I think people who are criticizing the monk have never played a Pathfinder monk.
Are you claiming that people on an internet message board would run their metaphorical mouths without having any idea what they're talking about? Scandalous, I say!
I removed some posts. I get the feeling this whole conversation would go a lot smoother if people could actually say things without talking down to others, or trying to 'win' the conversation by 'tricking' their opponents into a non-existent logical contradiction.
This applies to everyone.
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I recently created a 13th level monk ...
His stunning fist isn't 18. It's 23. With the extra attack from his ki pool and Medussa's Wrath, he gets 8 attacks per round.
I had plenty enough gold left to get him Bracers of Armor +5 and a Monk's Robe. That gave me an AC of about 32.
He has a 23 SR and 15 Ref and Will saves. With Improved Dirty Trick, his initiative of +11, and his fast movement (via dimn door, base move, Acrobatics, etc.), he can -easily- close in with a Wizard and blind or entangle or grapple the Wizard for multiple rounds before the Wizard even gets a chance to act.I think people who are criticizing the monk have never played a Pathfinder monk.
The problem is that around those levels Wizards have Contingency, and -have- had teleport.
This makes all melee attackers auto-lose, and most of the rest of Team Damage auto-lose as well.
Wizards just have too much versatility and at high levels (Contingency+) it just gets absurd. I'll put the Druid close to them, sure, and Druid has some interestingly better Battlefield Control spells, yes, but....
....Wizards only get the shaft on very long work days + poor wealth, when they're somehow otherwise out of resources, or if you get the jump on them after their Contingency is used.
Yes you could Dimensional Anchor them before your meleer attacks, but it ain't the meleer casting Dim Anch unless he's a gish and then he's probably not a Monk so he probably doesn't have +11 Init and +ungodly movement... ---> or if he -DOES- have those things it's because he's using Teleport and in most other ways acting like Wizard Junior... so he might as well just be a damn Wizard.
Also as an aside, high Dex monks have serious damage problems. Even with the AGP Four Winds variant making elemental fist damage scale. Treantmonk posted a real nice guide for a viable Core Only PF Monk, but his role is BSF beefcake not blinding-speedster-flanker-guy. You may be able to make an upgraded Treantmonk BSF Monk with the new AGP monk variants (whatever the mountain/stone one is called I forgot) but I haven't actually tested that AGP monk stuff in real play yet, so, I concede conjecture on that.
I think one of the best things PF did to start leveling the Caster vs Non-Caster playing field is Master Craftsman. Now at least SOME of the Double-Wealth advantage of Casters is removed. Does cost a feat slot though...
EDIT re: Master Craftsman
--Just to clarify, this makes only a small dent in the discrepancy between caster / non-caster. But hey at least it -is- a dent.
-Goh
PS: I absolutely -LOVE- Monks, and Paladins. My favorite classes in terms of flavor and RP. That's what I play them for, flavor and RP. I just don't ever bother entering them in power-gaming competitions.
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<sigh> now I can't tell if Mistah Green ignored my post or his reply was removed for some reason.
I'll just have to live with the angst of never knowing :)
Oh well, until I see his build for the ultimate uber wizard, I'll just assume he's throwing random numbers around to try and win an argument and be done with it.
Cheers
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Crafting requires time, the correct feats, appropriate equipment and the right spells etc for the item. I can see why people can go crazy with this in some campaigns, and it would make sense to see this happen in a campaign that took years of in game play, but a large number of campaigns don't have this luxury.
Let's look at the AP's I'm familiar with
Kingmaker - this might happen, but then your buddies would be benefitting from the same deal since you've got years of down time and you could craft items for them as well. Effectively double the wealth for them as well.(as was suggested by another poster earlier)
LoF - There is one point, just after 5th level where you get about a year "off" to get things done. After that it's go go go. No crafting time there I'm afraid, so you'll have to make do with what you made at 5th level or what find from there on in.
Crimson Throne - Some potential for crafting early on, depending on how your DM paces things. Again, after about 5th level, there's almost no time for crafting as things begin to snowball quite rapidly.
