With respect to Treantmonk's gift for unvarnished analysis...
Planar binding is definitely one of those spells that is balanced by GM arbitration. I know, I know, a rule that relies on GM arbitration is usually a cop-out. But still, this is a deal-with-the-devil arrangement, quite literally. The summoned creature is an NPC, and a GM who is even conscious when this spell is cast should see opportunities for game balance everywhere.
Yes, taken in a vacuum, the spell could be considered broken. Yes there are many places where the presence of a GM is not enough to say that it's not a rules design problem. I really think Planar binding is the exception to that principle.
The fact that 'monk had that bone devil acting as a slave at length (and learning all his weaknesses to report to the real boss about a very powerful mortal) and there was no greater consequence just tells me he was very lucky to have the GM he did. The situation invites consequence.
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Something I've been trying to get across in my posts since the entire Beta game development so many years ago is that wht others think of as broken I merely think of as roleplay and world development potential.
If you try to close ALL the possible big spells off, then you actually close off large amounts of potential for game and world development.
Rules as RAW are great for tournament play or one offs with folks you've never met before. It gives a base line, but then I wouldn't try those types of games with higher level play as the complexities of play at that level make that type of game difficult.
When you play a campaign, then you're existing in a dynamic world where both the players and the other protagonists are going to respond to what's going on. People keep calling DM roleplaying balance into situations as cheesy. I call it world development and realisitic response to a dynamic that has most likely been around far longer than the characters in your game world.
Time Stop - let em use it, the more they do the more they mess with the flow of time in their world. There are ...things... that notice that type of event. They start waiting for the next one then track whose upsetting their world.
Binding - Let em I say, just have others come along and target them. Better yet, have an extra planar creature hear about the big heros on the material plane and bond them in the same way on their home plane to fight the marauding horde of demons ("But you fight demons on your world all the time, why won't you help me beat the Pit Fiend tearing mny city apart as we speak?"
Don't look at these as overpowered or broken, think of ways to make your players think of the most powerful spells as risky. This doesn't stope them using them, which is a good thing. However it sure makes them think twice about over abusing it.
It's kinda funny reading this list. I'm currently playing in a campaign with a 5th level sorcerer and I'm looking through this list thinking - yeah, I have that one, or - yeah, that's on my list. As an infernal sorcerer (primarily for the diplomacy) I have:
1 - silent image, color spray, charm person, protection from good, grease
2 - glitterdust, web, scorching ray
Even though we're regularly fighting enemies who are blind, stunned, or have just slipped to the floor the vast majority of the party is regularly grumbling about my lack of blast spells, and look at me like I'm nuts when I say I'm not taking fireball first when I hit 6th (I think stinking cloud but maybe slow - can't decide).
One of the challenges is that we don't have any great damage dealers in the group, so it still takes them some time to trim down the blind, prone, stunned, or grappled enemies. But heck, direct damage spells will only compound that problem.
Hmmm, maybe I shuld have them read this thread.
The Planar Binding series certainly requires careful handling by the DM. It could probably be the subject of several threads on its own.
Anyhow, I feel like Black Tentacles should offer a Reflex save kind of like Entangle does. I've seen BT be quite disruptive in several 3.5 games, and with PF lowering the size bonuses to grapple you probably can't count on big creatures being able to get out of it. It isn't that there aren't creatures the DM can use against a sorcerer with BT. It is that being forced to use certain types of creatures isn't much fun. Neither is everybody sitting around waiting for BT to very slowly crush the bad guys to death.
I also kind of dislike SoD/SoL spells since they can set the caster up in a race with the HP Damage team to see who can drop the monster first. It seems like working together with buffs, debuffs, and a little direct damage is often more satisfying. That's just a matter of taste though I suppose.
All the Planar Binding spells are seriously broken. The problem (which existed in previous incarnations of the rules, and would have been an easy fix btw) is that there is no minimum offer stipulated.
They do say, however, "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to.". This is IMO a very important sentence in the spell description.
For example, would you go to work for someone for free for a week? No, that's unreasonable. Short term services are more reasonable because you're stuck in the circle for 24 hours regardless. Use a common spell-like ability for the summoner? Fine, get it over with, go home. Carry his luggage for two weeks? Screw it, wait for your 3 chances a day to break free (and wreak terrible, terrible vengeance).
Planar Binding is really only as broken as your GM allows it to be. I mean, when the spell description EXPLICITLY describes it as "a dangerous act", that's a pretty clear indication that a caster should be careful, reasonable and sane in his use of the spell.
