I'm not convinced on this one.
First of all, this spell is really powerful ONLY if you are alone...
Ehm, yes, thats the point.
"You wait here and hold this little receptacle save till I have cleared the dungeon, ok?"
Sounds OPed to me.
Interesting thread.
Planar Binding - I think its fair to treat this spell as a meeting rather than enslavement. If the player knows the game world and a faction is eager to have some effect in a region, why shouldn't they enable that effect.
Alignment has to work in one of these games. The great white city of blitzdonmeer is preparing for attack. You offer a planar binding to an angelic host to help build the walls. If the action is compatible with the summoned creature and they are satisfied to stay I think you are actually helping each other.
In some settings you are enabling the summoned creature to stay on your plane for a time. When they otherwise couldn't. Some figures of the various armies don't have a life. They wait or prepare for the next great battle. If you present an original strategic option, I think they'd be pleased - hence the alignment shift in their direction.
Gentle Repose: Its not an attack spell but I think it deserves mention here. That one spell turns death into an inconvenience.
I agree that Color Spray is a very good first level spell. The only reason I think it is not overpowered is because of its limited range. Thin-skinned casters frequently are a bit hesitant to close within 15' of the enemy (easy range for even a slow critter to close and crush, if it makes its save or is just outside the range of the spell). That is compounded by the fact that it goes out in a cone, meaning none of the caster's buddies can be in between or they will be caught in the effect as well. Those dangers make it an appropriate first level spell, IMHO.
Regarding Planar Binding, as with any summoning spell, it is important to remember that these powerful beings you are summoning aren't just sitting in a celestial waiting room somewhere expecting a call. They are living their lives. If they are powerful, chances are pretty good that whatever they are doing is important (at least to them), and they won't be happy to be interrupted. Therefore, I think it would be reasonable to assume that they will arrive with at least a somewhat hostile attitude. Granted, a really excellent and humble plea for assistance in a worthy cause might change that attitude, but there is a significant danger that the PCs will make a powerful enemy for life with this spell.
+1 If any spell is equivalent to slavery, its summon monster. That creature HAS to do what you say, and DOES NOT get a save or charisma check to refuse.
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+1 If any spell is equivalent to slavery, its summon monster. That creature HAS to do what you say, and DOES NOT get a save or charisma check to refuse.I agree that Color Spray is a very good first level spell. The only reason I think it is not overpowered is because of its limited range. Thin-skinned casters frequently are a bit hesitant to close within 15' of the enemy (easy range for even a slow critter to close and crush, if it makes its save or is just outside the range of the spell). That is compounded by the fact that it goes out in a cone, meaning none of the caster's buddies can be in between or they will be caught in the effect as well. Those dangers make it an appropriate first level spell, IMHO.
Regarding Planar Binding, as with any summoning spell, it is important to remember that these powerful beings you are summoning aren't just sitting in a celestial waiting room somewhere expecting a call. They are living their lives. If they are powerful, chances are pretty good that whatever they are doing is important (at least to them), and they won't be happy to be interrupted. Therefore, I think it would be reasonable to assume that they will arrive with at least a somewhat hostile attitude. Granted, a really excellent and humble plea for assistance in a worthy cause might change that attitude, but there is a significant danger that the PCs will make a powerful enemy for life with this spell.
wasn't there a OOTS comic done that pretty much set that up? I'm thinking it appeared in a Dragon mag awhile back. I remember thinking it was the funniest things I ever read.
I'm not convinced on this one.
First of all, this spell is really powerful ONLY if you are alone...
Ehm, yes, thats the point.
"You wait here and hold this little receptacle save till I have cleared the dungeon, ok?"
Sounds OPed to me.
Not to me, since the receptacle must come near the creature to be possessed (10 ft. per caster level with line of effect, so a simple wall blocks the possession), and your lifeless body should better be brought too, otherwise IF the spell is dispelled you die.
You can try to solo the dungeon, but the risks are simply too great, IMHO.
Since Bestow Curse is a touch attack, could you score a crit on the minus to ability function of the spell?
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
Wall of Thorns is one of the best ways to immobilize people in the game. Sure, some of the basics hinder it, like freedom of movement or being a ranger or druid, but any large monster or non-caster is pretty much screwed. Combine with cloudkill to great effect.
Some of the reasons:
Its durration is 10 min/ level, longer than most other walls.
Its one of the only walls that can be cast on people, and it totally prevents their movement. There is no save for this. You can shape this arround your allies as you see fit.
It requires a strength check to make any movement that your barbarian will have significant trouble with... Even the Terrasque will have a 50/50 of moving 5 feet in his turn. A T-Rex, the CR of when you get the spell, will need a 14 with his str 32.
Its faster for your high str character to break through a Wall of Force than a Wall of Thorns.
You can still attack someone trapped within a wall of thorns, and as a druid you can go up and hit them with melee/touch attacks and they can't retreat.
Since Bestow Curse is a touch attack, could you score a crit on the minus to ability function of the spell?
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
Technically you could. However, you would double the damage dealt by the spell.
Now, Bestow Curse can:
1) give a decrease of -6 to an ability score. Please note that this is not a damage - the score effectively decreases by 6 point (to a minimum of 1), effectively 'freezing' the availability of higher-level spells, score-dependent Feats (like Power Attack or Dodge), and so on. But, not being a 'damage', it cannot multiply.