Runelords - This one I can see some crafting time perhaps, depending on how your DM paces things. However, you again have the time factor and more importantly lack of facilities to truly build anything for entire sections of this AP.
I guess this is part of the reason why I don't see such mad crazy wizad builds as others, since I tend to pace my adventures on the "hectic" side of things. I'm running Kingmaker as a PbP at the moment, perhaps I'll see something different this time around with its built in down time.
I legitimately do wonder why I never see these things in play (either with at home games or in organised play). It must be a play style I guess, most likely in the disparatey between how DM's run their wolds.
Interesting.
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No wizard at 13th level will have contingency + teleport. Why not? Because you need to be 15th level before you can actually do that. Contingency works only with spells that are (character level / 3) or lower.
Additionally, just because a character has sufficient level to cast both of those spells does not mean they will both be used and in effect at all times. Why not?
1) Uses up a 6th-level spell and a 5th-level spell. That's a significant investment of resources, especially for a wizard, and especially below 16th-17th level.
2) Can create auto-lose situations for the wizard. If the wizard is attacking somebody, for example, the anti-wizard defense can consist of a single summoned celestial eagle attacking in melee. Wizard gets teleported instantly to safety and Dr. Evil's plan continues nefariously. Sure, you can dismiss it. But you might not remember to do so.
3) Makes the wizard predictable if he does this all the time. What, you mean every time someone attacks the wizard in melee, he teleports to his house? Well, let's just wait at his house and jump him then.
4) You have to find and learn both contingency and teleport. Both of which are exactly the kind of spells the GM's like to control, because they can do funny things to a game.
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No wizard at 13th level will have contingency + teleport. Why not? Because you need to be 15th level before you can actually do that. Contingency works only with spells that are (character level / 3) or lower.
Fair point on the level rule but in my defense I did say "around those levels" and Teleport is just one way to screw with people's ability to hit you. Just the obvious example.
Mirror Image is available much earlier, easily extended for "hang around time", and is effectively a very nasty miss chance. It's no accident that it's part of the Wizard's real defense, which doesn't bother with things like Armor Class.
The biggest advantage of the Big 3 classes (or maybe add Witch now I dunno... iffy) is versatility. And the Wizard's spell list is the nastiest of the bunch. At high levels the game play gets radically altered by Divination + Transportation. It's just not the same game at all anymore.
Even at mid-levels this starts to happen, it's just that once Wizards get Contingency they just got +3 to Rocket Tag Reality Control over everyone else.
Damage Dealer characters fall further & further behind as the game progresses, though feats & abilities that cause status conditions help obviate that somewhat. They're just expensive. And Summoning spells start to make Damage Dealer PCs obsolete, if all you're looking to do is powergame, because they do just as well or better the higher level you get -- especially considering their utter expend-ability.
Granted, the exceptions in my first post a couple above this one (running out of resources...) It's really the only thing limiting Wizards/Clerics/Druids - castings / day. And as their Divinations + Transport abilities get better, their castings per day become more accurately planned and therefor less of a limitation.
Additionally, just because a character has sufficient level to cast both of those spells does not mean they will both be used and in effect at all times.
Players do make mistakes by not memorizing the right spells, sure. I would only not use those slots for Contingency & transportation if I was already informed (Divination) that I didn't need them. None of the melee / non-Caster classes can match that kind of information supremacy.
4) You have to find and learn both contingency and teleport. Both of which are exactly the kind of spells the GM's like to control, because they can do funny things to a game.
You are absolutely correct, they do something funny to the game: They change it forever moving forward. That's why high level play is a totally different game. Cause of Wiz/Sorc spells lvl 6+, and Cleric/Druid spells "around that level"++.
When I'm GM'ing I -definitely- take your advice and control access to those spells if I'm somehow trying to simulate low level play with high level characters. Also nerf planeshift and all the other transport and high divinations/scry's. That's GM intervention though, not how the game is written.
My wizards always choose Teleport as one of their first 2 lvl5 spells when they hit 9th. They always choose Contingency as one of the 2 spells at 11th or 12th (depending on campaign).