If I was going to cast Planar Binding on a creature, I'd try to use Summon Monster to conjure one first and ask if it wouldn't mind being called and negotiated with (getting its name in the process). This basically guarantees a proper setting for negotiation (though with evil outsiders, you still take your chances).
Even though we're regularly fighting enemies who are blind, stunned, or have just slipped to the floor the vast majority of the party is regularly grumbling about my lack of blast spells, and look at me like I'm nuts when I say I'm not taking fireball first when I hit 6th (I think stinking cloud but maybe slow - can't decide).
Slow's a great one, although Haste will have your fellow players seeing the wisdom of your ways.
The other thing with planar binding is that minted coins are basically worthless to devils and celestials. The only thing of value to them are magic items, favors and souls. If you wrote that in the spell description, its (ab)use would shoot WAY down.
Alright, I think we've all beaten the horse to death on this one. Planar Binding is broken, period. Not because of the power level per se, but because it forces the GM to create the cost for the spell. He/she must determine what is fair and balanced for the spell and that is inherantly wrong to do to any GM. I would be very disappointed in any of my players if they sprung this on me out of the blue. As such all we can do is deal with it as is and hope for an errata.
As far as other spells are concerned I'd be interested in seeing what the must haves are for each spell level and why. It's one thing if a spell is simply useful most of the time or if it really outshines all the rest. I had a player shut down half of a derro kidnap squad with a single Greater Command. Talk about frustrating! Sadly there are no hit points for the mind like for the body.
In Magic the gathering there's a term called mising. It's sort of like topdecking where you have the right answer at the right time, but is more similar to the save or suck/die effects where you have a chance of pulling it off and sometimes you just do, mising. SoD means you either rock the house or twiddle your thumbs for a round. This is what I dislike about these spells. They're swingy, and I often wonder if the game better off with them or not. GM's often complain about SoD spells alot (and I would clump color spray in here too) as being too good, but I've had more npc's make their saves than fail them. Maybe people need to put things into perspective.
...Planar Binding is broken, period. Not because of the power level per se, but because it forces the GM to create the cost for the spell. He/she must determine what is fair and balanced for the spell and that is inherantly wrong to do to any GM....
What? If someone isn't comfortable determining what is "fair and balanced" at their own table, then he or she isn't ready to be a DM. And no amount of Paizo errata is going to change that.
As such all we can do is deal with it as is and hope for an errata.
I'm not hoping for any erratum. I don't think the spell is broken. In so many words, I disagree.
"sigh"
The point is that the spell makes demands of the GM. If there was a fighter feat the required GM adjucation everytime it got used would you feel the same way? It's broken if the GM let's it be broken, which inherantly makes the spell broken. Not every GM would, could or should be ready to handle a spell like this. My players wouldn't even cast this spell. They've even admitted to being scared of me, which makes them too cautious sometimes, but it is what it is.
To say the spell isn't broken is to say you agree with its usage as is, which is something I disagree with. This game isn't just played by veterans. Sometimes people need the rules to back them up.
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I'm thinking these threads about the powerful spells are a must read for DMs when designing encounters. Know your players, know their spells and gain an understanding how they might use them.
These spells are only overpowered if the situations allow them to be.
And sometimes it's good to let the players feel powerful. Use them to make your game a richer world. Make them risky in some way, based on your game worlds physics or magic or whatever you can think of.
If you know the players have something like the greater commnad situation above, have more guys in the squad or Have them attack in waves or attack in a far more dispersed fashion. In any one round, make it difficult for that caster to drop too many critters. (No offense to you Hex, just using yours as the closest example to this post - I have no idea of the setup for that scenario so this is in no means an attack on you)
And for the love of all that's holy, at high levels people need to understand that one badguy is just a one round combat ending in the making. Multiple opponents from multiple fronts, and don't always make it obvious who the BBEG is.
Also, remember that there are rules built into the game that allow you and the players to design their own magic items at appropriate costs. Many of these spells could become available to non casters through wondrous type items they design themselves, assuming they're able to pay the cost. Some of them not so much, but others sure. (eg a helm with coulour spray built into it - imagine your parties surprise when the hobgoblin bodyguard they engaged drops that on them instead of the caster at the back: - A crystal shard with a stored black tentacle that any one can throw on the ground to shatter: - an hourglass of time with a one shot time stop spell that the carrier gets to use by inverting, very useful for a fighter to stop everything and get to the BBEG at the back of a horde of minions say)
Many of these don't need fixing, they just need creative ways to make them useful to more people, or far more risky to use than the standard text would let you believe. If we keep trying to "fix" this stuff, I firmly believe its killing off entire avenues of game design and creativity.
