Caster-Martial Disparity Battleground - No Crying.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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For some reason, I want to stare this medusa in the face.

The other caster-martial disparity thread was very formal and well organized.

I want this thread to be a total clusterfunk.

So bring it.

You think casters rule the roost? Defend your case. (should be easy, you're right).

You think martials bring the pain, and casters will die without them? I'd like to see your evidence.

Dance, forums. Dance for my amusement!

EDIT: No personal attacks, nothing below the belt. If someone goes limp, or taps out, the fight is over.


What's sad is that people will fall for this.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

JUSTICE FRIENDS, ASSEMBLE!


Is this the The Gaming Den yet?


Oh, come on, we can't do this?

I promise I won't bite.


You show me a level 15 caster that can handle 20 encounters a day and still have the same performance in encounter 20 that they had in performance 1. Casters may have all them flashy spells, but they ain't go no endurance when it comes time to go the distance.

That's all I got. The only place where martial outperforms casters is in the department of consistant damage dealing. A level 10 fighter can put out 60 DPR every round all day long. A wizard can put out some decent damage, but after 2 or 3 rounds of combat, they are probably going to be running thin on damage spells. Even a sorcerer is going to have trouble doing damage after a couple of combats.

All the battlefield control in the world doesn't help if you can't put your opponents down for the count.

Liberty's Edge

Charender wrote:

You show me a level 15 caster that can handle 20 encounters a day and still have the same performance in encounter 20 that they had in performance 1. Casters may have all them flashy spells, but they ain't go no endurance when it comes time to go the distance.

That's all I got. The only place where martial outperforms casters is in the department of consistant damage dealing. A level 10 fighter can put out 60 DPR every round all day long. A wizard can put out some decent damage, but after 2 or 3 rounds of combat, they are probably going to be running thin on damage spells. Even a sorcerer is going to have trouble doing damage after a couple of combats.

All the battlefield control in the world doesn't help if you can't put your opponents down for the count.

And on the flip side of that no martial character can go through 20 encounters either, and personally I'd gamble that the meleers run out of hit points before the casters run out of spells.


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BARBARIAN HAVE BIG LANCE AND CHARGE ON DIRE BAT.

BARBARIAN WIN INITIATIVE.

BARBARIAN FINISH FIGHT WITH ONE ROUND RAGE AFTER POUNCE.

WIZARD PUNY AND SQUISHY. ALL HAIL MIGHTY BARBARIAN.


The reason there is a disparity is because it becomes easier to opt out of the resource management aspect of the game. Well and the fact that fighters suck.

If limits are only theoretical, if you never run out of 'charges' then it makes people who choose to hit things with sticks, or open things with pointy sticks less useful. I don't know if the system even really supports increasing the times between recharges enough that it matters though.

You can even look at a barbarian vs fighter, the barbarian while raging is comparable, or maybe even better in combat then the fighter, but rage rounds are limited. But quickly the barbarian gains enough rounds of rage that he can rage for every fight, and that limit on his ability is gone. And that's not taking into account all the other things he gains.

And the gulf grows even greater when taking into account a wizard vs fighter, but only if you can't make the wizard fear for his safety. I know in many of the games I play, caster types have a real fear of burning too many spells, cause you never know what's next. But as the wizard gains levels, his cushion of spells becomes a smaller portion of his overall spell total, and that safety net is less of a drain on his power.


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Andy Ferguson wrote:

The reason there is a disparity is because it becomes easier to opt out of the resource management aspect of the game. Well and the fact that fighters suck.

If limits are only theoretical, if you never run out of 'charges' then it makes people who choose to hit things with sticks, or open things with pointy sticks less useful. I don't know if the system even really supports increasing the times between recharges enough that it matters though.

You can even look at a barbarian vs fighter, the barbarian while raging is comparable, or maybe even better in combat then the fighter, but rage rounds are limited. But quickly the barbarian gains enough rounds of rage that he can rage for every fight, and that limit on his ability is gone. And that's not taking into account all the other things he gains.

And the gulf grows even greater when taking into account a wizard vs fighter, but only if you can't make the wizard fear for his safety. I know in many of the games I play, caster types have a real fear of burning too many spells, cause you never know what's next. But as the wizard gains levels, his cushion of spells becomes a smaller portion of his overall spell total, and that safety net is less of a drain on his power.

