I'm not trying to be snarky, but with strength surge I think the barbarian can rip the balors vorpal blade and whip from his hand and beat him to death with them.
1 round - greater dispel magic barbarian gear.1 round gets me a cr20 balor to kill him. Draw components as move action from haversack. Standard action call cr 20 balor (I control him as he is my caster lvl or less in cr). Free action to say kill the barbarian.
follow up with further dispels if it takes longer. Barbarian will take a -7 to hit balor and can not by pass it's Dr. Balor now has a much better chance of surviving.
if barb has invis and mind blank. I just go home. Or the fight never happens because we are dumb to find each other.
he might win with that. Maybe the better idea was to call in a creature with Nat weapons. Oh well. After seeing the barbarian kill my balor (don't have to worry about a balor being pissed off at me now) I teleport home and replan.
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So the wizard has to wreck the country side to deal with a barbarian and a case of mistaken identity? The wizard would be dead or evil before trying that approach.
Does the mount have good saves/use the rider's save? Hold monster on it sounds reasonable. If it has magical flight the barb doesn't fall and get closer to you.
A readied action to cast a reached (meta) euphoric tranquility does not allow a save. Then talk with the barb to get his name. Later cast trap the soul on a properly prepared gem, give as gift later.
Why he is exausted?I summoned 2 Planetars to both hit him with waves of exhaustion. That's when the discussion got bogged down and side tracked.
A ring of counter spell, or spell turning, could make the counter spell go very negatively for the wizard.
good thing dispell is against objects and not the barb. No worry of spell turning.
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good thing dispell is against objects and not the barb. No worry of spell turning.Why he is exausted?I summoned 2 Planetars to both hit him with waves of exhaustion. That's when the discussion got bogged down and side tracked.
A ring of counter spell, or spell turning, could make the counter spell go very negatively for the wizard.
A ring of spell turning is command activated. Thats a standard action.
So the wizard has to wreck the country side to deal with a barbarian and a case of mistaken identity? The wizard would be dead or evil before trying that approach.
Does the mount have good saves/use the rider's save? Hold monster on it sounds reasonable. If it has magical flight the barb doesn't fall and get closer to you.
A readied action to cast a reached (meta) euphoric tranquility does not allow a save. Then talk with the barb to get his name. Later cast trap the soul on a properly prepared gem, give as gift later.
Doesn't need to be a balor you call. Pick an outsider that is cr 20 or less. How about Lhaksharut. Goodies against chaotic beings and a whole boat load of attacks. That or a pleroma. Those are the 2 non-evil cr 20 outsiders.
good thing dispell is against objects and not the barb. No worry of spell turning.Why he is exausted?I summoned 2 Planetars to both hit him with waves of exhaustion. That's when the discussion got bogged down and side tracked.
A ring of counter spell, or spell turning, could make the counter spell go very negatively for the wizard.
I'm not sure I agree with your reading of dispel magic. Targeted dispel targets the creature if you want to hit multiple effects on that creature, and area dispel doesn't hit items. I don't believe you can say "dispel his sword, armor, ring, ring, and belt" rather you'd have to hit him and let whatever magics are on him (generally being items) be dispelled in order.
Targeted Dispel: This functions as a targeted dispel magic, but it
can dispel one spell for every four caster levels you possess, starting
with the highest level spells and proceeding to lower level spells.
your right in that I can not dispel 5 objects. Greater dispel only increases the number of spells I can dispel. You could only dispel one object whether its greater dispel or just dispel. That is a choice. Read the paragraph that starts with "if the object that you..." in dispel magic. We would probably choose the lance.
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I would like to contend that that AM BARBARIAN wins the CMD side of thing here.
Can combos be created to beat him? Sure, people (finally) seem to be coming up with some valid combos and some acceptable assumptions.
But what I find gives power to AM BARBARIAN is the simple fact that:
His tactics don't change, really. He might need to adapt, but for the most part he doesn't need to do anything different. He sees, he rages, he charges, it dies.
