Caster-Martial Disparity Battleground - No Crying.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
How do you summon 2 CR 20+ creatures with one spell? What spell does that?

He's using dominate monster to telepathically communicate with the ancient CR20 gold dragons that have greater teleport. Of course he would have to give a pretty good description of where he is. Is that a standard action per dragon to communicate it effectively? Then they have to cast greater teleport and can start initiative. Of course that's after the time stop because they are not affected by it like the wizard so he can't communicate with them yet.


Sarrion wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
How do you summon 2 CR 20+ creatures with one spell? What spell does that?
He's using dominate monster to telepathically communicate with the ancient CR20 gold dragons that have greater teleport. Of course he would have to give a pretty good description of where he is. Is that a standard action per dragon to communicate it effectively? Then they have to cast greater teleport and can start initiative. Of course that's after the time stop because they are not affected by it like the wizard so he can't communicate with them yet.

Pretty much. Although, like I said, you can always just default to casting Gate. Less work, but also less payoff.


If the Barbarian is coming in to strike, the first thing that needs to be established is how long it's going to take before he hits.

I see 4 rounds of casting wall of force, 2 rounds of Gate (one for each Balor), one round of Power Word Kill (against the bat), ..

As a spectator, I want to know if I've got time to prepare a four course meal. The Barbarian might want to sit for dinner before the Wizard is ready.


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Sarrion wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
How do you summon 2 CR 20+ creatures with one spell? What spell does that?
He's using dominate monster to telepathically communicate with the ancient CR20 gold dragons that have greater teleport. Of course he would have to give a pretty good description of where he is. Is that a standard action per dragon to communicate it effectively? Then they have to cast greater teleport and can start initiative. Of course that's after the time stop because they are not affected by it like the wizard so he can't communicate with them yet.

What will be funny is when the barbarian spell sunders the dominate monsters and now the mage has to fight the barbarian plus the +24 will save SR31 15th level casters adn bruisers all over again. And no they aren't going to side with the mage.


LilithsThrall wrote:

If the Barbarian is coming in to strike, the first thing that needs to be established is how long it's going to take before he hits.

I see 4 rounds of casting wall of force, 2 rounds of Gate (one for each Balor), one round of Power Word Kill (against the bat), ..

As a spectator, I want to know if I've got time to prepare a four course meal. The Barbarian might want to sit for dinner before the Wizard is ready.

I see you missed the part where I cast Time Stop.


Also, they would be flat-footed if he went first. How are they slamming him after his first attack? Even if he didn't kill all of them, at least 2 of them would be dead.

Rapid shot, two weapon fighting with a hand cross bow and throwing axes, haste + stats + weapon buffs. A very possible 80d6 sneak attack.

level 20 wizard = 20d6 + con. x4

8 attacks, 10d6 sneak attack + stat + weapon and enchantments.

You could easily down some squishy wizards.

Or just go ninja for shurikens.

Unless you are assuming, that the wizards are completely clairvoyance and know to prepare spells, not on their turn....

Theory vs practice.


Sarrion wrote:
He's using dominate monster to telepathically communicate with the ancient CR20 gold dragons that have greater teleport. Of course he would have to give a pretty good description of where he is. Is that a standard action per dragon to communicate it effectively? Then they have to cast greater teleport and can start initiative. Of course that's after the time stop because they are not affected by it like the wizard so he can't communicate with them yet.

Where is he getting 2 ancient CR20 gold dragons?

I want a Tarasque.


TarkXT wrote:
Sarrion wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
How do you summon 2 CR 20+ creatures with one spell? What spell does that?
He's using dominate monster to telepathically communicate with the ancient CR20 gold dragons that have greater teleport. Of course he would have to give a pretty good description of where he is. Is that a standard action per dragon to communicate it effectively? Then they have to cast greater teleport and can start initiative. Of course that's after the time stop because they are not affected by it like the wizard so he can't communicate with them yet.
What will be funny is when the barbarian spell sunders the dominate monsters and now the mage has to fight the barbarian plus the +24 will save SR31 15th level casters adn bruisers all over again. And no they aren't going to side with the mage.

Taking a round off to attempt to Sunder a spell, which is not guaranteed to work by any means, while being full attacked by two ancient Dragons?

tell me how that works out for you.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Sarrion wrote:
He's using dominate monster to telepathically communicate with the ancient CR20 gold dragons that have greater teleport. Of course he would have to give a pretty good description of where he is. Is that a standard action per dragon to communicate it effectively? Then they have to cast greater teleport and can start initiative. Of course that's after the time stop because they are not affected by it like the wizard so he can't communicate with them yet.