BARBARIAN RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE, AND PUT LANCE THROUGH FACE.

RAGEBARIAN THINK MAGES SQUISHY AND WEAK.


Trinam wrote:

BARBARIAN HAVE BIG LANCE AND CHARGE ON DIRE BAT.

BARBARIAN WIN INITIATIVE.

BARBARIAN FINISH FIGHT WITH ONE ROUND RAGE AFTER POUNCE.

WIZARD PUNY AND SQUISHY. ALL HAIL MIGHTY BARBARIAN.

Divination wizard laughs at your assumption of winning initiative. SHOWS YOU HIS AUTO 43 INITIATIVE (at lvl 20, but probably still wins at any lvl). Smites you where you hover....laughs maniacally again.


Lab_Rat wrote:
Trinam wrote:

BARBARIAN HAVE BIG LANCE AND CHARGE ON DIRE BAT.

BARBARIAN WIN INITIATIVE.

BARBARIAN FINISH FIGHT WITH ONE ROUND RAGE AFTER POUNCE.

WIZARD PUNY AND SQUISHY. ALL HAIL MIGHTY BARBARIAN.

Divination wizard laughs at your assumption of winning initiative. SHOWS YOU HIS AUTO 43 INITIATIVE (at lvl 20, but probably still wins at any lvl). Smites you where you hover....laughs maniacally again.

BARBARIAN ALWAYS MAKE SAVES. BARBARIAN AM HAVE GOOD ROLLS. SMITE SQUISHY WIZARD.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
And the gulf grows even greater when taking into account a wizard vs fighter, but only if you can't make the wizard fear for his safety. I know in many of the games I play, caster types have a real fear of burning too many spells, cause you never know what's next. But as the wizard gains levels, his cushion of spells becomes a smaller portion of his overall spell total, and that safety net is less of a drain on his power.

That's the sweet-spot for me as a GM, and I honestly wish this was on Page 1 of the GM chapter in the CRB.

It shouldn't be like that 100% of the time. Sometimes it should be worse in that the caster should be completely tapped out for caster-only reasons (fallen from grace with your deity, spellbook destroyed, dead-magic zone), and sometimes it should be the free-for-all caster playground that some GMs let run amok.

Timer + Reactive NPCs + multiple sequential encounters

It would actually be quite nice if there were some better guidelines for these three things in the rules. The problem with CR is that although it is a useful tool, it makes GMs and players start thinking in terms of single encounters.


Trinam's posts are my favorite in this thread.


Trinam wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Trinam wrote:

BARBARIAN HAVE BIG LANCE AND CHARGE ON DIRE BAT.

BARBARIAN WIN INITIATIVE.

BARBARIAN FINISH FIGHT WITH ONE ROUND RAGE AFTER POUNCE.

WIZARD PUNY AND SQUISHY. ALL HAIL MIGHTY BARBARIAN.

Divination wizard laughs at your assumption of winning initiative. SHOWS YOU HIS AUTO 43 INITIATIVE (at lvl 20, but probably still wins at any lvl). Smites you where you hover....laughs maniacally again.
BARBARIAN ALWAYS MAKE SAVES. BARBARIAN AM HAVE GOOD ROLLS. SMITE SQUISHY WIZARD.

No, No, No my friend. I did not make you save against anything. I just trapped you in a prismatic sphere with 2 Balors. 3 men enter, no men leave. Have fun. Re initiates maniacal laughing.


ShadowcatX wrote:
Charender wrote:

You show me a level 15 caster that can handle 20 encounters a day and still have the same performance in encounter 20 that they had in performance 1. Casters may have all them flashy spells, but they ain't go no endurance when it comes time to go the distance.

That's all I got. The only place where martial outperforms casters is in the department of consistant damage dealing. A level 10 fighter can put out 60 DPR every round all day long. A wizard can put out some decent damage, but after 2 or 3 rounds of combat, they are probably going to be running thin on damage spells. Even a sorcerer is going to have trouble doing damage after a couple of combats.

All the battlefield control in the world doesn't help if you can't put your opponents down for the count.

And on the flip side of that no martial character can go through 20 encounters either, and personally I'd gamble that the meleers run out of hit points before the casters run out of spells.

Before the caster runs out of spells, no.