If it was a 1st level wizard or a 20th level wizard, he's going to treat it pretty much the same. When he uses what ability will of course go with the flow of the combat, but, honestly, Barbarian wakes up, grabs his stick and he's ready. He could be naked and it not really change the outcome against the CASTYS as either they aren't attacking his AC or they have some way TO attack his AC and are still going to hit even if armored.
Besides the limiting Beast totem line, the barbarian still has plenty of open feats and rage powers too. Even his Archtype is fairly flexible.
But the Wizards have several things they have to do.
Be a Diviner.
Treat AM BARBARIAN as a 20th level threat EVERY time. If we put Am Barbarian back on the Dire bat, he could really just be some 8th level Shmoo. He doesn't have some sign over his head that says '20th level, cut loose or die'
And that's not even taking into consideration the likelihood of the wizard having the right spells memorized all the time, for sure. We conceed that you still have to wonder, really, you'd do all that just for one guy you see coming on the horizon on a bat...or a CR 10 dragon even?
If it was a GM gaming it (still ignoring the fluff but just running a Hackmaster set of encounters) and that is how the player wizard truly reacted he would be dead because 4th level characters would bleed his 9th level spell combos before anything interesting happened.
But the Barbarian...he just spends 1 to 5 rage rounds of his 50+ rounds, uses his CLW wand(s) and moves on to the next thing.
His tactics are viable. They are not part of some contrived scenerio.
AM BARBARIAN's build works against CASTYS and FIGHTYS. In group combat or Solo combat, he does pretty much the same time. On the first encounter or the 7th, he's ready to rock. That is a build that WOULD function in a high level party. Magicly locked door? Don't worry wizard, I spend 1 of my /50/ rage rounds and it's done.
There is no way to contain him. He CAN break out of Adamantine chains. He CAN chew through freaking bars. And he can do it in an Anti-magic field while drunk.
The wizard, sure, he's got options. Lots of them. But he has a greater margin of error. If he assumes AM BARBARIAN is not a 20th level mage killer he's toast. And even then, I'm not convinced that the Barbarian with a ring of Spell turning and the anti-negative levels broach is promised to die before his rage comes on.
But even then it doesn't matter. The barbarian is solid. He can be built without the dumped Int (or as Dumped) and have some skills, he can sunder magic, he can take hits, he can demolish most things in a round, he has more HP than a mountain, he can escape, naked, from most confinements. DR doesn't mean anything to him as he does enough damage to bypass it. He can, by the rules, even have a dragon freak'en cohort that really cuts down on transportation issues.
In short, he is a character that has SOLID options without needing spells. There are few realistic challenges he can't just brute force his way through and he doesn't require some well thought out plan or combo to do it. Magic items are really just gravy or protect against those really crappy 'hahah, gotya!' effects (like negative levels).
but you know, there are even rage powers that let you ignore ability damage and negative levels.
Does that mean he can do everything? No, of course not. But this is a character that scales. He starts bad ass. At 3rd level he can be doing +9 to hit with a MW weapon and PA and doing 2d8+12 with an Large Bastard Sword. At 6th level, he can dispell magic effects and if he can take 2 rounds between attempts, he can do it 15 to 20 times a DAY! Sorcerers and Oracles get it at the same level. Only wizards, witches and Clerics (Not even DRUIDS) get it sooner and then only by 1 level and sure as hell aren't doing it 15 times in a day, every day, any day.
There really is no sharp drop off of power gain for AM BARBARIAN. He levels, he gets cooler, gets more stuff and can still handle most things with reasonable gusto and unless there is some bizarre circumstance, he doesn't have the 'oooh, I prepared my 'puzzle solving spell list' not my 'world traveling' list today issues.
And if you don't agree with me, I would say just think on this.