Cheers
This is something I try and cover often -- why did you show up when I managed to one hit the boss? Everything else we did on the way in. I couldn't have handled those giants, the three traps, the horde of orcs, the long climb up pass the wyverns on my own and still have been in any shape to take out the boss with that spell -- the team effort to get here allowed me to provide the team with an easy go this one time.
Their contributions is what made the chance of that spell even being cast happen --
I'm sorry, but for players of non-casters, this is like the Academy awards, where the famous person thanks all their mooks and family members for their efforts in making them famous. Indeed, without their contributions, their famousness would never happen.
There's a reason why QBs get their offensive lineman extremely expensive XMas gifts. The wizard that doesn't follow up their use of the most powerful spells in the game with Haste on the Fighter is just asking for a power-hug from the other side's monk.
I'm concerned by allowing shield as a potion.
That's part of the reason they reamed some campaigns at the conventions. You should just say it doesn't stack with an actual shield so fighters don't just take 1 level of Wizard for that spell.
Can you create a buckler that has shield permantly on it? I know my goblin chieftans will own one if possible. Not pack leaders, because that would be Montee Haul.
BTW, I had a gnome sorcerer who carried a licorice root and a dagger and would cast haste as soon as he entered a room with anything threatening in it. Yes, he cast invisability before he entered.
I'm concerned by allowing shield as a potion.
That's part of the reason they reamed some campaigns at the conventions. You should just say it doesn't stack with an actual shield so fighters don't just take 1 level of Wizard for that spell.
Can you create a buckler that has shield permantly on it? I know my goblin chieftans will own one if possible. Not pack leaders, because that would be Montee Haul.
BTW, I had a gnome sorcerer who carried a licorice root and a dagger and would cast haste as soon as he entered a room with anything threatening in it. Yes, he cast invisability before he entered.
It doesn't stack with an actual shield. They are both shield bonuses.
This is something I try and cover often -- why did you show up when I managed to one hit the boss? Everything else we did on the way in. I couldn't have handled those giants, the three traps, the horde of orcs, the long climb up pass the wyverns on my own and still have been in any shape to take out the boss with that spell -- the team effort to get here allowed me to provide the team with an easy go this one time.
Their contributions is what made the chance of that spell even being cast happen --
I'm sorry, but for players of non-casters, this is like the Academy awards, where the famous person thanks all their mooks and family members for their efforts in making them famous. Indeed, without their contributions, their famousness would never happen.
There's a reason why QBs get their offensive lineman extremely expensive XMas gifts. The wizard that doesn't follow up their use of the most powerful spells in the game with Haste on the Fighter is just asking for a power-hug from the other side's monk.
Complete agreement -- in those earlier fights the wizard had better be using other (lower level probably) spells to make the others shine too.
Haste, some rays of exhaustion or rays of enfeeblement stuff that makes things easier/better for the rest of the party -- they get to shine then. When he opens up and shoots out a death spell that's the wizards time -- but the rest of the time he needs to be working with the party -- it saves his big spells in the long run (so he can shine) and lets the party know he knows why he is where is is and he appreciates what they do.
Team action really -- but like any team action you want the team to know you are there for them and visa versa.
And the whole Planar Binding thing? If I were playing a good aligned Wizard, summoning a Celestial here is what I would do.
Cast Planar Binding, summon creature.
Immediately break the containment circle once it's there. Yes, you heard me right. Break the circle.
Apologize to the celestial for the inconvenience, but as Wizards do not learn Planar Ally it was the only way he could summon help from on high.
Explain the situation, being sure to emphasize the vileness of the foes, and the justness of the cause. If it is unwilling to help, bid them a good day and make no attempt to stop them from leaving. Chances are it would be happy to fight evil, since it would do so willingly anyways.Worst case scenario you waste the spell. But the celestial should not be angry for you about this as you made no attempt to coerce or force it to serve you.
Nice! Actually, scratch that. Very nice! :-)
Way to resurrect this thread. I R pleased.
After playing with the APG since it came out I must say, the pit spells are the bomb!
They are a must have for casters and makes bullrush amazing! They can used against the party, nor can they be dismissed, but that doesn't really discourage their use.
Any other spells from the APG you think are good?
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Most of the spells on your list are too limited to be really overpowered as in earth shaking! Color Spray may be nice at first level but really doesn't change the gaming environment a lot.
I consider three spells downright overpowered to the point I forbid them:
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Heh. Control Wind got our Druid into tons of trouble when he employed it to nerf some flying sorcerers ambushing us... in the streets of Absalom. Thankfully it was on the border of the Precipice neighborhood so property damage & loss of life was less than it could have been. It was kinda fun seeing their sorcerers flung around, bashed into buildings and generally unable to cast much in response, though.