@Wrath:
Crafting requires time, the correct feats, appropriate equipment and the right spells etc for the item. I can see why people can go crazy with this in some campaigns, and it would make sense to see this happen in a campaign that took years of in game play, but a large number of campaigns don't have this luxury....
I legitimately do wonder why I never see these things in play (either with at home games or in organised play). It must be a play style I guess, most likely in the disparatey between how DM's run their wolds.
Interesting.
Agreed with you on play & GM Style, I personally don't like messing with crafting; but in terms of how the game is actually written it's a factor.
In fact arguing it away only makes the melee class's situation worse as Master Craftsman is one of the few things making a dent in their problem trying to keep up with the caster classes :-(
-Goh
EDIT: Game changes at Teleport and at Planeshift. My bad on saying spell level 6+, it's sooner.
My thread has become a Munchkined-out-Wizard VS. Monk Thread???
DAMN IT!
There was a good topic going there, and a few folks even had some insightful information to add (for which I thank you!).
Look, if you want to argue that a munchkin caster with just the right spell(s) for the specific situation, can beat anything, please do it elsewhere. If you have anything to add about what spells are generally better then other spells of similar level, please continue.
Thanks,
Fergie
Sarcasm? I really can't tell.Immunity to Poison also works
I'm fond of Time Stop + Cloudkill + Forcecage. Assuming the trapped foe(s) can't teleport, they die.
People always seem to underestimate the Monk vs Wizard combat balance.
At 13th you have spell resistance, you naturally have a ridiculous touch AC and both stunning fist and quivering palm are will saves.
Laughingsmiley.gif
And this is ignoring that Wizards hit their Immunity to Stun at exactly this level.
Not sarcasm. Monks really are a joke class, and any attempt to posit them as being anything more than a source of free experience to a Wizard is either a joke itself, or someone being incredibly wrong (which is also a joke).
Even ignoring the whole 'I'm immune' thing and pretending that the Int 29 Wizard... isn't Stunning Fist follows the formula of 10 + half level + stat. This formula gets you viable results if and only if it is tied to your primary stat. Of course it's tied to Wisdom, which means either it isn't your primary stat and it does nothing but fizzle against everything that doesn't roll a 1 or it is your primary stat and you have a fail build.
And don't forget that PF nerfed Monks immensely!
I have three words for you.
Followed by other words to help drill the three words in.
Touch of Peace.
Your wizard? My friend. My homeboy. My buddy. We take long platonic walks on the beach. And you get no saving throw.
But its okay.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDDY!
My thread has become a Munchkined-out-Wizard VS. Monk Thread???
DAMN IT!
There was a good topic going there, and a few folks even had some insightful information to add (for which I thank you!).
Look, if you want to argue that a munchkin caster with just the right spell(s) for the specific situation, can beat anything, please do it elsewhere. If you have anything to add about what spells are generally better then other spells of similar level, please continue.
Thanks,
Fergie
Not a single spell listed is overpowered. A brief glance at the bestiary tells us that the monsters are using these high level abilities just as often as the party casters. That's because the game was designed from the ground up with such spells in mind. This isn't a matter of a munchkin wizards (though it seems your idea of a munchkin wizard is one that has spells appropriate to handle to challenges of his level.) This is a matter of comparing a hugely underpowered class to one that is balanced correctly for what a character of his level is supposed to be doing. There cannot be a reasonable discussion of what the true problem is unless we hold the monk up to a standard. That means comparing him first to other classes then to what monsters and challenges he is supposed to be facing. And if you do, then monks are so grossly underpowered after 10th level as to be laughable. This a problem most full BAB classes share but the monk is by far the weakest class in the game only a step above an NPC adept.
Did I mention monks suck?
This is a matter of comparing a hugely underpowered class to one that is balanced correctly for what a character of his level is supposed to be doing.I don't think I'd go so far as to say wizards are "hugely underpowered". I mean, they do have their strengths.
I don't recall saying wizards were underpowered (though if i was unclear I apologize). In fact I suggested that I thought they were perfectly fine as is. Its the monk that's underpowered...by an insulting amount.