If you hadn't read this thread and really considered what AM BARBARIAN could do and you saw him...would you take the steps people are just now after 20+ pages laying down that MAY (and I stress MAY) be able to beat him?
AM BARBARIAN didn't need to read this thread. He doesn't care WHAT caster build you go with. His tactics were the same before and after. Casters need to plan for him. He doesn't need to plan for them.
You are awesome. And correct.
If only the other martials could reach similar levels of awesome.
good thing dispell is against objects and not the barb. No worry of spell turning.Why he is exausted?I summoned 2 Planetars to both hit him with waves of exhaustion. That's when the discussion got bogged down and side tracked.
A ring of counter spell, or spell turning, could make the counter spell go very negatively for the wizard.
Don't care about this, is the direct spell you will probably cast. Only with summons I don't think you could win.
If you summon two planetars he will roll iniziative, and it's easy that he win against them (if not allowed to play his turn before they can act).If so, forget about killing him.
I would like to contend that that AM BARBARIAN wins the CMD side of thing here.
Can combos be created to beat him? Sure, people (finally) seem to be coming up with some valid combos and some acceptable assumptions.
But what I find gives power to AM BARBARIAN is the simple fact that:
His tactics don't change, really. He might need to adapt, but for the most part he doesn't need to do anything different. He sees, he rages, he charges, it dies.
If it was a 1st level wizard or a 20th level wizard, he's going to treat it pretty much the same. When he uses what ability will of course go with the flow of the combat, but, honestly, Barbarian wakes up, grabs his stick and he's ready. He could be naked and it not really change the outcome against the CASTYS as either they aren't attacking his AC or they have some way TO attack his AC and are still going to hit even if armored.
Besides the limiting Beast totem line, the barbarian still has plenty of open feats and rage powers too. Even his Archtype is fairly flexible.
But the Wizards have several things they have to do.
Be a Diviner.
Treat AM BARBARIAN as a 20th level threat EVERY time. If we put Am Barbarian back on the Dire bat, he could really just be some 8th level Shmoo. He doesn't have some sign over his head that says '20th level, cut loose or die'And that's not even taking into consideration the likelihood of the wizard having the right spells memorized all the time, for sure. We conceed that you still have to wonder, really, you'd do all that just for one guy you see coming on the horizon on a bat...or a CR 10 dragon even?
If it was a GM gaming it (still ignoring the fluff but just running a Hackmaster set of encounters) and that is how the player wizard truly reacted he would be dead because 4th level characters would bleed his 9th level spell combos before anything interesting happened.
But the Barbarian...he just spends 1 to 5 rage rounds of his 50+ rounds, uses his CLW wand(s) and moves on to the next thing.
His tactics are...
No.
It is not a problem of build, but rules' function. If AM can have his bat mount, wizard could do better (very very better).I state that this tactics are not for real RPG, it's just for fun. The main difference is that AM can have few tactics, and this is why it's always the same, but wizard can have a wide array of options. They can also use a clone the adjust tactic. Obviously this only if he can use all his efforts against this enemy. They know eachother? Another variant...
A barbarian is a character that works better how he is, a wizard can adapt if he can prepare.
Moreover, a character should be builded to go in adventure (with a party) and survive, here the purpose is just to kill a specific character. In game player take a lot of skill or feats because they want to enjoy even at low-middle levels, or maybe do roleplay or help the party. The way you interact with the environment is far more important than a single pvp. A good social character can make other people kill you, or ruin your life, because this is not a board game.
Considering the "rules" of this tread, if you make a build focusing only to this pvp the characters involved are not able to discover eachothers, and this is not a sophistication, surprise here means victory or death.
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Moreover, a character should be builded to go in adventure (with a party) and survive, here the purpose is just to kill a specific character. In game player take a lot of skill or feats because they want to enjoy even at low-middle levels, or maybe do roleplay or help the party. The way you interact with the environment is far more important than a single pvp. A good social character can make other people kill you, or ruin your life, because this is not a board game.