Where is he getting 2 ancient CR20 gold dragons?

I want a Tarasque.

Scry + teleport into their layer + dominate monster. Done.

Also, if I remember correctly the Tarrasque has a very bad will save, so it would be even easier to get.


Divergent wrote:


Taking a round off to attempt to Sunder a spell, which is not guaranteed to work by any means, while being full attacked by two ancient Dragons?
tell me how that works out for you.

Extremely well. I don't think you've been reading this thread at all. You were better off with the balor's.

Keep in mind you had to dominate them to begin with. That's the story I want to hear.


Lockgo wrote:

Also, they would be flat-footed if he went first. How are they slamming him after his first attack? Even if he didn't kill all of them, at least 2 of them would be dead.

Rapid shot, two weapon fighting with a hand cross bow and throwing axes, haste + stats + weapon buffs. A very possible 80d6 sneak attack.

level 20 wizard = 20d6 + con. x4

8 attacks, 10d6 sneak attack + stat + weapon and enchantments.

You could easily down some squishy wizards.

Or just go ninja for shurikens.

Unless you are assuming, that the wizards are completely clairvoyance and know to prepare spells, not on their turn....

Theory vs practice.

One of the Wizards is a Divination specialist, so he acts in the surprise round. Dispel magic + quickened hold person. Also, if the wizards were wary, they would probably have Foresight up, which means they would know they are about to be attacked, so yes, they would be slamming you fairly quickly.

Theory vs practice. . .


Also, you wasted time killing the rogue. Just as planned!

Scrying takes an hour. Are you doing this before combat? Can I have an hour to prepare an arena for the wizard?


TarkXT wrote:
Divergent wrote:


Taking a round off to attempt to Sunder a spell, which is not guaranteed to work by any means, while being full attacked by two ancient Dragons?
tell me how that works out for you.

Extremely well. I don't think you've been reading this thread at all. You were better off with the balor's.

Keep in mind you had to dominate them to begin with. That's the story I want to hear.

It's funny, it's almost like I don't have the ability to teleport away presuming things don't go my way. Convenient, isn't that? Anyhoo, solve the Balor problem. Really, two Balors spring up in front of you and start attacking. And then while you are attacking them, I summon up some more monsters. It's just a matter of time really, you can sunder all the spells you like, but you're still going to die.


Lockgo wrote:

Also, you wasted time killing the rogue. Just as planned!

Scrying takes an hour. Are you doing this before combat? Can I have an hour to prepare an arena for the wizard?

Foresight- Standard action. Lasts for 10 mins a level. Not exactly hard to set up.


Divergent wrote:

Scry + teleport into their layer + dominate monster. Done.

Against two CR20 critters? Just like that?

They'd eat you before you even got to the Barbarian.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:

Scry + teleport into their layer + dominate monster. Done.

Against two CR20 critters? Just like that?

They'd eat you before you even got to the Barbarian.

Not both at once, obviously.

That would just be silly.


Lockgo wrote:

Also, you wasted time killing the rogue. Just as planned!

Scrying takes an hour. Are you doing this before combat? Can I have an hour to prepare an arena for the wizard?

Also, you aren't exactly disproving my point. Wizards with preparation > wizards without preparation. This has been proven before. The inclusion of the Rogue doesn't really change anything, you could substitute him out for any other summoned monster easily and not have to change your battle plan at all.


Divergent wrote:
Lockgo wrote:

Also, you wasted time killing the rogue. Just as planned!

Scrying takes an hour. Are you doing this before combat? Can I have an hour to prepare an arena for the wizard?

Foresight- Standard action. Lasts for 10 mins a level. Not exactly hard to set up.

Never the less, you are buffing BEFORE COMBAT! Let me just go to the store and buy a bunch of buffs for my characters. Also, how does that make scrying take less then an hour?


Divergent wrote:
Lockgo wrote:

Also, you wasted time killing the rogue. Just as planned!

Scrying takes an hour. Are you doing this before combat? Can I have an hour to prepare an arena for the wizard?

Foresight- Standard action. Lasts for 10 mins a level. Not exactly hard to set up.

So, just to keep track, we've got

1 Power Word Kill
1 Time Stop
1 Foresight (which only lasts 3 hours. Do you plan to cast it 8 times or just blindly hope that the 3 hours it is up over the 24 hour day cover the time that the Barbarian is going to attack?
and possibly 2 Gates

So, 5 9th level spells before combat has started.

At this rate, the Barbarian just has to come over and eat some of my dinner with me and wait for your spell durations to end.


I like the idea of spell sundering the dominate monster. Though the barbarian would have to know that they are dominated.