Before the wizard runs out of damage spells, yes.

Wizards are the most versatile caster, but they are also usually spread very thin. Most wizards will not have a ton of damage dealing spells memorized. If forced into a situation where they have to be a primary damage dealer, they will run out of damage spells in 1 maybe 2 encounters tops.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

There wasn't any place to fit this in the other thread, but it should stoke the fire pretty well here.

Quote:


I never understand why people think high-level wizards are gods. They really aren't.

The archmages of the world don't kill the Zhents because the archmages of the world are glass cannons like every other wizard. A rogue with a scroll of Disjunction and some archers can turn a pack of the most powerful archmages in the world into dead meat. A dragon who knows antimagic field can body slam Eliminister. Hell, various spells just bust through or ignore various magic protections and are available to mid-level spellcasters of various types. The Zhents have their own spellcasters, some actual archmages and high clerics, and they are not a push-over. Heck, even the most dumpster-diving wizard can be killed by a Rogue even if a Fighter is going to have trouble sealing the deal.

As for teleport, I stand by my argument that you can still tell stories with it. Star Trek has decades of stories that prove that it's possible, and their teleportation has a lot fewer restrictions than many other settings. I mean, just because there are teleport circles scattered around the world it doesn't mean that they aren't controlled by dangerous forces AND happen to go to the spots where adventures happen. You can just say "Scrying isn't enough for a teleport" and suddenly scry and die vanishes. Literally, the problems with teleport can be fixed with a sentence or two.

As for the argument that the existence of high-level characters invalidates the work of low-level ones, I have to call foul again. People seem to love this argument, even though it has the assumption built into it that high-level characters know about every danger in the world AND aren't currently involved in some other adventure AND care enough to get out of bed for things that can be handled by lower-level characters.

High-level characters with access to magic rule the world and wizards are just one member in that pantheon.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I, the Wizard scoff at the barbarians poor grammar. I feel his need to make saving throws in the first place reflects a lack of precise planning. As a high level God Wizard, I do believe if you have to roll dice at all then you are doing something decidedly wrong.

You see, my foes are unable to see me (improved invisibilty), unable to touch me (hooray for flight), unable to resist me (gotta love ranged touch spells), and by the time they know they are fighting me, they already lost.


Kolokotroni wrote:

I, the Wizard, scoff at the barbarian's poor grammar. I feel his need to make saving throws in the first place reflects a lack of precise planning. As a high level God Wizard, I do believe if you have to roll dice at all then you are doing something decidedly wrong.

You see, my foes are unable to see me (improved invisibilty), unable to touch me (hooray for flight), unable to resist me (gotta love ranged touch spells), and by the time they know they are fighting me, they have already lost.

:P


Lab_Rat wrote:
Trinam wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Trinam wrote:

BARBARIAN HAVE BIG LANCE AND CHARGE ON DIRE BAT.

BARBARIAN WIN INITIATIVE.

BARBARIAN FINISH FIGHT WITH ONE ROUND RAGE AFTER POUNCE.

WIZARD PUNY AND SQUISHY. ALL HAIL MIGHTY BARBARIAN.

Divination wizard laughs at your assumption of winning initiative. SHOWS YOU HIS AUTO 43 INITIATIVE (at lvl 20, but probably still wins at any lvl). Smites you where you hover....laughs maniacally again.
BARBARIAN ALWAYS MAKE SAVES. BARBARIAN AM HAVE GOOD ROLLS. SMITE SQUISHY WIZARD.
No, No, No my friend. I did not make you save against anything. I just trapped you in a prismatic sphere with 2 Balors. 3 men enter, no men leave. Have fun. Re initiates maniacal laughing.

Oh...Did I mention I do this while your sleeping. I am big brother with an instant strike force.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Play reactively and you'll never crack the game.

Play proactively and you'll smash it to dust.


Got in before the thread lock!!


*Casts haste and cure moderate wounds on Trinam*


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Got in before the thread lock!!
the forum rules wrote:


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• Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.

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Why would they lock us out? It's a totally valid topic of discussion, prefaced with a preference for irreverence.

A move to off-topic is pretty much inevitable, but not yet — there's some on-topic things I want to get off my chest still.

But a lock? That would be uncalled for.