I would like to say. This barbarian is not statted or designed for PvP. This is the standard invulnerable rager barbarian for typical table top play. I am playing the same exact build (timing of choices may be different) in pathfinder society. This barbarian build rocks at all levels and in all situation. More than half of the rage powers chosen are not chosen to kill a wizard. He wouldn't need come and get me, reckless abandon, beast totem tree, and half a dozen other rage powers to kill a wizard. He is designed to survive in really bad situations and kill everything.
Here are my feat / rage power choices for my barbarian to lvl 12 (PFS stops at 12).
1)Feat - Raging Vitality
H)Feat - Power Attack
2)Rage - Lesser Beast Totem
3)Feat - Combat Reflexes
4)Rage - Reckless Abandon
5)Feat - Extra Rage Power - Superstition
6)Rage - Beast Totem
7)Feat - Extra Rage Power - Strength Surge
8)Rage - Witch Hunter
9)Feat - Extra Rage Power - Spell Sunder
10)Rage - Greater Beast Totem
11)Feat - Stunning Assault
12)Rage - Come and Get Me
So...he's more than half done and I have:
4 feats - None designed to combat casters
9 rage powers - 3 of which are designed for anti-caster and 6 of which are designed for for damage (Not really a needed thing against a caster with 80 hp)
The choices are very balanced and like I said....this will be extremely close if not exact to what AM BARBARIANS first 12 lvls are. And odly enough only 2 rage powers that he claimed to use are not on this list (ghost rager and eater of magic).
As for skills and non-combat. I have handle animal, survival, knowledge nature, knowledge local, and use magic device (AM BARBARIAN probably doesn't have this) along with some more combat oriented ones like acrobatics and perception. I don't get many skills but all of those can can help the party out (track, befriend animals, know stuff, cast from a wand).
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MANY MIGHTYFINE THINGS
SOMEONE AM GET IT. THIS AM CORE OF BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.
NAMELY, BARBARIAN START AWESOME; GET MORE AWESOME WITH LEVELS; AM PERFECT AWESOME AT 20TH.
AM ONE TIME BARBARIAN HAD TO DEAL WITH CASTY WHO HID IN CAVE FROM AM BARBARIAN. AM FUNNY STORY. CASTY NOT KNOW ABOUT BARBARIAN HAVING ENGINEERING DEGREE.
TWO SUNDERS LATER, AM FINDING OUT CASTYS NOT LIKE IT WHEN BARBARIAN DROP ENTIRE CAVE ON THEM.
CASTYS ARE SILLY.
HAVE MUCH HUGS, PROST-GUY.
P.S. SEMICOLON USE AM MIGHTYFINE TOO. MUCH LIKE PROST-GUY.
So,no feats like weapon focus,toughness,dodge,iron will,improved iron will,imp sunder,greater sunder,mounted combat,ride-by-attack,spirited charge or you are taking them later?
Probably will take improved sunder since it helps with spell sunder and turtle fighters (the bane of barbarians).
May take iron will (50:50 on this one).No to the rest - Don't need more hit. Don't care that much about AC. Not going the mounted path (I will find some other way to fly when needed).
Okay,ghost rager,eater of magic...than come and get me,smasher,clear mind,moment of clarity,roused rager?
Yes to Ghost rager and eater of magic. Already said Come and Get me (lvl 12).
No to the rest - Smasher only works on unattended items. Eater of magic is like clear mind for all saves and gives you temp HP (Its like all three of the improved save feats in one. Great power). Not to worried about healing mid combat (things will die too quickly) and if need be will just drop rage. Will probably grab a wand of lesser restoration to deal with fatigue.Seems some more feats and rage powers are mentioned in thread,but yea,its somethin like that.
Yeah...I missed some. Plenty of room though. My build has room for 4 more feats and 4 more rage powers (up to 8 more rage powers).