Divergent wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:

Scry + teleport into their layer + dominate monster. Done.

Against two CR20 critters? Just like that?

They'd eat you before you even got to the Barbarian.

Not both at once, obviously.

That would just be silly.

And singlehandedly waltzing into a CR20 Dragon's lair (even with scrying - assuming you can scry into their lair and that they didn't ward it from that kind of stuff) - doing it twice in a row - isn't silly?


Lockgo wrote:
Divergent wrote:
Lockgo wrote:

Also, you wasted time killing the rogue. Just as planned!

Scrying takes an hour. Are you doing this before combat? Can I have an hour to prepare an arena for the wizard?

Foresight- Standard action. Lasts for 10 mins a level. Not exactly hard to set up.
Never the less, you are buffing BEFORE COMBAT! Let me just go to the store and buy a bunch of buffs for my characters. Also, how does that make scrying take less then an hour?

Considering your rogue is already buffed up, I'd say that's a moot point.

Also, I never mentioned anything about scrying.

-Lilith

Didn't say power word kill the rogue, just hold person/dominate/wall of stone/whatever else you can think of to get him away from your allies, then teleport out of danger.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:

Scry + teleport into their layer + dominate monster. Done.

Against two CR20 critters? Just like that?

They'd eat you before you even got to the Barbarian.

Not both at once, obviously.

That would just be silly.

And singlehandedly waltzing into a CR20 Dragon's lair (even with scrying - assuming you can scry into their lair and that they didn't ward it from that kind of stuff) - doing it twice in a row - isn't silly?

Not really. Simalacrum, Astral Projection, Ethereal Form, etc. You're never in any real danger, and you cast Time Stop to lay the whammy on him at the start of the battle anyways.


Divergent wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


It's funny, it's almost like I don't have the ability to teleport away presuming things don't go my way. Convenient, isn't that? Anyhoo, solve the Balor problem. Really, two Balors spring up in front of you and start attacking. And then while you are attacking them, I summon up some more monsters. It's just a matter of time really, you can sunder all the spells you like, but you're still going to die.

Nooooo I don't think you've read this thread at all.

And honestly all this scrying and summoning and time stopping is kind of a waste. If you have the ability to scry and teleport anywhere at will teleport into AM BARBARIANS house while sleeping and slap him with the nastiest coup de grace spell you can. Yes, the best way to win is to pray he doesn't wake up. Worse, pray he doesn't wake up and mistake you for teddy bear or lover.

@Sarrion: Trueee but he doesn't have to since they jsut "magically appear" our poor ignorant barbarian would just do it out of habit because people keep summoning things in front of him.


Time Stop:

Description:

Time Stop

School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 9; Domain trickery 9
CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
EFFECT

Range personal
Target you
Duration 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

Based on the spell description, you can't harm or target the creature at all with attacks or spells. What whammy spells are you laying on him?


Divergent wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:

Scry + teleport into their layer + dominate monster. Done.

Against two CR20 critters? Just like that?

They'd eat you before you even got to the Barbarian.

Not both at once, obviously.

That would just be silly.

And singlehandedly waltzing into a CR20 Dragon's lair (even with scrying - assuming you can scry into their lair and that they didn't ward it from that kind of stuff) - doing it twice in a row - isn't silly?
Not really. Simalacrum, Astral Projection, Ethereal Form, etc. You're never in any real danger, and you cast Time Stop to lay the whammy on him at the start of the battle anyways.

Those spells aren't instant guarantees. So, now you've got a slim to none chance of taking out two ancient Gold Dragons, you've cast a 6th 9th level spell and I've lost count how many 8th and 7th level spells you've cast.

This is getting too ridiculous for me.


TarkXT wrote:
Divergent wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


It's funny, it's almost like I don't have the ability to teleport away presuming things don't go my way. Convenient, isn't that? Anyhoo, solve the Balor problem. Really, two Balors spring up in front of you and start attacking. And then while you are attacking them, I summon up some more monsters. It's just a matter of time really, you can sunder all the spells you like, but you're still going to die.

Nooooo I don't think you've read this thread at all.

And honestly all this scrying and summoning and time stopping is kind of a waste. If you have the ability to scry and teleport anywhere at will teleport into AM BARBARIANS house while sleeping and slap him with the nastiest coup de grace spell you can. Yes, the best way to win is to pray he doesn't wake up. Worse, pray he doesn't wake up and mistake you for teddy bear or lover.

@Sarrion: Trueee but he doesn't have to since they jsut "magically appear" our poor ignorant barbarian would just do it out of habit because people keep summoning things in front of him.