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Guys the barb is on a dire bat (flying, blindsense) and prismatic sphere is centered on the wizard, so if two balors, one human enter, no human leave, that would suggest that int may have been a dump stat for the wizard. Also, he already said he killed you, so you lost. Caps lock beats logic.

I do think more talking about how to make 'Timer + Reactive NPCs + multiple sequential encounters' would be useful for higher level play when there is some balance.


Seriously though

Is C-M D still something that bothers people? Do you still encounter people who have this perception, or try to act on it?

I don't often hear the case that Pathfinder has "fixed" the disparity. To me it seems like some people really like to play casters, and they think that other people are silly for not wanting to play casters...

Is this a flaw in the game's design, or merely arrogance on the part of caster-advocates?

Yeah, this is the same old conversation. So? Let's do it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lab_Rat wrote:
Trinam wrote:
BARBARIAN ALWAYS MAKE SAVES. BARBARIAN AM HAVE GOOD ROLLS. SMITE SQUISHY WIZARD.
No, No, No my friend. I did not make you save against anything. I just trapped you in a prismatic sphere with 2 Balors. 3 men enter, no men leave. Have fun. Re initiates maniacal laughing.

BARBARIAN AM HAVE SPELL SUNDER. LANCE AM DRILL TO PIERCE HEAVENS.

BARBARIAN WIFE YELLING AT BARBARIAN, SO SQUISHY GET LIVE TODAY. NO TIME TO STAB FACES.


Andy Ferguson wrote:

Guys the barb is on a dire bat (flying, blindsense) and prismatic sphere is centered on the wizard, so if two balors, one human enter, no human leave, that would suggest that int may have been a dump stat for the wizard. Also, he already said he killed you, so you lost. Caps lock beats logic.

I do think more talking about how to make 'Timer + Reactive NPCs + multiple sequential encounters' would be useful for higher level play when there is some balance.

That along with situations that force casters to actually deal damage. Making a caster deal damage really forces them to burn through spells a lot faster.


This thread needs Ashiel and whoever-it-was he was fighting with in the creep thread.

I want to see them throw down.

And I wouldn't mind some AMiB too. I love the way he matter-of-factly calls me an idiot. He's right, and therefore I trust him.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I often get the feeling that discussions of caster superiority and adversarial balance analysis are the province of players. Players who never GM.

Anyone else get that sense?

(too much coffee and I'm feeling like a total prick today, watchout!)


Charender wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:

Guys the barb is on a dire bat (flying, blindsense) and prismatic sphere is centered on the wizard, so if two balors, one human enter, no human leave, that would suggest that int may have been a dump stat for the wizard. Also, he already said he killed you, so you lost. Caps lock beats logic.

I do think more talking about how to make 'Timer + Reactive NPCs + multiple sequential encounters' would be useful for higher level play when there is some balance.

That along with situations that force casters to actually deal damage. Making a caster deal damage really forces them to burn through spells a lot faster.

Hm. Can we add to this chain?

Notes for the High-level Guide, if the devs were reckless enough to wander into this horrible thread...


Henceforth, any thread that gets jacked by the C-M D should exile the offending posters to this thread. Yes.

Here, we welcome the same arguments over and over and over.


Five posts.


Well it would seem that a GM could, with a bit of planning sway the balance of power any way he wants, so I would agree that it's more about players saying casters are the bomb, or beat sticks rule the school.

It also worth noting that a caster being selfish has a greater 'footprint' then a beat-stick. If the wizard casts fly on the first round of combat instead of haste, you notice it. If the fighter runs over and hits a dude in the corner instead of forming a bulwark against evil that's waiting to descend on the party, it's less noticeable.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
It also worth noting that a caster being selfish has a greater 'footprint' then a beat-stick. If the wizard casts fly on the first round of combat instead of haste, you notice it. If the fighter runs over and hits a dude in the corner instead of forming a bulwark against evil that's waiting to descend on the party, it's less noticeable.

This is an excellent point...

But the selfish caster is more likely to waste actions buffing and saving his own hide...

And it takes more spells/rounds to make a caster able to do direct damage effectively (see Charender's last post)

So if you have a sequence of encounters with a reactive NPC, the caster is going to hurt quite a bit from having been selfish. If you have a lazy GM who only devises one encounter at a time, you'd be stupid NOT to play a selfish caster.