I just wanted to throw it out there to show that its not an anti-caster build. Its a kill everything build that fills in its weakest point (casters) with some decent rage powers.
Vasily, son of Hathcock
Halfling Ranger 20th level
Str: 18 Dex: 28 Con: 20 Int: 10 Wis: 20 Cha: 10
Skills that mater
Spellcraft: 23 - can identify 9th level spells on a 1
Stealth: 23 (ranks) 9(dex) 4(size) 15 (grater shadow) 6 (Skill Focus) =57
Perception: 23 (ranks) 5 (wis) 10 (robe of eyes) 2 (halfling) 6 (sf) = 46
60 points of other stuff
Feats (10 normal, 5 ranger acher feats)
1 Point Blank, 2 Precises Shot, 3 Improved Precise Shot, 4 WF: Longbow
5 Point Blank master, 6 Imp Crit:longbow, 7 Farshot, 8 Pinpoint Targeting,
9 Deadly Aim, 10 Many Shot, 11 Rapid Shot, 12 Clustered Shot, 13 SF (stealth) 14 SF (Perception) 15 Eagle Eyes
Racial: he grabs swift as shadows for sure-footed
Traits: magical knack for ranger - +2 caster level
Gear: Bracers of ac with Greater Shadow, Robe of Eyes, Ring of delayed doom, ring of spell turning, orange ioun stone,
Karma Prayer Bead, Belt of Physical Prefection, headband of wisdom, cloak of resistance+5, pearl of power 4th - Total gold for this incomplete gear list is 545,750
Still need to pick up a few more pearls of power, boots of haste, armor stuff and a weapon
Breakfast spells - pops the bead of karma and puts up the ioun stone- cl 24 - 24 hour longstrider, non-detection, treestride (24 jumps) and ant-haul, can put up terrain bond for 22 hours if need be (using pearl of power)
Tactics - "if you was to put me and this here longbow anywhere up to and including one mile of Elminister with a clear line of sight, sir...pack your bags, fellas, war's over. Amen. "
His favored terrain bonus stacks with stealth and perception, giving him a 65 stealth and a 54 perception. Non-detection makes it harder to locate him, and camouflage and hide in plain sight mean that he can stealth all the time.
Instant enemy allows him to force a dc 25 fort save on a target, or die. The save or die is only once a day. However it will also grant a +10 to hit and damage. Instant enemy is a swift action, and lasts 19 minutes, so that's a lot of shots on target.
He unfortunately needs to be closer then a mile, but if he rolls a 1 he can see a clear target a 600 ft, and will only have a -6 to hit.
I don't think pinpoint targeting and master hunter work together which is a bummer, but at mininum he's looking at a 44 to-hit (favored enemy, BAB, Dex and +5 bow).
He doesn't have much if someone just flee's. Acute Senses gives him a +30 to perception, and the robe of eyes sees invisiblilty, but against the invis+mind blank combo he will still have to move close, which gets a little scary. His will save is pretty bad, so if someone spots him he has to flee (tree stride + ring of delayed doom + ring of spell turning + some luck). But if this guy is after you, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it.
A build
You fool! The casters will nitpick you with their nebulous has everything always build! You've doomed us all!
...or just the ranger! Whatever!
Also, a 1 level oracle dip for the wind mystery will let you see 100 feet away as well as youc an see 10. May be worth it for that kind of perception.
A buildYou fool! The casters will nitpick you with their nebulous has everything always build! You've doomed us all!
...or just the ranger! Whatever!
Also, a 1 level oracle dip for the wind mystery will let you see 100 feet away as well as youc an see 10. May be worth it for that kind of perception.
His longbow can only shoot 1100 ft. He can get an 84 percpetion, and if I rig a spyglass to my longbow that would allow him to see someone at 1680 ft on a 1. Master hunter is pretty nice for it's ability to force a save or die against a weak save for arcane casters.
I like that the ranger has higher visible stealth than a wizard has standing still, invisible. Or about comparable if the wizard has maxed stealth, but w/e.