I'll admit, I kind of skipped forward after the 5th page, but that doesn't really change my point. Casters > non-casters. That doesn't mean the Barbarian is worthless, just not as world-breakingly powerful as a Wizard.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:

Scry + teleport into their layer + dominate monster. Done.

Against two CR20 critters? Just like that?

They'd eat you before you even got to the Barbarian.

Not both at once, obviously.

That would just be silly.

And singlehandedly waltzing into a CR20 Dragon's lair (even with scrying - assuming you can scry into their lair and that they didn't ward it from that kind of stuff) - doing it twice in a row - isn't silly?

And imagine you managed to catch the gold dragon merely sitting on a pile of ancient priceless legal documents being all majestic and awe inspiring he probably already saw your scrying sensor with a +40 perception check assuming you bust his +24 will save and 31SR from the start the dragon merely readies an action to drop an antimagic field on himself and then rends you limb from limb as you try and catch him unaware. Because, unfortunately for you, he's still a freaking dragon.

Yeah, better stick to the Balors.


Sarrion wrote:

Time Stop: ** spoiler omitted **

Based on the spell description, you can't harm or target the creature at all with attacks or spells. What whammy spells are you laying on him?

Prismatic Wall right above his head, delayed blast fireballs, summoned monsters, whatever.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:

Scry + teleport into their layer + dominate monster. Done.

Against two CR20 critters? Just like that?

They'd eat you before you even got to the Barbarian.

Not both at once, obviously.

That would just be silly.

And singlehandedly waltzing into a CR20 Dragon's lair (even with scrying - assuming you can scry into their lair and that they didn't ward it from that kind of stuff) - doing it twice in a row - isn't silly?
Not really. Simalacrum, Astral Projection, Ethereal Form, etc. You're never in any real danger, and you cast Time Stop to lay the whammy on him at the start of the battle anyways.

Those spells aren't instant guarantees. So, now you've got a slim to none chance of taking out two ancient Gold Dragons, you've cast a 6th 9th level spell and I've lost count how many 8th and 7th level spells you've cast.

This is getting too ridiculous for me.

Why's that? Using the spells you have as class features to ensure victory is ridiculous?


Divergent wrote:
Why's that? Using the spells you have as class features to ensure victory is ridiculous?

Yeah, that's why its ridiculous

*shakes head and mutters*

Let's run the math

You said you'd scry the Dragon's lair, teleport in, and cast dominate.

Somebody else can run the odds of you finding his lair and scrying him, but let's just look at what happens when you teleport in. He's got a +24 to his will save. You've got a 9th level Dominate Monster spell (your 7th 9th level spell - not bad for someone who can only cast 4 9th level spells per day). So, in order for you to have a 50/50 chance of affecting the dragon, you need to have an Int mod of 34 - 19 = 15. That means you need an Int of 40. But the most you can get from magic items is +6. So, you need an 18 +2 (race) + 5 (level) + 6 (magic) = 31. You can force the Dragon to make a save DC of 29. He's got a will save bonus of +24. He only needs to roll a 5 or better to save vs. your spell. He's got a 75% chance of succeeding. If he succeeds, then you die.
Now, you want to do this twice in a row with two different dragons. So, you've got a 75% + .25*75% = 93.75% chance of dieing before you even meet the Barbarian. And that's not even factoring in Dragons' spell resistance. It's also being kind and giving you first attack (as if the Dragon didn't detect your scrying attempt). Realistically, you've got a snowball's chance in hell.


TarkXT wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
Divergent wrote:

Scry + teleport into their layer + dominate monster. Done.

Against two CR20 critters? Just like that?

They'd eat you before you even got to the Barbarian.

Not both at once, obviously.

That would just be silly.

And singlehandedly waltzing into a CR20 Dragon's lair (even with scrying - assuming you can scry into their lair and that they didn't ward it from that kind of stuff) - doing it twice in a row - isn't silly?

And imagine you managed to catch the gold dragon merely sitting on a pile of ancient priceless legal documents being all majestic and awe inspiring he probably already saw your scrying sensor with a +40 perception check assuming you bust his +24 will save and 31SR from the start the dragon merely readies an action to drop an antimagic field on himself and then rends you limb from limb as you try and catch him unaware. Because, unfortunately for you, he's still a freaking dragon.

Yeah, better stick to the Balors.

Okay, whatever, as you say, there are still the Balors. I still don't notice you proposing a solution to a couple Balors piling on your barbarian.


Divergent wrote:

Okay, whatever, as you say, there are still the Balors. I still don't notice you proposing a solution to a couple Balors piling on your barbarian.

Spell sundered. This has already been covered I believe.

The solution to all the barbarian's problems is to smash it. Always. Period. You really should have read the thread.


