In the seven or so years that I've played D&D, I've yet to see anyone effectively utilize thrown weapons more than once.
Has anyone ever figured out a good reason why Returning weapons *shouldn't* just return instantly to your hand and allow a full attack? Or, if you insist on making throwing weapons require some investment to bring them up to par with conventional ranged weapons, work like the Blinkback Belt? I mean, that still leaves a gap in effectiveness between when the rest of the party starts getting magical weapons, and when you can afford to get a knife enchanted to +1 Returning, but that would make Throwing Weapons viable without taking up your precious belt slot.
I haven't done the work, but the idea of a warpriest with quickdraw + dagger of doubling +thrown weapon and twf feats seems really good actually.
Aura faint conjuration; CL 5th; Weight 1 lb.; Price 10,302 gp
DESCRIPTION
A wielder with a free hand can split this +1 dagger into two identical +1 daggers as a swift action, or a free action if she has the Quick Draw feat. The doubled daggers can't be split again. If either dagger is thrown while doubled, the hurled dagger vanishes after resolving the attack and the remaining dagger can be split again. If the wielder drops a doubled dagger or it otherwise leaves her person, it vanishes. If both daggers leave the wielder's hands at the same time, determine randomly which dagger vanishes.
Spells or effects placed on a dagger of doubling don't duplicate when the dagger is split. Any active effects on a dagger end when it vanishes. Destroying one of the doubled daggers just causes the duplicate to disappear, but any damage to a single dagger of doubling remains on both daggers when it doubles.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shadow weapon; Cost 5,302 gp
With a decent build, the Flying Blade Swashbuckler can be pretty good, actually.
Any two handed build that adds QuickDraw to it would benefit from thrown weapons. Probably works best with a line of reach weapon users -- roman phalanx of pilum or javelin and long spear. You could of course update it with halberd or glaive.
Throw the weapons when they refuse to come within your melee threatened range. Since it is a line, you don't have the problems with gaps in threatened areas. Unlikely that they would have cover, so you wouldn't have to deal with the penalties that archers always complain about.
Add an efficient quiver so you can carry enough thrown weapons to do any good.
The main problem then becomes DR. Is there a way to get something similar to the Arcane Archers ability to cause all arrows to be enchanted, only for thrown weapons.
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My brawler fighter carries around a couple bandoliers of stakes to chuck at people. Beyond low levels, it's always a bad idea to initiate melee with an enemy melee combatant. You get one attack, they get a full attack. So having thrown weapons is often a good backup. There is the card caster magus archetype that is a thrown weapon magus (from the harrower's handbook), which looks interesting but I have yet to actually try it out.
Spell storing doesn't work on a thrown weapon because of the line "if the wielder desires". Since you're no longer wielding it when it strikes your enemy, you can't activate the power.
An interesting semantic point, though the definition of 'wielding' is already badly undefined without getting into the definition of 'wielder' - and whether it applies at least until your attack is resolved. There's also the question of whether you can 'desire' that the weapon activates when it hits it's target while you are most certainly still 'wielding' it.
I can see the argument, but it seems a stretch to me to say that you're no longer the 'wielder' of a thrown weapon even as it hits the target you just threw it at.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't get bent out of shape if someone ruled against for whatever reason. I just don't really see any general cause to try to limit an interesting specialized option like that if you have to take a rather awkward semantic stand on a poorly defined term to do it.
While both the dagger of doubling and the blinkback belt are good solutions, they aren't perfect. The dagger is a specific magic weapon so you can't enhance it further and the belt eats up your belt slot, which is your stat boosting slot.
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The UE's blinkback belt makes throwing builds viable, though in PFS losing the belt slot for the blinkbelt hurts a bit (in homebrew nearly any GM will let you get the old gloves of dex). However, it doesn't really take the place of a full fledged archer. If nothing else, it doesn't have the range.
Instead - a thrower build is comes into its own as a rogue (or ninja) who splits the difference between a melee & ranged build.
Unlike an archer, a thrower build gives up very little melee proficiency for his build. An archer may take weapon finesse, but generally has crappy melee weapons.