The ranger should just get himself some way of invisibility and he'll be the sneakiest bastard evah.
I like that the ranger has higher visible stealth than a wizard has standing still, invisible. Or about comparable if the wizard has maxed stealth, but w/e.
The ranger should just get himself some way of invisibility and he'll be the sneakiest bastard evah.
The problem with invisibility is it's pretty easy to see though, and would be crazy expensive to keep up while attacking. Though I could see switching out the ring of spell turning for a ring of invisibility when he's stalking his target.
AlecStorm, you said that if the Barbarian can have his bat, the Wizard can have "very, very better". Can you explain how? Clearly, it's not via binding or cohort.
Simple. A trained mount vs a pact with a summoned outsider (or worst, exploiting the mistakes of the rules).
If leadership, you use a feat for a mount, and the wizard for a 18th level fighter. Mmmh...
Deadly Aim is my #9 feat. They aren't listed in any real order. Discern location would also be an issue for him, you can use it off of an item that your target once owned. So he'd have to figure out some way to make the arrows get consumed, some of the magic arrows do that, it's plausible that a magic bow with corrosive would work as well.
Alecstorm, the thing about this PVP build is that it is a PVE build as well. As has been pointed out, these are all great options to take, perhaps even the optimal options to take, even when you're not built for just 1 fight against a wizard. I know if I were building a barbarian, even if the game would only ever go to level 10 I'd still take superstition and probably spell sunder. And can you argue that AM BARBARIAN hasn't been a blast when posting in character?
I didn't write about pvp or pve build. This is a nonsense in a RPG like Pathfinder. I said "1vs1 pvp for fun". Two fighter without a world, a story, a party. Builded directly at level 20. This is a very different thing from real play.
Think about a warrior protector (that you can do with archetype and feats). Very nice in a party, here got no sense (like a buffer, for example).
Moreover, a character should be builded to go in adventure (with a party) and survive, here the purpose is just to kill a specific character. In game player take a lot of skill or feats because they want to enjoy even at low-middle levels, or maybe do roleplay or help the party. The way you interact with the environment is far more important than a single pvp. A good social character can make other people kill you, or ruin your life, because this is not a board game.
I would like to say. This barbarian is not statted or designed for PvP. This is the standard invulnerable rager barbarian for typical table top play. I am playing the same exact build (timing of choices may be different) in pathfinder society. This barbarian build rocks at all levels and in all situation. More than half of the rage powers chosen are not chosen to kill a wizard. He wouldn't need come and get me, reckless abandon, beast totem tree, and half a dozen other rage powers to kill a wizard. He is designed to survive in really bad situations and kill everything.
Here are my feat / rage power choices for my barbarian to lvl 12 (PFS stops at 12).
1)Feat - Raging Vitality
H)Feat - Power Attack
2)Rage - Lesser Beast Totem
3)Feat - Combat Reflexes
4)Rage - Reckless Abandon
5)Feat - Extra Rage Power - Superstition
6)Rage - Beast Totem
7)Feat - Extra Rage Power - Strength Surge
8)Rage - Witch Hunter
9)Feat - Extra Rage Power - Spell Sunder
10)Rage - Greater Beast Totem
11)Feat - Stunning Assault
12)Rage - Come and Get MeSo...he's more than half done and I have:
4 feats - None designed to combat casters
9 rage powers - 3 of which are designed for anti-caster and 6 of which are designed for for damage (Not really a needed thing against a caster with 80 hp)The choices are very balanced and like I said....this will be extremely close if not exact to what AM BARBARIANS first 12 lvls are. And odly enough only 2 rage powers that he claimed to use are not on this list (ghost rager and eater of...
What I stated is not referred to AM, or maybe, not only. And this build does not contradict what I said. In fact, you don't mention sense motive (or intuition, whatever its name is). How can you recognize a bard that try to fool you? With rage powers?
