADIUS 360 FEET DUE TO DIVING BATTY BAT OF AWESOME, SO LIKELY TO GO FIRST AND BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WIN INITIATIVE) AM BECOME 81. IF FIGHTY GO FIRST, BARBARIAN JUST SMASH CASTYS. FIGHTY AM NOT GOOD AT GETTING IN BATTY BAT WAY.

MOVING ON, BARBARIAN AM THEN CHARGING. THIS AM MAKING BARBARIAN BONUS AT +77. WHEN BARBARIAN MOVE FIRST, THIS AM 85% CHANCE OF HIT. WHEN BARBARIAN NOT MOVE FIRST, BARBARIAN USE BATTY BAT TO GET WHERE BARBARIAN NEED GO TO MOVE FIRST. BARBARIAN AM UNFAIR. ON CHARGING RAGELANCEPOUNCE, BARBARIAN AM DEALING APPROXIMATELY...

3D8+87 PER HIT. MATH AM REALLY FAST, ONLY ASSUME +14 STR AND +7 FROM WEAPON, WITH MINIMAL BONUS. SMASHER AM IGNORE ITEM HARDNESS, THUS AM DEALING AVERAGE OF 100.5 DAMAGE TO ADAMANTINE ARMOR WITHOUT EVEN POWER ATTACKING REGARDLESS OF ADAMANTINENESS OF ARMOR. BARBARIAN AM PUNCH THROUGH TWO AND HALF INCHES OF ADAMANTINE NO PROBLEM. AM LANCE THAT PIERCE HEAVENS.

ALSO, POUNCE AM STILL LEAVING BARBARIAN WITH REMAINING FOUR ATTACKS. AND FIGHTY JUST LOST 14 AC AT LEAST.

IS PITY, BUT EVEN CRAZY FIGHTY HAVE 85% CHANCE OF LOSS TO BARBARIAN....

Haha do you really think that by that time fighter wont be able to fly?:))Absolutely not rue you will always play first.

Btw how many rage powers barbarian can use during an action?All of them or?

Well if you didnt red post,even with 100.5 from hit you wont destroy armor.

And if you come to fighter with scimitar full attack,you are over.As there is over 85% chance for crit,and if you get single crit you become staggered,or even worse stunned,and thats over.

And btw is pounce barbarian only ability?:)

Leongorance wrote:

Lab_Rat wrote:

Leongorance wrote:

Hmmmm write me exact number of barbarian CMB against sunder,and then i will write you exactly number of fighter CMD against it.

My barbarian build:

BAB = 20
Str (20) = 5
Str (lvl and book) = 5
Belt (Str) = 3
Rage = 4
+5 Furious Adamantine Lucern Hammer = 7 (+2 if medium/heavy armor)
Improved + Greater sunder = 4
Str Surge = 20
Charge = 2

Total = +70 (+72 if medium/heavy armor) before rolling

Edit: Higher than Am Barbarian but he does not have greater sunder or invest any lvl stat bumps in Str (which would make up for the +5 difference).

First of all,how you think you will be able to sunder adamantine full plate?You DONT ignore his hardiness as adamantine weapon ignore hardiness only LESS than 20.So you WONT ignore full plate hardiness.

"Adamantine: Mined from rocks that fell from the heavens, this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness LESS than 20."
"Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20."

So good luck in sundering that full plate in one hit:)

Next time before you blow a fuse like that re-read my post. No where did I say anything about by-passing hardness. No-where. I know how adamantine works.

Well i dont know what was point of discussion than?If from start you knew that you cannot break armor than whats point?Its the end,fighter wins.

By table,+5 adamantine full plate have hardiness of 30 and 140 hit points,so its kinda absurd even to try to break it.

Also as far as i know STR surge is once per rage?If so,if you fail to destroy it on first try(and 100% you will,as you wont have even nealry have enough dmg output,even with PA,and PA reduce CMB as well) you will have 20 less CMB for sunder attempts and its the end.

So conclusion.Sundering swoard and board fighters is not gonna do it for barb.

Cheers!

EDIT-My last post.

To Andy Ferguson.Out of curiosity asked friend,that studies maths,so he is much better than me with percents:),to count me what is chance,to win with 12 bigger initiative.It is 93% actually.
So i think it is enough to be said "almost every time".

Cheers!

Leongorance wrote:

As i said,more feats.I didnt saw in that build imp initiative,archer fighter will always have it.So its 12 more which is alot and as i said,almost every time will play before.Hmmm i will have belt for con as he have and wont dump con as i said.Will leave it 14.So with belt is 100 health more than you said.And archer fighter will have way better AC due to higher dex,Reckless abandon,rage.Around 11-12 more.So barbarian will hit him less than archer will.Plus archer will most prolly play first.As well archer gan shoot from very very far distance btw.

Improved initiative would give you a 60% chance to go first, again, not 'almost every time'. The belt gives you 60 more hitpoints, still not enough. Instead of saying way better AC, why don't you use numbers. And your figures have always taken into account point blank shot, so don't say it happens at long range. You set the fight at close range.

Seriouslly man,no offence but your mats is very bad.With 12 better i have 60% and you have 40% to win initiative?You serious?

Well if we have SAME initiative we have 50-50 to win right?I am not that brilliant in maths as well but i think 3 difference in initiative will make somethin around those 60-40 you are talking about.12 more means that WHENEVER i roll 8+ you will loose(if you know,same initiative count always is won by guy with higher initiative bonus).If i roll 7,you have to roll 20,If i roll 6 you have to roll 19+,if i roll 5 you have to roll 18+ etc etc.

So not sure totally about that,but if i have 12 better initiative i will win it around 85-90% of times:)And by that i meant almost always will win.Not even close to 60%.

AC:base 10,+5mithral full plate-21,5 ring,5 amulet,1dodge,1haste,1ioun stone.That is 44AC.It is 9 more and while CAGM its 13 more.

Okay,take that 1 hit and dmg while i am hitting your from 200+feats.So will have in 85-90% situations 2 FULL attacks(14 attacks in total) before you even hit me.Very enough i would say.

Cheers:)

Leongorance wrote:

STR Ranger wrote:

Forget I said anything about the AC fighter. AM BARBARIAN already spanked him in another thread.

Yea and on thread i already answered you.No chance for barbarian to match fighter CMD vs sunder and disarm.Thou high lvl fighters are even immune to disarm and some to sunder.But doesnt matter as 70+CMD vs sunder is mostly untouchable.

70+ on a sunder is not untouchable....you were re-answered on the thread. Barbarians can get into the 60+-70's+ range on their bonus to sunder before they even roll the die.

With the addition of spell sunder I really do think that sunder should be a focus of barbarians. Grabbing improved sunder can help with dispelling spells and with taking care of those difficult metal turtles. People tend to ignore sunder because of the loot issue, but I say live first loot later.

And you were rereanswered on same as well:)