TarkXT wrote:
Divergent wrote:

Okay, whatever, as you say, there are still the Balors. I still don't notice you proposing a solution to a couple Balors piling on your barbarian.

Spell sundered. This has already been covered I believe.

The solution to all the barbarian's problems is to smash it. Always. Period. You really should have read the thread.

Wait a sec- Spell Sunder works on summoned creatures? Alrighty then, change of tactics: dump delayed blast fireballs around him, then Initiate Invisiblity + as many blasting spells as you can pump out in a round.


I think a rogue has a talent that also lets him act as if he got a 20 on initiative, so some of those nice ambush feats would be great against casters.

In anycase, your wasting a lot of level 9 spells on this. My point is that this is a team base game, and a wizard blowing out several of his 9th level spells isn't good for anyone.

Also, dispel vs caster level. Your assuming automatic success, but again, not the point.

I was saying the 3 wizards could do that on their turn, and let their rogue friend have fun without completely wasting all of their high level spells. Also, any cheese divination could easily be pulled by one of these wizards. "With a case of I know, that you know, that I know, that you know :p ." I'm sure there is some anti-scry spells they could cast, once they find out that they are being scryed.

Also, yeah, are you saying that if you know who you are about to fight, and set an ambush designed to kill them, that you might succeed? What an amazing concept. Again though I don't like this game where I tell you what I'm going to do, and you run down a list a spells to try to stop it, and then I counter with several spells/abilities to counter that. You creating a very specific character for a very specific encounter.

Theory vs Practice...

I'm sure any campaign that have player characters asking the DM whats going to happen in 24 hours is extremely fun.

Moving on, my point wasn't a PvP battle, it was an example, my point was that you could easily use resources on your team mates and thus have more fun toys for when you need it.


Lockgo wrote:

I think a rogue has a talent that also lets him act as if he got a 20 on initiative, so some of those nice ambush feats would be great against casters.

In anycase, your wasting a lot of level 9 spells on this. My point is that this is a team base game, and a wizard blowing out several of his 9th level spells isn't good for anyone.

Also, dispel vs caster level. Your assuming automatic success, but again, not the point.

I was saying the 3 wizards could do that on their turn, and let their rogue friend have fun without completely wasting all of their high level spells. Also, any cheese divination could easily be pulled by one of these wizards. "With a case of I know, that you know, that I know, that you know :p ." I'm sure there is some anti-scry spells they could cast, once they find out that they are being scryed.

Also, yeah, are you saying that if you know who you are about to fight, and set an ambush designed to kill them, that you might succeed? What an amazing concept. Again though I don't like this game where I tell you what I'm going to do, and you run down a list a spells to try to stop it, and then I counter with several spells/abilities to counter that. You creating a very specific character for a very specific encounter.

Theory vs Practice...

I'm sure any campaign that have player characters asking the DM whats going to happen in 24 hours is extremely fun.

Moving on, my point wasn't a PvP battle, it was an example, my point was that you could easily use resources on your team mates and thus have more fun toys for when you need it.

What I'm saying is that the Rogue is entirely incidental to the success of your plan. It's the Wizards that are actually doing the work, for all that the Rogue is the one that carries out their plans. A summoned monster would do just as well, if not better, and would only cost a spell slot. That's what Martial characters are worth- a spell slot.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Hey EL, your thread has acheived its purpose finally! :D


Divergent wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Divergent wrote:

Okay, whatever, as you say, there are still the Balors. I still don't notice you proposing a solution to a couple Balors piling on your barbarian.

Spell sundered. This has already been covered I believe.

The solution to all the barbarian's problems is to smash it. Always. Period. You really should have read the thread.

Wait a sec- Spell Sunder works on summoned creatures? Alrighty then, change of tactics: dump delayed blast fireballs around him, then Initiate Invisiblity + as many blasting spells as you can pump out in a round.

A solid plan. Unfortunately last I checked he had energy resistances and still had ridiculously high saves. Plus, being a barbarian has really high hitpoints. So, while invisible and screaming at the high perception barbarian who can turn you into pink mist with one charge how long do you think you can last? Better keep that teleport handy.

Honestly? If I were the wizard? I'd cast Wish and give the barbarian a long and happy existence far away from me with all the barefoot women making him sandwhiches that he wanted. One 9th level spell. I win by making him concede fight in favor of lunch and wenching.

This is how I wizard. By making it so I never have to roll initiative.

Liberty's Edge

Lockgo, this thread isn't about how to have the most fun. Or about how working together is beneficial. It is about addressing the disparity in power between casters and martial characters. No one is trying to force the martial characters out of their role, it is just to test and acknowledge rather or not there is a power difference between the types of classes.