I don't understand the distinction of pvp and pve. In pve you can't fight against a mage or a rogue? And, single pvp, mass pvp or what?This has not much sense... choose a role, take the class and make the build, then equip and play. If you select a class without any magic clue maybe you'll got some problem against magic, this is normal. The role of barbarian, fighter and paladin is to fight, fight and fight again. Monk, ranger and rogue go for the single kill.
What I stated is not referred to AM, or maybe, not only. And this build does not contradict what I said. In fact, you don't mention sense motive (or intuition, whatever its name is). How can you recognize a bard that try to fool you? With rage powers?
Am Barbarian stated he deals with diplomacy by hitting anything that talks for longer then 50 seconds. It's makes answering "HOW YOU DOINGS?" tense.
Smasher should work with Sunder, Lab_Rat
Smasher (Ex)
Benefit: Once per rage, whenever the barbarian makes an attack against an unattended object or a sunder combat maneuver, she can ignore the object’s hardness. This ability must be used before the attack roll or sunder check is made.
But Lab's build reinforces my point. In 2 levels (14) he could have all the rage powers AM has used. At 20th level, AM could have Scent and
Primal Scent (Ex)
Prerequisite: Barbarian 8, scent rage power
Benefit: When using her scent rage power, the barbarian adds half her barbarian level on Survival checks made to track by scent and on Perception checks to pinpoint the location of creatures she cannot see. If she pinpoints the location of a creature that has total concealment, she treats it as having concealment.
Mind Blank? Invis? Bah, get a +Survival item and he's tracking falcons on a cloudy day.
Or you could switch from being an Invulnerable Rager to an Superstitious Urban Barbarian and focus on AC and have some AMAZING senses (BlindSIGHT at 20th, with Scent to boot) and some Init boosts if that's more the fitting for the play style of the group.
Or several other archetypes that work. But in the end, it's pretty much the same. Maybe he goes mounted, maybe he doesn't.
What makes the Barbarian cool is he's rock solid by himself. He doesn't NEED magic items, really. Sure, they help. But AM BARBARIAN's lance damage with just a normal lance and without his +Str bonus belt is STILL going to be QUITE notable. I would wager he could easily break 150 points of damage in one round with it. Power attack and his rage strength make even DR 15/Epic pretty hohum.
And Lab_Rat's build has several useful Know stuff skills and 'do stuff' skills. The barbarians being discussed are hardly 'well, if it's indoors or not against a caster I am useless, guys.'
And that's just the barbarians.
Rangers, Paladins, Fighters, Monks all have their own blend of awesome. Monks are one of the most resilient and self-reliant classes. And you can become Nightcrawler now and who the hell doesn't find that cool?
Paladins are walking fortresses of can't be killed. They can self heal as a swift action, remove damn near all status effects and even raise the dead. If they take an Oath against Fiends they can even Dimensional Anchor and plane shift. Are they as powerful at all that as a cleric? No, but they have stupid high saves, good AC and can have amazing DPR against evil creatures to boot. You can make a party where the healer/remover of suck-effects IS the paladin.
Fighters are killing machines that are more than a feat dip class.
Are 9th level spells great? Sure, I don't think anyone would argue that.
Are they misread and given too much leeway at times? Yeah, I'd say so. But they are still great.
Are they needed? No. I really would say they are not. I think you can roll out with parties that have no 1 to 9th spell level casters and make it work. The Hybrid casters (1 to 6) and the martial (even rogues) have great options.