In addition, assuming you start a fight within 35ft of you opponents (common) throwing builds let you throw out more attacks than any other to take advantage of them being flat-footed to max out potential sneak attack between TWF & rapidshot combined. (or any other chance for them to be flat-footed for that matter)
And if someone closes on you - all you give up is rapidshot and that extra +1 from point-blank.
A thrower can't do an archer's job as well as they can, but they can do so without the disadvantages inherent to an archer. They're not quite as good at melee as a dedicated TWF rogue/ninja, having given up three non-melee feats to make the build work(point blank/precise shot/rapid shot), a belt slot, and they use smaller weapons, but they add quite a few options.
In the end - throwing builds can be pretty solid, if rather feat intensive. It takes a full five feats to come into its own. (point blank/precise shot/rapid shot/TWF/weapon finesse) And yes - the weapon finesse is basically needed as the melee are what make the build work.
@Charon's Little Helper
Or at least you allow you to double enhance your belt with the 50% markup.
To be fair full bab dedicated archers (especially ZAMs and archery style rangers) are kinda overkill when pitted against APs and modules.
Hm... I wonder how the Dagger of Doubling and Blinkback belt interact TOGETHER...
A wielder with a free hand can split this +1 dagger into two identical +1 daggers as a swift action, or a free action if she has the Quick Draw feat. The doubled daggers can't be split again. If either dagger is thrown while doubled, the hurled dagger vanishes after resolving the attack and the remaining dagger can be split again. If the wielder drops a doubled dagger or it otherwise leaves her person, it vanishes. If both daggers leave the wielder's hands at the same time, determine randomly which dagger vanishes.
Spells or effects placed on a dagger of doubling don't duplicate when the dagger is split. Any active effects on a dagger end when it vanishes. Destroying one of the doubled daggers just causes the duplicate to disappear, but any damage to a single dagger of doubling remains on both daggers when it doubles.
A set of clips is attached to this segmented belt constructed of metallic links.
Up to two one-handed melee weapons or up to four light melee weapons can be hung from the belt in straps or sheaths. When the wearer draws a weapon attached to this belt and throws it before the end of her next turn, the weapon teleports back to its strap or sheath immediately after the attack is resolved.
So... technically be both trigger when the attack is resolved... So whihc would trigger first? Because that could get rather hilarious if after the split dagger is thrown it teleports back to you xD...
The dagger [of doubling] is a specific magic weapon so you can't enhance it further...
This is untrue. Ultimate Equipment and Ultimate Campaign both clearly state that you can modify specific magical arms and armor. The latter book even gives some advice and examples on how to manage it.
You could have "a javelin of doubling" just as easily as you could have "+5 adamantine humanbane dagger of doubling."
Distance Thrower and Far Shot let you throw out to your max range with only a -3 penalty. Belt of Mighty Hurling adds 10ft to your weapons and lets you use Str to throw.
My comment was mostly going for the PFS crowd Ravingdork.
Just pointing out that since all the language assumes you're holding it while you hitting someone the language breaks down on ranged stuff. Same for things like the arrows (usable as improvised melee weapons, does the power also work when you shoot it?).
Just for the sake of friendly argument... I don't think the language breaks down or assumes holding, because of the way "(verb)-er" works in English; you don't stop being 'the murderer' in the homicide case the moment you're no longer murdering the guy, or 'the winner' of the race the moment you're done winning the race. Say one day a Paladin, out of sheer lawful good boredom, up and hurls his spear through the King's heart when nobody is looking at them. When the Head of the Guard rushes up and demands "Who is the wielder of this spear!?" the Paladin shrugs and says "I'm not 'wielding it'. And I wasn't 'wielding it' when it killed the king."
I'd like to believe that the design team deliberately wrote the rules to restrict ranged spell-storing attacks to throwable weapons that appear under the 'melee' category, since it seems like a simple, elegant way to allow about the 'right' amount of ranged spell-storing hijinks; re: the original topic, it actually gives some people a cool reason to throw spears or whatever. But it's probably just the unintended way the 'corner case' played out - or at least how I read it playing out.
Huh.. Does lead blade or gravity bow affect thrown items?
Interestingly... yes, lead blades works as long as they are also melee weapons (so not Darts or Shuriken). It affects all melee weapons on you when the spell is cast, and works for any attack that you make, and no clause regarding items no longer in your possession.