All the arguing and side tracking away from that point isn't helping the thread.


" Rogue is the one that carries out their plans." DING DING DING

Also, just the inherit weakness of summon monsters in general. Skill checks as appose to wasting nice spells. Most player characters are generally a hell of a lot stronger then any summon monster. "Of there level obviously" So I doubt it would be truly better. Any called monster cost you money. Ect...

ShadowcatX wrote:

Lockgo, this thread isn't about how to have the most fun. Or about how working together is beneficial. It is about addressing the disparity in power between casters and martial characters. No one is trying to force the martial characters out of their role, it is just to test and acknowledge rather or not there is a power difference between the types of classes.

All the arguing and side tracking away from that point isn't helping the thread.

Oh, well yeah, by all means, casters are completely dominate. I think that was the first thing I said, or at least, looking back, implied.

This is probably why the game is more fun in early-mid to mid levels. Where casters have really useful spells, but nothing that gives them up to five turns in a turn base game.

Again, this game wasn't meant for PvP.

and with that I go back on my original statement. How often does your caster know what is going to happen, even with those spells, which yes, are way to powerful, you still shouldn't be able to handle every situation that comes after you. Sometimes your spells aren't going to work. Sometimes you run out of your high level spells.

and that is the major draw back, your spells ether work or they don't.

Any high level encounter, you will probably be slinging those things at the big bad, and a lot of them aren't going to work the way you want it, and having more casters on your team isn't going to help things. There are plenty of monsters out there that could decimate some of the best casters. To quote some one else, Casters start off spiky, but eventually lose their spells per day. So it better to use a few low level spells on making sure the fighter stays alive, and does a good job, then to start slinging higher level spells all over the place.

A balanced team is far more effective then a team of casters, usually.

Then again, this game get ridiculous in high levels with any class.

I think I'll go now, Divergent was getting pretty snippy towards me, and pretty unprovoked.


It seems to go something like this:

Div: "Well, my oracle20/wiz20/whatever20 would just have cast that spell!"
The rest: "Sorry, that wouldn't have helped you due to this and this and you forgot that."
Div: "Then I just would've cast this spell instead!"
The rest: "Sorry, that wouldn't have helped you due to this and this and you forgot that."
Div: "Then I just would've cast this spell instead!"
The rest: "Sorry, that wouldn't have helped you due to this and this and you forgot that."
Div: "Then I just would've cast this spell instead!"
The rest: "Sorry, that wouldn't have helped you due to this and this and you forgot that."
Div: "Then I just would've cast this spell instead!"
and so on.

What is this proof of? Many dead squishy castery guy before some castery guy comes up with some way to kill him off. And that includes accidently stepping upon the lairs of two CR 20 gold dragons and successfully enslaving them.

And no, you can't just scry gold dragons because you have to know where there even ARE CR 20 gold dragons. And do you know how easy it is to spot a creature has been Dominated? You'd think the ancient gold dragons entire entourage of followers (or the city it rules) would notice something and get a bit pissed. And no, you can't hand-wave thirty thousand people with pitchforks and torches away.

How many ancient gold dragons even exist in golarion?

While the barbarian, instead of all those convoluted "solutions", just comes to the simplest conclusion with the least number of assumptions: Occam's Razor is _really frakkin sharp and it cuts weak robe-guys to pieces_.


TarkXT wrote:
Divergent wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Divergent wrote:

Okay, whatever, as you say, there are still the Balors. I still don't notice you proposing a solution to a couple Balors piling on your barbarian.

Spell sundered. This has already been covered I believe.

The solution to all the barbarian's problems is to smash it. Always. Period. You really should have read the thread.

Wait a sec- Spell Sunder works on summoned creatures? Alrighty then, change of tactics: dump delayed blast fireballs around him, then Initiate Invisiblity + as many blasting spells as you can pump out in a round.

A solid plan. Unfortunately last I checked he had energy resistances and still had ridiculously high saves. Plus, being a barbarian has really high hitpoints. So, while invisible and screaming at the high perception barbarian who can turn you into pink mist with one charge how long do you think you can last? Better keep that teleport handy.

Honestly? If I were the wizard? I'd cast Wish and give the barbarian a long and happy existence far away from me with all the barefoot women making him sandwhiches that he wanted. One 9th level spell. I win by making him concede fight in favor of lunch and wenching.

This is how I wizard. By making it so I never have to roll initiative.

I think someone said before best bet for barbarians is heavy fortification on armor,so no resistance.

One of few ways that would go for wizards.Time stop+4 empowered delayed blast fireballs.If he survives.On next round use it again and thats it.

