You should play this adventure.
Plan on it.
Start making plans.
SO EXCITED!
Vanessa, can you share what the upper level boundary is for this adventure? Is it like 14th-17th or just for 14th level characters? Thanks!
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You should play this adventure.
Plan on it.
Start making plans.
SO EXCITED!
Vanessa, can you share what the upper level boundary is for this adventure? Is it like 14th-17th or just for 14th level characters? Thanks!
James Jacobs was my developer and can shine a light on that. I'll say that it spans a few levels but you don't get to 20.
Oh wow this is so exciting!! I wonder if Mark of the Mantis would make a good pre-shot with this before you jump into the future with your characters more experienced, taking on more dangerous jobs.
I really enjoyed the one-shot and I am vibrating in my seat for the chance to get my hands on this.
Is this likely to get a Foundry VTT module? I am unsure if standalone adventures have in the past.
Creative Director
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This adventure contains content for 14th to 17th level characters. Your PCs will be 18th level by the end, and depending on how and when your GM gives out XP you might even hit 18th level before the last few encounters (as is the norm for any adventure, really...).
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Creative Director
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Oh wow this is so exciting!! I wonder if Mark of the Mantis would make a good pre-shot with this before you jump into the future with your characters more experienced, taking on more dangerous jobs.
I really enjoyed the one-shot and I am vibrating in my seat for the chance to get my hands on this.
Is this likely to get a Foundry VTT module? I am unsure if standalone adventures have in the past.
Mark of the Mantis would make a fun "get to know the Red Mantis" adventure to run for your players, yup, but it doesn't make for a very logical prequel to "Prey for Death" unless you wanted to level up your characters from Mark to Prey, I suppose... but there are some other assumptions about what your PCs are and WHO they are that the adventure wants as well. "Prey For Death" works best as a one-shot where your group makes brand new PCs using the rules and advice for creating high level evil Red Mantis assassins and Red Mantis adjacent allies as a result.
Will this have a remastered version of the Red Mantis Assassin archetype?
Very exciting! Loved Mark of the Mantis, this should be great!
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Creative Director
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Is this signalling a move to hard covers for the adventure line. Or a one off like Crown of the Kobold King? The occasional one, I can absorb the international postage, but if it is a move, I will cancel my subscription and purchase locally.
It is. We'll have more to say about the stand-alone adventure line later, once we have a better place to talk about it that's not just a store page, but starting with "Prey For Death" all standalone adventures for Pathfinder will be hardcovers and a minimum of 128 pages long. We're hoping to standardize this to 2 hardcover adventures a year.
Is this signalling a move to hard covers for the adventure line. Or a one off like Crown of the Kobold King? The occasional one, I can absorb the international postage, but if it is a move, I will cancel my subscription and purchase locally.It is. We'll have more to say about the stand-alone adventure line later, once we have a better place to talk about it that's not just a store page, but starting with "Prey For Death" all standalone adventures for Pathfinder will be hardcovers and a minimum of 128 pages long. We're hoping to standardize this to 2 hardcover adventures a year.
I'm down for that!
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Wow that’s some change. Moving towards the Wizards model. I do like the thicker adventures, but I also need thinner ones to cover more area on my overworld, and now Paizo will stop doing that. Nothing between tiny PFS Scenarios and thick standalones... Quite the blow to my worldbuilding... But maybe it’s the same in terms of pagecount? I think so off the top of my head. 2x128 is 8x32. At least try to pick regions that haven’t been covered yet, thus plugging holes in my overworld. I wouldn’t mind sacrificing variety for depth if at least that depth goes into developing underdeveloped regions.
I am sure everything will be quality anyway. Just thinking out loud in case my ramblings are helpful.
I don't think it even covers less area - so far there have been 9 Adventures in 4 and a bit years, so the 2/year of the 128 page hardcovers is about the same amount of total books.
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Mark of the Mantis would make a fun "get to know the Red Mantis" adventure to run for your players, yup, but it doesn't make for a very logical prequel to "Prey for Death" unless you wanted to level up your characters from Mark to Prey, I suppose... but there are some other assumptions about what your PCs are and WHO they are that the adventure wants as well. "Prey For Death" works best as a one-shot where your group makes brand new PCs using the rules and advice for creating high level evil Red Mantis assassins and Red Mantis adjacent allies as a result.Oh wow this is so exciting!! I wonder if Mark of the Mantis would make a good pre-shot with this before you jump into the future with your characters more experienced, taking on more dangerous jobs.