I don't recall saying wizards were underpowered (though if i was unclear I apologize). In fact I suggested that I thought they were perfectly fine as is. Its the monk that's underpowered...by an insulting amount.
I'm pretty sure it was intended as a joke, or trolling. Either way, LilithsThrall is of such reputation that it's hard to be sure if he's serious or not.
I don't recall saying wizards were underpowered (though if i was unclear I apologize). In fact I suggested that I thought they were perfectly fine as is. Its the monk that's underpowered...by an insulting amount.I'm pretty sure it was intended as a joke, or trolling. Either way, LilithsThrall is of such reputation that it's hard to be sure if he's serious or not.
Ah I see. Well then I'll keep that in mind thanks :)
I disagree. I mean, yes, Wizards can have teleport on contingency. But, then what?
Wizards can't actually -do- anything (except, maybe, use planar binding)
Which is by itself enough to kill a monk.
to the monk unless they put themselves in range for the monk to close on them and take them out.
Oh, I don't know, use scry and fry? I wonder why people continue to think that ambushes is somehow a threat to spellcasters, when non-spellcasters are lightyears more vulnerable to them. Besides, please explain how the monk is going to close to a flying invisible visard or to take out a displacing mirrorimaged wizard. Even assuming that he has numbers to do anything in the first place, and your monks doesn't, because he has no Strengh to speak of and is made of glass, and one Stinking Cloud will end him.
The number one threat to a Wizard, bar none, is an enemy he doesn't see coming (who can attack him in his sleep or poison his food).
So, in your words, by level 13 (at the lastest), Wizards remove the number one threat to them forever.
There are ways to get around divination spells.
Examples?
Monks have the skills/abilities to not be found by the Wizard until the Monk wants to be found.
Examples?
I'd probably define this by 1) Spells that are automatic choices for a good spellcaster and 2) More powerful than their counterparts at that level and 3) Spells that continue to have disproportionate value at later levels and 4) Pathfinder only. Going by that (in no particular order)--
1. Color Spray
Actually overpowered. No other ability is as feared as this at early levels.
2. Magic Missile
Scales in power for nine levels, then is still a strong option to target with metamagic after.
3. Tongues
Bypasses the need to actually know languages, which is often a rather substantial barrier in the game.
4. Haste
Casting Haste, given the right board position and initiative situation, is usually better than almost anything else a caster can do.
5. Slow
Most underrated spell. Giving something the staggered condition makes something that was terrifying a total joke. That this is mass targetting often makes this a 3rd level mass save or die.
6. Silence
Strong when used "fairly", broken as a readied action to counter. This makes a piddly 3rd level wizard a terrifying figure in a combat for characters of any level.
7. Greater Invisibilty
If a wizard doesn't take this he is dubbed village idiot. Being untargetable by most things, while still maintaining the ability to target things yourself, is rather unfair. Add on a to hit bonus, no AoOs, and a measely 50% miss chance if something is lucky enough to even target your square and this is just sick.
8. Overland Flight
See #7. Being able to avoid unsupported melee combat is almost beyond value. That you can set this up out of combat and it last all day changes the entire combat dynamic. DMs basically have to make most areas 10ft high or less to make melee even a threat for someone with this.
9. Enervation
No save and it stacks means a focused build with this can autokill almost anyone without a ward.
10. Dimension Door
Reposition the board if you are in trouble, or simply pick up and drop your fighters for a full attack against the things that most displeases you.
Honorable mention would go to Ray of Enfeeblement if we were going by 3.5 standards. Maximizing it basically meant an autokill on anything as 11 points of strength drain with encumbrance effectively locked them to the floor and, for non-casters, means they lost feats and the ability to significantly damage anything.
There are ways to get around divination spells.Examples?
Monks have the skills/abilities to not be found by the Wizard until the Monk wants to be found.Examples?
Mind blank! Oh wait, that's wizard again. Or master spy. A 9th level master spy is undetectable by both mundane means and magic. A wizard can do that as well and is also a wizard, so again the wizard's number one enemy is another wizard.