'Mages and Mooks' doesn't really seem to fit any more and THAT really is what CMD seems to be about, to me at least. Are there scenarios we can come up with where you NEED that 9th level spell or the world ends. Sure. What if AM BARBARIAN's party needs to go on an adventure that requires plane shift and he's just rolling with his BARBs and FIGHTYS. Well, I guess he doesn't go on that adventure. He also isn't doing the 'delicately defuse the political tension between two kingdoms so war doesn't erupt' adventure either with that group.
but he could. 2 Traits to make UMD and Diplo class skills and not dumping Cha and AM BARBARIAN can be a diplomatic machine that can use an item that plane shifts him to whatever plane he needs to smite the big bad. (Or become an Urban Barbarian. They get Diplo as a class skill)
Can every 20th level character do everything. No. Some can fake it better. But I am finding in pathfinder that now the Martials at 10th+ level can still do a lot of somethings. And usually the somethings they do are more efficient then when casters use spells to cheat around them, especially when it comes to combat.
And if the GM throws an adventure that requires an 8th level spell to solve and provides no reasonable way to achieve it (and not every 15th level primary caster has all 8th level spells, even wizards) then the party files the adventure in 'some other group's problem' and goes about causing trouble somewhere else.
But I would wager that there is NONE of the published adventure paths or mini-adventures that AM BARBARIAN could not thrive in, especially if he dumped CHA and/or INT just a little less as Lab_rat's build seemed to.
AM also pointed out that his ability to count to 50 is dodgy at best.
AM also pointed out that his ability to count to 50 is dodgy at best.
It's best to not even make eye contact.
1.) I assume by "pact", you're referring to planar binding. I'd like to see the build that let's wizards reliably do this over and over again so as to always have a mount "very, very better" than the bat.
2.) I'd like to see the build which assures a wizard of having a better cohort than a barbarian considering all the penalties to the leadership score wizards are prone to taking.
1) Pact is a pact. It's not important if you used planar binding first, or planar travel. But you can pretty easily talk with an outsider. Consider the amount of time to train the mount. You can take an evil outsider, and offer him a soul every 30 days, or similar.
Rules about polimorph object says that if you morph something into a dragon, magical beast or umanoid you refer to previous enchantment, not for outsider. You can became a solar when you have the right int score (not difficult for a mage) and do an analogue thing with your familiar.2) WHY a wizard (or better a sorcerer) shouldn't have a cohort like a barbarian? Wich penalties?
Am Barbarian stated he deals with diplomacy by hitting anything that talks for longer then 50 seconds. It's makes answering "HOW YOU DOINGS?" tense.
XD Funny, but just funny. Social skills rules.
The empty set is in both the set of martials and casters. It is also an element in the set of deities and is so powerful it does not have stats so it wins.
Also the empty set is like pun pun in that it is not meant to be played.
Vasily, son of Hathcock
...
Instant enemy allows him to force a dc 25 fort save on a target, or die. The save or die is only once a day. However it will also grant a +10 to hit and damage. Instant enemy is a swift action, and lasts 19 minutes, so that's a lot of shots on...
A very cool build.
Instant Enemy has a range of close (75 ft.), so he has to be near the enemy to pull off that trick.
Vasily, son of Hathcock
...
Instant enemy allows him to force a dc 25 fort save on a target, or die. The save or die is only once a day. However it will also grant a +10 to hit and damage. Instant enemy is a swift action, and lasts 19 minutes, so that's a lot of shots on...
A very cool build.
Instant Enemy has a range of close (75 ft.), so he has to be near the enemy to pull off that trick.
Vasily runs to 75ft and shoots you with an arrow. BOOOOOOOOO!!! Well I guess choice of favored enemies maters now.
Penalties to your leadership score include the penalty from your familiar.Familiars are for witches. Wizards should use bonded items for the ability to cast one spell per day spontaneously. Certainly the "I have the spell for that" builds should work that way.
And AM is using handle animal, not leadership. The wizard is using diplomacy and a circlet of persuasion, not leadership. A high level wizard is not without things to offer to even high level outsiders, at least those of the evil persuasion who can't planar travel on their own.
Compsognathus offers +4 to initiative at high levels you have enough useful spells so wouldn't +4 initiative be better?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/dinosaur.html#dinosau r,-compsognathus
Never mind, misread.