I really enjoyed the one-shot and I am vibrating in my seat for the chance to get my hands on this.
Is this likely to get a Foundry VTT module? I am unsure if standalone adventures have in the past.
Evil PCs FTW !!!
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I do love the play on words for the title
Question is will this NOT be sanctioned for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play cause you're playing "evil"?
It is. We'll have more to say about the stand-alone adventure line later, once we have a better place to talk about it that's not just a store page, but starting with "Prey For Death" all standalone adventures for Pathfinder will be hardcovers and a minimum of 128 pages long. We're hoping to standardize this to 2 hardcover adventures a year.
Good to hear from my perspective, I don't buy soft cover books... So like with the lost omens line replacing the companion line but in hardcover this makes purchasing adventures far more appealing (although like the other person not from the paizo storefront for obvious reasons)
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Organized Play Coordinator
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Question is will this NOT be sanctioned for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play cause you're playing "evil"?
The adventure is still in development so I haven't had a chance to look at it. Based on the pitch I'm not aware of any immediate issues, but we will give it a closer look than usual.
Nice!!!
Hm. Two questions: how many pages, and will there be a Player Guide?
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Back Matter Hopes
In addition to getting the Remastered Red Mantis Assassin Archetype, I hope we will seen the return of some of the other Red Mantis options we had from 1E. I have collected many, if not all, of those game elements from 1E that explicitly have a Red Mantis Assassin association below. A few of the things listed below had already appeared in 2E such as the Red Mantis Archetype and the Sawtooth Sabre.
1E Red Mantis Prestige Classes and Archetypes
Red Mantis Prestige Class - Abilities/Feats: Sneak Attack, Sabre Fighting, Prayer Attack, Red Shroud, Summon Mantis, Resurrection Sense, Mantis Form, Blood Mantis Form, Fading, Mantis Doom, Death Mantis Form, Mantis Spellcasting
Notes: With the exception of “Mantis Doom”, which could possibly be a Focus Spell for Red Mantis Assassins, everything here is in the 2E Archetype.
Red Mantis Death Slayer Prestige Class - Abilities/Feats: Channel Energy, Channel Smite, Bonus Feat, Gravegaze, Favored Enemy, Swift Smite, Infuse Sabre, Deadly Conviction, Undead Bane, Aura of Life, Mantis Spellcasting
Notes: I would love to see this updated as a branch of the 2E Archetype. With Gravegaze, Infuse Sabre, Deadly Conviction, Undead Bane, and Aura of Life being feats specific to Red Mantis Death Slayers.
Red Mantis Zealot - Abilities/Feats: Mantis Sworn, Weapon & Armor Proficiency, Sneak Attack, Sacred Reflexes, Aspect of the Mantis
Notes: The feats Mantis Sworn, Sacred Reflexes, and Aspect of the Mantis would be great additions to the Red Mantis Archetype, especially more religion inclined characters.
Red Mantis Crimson Chymist - Abilities/Feats: Crimson Discoveries, Arms of Achaekek, Blood Sight, Improved Arms of Achaekek, Ingest Venom, Mantis Mutagen
Note: This would also make a great branch off of the main Red Mantis Archetype. All of the abilities make for fun feat options.
1E Red Mantis Feats and Traits
Red Mantis Collaborator, Cultist Lineage, Ilizmagorti Native, Red Mantis Bleeding, Object of Legend (Red Mantis Hit List), Shrewd Liaison
Magic Items and Weapons
Mantis Blade (Artifact), Serithtial (Artifact), Eye of the Mantis (Wondrous Item), Mask of the Mantis (Wondrous Item), Mantis Embrace (Wondrous Item), Red Stalker Armor (Magic Armor), Crimson Bluff (Magic Weapon), Sawtooth Sabre (Weapon)
Spells and Poisons
Mirror Mantis (Spell), Scarlet Vigi (Spell)l, Bone Flense (Spell), Breath of the Mantis God (Poison), Fool’s Leprosy (Poison), Dust of Eox (Poison), Tetrodotoxin (Poison)
Notes: Hopefully the spells will return as Focus Spells or spells that are eligible for the Red Mantis Spellbook.
Deity, NPCs, and Monsters
Achaekek (Deity), Red Mantis Assassin (NPC), Red Mantis Initiate (NPC), Tetrolimulus (Creature), Kaicharek (Creature), Ioun Golem (Creature)
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Creative Director
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Hm. Two questions: how many pages, and will there be a Player Guide?