Don't get me wrong, this whole paradigm still views martials as tools for the caster to employ. The caster is still the driving force, I'm not contesting that even for a moment.

But something tells me that, narratively, if Gandalf had said "screw the party, I'm a demi-god I'll take care of this myself" then he would have been targeted and destroyed quite quickly. Of course, there are so many narrative conceits in that book it's useless to make a logical case with them, BUT: sequential encounters + timer + reactive NPCs do create a similar atmosphere to LotR. That being, a powerful wizard restraining his powers "just in case", and a party of mere mortals doing everything that doesn't require his godly intervention.

I do love TreantMonk's take on the whole thing.


Food for thought. What would a creature that requires a wizard to kill it directly look like?

High DR, AC, and avoidance of physical attacks. High enough that most melee types will be a neusance to it.
Unlike golems, make it vulnerable to most spells.
Give it the ability to be able to threaten the caster while ignoring the melee dimension door, fly, etc.

Hmm, sounds like another caster.....


Evil Lincoln wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Got in before the thread lock!!
the forum rules wrote:


In order to keep our messageboards friendly and fun, here are some reminders about our policies:

• Do not use profanity or vulgar speech;
• Do not make bigoted, hateful, or racially insensitive statements;
• Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others;
• Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
• Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.

Violating any of these rules may result in suspension or permanent removal from our messageboards.

Why would they lock us out? It's a totally valid topic of discussion, prefaced with a preference for irreverence.

A move to off-topic is pretty much inevitable, but not yet — there's some on-topic things I want to get off my chest still.

But a lock? That would be uncalled for.

Because no one ever breaks the rules? interesting.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Evil Lincoln wrote:


Is C-M D still something that bothers people?

C-M D ?

Evil Lincoln wrote:

I often get the feeling that discussions of caster superiority and adversarial balance analysis are the province of players. Players who never GM.

Anyone else get that sense?

(too much coffee and I'm feeling like a total prick today, watchout!)

Yes, I do.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Charender wrote:

Food for thought. What would a creature that requires a wizard to kill it directly look like?

High DR, AC, and avoidance of physical attacks. High enough that most melee types will be a neusance to it.
Unlike golems, make it vulnerable to most spells.
Give it the ability to be able to threaten the caster while ignoring the melee dimension door, fly, etc.

Hmm, sounds like another caster.....

I think that the last Order of the Stick is very appropriate.

Vaarsuvius speech is perfect.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:


Is C-M D still something that bothers people?

C-M D ?

C-M D= CASTER-MARTIAL DISPARITY.


Charender wrote:
That along with situations that force casters to actually deal damage. Making a caster deal damage really forces them to burn through spells a lot faster.

Good wizards don't deal damage typically. Good wizards especially don't deal damage through evocation spells. If a wizard needs to kill something himself (no melee beat-stick around), he disables it per usual and then uses Summon Monster "X" to put it down.

Summon Monster "X" is a round by round damage spell that also acts as a road-block and a HP sponge. Why use fireball?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
High-level characters with access to magic rule the world and wizards are just one member in that pantheon.

This is the post where someone rejoinders with the old chestnut of where did all that magic come from? From casters being the most common answer so in essence even the martials need the casters to fight other casters.

Yawn

Curse you EL for making the most non-popcorn popcorn thread so far.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Charender wrote:

Food for thought. What would a creature that requires a wizard to kill it directly look like?

High DR, AC, and avoidance of physical attacks. High enough that most melee types will be a neusance to it.
Unlike golems, make it vulnerable to most spells.
Give it the ability to be able to threaten the caster while ignoring the melee dimension door, fly, etc.

Hmm, sounds like another caster.....

I think that the last Order of the Stick is very appropriate.

Vaarsuvius speech is perfect.

It is very telling that it takes an even more prepared wizard to defeat another wizard. Her use of the minion is also a fine example, it's a wizard's world, everyone else are just tools in her toolbox.

P.S. You can also tell the Drow Wizard was set up to lose by the DM, for he should have turned the wizard to stone in round 1 and used a simple windwall to protect himself from the archer.


Me likes casters. Spit-roasted. Magic flavor.

Tasty casters.


Lab_Rat wrote:
Trinam wrote:

BARBARIAN HAVE BIG LANCE AND CHARGE ON DIRE BAT.