But still thats just theory,as i dont see why would wizard use all spell slots for emp.dely.blast fireball.

Though i am still on barbarians,monks side vs wizard.Paladins and rangers would have some chance maybe.While fighter would most probably die.Though fighter would most probably kill those classes i mentioned.Balance.I agree with Lockgo completely on this point.


On fighter, I think it completely depends on who wins initiative. Have you SEEN the damage for an archer fighter?


ShadowcatX wrote:
First, let the AM side pick 1 person who will enter this contest against me. I'll deal with that person's comments and only that person's comments from here on. We'll start this with actual set distances, and maneuverability rules, and at least a list of buffs.

This isn't a contest per say, it's mostly been a thought process.

ShadowcatX wrote:
Secondly, the cohort / planar ally was an example of the problems that arise from just saying "You're being attacked, how do you respond." I don't plan to actually use a planar ally or a cohort in this match.

Martials don't have a problem with "you're being attacked, how do you respond", casters do.

ShadowcatX wrote:
Third, gate has a note for negotiating if you require a long term service. I'm simply summoning a pair of angels and asking them to do the good and noble thing, which is to prevent a murder in cold blood. That said I don't have to note that talking is a free action. Of course, I could just offer them half of said barbarian's 800,000+ gp in equipment, he won't be needing it shortly.

So your plan is to have two uncontrolled angels to spring into action to save you?

ShadowcatX wrote:
Fourth, retrieving a spell component is part of the action of casting a spell. There's no "you can't get that before the barbarian's on you." Play by the rules of the game.

Nope, 10k in incense and offerings is in every way, shape and form elaborate. Only simple things count as a free action to pull from a pouch.

ShadowcatX wrote:
Gate is a standard action spell. Monsters that arrive based off of a standard action spell get to have their actions in a round. That is one of the many reasons it is so nice to have summon monster as a standard action rather than a full round action.

Summon monster says they act instantly. Gate does not.

ShadowcatX wrote:
I'll grant that the barbarian can negate the disintegrate. I have no problem with that, though it is not certain, since dexterity's more important on the caster than on the barbarian and a +15 BAB (had anyone even noticed that planar ally is a cleric/oracle spell?) is not automatic loss distance from the +23 ride score the barbarian likely has, especially with moment of prescience as a possible buff.

I swear in your original post it said planar binding. It doesn't now though. Sorry for the mixup. You have a 15 bab, which you add dex to (tradionally a low priotity stat for divine casters), that barbarian has 23 ranks in handle animal+dex(which is huge now with CAGM). He will generally beat you. And you should have said you were using moment of prescience before you were told you were gonna miss.

ShadowcatX wrote:

Whose to say that my character would ever willingly slay a good aligned opponent? We'll go with base cost on spells, as AM already pointed out, anyone can win a combat if they just randomly make stuff up.

The 9HD mount (which is less than most lv 20 mounted characters have) is provided by no class feature of the Barbarian. I could argue that if you want a mount, play a cavalier, but honestly, keep the mount, it makes it more interesting.

Well that's nice of you, seeing as your example is using uncontrolled angels to do you bidding, but seeing as you're a cleric of a NG good god I guess that's a plausable as the Barbarian taming a dire bat.

ShadowcatX wrote:
And to think, I thought the only thing that I'd be adding to this thread would be to state that both Planetars are holding their actions for the waves of exhaustion.

So in a few sentences you explain to them that they need to help you, and that they need to ready an action? Why aren't they taking there first action to make sure you aren't lying?

ShadowcatX wrote:
Edit: The actual caster I will be using is an Oracle of Time. Dual cursed (haunted - primary, deaf secondary). Its a character I'm currently tossing around in my head. I'm glad that someone noticed I mentioned divine magic.

Really? Really? So you're deaf (no talking to planetars), all the deities you venerate are neutral(planar allies gonna be iffy), you dont get access to moment of prescience (thought maybe you were gonna say you got it from a domain) and you editied your original post several time(stop complaining about planar binding/ally).

ShadowcatX wrote:
I briefly considered using an oracle of battle and beating said barbarian at his own game, but I thought that would be cheating.

The barbarian is a better beat-stick then the oracle, and is set up to murder someone on a charge, so at best you could surprising charge away from him a few times before he hit you.


Ok.. Wait Wait Wait. A lot happened while I was sleeping.

First - thing I saw as wrong - Planetar using a readied action to step into the charge line can not be done. Readied actions go BEFORE the action that trigered them. There for the planetar must take his movement BEFORE the barbarian begins his charge. There for the Barbarian can change the path if he so chooses but must still charge.