128 pages. We don't do separate Player's Guides for standalone adventures, but the first few pages of the adventure gives the GM a lot of information for them to share with their players and help them to create brand new characters.
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It is. We'll have more to say about the stand-alone adventure line later, once we have a better place to talk about it that's not just a store page, but starting with "Prey For Death" all standalone adventures for Pathfinder will be hardcovers and a minimum of 128 pages long. We're hoping to standardize this to 2 hardcover adventures a year.
I look forward to hearing more about that when the time is right, as I have to admit that I’m less than excited to hear that the standalone line will be going to longer format adventures. More isn’t always better, I was actually just thinking (before I read this), that I wish you guys went back to publishing 32 page adventures. What I’m looking for in standalone is something reasonably short that I can slip into my own campaign, whereas a 128 page adventure feels more like a campaign of its own, which is what I thought the AP line already covered; especially with the recent move to 3 book APs, it seems like the two adventure lines are moving closer together instead of each filling their own different niche.
That said, I trust you guys to put out great product, and regardless of my personal preferences for the line in general, Prey for Death does sound like a very cool adventure!
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I admit to being a little confused. One adventure, in 128 pages. In a hardcover. I would never look to buy such a product.
Given most of the AP issues I have run to about 50 pp. of *actual adventure* content, that comes to about 300 pages for 6 parts (or 150 for a three parter, or 200 for say...Season of Ghosts) for an AP. So this seems like roughly 2.5 adventures worth of one adventure, and has a level 14 to 17/18th level. Ok, it is interesting. As a concept. Specifically not my cup of tea, and the high level range means it wouldn't see use for quite a while if at all. But the shift to two 128 page hardcover standalone adventures is...interesting.
I guess the problem for me is that I'm more likely to buy a smaller standalone (like Rusthenge) if I like the theme. But I'd have to really, really like the theme to buy a bigger hardcover. I guess the good part is that if I like the theme I get a hefty adventure. But not so much as an adventure path. Which would seem to deserve hardcover given there is 300+ pages of adventure content and support material. Hmm.
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Interesting. I Looked at "Night of the Gray Death".
It's 72 pages, starts at lvl 16, and the PCs should level up to 19th on the last fight (based on the "milestones" at the start of the book).
This will be 128 pages, starts at lvl 14, and the PCs will get to 18th at the end.
...
So only one character levels more, but almost double the page count!
VERY interesting!
I wonder how they will use the extra page count... Well, ok... Presenting the Archetype will definitely eat up at least a couple pages, likely 4. STILL! There's still more than 50 extra pages that can have... LOT of stuff in them!
(Thinking more about it... TBF, that's high level adventure, and these usually need more wordcount for relatively less "character progression"... So probably NOT that much more extra stuff)
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Creative Director
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I admit to being a little confused. One adventure, in 128 pages. In a hardcover. I would never look to buy such a product.
Given most of the AP issues I have run to about 50 pp. of *actual adventure* content, that comes to about 300 pages for 6 parts (or 150 for a three parter, or 200 for say...Season of Ghosts) for an AP. So this seems like roughly 2.5 adventures worth of one adventure, and has a level 14 to 17/18th level. Ok, it is interesting. As a concept. Specifically not my cup of tea, and the high level range means it wouldn't see use for quite a while if at all. But the shift to two 128 page hardcover standalone adventures is...interesting.
I guess the problem for me is that I'm more likely to buy a smaller standalone (like Rusthenge) if I like the theme. But I'd have to really, really like the theme to buy a bigger hardcover. I guess the good part is that if I like the theme I get a hefty adventure. But not so much as an adventure path. Which would seem to deserve hardcover given there is 300+ pages of adventure content and support material. Hmm.
An Adventure Path and a standalone adventure at 128 pages are both longer form stories for adventures, but they handle different stories very differently. The classic example is the old favorite: Slay the Dragon. In an Adventure Path, that final dragonslaying encounter has to take place in the last book, meaning the first two books have to build up to that encoutner without feeling repetitive while still having their own narrative climax. Which is pretty tricky to pull off, and which is why you've not seen us do a "Slay the dragon" adventure path. Those that have come close are as much about the support plot as they are about the dragonslaying plot, to the extent that much of the adventure path feels off-scope if a player is invested in the dragon slaying plot. Adding more dragons to slay can focus that, but also dilutes the impact of one big boss dragon and by the time you DO get to that last fight, it doesn't feel unique. A standalone adventure has everything contained in one story, and at 128 pages we can add a lot of focus to that story to build to that climax while simultaneously having lots of room for support material and articles... something that shorter adventures struggle to contain.