BARBARIAN WIN INITIATIVE.

BARBARIAN FINISH FIGHT WITH ONE ROUND RAGE AFTER POUNCE.

WIZARD PUNY AND SQUISHY. ALL HAIL MIGHTY BARBARIAN.

Divination wizard laughs at your assumption of winning initiative. SHOWS YOU HIS AUTO 43 INITIATIVE (at lvl 20, but probably still wins at any lvl). Smites you where you hover....laughs maniacally again.

The 'respectfully' from the shouting barbararian made me laugh (well, wheeze and chortle, seeing as I'm asthmatic and over 40). Thanks, my coworkers now probably think I'm crazy (and in need of an inhaler).


Diego Rossi wrote:
Charender wrote:

Food for thought. What would a creature that requires a wizard to kill it directly look like?

High DR, AC, and avoidance of physical attacks. High enough that most melee types will be a neusance to it.
Unlike golems, make it vulnerable to most spells.
Give it the ability to be able to threaten the caster while ignoring the melee dimension door, fly, etc.

Hmm, sounds like another caster.....

I think that the last Order of the Stick is very appropriate.

Vaarsuvius speech is perfect.

Yeah, that comic was in the back of my mind when I wrote that.


Cibulan wrote:
It is very telling that it takes an even more prepared wizard to defeat another wizard. Her use of the minion is also a fine example, it's a wizard's world, everyone else are just tools in her toolbox.

Amen.

However, some people don't mind being the pawn of another PC. Honestly, splitting heads can be great fun, and being a really effective minion can be rewarding — especially if you don't have the patience for Pathfinder's magic system. Plenty of good players don't.


Unfortunately, in Pathfinder casters still dominate the noncasters. It's a shame Paizo didn't make more changes from 3.5e. It feels like they were afraid to switch things up to avoid upsetting some of the 3e grognards.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Evil Lincoln wrote:


I don't often hear the case that Pathfinder has "fixed" the disparity.

I don't think anyone as seriously made the claim that Pathfinder eliminated the inherent gulf between casters and noncasters, particurlarly at high level. There has been some lessening of the gulf, certain spells and abilities have become nerfed and the martials have been given some new tricks, but no D20 based system can ever truly eliminate such things.

There are factors that can impede or exaggerate the imbalance though.

1. Magic rulings. Be totally strict on rulings of magic, if in doubt err towards the "no" answer.

2. Item creation, be ware of custom item creation especially the smorgasboard of effects piled on one item. if the caster level of the item is low be aware of this for dispel effects.

3. The 15 minute day. Spellcasters benefit more from this than the martials do. If your group is getting 15 min days it's either irrelevant or your pacing is wrong.

4. Magicmart. There are those who claim taking this out hurts the martials more than the casters. However Magicmart also includes unrestricted spell acquisition. You control by large the rate in how casters gain new spells.


Cibulan wrote:
Charender wrote:
That along with situations that force casters to actually deal damage. Making a caster deal damage really forces them to burn through spells a lot faster.

Good wizards don't deal damage typically. Good wizards especially don't deal damage through evocation spells. If a wizard needs to kill something himself (no melee beat-stick around), he disables it per usual and then uses Summon Monster "X" to put it down.

Summon Monster "X" is a round by round damage spell that also acts as a road-block and a HP sponge. Why use fireball?

Summon monster is a great HP sponge and roadblock, but as far is damage goes it is kinda weak. If you have augment summoning and superior summoning, then your summons almost become a decent source of damage. A lot of wizard will not have either of those feats.

Example, summon monster 4 gives you one CR3 celestial lion. If you are casting summon monster 4, you are level 7, and probably facing CR8 or 9 encounters. A pouncing CR3 lion against most CR8 opponents generates what we affectionately refer to as a flurry of misses.

At level 9, with augment summoning and superior summoning, you can use summon monster 5 to give you 1d3+1 celestial lions, but by that point you are facing CR9 and 10 opponents. The lions need 18+ to land a hit.

I put a master summoner build in the DPR thread. If you have augment summoning and superior summoning and you buff your summons with mass bull's strength, then you start doing some real damage, but without those feats and buffs, most martial character will just ignore your meat shields in favor of going after the source. If I have mobility, I won't even bother to tumble because your summons will need a natural 20 to hit me with an AoO.

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