Impact Critical Shot is another fun feat for a throwing build.
Dagger of doubling + lesser belt of mighty hurling*. The greater belt of mighty hurling may not be worth it if you are focused on throwing as your main attack, but could be useful for those Str-based characters who fight primarily with a two-handed weapon (or a double weapon; or a weapon and light shield/buckler) and want the capability to make ranged attacks occasionally without needing to drop their primary weapon or needing to invest much in Dex.
Too bad the dagger of doubling explicitly disallows "spells or effects" (such as greater magic weapon) from duplicating when the dagger is split, though.
* -
Price 14,000 gp; Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Weight 1 lb.
This thick leather belt is buckled with a bright bronze clasp in the shape of a fist. When worn, it grants its wearer a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and allows him to apply his Strength modifier as a bonus on attack rolls instead of his Dexterity modifier when making ranged attacks with thrown weapons. Also, the range increment of any weapon thrown by the wearer gains a +10-foot bonus. Treat this Strength bonus as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
Construction Requirements
Cost 7,000 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, bull's strength, longshot
MoMS two levels can get you Perfect Style + Unfolding Wind Strike for "Double the range increment of thrown weapons".
I had a half-orc ranger/barbarian with Two-handed Thrower, Improved Charging Hurler, and Hurling Charge (rage power). With a Called Orc double-axe, he would charge, throw his double-axe (with +2 attk/dmg, 1.5x Str dmg), call his weapon back, and take his attack at the end of his charge.
He had a belt of mighty hurling and the ranger dip for two-weapon fighting (in case anybody survived the charge).
Who needs Dex?
As to where it's from, it's the inner sea combat book. And the others got it right. Unfolding wind strike is in the style line that starts with perfect style. perfect style also grants electricity resistance 5.
As far as double the range increment from both, I don't know of a reason they wouldn't both work. Neither mentions not working with similar effects.
I've put together a few throwing builds that are pretty good.
They all suffered from the problem they didn't really start to shine until you get the lesser belt of mighty hurling, which is like a level 7 item. Also, DR was always an issue pre-clustered shots, because unlike a bow its impractical to enchant them. Throwing also has a feat tax built in and is still beat by archery.
I can make a few that are DECENT pre-level 7, but I don't like the 6 level valley of suck.
That said pretty sure bows > throwing every time. Doesn't mean you can't make a competent one, just that there's a lot of incentive to not try.
S. 16 (18)
D. 14
C. 14
I. 12
W. 12
C. 7
Trait: SLA granting one
1) quickdraw
1) point blank shot
3) precise shot
4) rapid shot
5) arcane strike
5) Improved Critical(free)
7) clustered shots
8) deadly aim
9)
11) improved precise shot
Level 1
Melee: +5 1d6+4
Ranged: +3 1d4+4
Level 5
Melee: + 10 1d6+12
Ranged: +9 or +7/+7. 1d4+12
Level 8
Melee: +14 1d6+16
Ranged: +14 or +12/+12/+7 1d4+16
Or +9/+9/+4 1d4+22
My monk throws everything he carries and then runs up to engage in melee. After everything is dead, he picks his weapons back up.
have you considered grafting 2 levels of spherewalker onto that?
I had not, may be an interesting choice. I'll have to look into that if I ever actually decide to pursue a throwing build.
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In Treantmonk's lab there is a monk build he has that throws shuriken using the flury of blows, lotsa thrown weapons in a round. Just a thought.Yeah, if you can get away with throwing "ammunition"-type stuff (like a monk throwing shuriken or a Stone oracle throwing rocks or someone using a sling glove from the Legacy of Fire Player's Guide), it might work. Probably more trouble than it's worth, though.
Yup, my monk/paladin doesn't mind delivering her smite with a flurry of shurikens. :)
Unfolding wind rush just seems amazing for mobility and damage.
since you get to full attack as part of a move, you get great mobility as well as getting off your (full attack-1)x2,in attacks per round. That is if you substitute your standard for an extra move. Why wouldn't you if you have this feat?
Any way to sneak in a few extra move actions in a round that anyone knows of?