One-shot adventures also allow us to experiment more with storylines and content. Doing an entire Adventure Path where the players are evil and high level is a very hard sell to management, but a one-shot adventure is a perfect place to do a deep dive into this topic–thus "Prey For Death" hits this spot. If we did this as a 64 page adventure, there'd be barely any room for support material, and I strongly doubt we would have been able to include a remastered Red Mantis archetype, strong support and advice to the GM for building characters for the adventure, or some other support material that you'll see when the adventure is out. It would have made for a lesser experience overall.
Hardcover adventures are also easier for us to get out into the world—by which, I mean, stores and distributors are more willing to order and stock and restock hardcover books than they are softcover ones. And even MORE willing than ones without spines at all (such as the 32 page ones).
There's lots of other ways we can get experimental with a one-shot adventure, and we'll have more to talk about that later this year.
And this gets more pagecount of adventure content out in a year to folks... but also gives us more room to explore more areas of the world that we haven't yet explored. Look at "Night of Gray Death." That one was 64 pages and we published it because we needed and wanted to tell the story, but it's one that for numerous reasons simply kept not being able to be one we had the time or resources or positioning to explore in an Adventure Path. Had we had 128 pages to tell that story, we could have given it one or two more levels to breathe, and could have included a lot more support material for the nation of Galt.
Finally, the scope of an Adventure Path still remains much larger than that for a standalone adventure. A 3 part Adventure Path traditionally covers 10 levels of play, while a standalone 128 page Adventure Path only covers half that, at most. And since we can decide how many levels a standalone coves without having to force it to reach a specific end level, that means we can be experimental with what sort of content we include. For example, we could try an experiment where we do a 128 page standalone adventure that covers only ONE level of play, but goes into things in great detail and includes a lot of branching paths and quests so that any two groups who play through it could have very different ways to reach the end—AKA: It's MUCH EASIER to do a sandbox adventure in this format than in an Adventure Path.
Time will tell, of course, if the new hardcover 128 page format for adventures will result in the line being healthier or not than it was at a 64 page softcover standard... but for many of the reasons above (particularly the one where it was hard to get stores to keep that format in stock), we're making this change to the adventure line FOR the hopeful health of the standalone adventure line.
There's a lot of opportunities I see for us in a 128 page hardcover adventure that we can't do with a shorter one, and I'm excited for folks to see what we've got planned for them in the years to come.
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Thanks James, I really appreciate the hearing your perspective on the change, and won’t derail the thread any further. And ironically, as a big fan of Galt, I now kind of wish you had done that one as a 128 pager.
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Creative Director
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Thanks James, I really appreciate the hearing your perspective on the change, and won’t derail the thread any further. And ironically, as a big fan of Galt, I now kind of wish you had done that one as a 128 pager.
Same here.
And for Malevolence as well. Had that been a 128 pager, I would have been able to present the town of Crookcove as a place to go and explore and recover from during the adventure, which would not have increased the size of the adventure as published but WOULD Have included a lengthy gazetteer of Crookcove and the hinterlands while also potentially creating some more fun handouts and clues for the players to be rewarded with similar to that one spiraling poem I included.
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@James Jacobs: I appreciate the insights into both the Paizo-end thoughts on exploring new ideas and how to effectively do that; and the ecxonomics and supply/demand for hardcovers. I know you have individually been in this game for at least a few decades, and I'm sure a lot of collective experience coupled with instinct goes into the product release/development "plan".
As for "Slay the Dragon":
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts (and experience).
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Creative Director
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@James Jacobs: I appreciate the insights into both the Paizo-end thoughts on exploring new ideas and how to effectively do that; and the ecxonomics and supply/demand for hardcovers. I know you have individually been in this game for at least a few decades, and I'm sure a lot of collective experience coupled with instinct goes into the product release/development "plan".
As for "Slay the Dragon":
** spoiler omitted **
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts (and experience).
As for your request for a "Slay the Dragon" Adventure Path...
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Will the mantis archetype be PFS legal?
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I really hope this is the final cover art...looks amazing!