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9. EnervationNo save and it stacks means a focused build with this can autokill almost anyone without a ward.
I was not aware of this spell until a wizard used it recently in a PFS game. I can not believe that this is not in the number one spot!!!!
This is a 4th level spell people! You make your attack roll and you can crit the 1d4 level drain!
Compare this spell to the 9th level energy drain... why the heck would you ever learn it. The 4th level version is better.
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blah blah blah
Your childish need to berate anyone who disagrees with you combined with the utter immaturity of continually referring to the class as "Mook" and your completely condescending manner make you incapable of making a point, as just about everyone disregards everything you say as an attempt at trolling.
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This. The Wizard is flying all day. He has all manner of divinations, he has 7th level spells and lower with all the awesome that entails... Mr. Mook has a Flurry of Fail, average saves, and a class feature that is supposed to help him but that actually does nothing or hinders them. He's easy experience, but that's all. If the Wizard wanted to, he could fly/teleport around targeting every monastery in the world and farm Monks like he was playing an MMO. That's how pathetic the Monk class is.Oh and you can always just use Contingent Dimension Door at level 13. Not that you will need it to kill the Mook class.
You do know that a Monk with Cloud Step can air walk, yes?
Honestly, create your character. I'll create a monk. We'll see.
This forum is the antithesis of productive discussion, and further you have no reputation to the contrary. Quite the opposite of that negative. There is nothing to prove. God tier > fail tier, no contest. It can and has been done so many times it's not even funny. Even with significant disadvantages on the part of the caster such as level 12 vs level 20, and the caster deliberately beating them at their own game out of spite.
I believe that fight went something like this:
Caster goes first, smacks Monk in melee for around 150. Keep in mind, level 12 caster vs level 20 mook. The mook player tried to claim this missed, but that's because he didn't know the difference between normal AC and touch AC.
Mook unleashes a Flurry of Misses, and performs exactly as expected.
He is then put out of his misery.
PF might mess with the gish build as they get melee nerfs on them, but that's ok because actual spells work better anyways, and SR is a joke.
Didn't Dire Mongoose crush you earlier. I mean, I know the mod deleted it, but it was epic. You know when you called everyone clowns and talked about how you "trapped" us, then he showed you the actual rule and you stopped posting.
I was hoping that when you got critically by Dire Mongooses +5 Troll Bane Greatsword, you would take a moment to reflect.
But...here you go again. I'm going to flag again, we'll see what Ross thinks. He's a good and fair mod, even if I wish he had kept that one post...but this is me speaking honestly, to you.
You probably have things to add to this discussion. Things of value, that might lead to an interesting discussion. But you seem more interested in "winning" than discussing, which makes the rest of us want to "beat" you.
And while that is a lot of fun (Seriously, Dire Mongoose's one line crushing post was epic) it doesn't move the conversation along, and leads to isolated rules being pulled out of context and argued over ad nauseum.
Now we keep asking you to actually build the character you are describing, not to be oppositional, but to point out that rules exist in context to other rules. That yes you can have a wizard with a really high fort save...if you make sacrifices in other areas that will then leave you with weaknesses to other things.
But you don't seem to want to have this discussion. You seem to want to win. And then...well...you don't.
No one (except maybe Ross) can make you stop engaging in discussions in the manner you do. One in which you want to have a war to prove you are right, rather than a discussion to figure out things. To get you to stop making it about you, personally, and have you join the community to discuss things objectively, without cherry picking rules when they fit your narrative.
Because if you keep it up, you'll keep getting pwned. And while it's amusing to for me personally to read when this happens, I can see how people get tired of the messageboard clutter.
And again, shout out to Dire Mongoose on that post. Super win. Sorry it was deleted.
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You assume a Wizard would only have a +6 init, instead of the much more accurate +26 or more. As such there is nothing to discuss with you, as you aren't talking about your Mook beating a Wizard. You are talking about your Mook beating a scarecrow with a shirt embroidered to say Wizard on it.
Care to explain where all that initiative comes from? No 3.5 sources; PF only.