Secondly - Ignore the BAT please. The Disintegrate hits but does nothing. We hashed out earlier (way earlier) that the bat has a ring of spell turning. Otherwise it would have fallen from the sky pages ago.

Thirdly - Wave of Exhaustion would only prevent rage cycling. You are right. Still sucks to be exhausted but not life threatening.

Fourthly - We have debunked the Time stop / gate combo. Yes you can cast gate while in time stop. No it does not bring you your Balors on that turn. This is because time stop prevents you from effecting ANY creatures. Gate specifically says it goes out and rips another creature from its home plain and brings him to you. Also, since the creature calling is an instantaneous spell and contains no wording on concentration, gate spells fissle as they attempt to bring the creature in and fail. The end. GATE + TIME STOP is a rule breaking combination and is the prime example of the misconceptions we are talking about.

Fifthly - Delayed blast fireball + time stop is great but unless you are going to use the fireballs on top of your self its a no go. This is because you must delay the fireball explosions until the turn after your time stop. If you do not, they do not work because time stop prevents creatures being effected. Now, before your next turn, the barbarian go's and is now basically on top of you and killing you. Your next turn...if you live, the fireballs go off, either on top of you or way behind the barbarian (depending on where you put the beads).


Divergent wrote:


First off, if I were actually battling the barbarian, I wouldn't even really be there- as I said, astral projection and all that. Second, I use Time Stop. Then, with my 3 standard actions and a swift action, I pull up a prismatic sphere, walls of force, whatever else I feel like to contain you, and then summon my pair of Ancient Golden Dragons in there with you. Assuming you survive that (which you won't) I teleport away and wait for another day. I do some scrying, find out what magic items, allies, etc, you have, and then when you're relaxing in your lair somewhere I teleport in and slap a dozen spells with will save (no) and SR (no) on you at once.

As I said earlier, the real strength of the wizard is his ability to completely change his style of battle whenever he feels like it.

Ok. There is so much wrong with this. So I pulled it out of my normal rant. It is a great example of breaking all the spell rules to make the wizard powerful. That's ok. Spells are confusing and have a multitude of fine print.

So you Time Stop and then do a bunch of stuff.
One - You do not prismatic sphere the barbarian. Range = 10ft / centered ON YOU. Fail

Two - You summon (apparently telepathically call your dominated dragons to you). That fails too. Because the dragons won't here you until the time stop stops.

Three - NO SPELL can cross the prismatic sphere. There will be no teleporting/summoning/calling monsters into the sphere. The Indigo layer stops all spells. Fail

Here is what you do have. You in a prismatic sphere that you must walk out of before teleporting and a barbarian just outside it.


It's like the circle of life ;)


As a side note: Threads like these are great for reasons other than whether melee or casters are better.

We have consistently proven that at high levels spells are tricky and have fine print. Threads like this allow you to practice using those high level spells in combinations. You get feed back on whether the combination is legal and on how effective it could be.

Of all the casters, Shadowcat had the least rules problems. Most were minor and explainable. From it he had a decent strategy and would probably have survive to the second round (depends on how well the planetar blocked available charge lains). I loved the exhaustion strategy as it took out rage cycling, which is the biggest thing a high lvl barbarian has. Good job.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
It's like the circle of life ;)

Yes it is. I was totally misunderstanding this spell combo on the first few pages. I have seen the light!

A lot of these wizard combos have just floated around the forums (here and on the old 3.5 WotC) and get repeated as the be all ender of combat (Oh how I miss my forcecage / cloudkill). Not many people play a lvl 20 campaign and actually get to use them at a table.

Edit: Only 101 posts to go!


Lab_Rat wrote:

As a side note: Threads like these are great for reasons other than whether melee or casters are better.

We have consistently proven that at high levels spells are tricky and have fine print. Threads like this allow you to practice using those high level spells in combinations. You get feed back on whether the combination is legal and on how effective it could be.

Of all the casters, Shadowcat had the least rules problems. Most were minor and explainable. From it he had a decent strategy and would probably have survive to the second round (depends on how well the planetar blocked available charge lains). I loved the exhaustion strategy as it took out rage cycling, which is the biggest thing a high lvl barbarian has. Good job.

I still don't think you can use Gate like Shadowcat is using it.

"pg 184 of CRB wrote:

To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus(DF) component, you have to have the proper materials,

as described by the spell. Unless these components are
elaborate, preparing them is a free action.
For material
components and focuses whose costs are not listed in the
spell description, you can assume that you have them if
you have your spell component pouch.

If the bolded phrase doesn't apply to 10k in rare incense and offerings I don't know what it would apply to.

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