Surprised to see Blindness/Deafness on the OP's list... at low levels, maybe, but in a campaign where we started at 5th I must've seen the party cleric cast it 20 or 30 times and not once get the target to fail their save. It got to the point where you could sarcastically say 'Oh no, are you gonna strike me blind and/or deaf?' when she was mad at you. :)
*snip*
I've been familiar with planar binding and its kin (lesser and greater) for a long time, on both sides of the screen, and it's a very strong spell. You can determine what sort of outsider you wish to call, and with a properly prepared area you can do so easily (magic circle + dimensional anchor, etc).
Once inside the circle, the charisma check is merely a formality. Why? Because it's amazingly easy to buff yourself and debuff your opponent. Summon a succubus, cast gaes on her, and tell her to retrieve a metal spoon across the room. She can't, so she starts suffering horrible penalties. Come back, curse her (-4 to all checks), curse her again (-6 to charisma), cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself, cause her to become shaken (-2 to all checks), and have your party ready to jump the fiend if you botch your charisma check.
At some point during this, a less than forgiving wizard pretty much has the option to write his or her own check. "Impossible or unreasonable demands" is a weak argument (I say this as a GM) to try and avoid players using it. Impossible or unreasonable would likely be like "destroy the world" or "preform this suicide bombing", but "Serve me unquestioningly for X amount of time" is far from impossible or unreasonable (the wizard could just kill you after all).
That being said, I love planar binding as both a player and a GM. There is a reason spellcasters have a reputation and/or habit of calling outsiders to serve them. It's darn effective, and it's cheap. There are also tricks and methods for keeping them active longer, or pretty much indefinitely. If you're an evil paranoid type, you can kill them prior to the end of their service.
Personally, I tend to be more altruistic when it comes to planar bindings, as I generally prefer not to be cruel and treat my minions with dignity and respect - so much so that in the few games I got to play a summoner in, several of my planar bound minions actually opted to stay in my character's company after their binding expired.
I would add Silence to the original list. It is the ultimate dispel, it has numerous uses for sneaking, and it generally shuts down casters - especially those pesky verbal spells like D-Door, Teleport, and anything language dependent. You are still free to use spell like abilities, which is mostly good for monsters. It may be only a 20' radius, but that is often enough, and since it is only second level, you could just cast it again.
I would also add Glitterdust to the list. Great spell for the same reasons as Blindness, but area, Will instead of Fort, and no SR!
Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill were close, but because they are non-dismissible, they could end up being more trouble then they are worth is some encounters. Great in specific cases though.
For druids, I would also add Spike Growth, Spike Stones, and Wall of Thorns.
Wall of Thorns is one of those spells with everything going for it,- medium range, good area, shapeable, great duration, dismissible, no save, no SR. This can be an encounter winning spell, and you only have to be a 9th level caster. Loading this into a Spellstaff is about the best ability any character can have at the mid-high levels.
Time Stop + Summon Monster __x_ + Dimensional Door out
The moment you DD out of range, all your summoned monsters are going to disappear.
Oh Noes! Not the hold person! Nevermind I could get a bigger effect out of stinking cloud and hit multiple people with it!
If hold person is bad then Ghoul Touch must be worse since it's lower level -- and don't even think about protection from evil on that one!
Dominate person? Yeah anyone with half of an imagination is going to have fun with that one -- after all you *literally* open all commands *literally* -- "Hit that guy" Ok the character pulls back his fist and hits him... for no damage -- didn't tell me to hurt him just to hit him. "Carry this for me" ok but you didn't tell me to move. Not going to sleep until commanded either so you could easily end up with an exhausted creature -- who might not hear you tell him to wake up. Do you even speak its language?
Deafness is a permanent 20% spell failure for a spell caster -- much worse than "I simply can't see you." Blindness a bad spell? Bah go look at pryotechnics same level but can get a hold group instead of just one person.
I don't think "overpowered" means what you think it does -- or at least you are looking in the wrong places for it.
Anti magic field is one of my favorite spells for an eldritch knight.
Doesn't dominate person specifically state that you telepathically control the target, thereby obviating any attempts by the target to be subversive?
Time Stop + Summon Monster __x_ + Dimensional Door outThe moment you DD out of range, all your summoned monsters are going to disappear.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
Time Stop + Summon Monster __x_ + Dimensional Door outThe moment you DD out of range, all your summoned monsters are going to disappear.The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
My mistake.