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Creative Director
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Look at "Night of Gray Death." That one was 64 pages and we published it because we needed and wanted to tell the storyDors anyone know why the story of Night of Gray Death NEEDED to be told now ? It might give us insights into future products.
I do. It's not something that'd give insights into future products though.
I'd had a Galt storyline that I'd been wanting to do for YEARS, because leaving that place in eternal revolution was never really the plan. We always wanted to tell the story we did in Night of Gray Death in one way or another. But opportunities to do this story kept getting blocked for various reasons, be it as an Adventure Path, a lore book, or a standalone adventure. We generally have more ideas for stories and products than we do opportunities in a year to publish them all, and which ones DO get chosen for publication depend on a lot of complex interactive elements.
So, Galt's story just kept getting sideswiped. It ALMOST happened as an end-of-edition big adventure back in 2018 or thereabouts but at that time, there was just no capacity for us to do a standalone adventure, so it went onto the back burner and eventually landed where it did as Night of Gray Death.
It NEEDED to be told at that point because it had been waiting long enough, and had a track record of getting put off over and over again, so I was worried that if we didn't go then when everything meshed up at the same time for us to do a high-level one-shot that didn't have to tie into any other product releases thematically that it would be years before we could get there.
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Which led to the longest sitting Revolutionary Council in the history of Galt. I don't think there's a proper timeline, but if I'm correct there hadn't been a succesful revolution since 4708. There have been more than a dozen revolutions in Galt, which means that the average Revolutionary Council doesn't last 5 years.
James and we, get to see what he has been talking about the last couple years about a Mantis adventure he has been thinking a lot on and wants it to be told(unless this is something else James??).
CAN'T wait to see the new Remastered Red mantis in all its glory and seeing the tweeks that go along with it!!
My most memorable characters when I get to actually play and not GM IS this one.
SUPER EXCITED for this and I wonder if this will add more lore to our sweet sweet Mantis "Hit Squad" society.
Tom
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Creative Director
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James and we, get to see what he has been talking about the last couple years about a Mantis adventure he has been thinking a lot on and wants it to be told(unless this is something else James??).
CAN'T wait to see the new Remastered Red mantis in all its glory and seeing the tweeks that go along with it!!
My most memorable characters when I get to actually play and not GM IS this one.
SUPER EXCITED for this and I wonder if this will add more lore to our sweet sweet Mantis "Hit Squad" society.
Tom
This is very much the "You play evil PCs who are Red Mantis Assassins" adventure itch I've been eager to scratch forever. The Red Mantis Assassins are an export from my homebrew setting, and I've long wanted to get more about them in print in the form of an adventure like this one.
It's not the SAME adventure I planned back then, but to be fair, I'd had several different adventures planned (and even a novel at one point) for getting them more screen time. This one's the right adventure for the time though, and hopefully folks like it and we'll be able to do more with them in the future.
Is the Sarzari Library detailed at all in this?
Thanks James, I think the last thing you posted was some kind of assault or infiltrate the Red Mantis home base for the leader on their Island, then the Mark of the Mantis was listed and that was to tide us over as you tried to squeeze in your Mantis Home base and Leader story line, But ya things change and I hope you get to write that one!!
How did Mark of the mantis do if I could ask?
Will we get any Mantis remastered archtype info before the release date by chance (pretty please with red Manits sweet poison sprinkeled on top!!)
Also will we get any new mantis lore on the organization itself as well in this adventure?
Thanks again!!
Tom
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Creative Director
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Thanks James, I think the last thing you posted was some kind of assault or infiltrate the Red Mantis home base for the leader on their Island, then the Mark of the Mantis was listed and that was to tide us over as you tried to squeeze in your Mantis Home base and Leader story line, But ya things change and I hope you get to write that one!!
How did Mark of the mantis do if I could ask?
Will we get any Mantis remastered archtype info before the release date by chance (pretty please with red Manits sweet poison sprinkeled on top!!)
Also will we get any new mantis lore on the organization itself as well in this adventure?
Thanks again!!
Tom
Unfortunately, the digital one-shot adventure line ended up not being something we had the capacity or the proifts for to continue. I like all the adventures we did for that line and wish it had been more successful, but not all experiments are, in the end, successes to the bottom line.
We have no plans to release remastered archetype info early.
There's a lot of new lore on the Red Mantis, Achaekek, the Crimson Citadel, Ilizmagorti, and all of that in the adventure.