I think the basic problem with this thread is that the OPs premise doesn't hold. Even if there isn't good build using throwing weapons as primary damage dealing technique, that doesn't make them useless. They're nice backups for many.
I think it boils down to a question of what someone means by "useless." Obviously they're not completely useless, since thrown weapons are still capable of inflicting some damage. However, like almost every other ranged weapon in the game they suffer from being significantly outperformed by the composite longbow. It would be like if the katana was a 2d10 17-20 x4 weapon. Sure, everything else wouldn't be [u]useless[/u], but other than flavor there wouldn't be much reason to take any other weapon.
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Are there any decent builds that can utilize thrown weapons and still be able to hold up next to other more traditional combat-focused characters at higher levels? At lower levels thrown weapons are a blast, but later when you have to start overcoming DR and getting your weapons enchanted, it is much more economical to enchant a bow or crossbow than pay for the enchanting of a few daggers (as well as the need to get returning on them all) In the end, if you don't want to find yourself being useless, you are better off dropping thrown weapons and stick to standard melee and ranged weapons.
Am I wrong?
I think it boils down to a question of what someone means by "useless." Obviously they're not completely useless, since thrown weapons are still capable of inflicting some damage. However, like almost every other ranged weapon in the game they suffer from being significantly outperformed by the composite longbow. It would be like if the katana was a 2d10 17-20 x4 weapon. Sure, everything else wouldn't be [u]useless[/u], but other than flavor there wouldn't be much reason to take any other weapon.
I have strength based characters that start with chakram. Not only are they cheaper than bows, I don't have to pay extra to add strength to damage. Perfect for levels 1-5.
Well... technically not a thrown weapon per say, the Rope dart is fairly nifty. It only does 1d4 damage but it has a 20 ft reach and is a monk weapon so you can flurry with it. Additionally it has distracting and blocking so it gives you a (albiet small) bumb in AC and allows you to do some fun stuff with Feint... Additionally, unlike most ranged weapons, it is still "attatched" to you so you don't have to worry about ammo costs and such... you just enchant the dart. The weird thing comes with the fact that it is technically a ranged weapon but it technically has a finite chain... so how you technically deal with things like the Distance enchantment and "farther than 1 range increment" seems a little odd...
It's unfortunate since throwing knives are so deadly in the movies.
Had to fix this. Carry on.
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I have strength based characters that start with chakram. Not only are they cheaper than bows, I don't have to pay extra to add strength to damage. Perfect for levels 1-5.
The problem is, your premise starts with "Because I can't use a longbow..." It's not so much disputing that longbow is mechanically superior in every way as it is pointing out that there are other options that are cheaper, but still inferior. You're not picking up some chakram because they're better in any way, it's just because you can't afford a longbow yet.
That said, throwing weapons aren't so bad at low levels, They don't really start running into problems until level 6 or so, when magic weapons become a requirement for combat classes, your number of attacks goes up, and the price tag on a composite longbow is utterly trivial.
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Quite a few builds that let thrown weapons shine, even at really high levels.
Raving dork ( I think) made a rock thrower that is slightly different and better then the above posted rock thrower.
I built a ninja waves oracle that tosses 8 shuriken at level 7 from obscuring mist scoring SA for every landed shuriken. Then clustered shots allow you to ignore the need for dr bypassing materials or enchants. One issue is getting your to hit high enough past level 10, but you make up for it by volume of attacks.
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I have strength based characters that start with chakram. Not only are they cheaper than bows, I don't have to pay extra to add strength to damage. Perfect for levels 1-5.The problem is, your premise starts with "Because I can't use a longbow..." It's not so much disputing that longbow is mechanically superior in every way as it is pointing out that there are other options that are cheaper, but still inferior. You're not picking up some chakram because they're better in any way, it's just because you can't afford a longbow yet.
That said, throwing weapons aren't so bad at low levels, They don't really start running into problems until level 6 or so, when magic weapons become a requirement for combat classes, your number of attacks goes up, and the price tag on a composite longbow is utterly trivial.
The longbow is mechanically superior .... but my chakram are not useless, which was the OP's question. Thrown weapons allow me to take advantage of strength bonuses at a time in my characters life when strength bows are not an option.