Also, don't forget this important line: "The creature can escape from the trap by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check." It can do this once per day (in addition to it's own Cha check and dimensional travel, if possible, to escape).
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Planar Bindings are very powerful, if your GM will let them be powerful. Most spells have few GM intervention points, and the Planar Binding spell has many, so if you cast it around an unfamiliar GM you might get some crazy results.
But if you get things aligned juuust right, it can be very powerful. If you've got a pretty good diplomacy check, and your needs align well with the creature's needs, you can get a powerful friend for a few days. If you do make friends with such a creature, you can even call it back the next time you need some backup.
And if you want to just go head-to-head (charisma check-wise) with a creature, then elementals are the way to go. Even the Elder elementals have a charisma bonus of +0. They're not as powerful as angels, demons, and devils, but much more tractable.
Kind of a relief to not see a bunch of APG spells in this thread.
Glad to see it. No power creep.
And, maybe it's simply too early :D
I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but Black Tentacles has always seemed a little too effective to me.
Control Winds: At caster level 15 Level a widened version of this can flatten entire cities or armies. On a large scale this is the deadliest spell in all existance. Power Word: Nuke!
Area of effect: 40 ft./level radius cylinder 40 ft. hig
Even at high caster level, it'd have to be a pretty small city.
It's a powerful spell but not out of league for a 5th level spell. Note that this is one spell in which Fighter types are pretty good at saving against.
Yes, it really is overpowered for a 5th level spell. Go and look up what tornado force winds do. Actually, here, I'll just quote it:
All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (even with siege weapons), as are sound-based Perception checks. Instead of being blown away (see Table: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado. Those who come in contact with the actual funnel cloud are picked up and whirled around for 1d10 rounds, taking 6d6 points of damage per round, before being violently expelled (falling damage might apply).
...
A tornado (175+ mph) destroys all nonfortified buildings and often uproots large trees.
And that's at 40 feet radius (so 80 feet diameter) per caster level, with a single standard action to cast it. The winds do not have a "wind up" time; they instantly go to full force. Control winds is THE single most powerful anti-army spell in the entire game. It's not needed, but adding wall of fire, wall of thorns, or other similar durational area damage effects just makes it even more brutal. And remember, you have to save every round, and unless you're Gargantuan you have to save to be able to move under your own power. If you're Large or smaller, you have to save in order to even stay still.
EDIT: A widened control winds at caster level 15 is a 2,400 foot diameter tornado. Think about that for a second. That's nearly half a mile wide.
You left off the best spell of all.... "Stick pointy end of sword into enemy". I can use it at will, sometimes multiple times on my initiative, and even as an immediate action when people move by me. :)Which feat changes your HP from 'expires in two rounds' to 'infinite'?
Couldn't we all agree to stop beating this dead horse for just one day?
EDIT: A widened control winds at caster level 15 is a 2,400 foot diameter tornado. Think about that for a second. That's nearly half a mile wide.
I certainly am not looking forward to the party Druid in my group getting this one. Entangle is bad enough right now.. LOL
Control Winds: At caster level 15 Level a widened version of this can flatten entire cities or armies. On a large scale this is the deadliest spell in all existance. Power Word: Nuke!
Area of effect: 40 ft./level radius cylinder 40 ft. hig
Even at high caster level, it'd have to be a pretty small city.
It's a powerful spell but not out of league for a 5th level spell. Note that this is one spell in which Fighter types are pretty good at saving against.
Yes, it really is overpowered for a 5th level spell. Go and look up what tornado force winds do. Actually, here, I'll just quote it:
All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (even with siege weapons), as are sound-based Perception checks. Instead of being blown away (see Table: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado. Those who come in contact with the actual funnel cloud are picked up and whirled around for 1d10 rounds, taking 6d6 points of damage per round, before being violently expelled (falling damage might apply).
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A tornado (175+ mph) destroys all nonfortified buildings and often uproots large trees.
And that's at 40 feet radius (so 80 feet diameter) per caster level, with a single standard action to cast it. The winds do not have a "wind up" time; they instantly go to full force. Control winds is THE single most powerful anti-army spell in the entire game. It's not needed, but adding wall of fire, wall of thorns, or other similar durational area damage effects just makes it even more brutal. And remember, you have to save every round, and unless you're Gargantuan you have to save to be able to move under your own power. If you're Large or smaller, you have to save in order to even stay still.
EDIT: A widened control winds at caster level 15 is a 2,400 foot diameter tornado. Think about that for a second. That's...
As a former player of a 12th level druid, this post makes cackle with glee >:)