2) give a -4 penalty to attacks, saves, etc. Again, this is a penalty (not a damage), and as such is not multiplied.
3) 50% to take no actions. Self explicatory, no damage involved.
So I would say that a crit on Bestow Curse would be simply wasted (much like a Ray of Enfeeblement, which gives a PENALTY to Strength, not Strength damage - and so unaffected by a crit).
Obviously I expect to be contraddicted in a few posts :D .
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Since Bestow Curse is a touch attack, could you score a crit on the minus to ability function of the spell?
I would say no. Bestow curse provides an effect "-6 decrease" rather than damage.
For me Ray of Exhaustion is a killer for living foes. Especially in the hands of a sorc with the quicken spell or rod of quicken. Barring spell resistance, a quick succession of two rays of exhaustion garuntees an exhausted target. Follow that with a ray of enfeeblement and you have an easy pickens...
Since Bestow Curse is a touch attack, could you score a crit on the minus to ability function of the spell?
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
Technically you could. However, you would double the damage dealt by the spell.
Now, Bestow Curse can:
1) give a decrease of -6 to an ability score. Please note that this is not a damage - the score effectively decreases by 6 point (to a minimum of 1), effectively 'freezing' the availability of higher-level spells, score-dependent Feats (like Power Attack or Dodge), and so on. But, not being a 'damage', it cannot multiply.
2) give a -4 penalty to attacks, saves, etc. Again, this is a penalty (not a damage), and as such is not multiplied.
3) 50% to take no actions. Self explicatory, no damage involved.So I would say that a crit on Bestow Curse would be simply wasted (much like a Ray of Enfeeblement, which gives a PENALTY to Strength, not Strength damage - and so unaffected by a crit).
Obviously I expect to be contraddicted in a few posts :D .
Nope, you're fine. Bestow curse doesn't deal damage, so no bonus for critical hits. Not a bad spell if you're willing to use it, but there are better spells (e.g. slow, which if it works steals actions from multiple targets).
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2. Hold Person
I feel this spell is overpowered because it allows a 3rd level cleric to set up a coup de grace of a humanoid regardless of AC or total HP. Sure there is a save every round, but if the caster times the spell for when an ally is already in melee, the victim is going to need to roll a 20 to survive.
It used to be a whole lot worse. In second edition, Hold Person gave you one attempt to save and lasted for turns. TURNS. Each turn was ten rounds and each round was one full minute in length. Which meant if you failed your save you were done for at least ten minutes (i.e. the entire fight). I remember it being an "Damn! Ok, I'm going to go to the store and get some snacks" spell. At least now you get a save every round.
It's not slavery. You don't barter with slaves. At worst, it's servitude.
It's slavery, pure and simple. Most rational and powerful beings would want justice, revenge or both. There's a reason one rarely sees a -good- character do this sort of thing in fiction, and a reason the bad guys are so often dead at the end of such stories.
I think kidnapping is a more accurate description.
I can't believe how powerful silence is against a caster. If you are in a dungeon my players would always cast it on an object to negate any saves and leave the spell caster in serious trouble!
And then your caster either A) picked up the object (move action) and threw it back (standard action) or B) moved away (move action) and then cast a spell (standard action), right? A 20' radius isn't that hard to get out of, and even if the caster has no idea what object got enchanted, as soon as the sound goes off, he knows that a straight line move of 20' should put him outside the area of effect.
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Not in a dungeon setting. Often rooms are entirely covered by a 40 foot diameter. We would have the cleric silence the fighter's shield (added bonus of high chance of suprise) and move into a position to lockdown spellcasters (attack mode). Meanwhile the cleric and Mage stayed just outside the door. It didn't work in every scenario, but it worked more often than one would think.
Not in a dungeon setting. Often rooms are entirely covered by a 40 foot diameter. We would have the cleric silence the fighter's shield (added bonus of high chance of suprise) and move into a position to lockdown spellcasters (attack mode). Meanwhile the cleric and Mage stayed just outside the door. It didn't work in every scenario, but it worked more often than one would think.
Good strategy. So now the fighter is stealthy but probably also easier to surprise with a pair of rogues. Also, where's the spellcaster's fighter to defend him? And what's keeping him in that room? He can't just walk out another door into a hallway and then send arcane death back into the room that's now conveniently quiet?
I love silence as much as the next guy, but overpowered it isn't. Useful, sure, but not overpowered.
It used to be a whole lot worse. In second edition, Hold Person gave you one attempt to save and lasted for turns. TURNS. Each turn was ten rounds and each round was one full minute in length. Which meant if you failed your save you were done for at least ten minutes (i.e. the entire fight). I remember it being an "Damn! Ok, I'm going to go to the store and get some snacks" spell. At least now you get a save every round.
2. Hold Person
I feel this spell is overpowered because it allows a 3rd level cleric to set up a coup de grace of a humanoid regardless of AC or total HP. Sure there is a save every round, but if the caster times the spell for when an ally is already in melee, the victim is going to need to roll a 20 to survive.
And it affected more than one person (you took a save penalty if you were the sole target!)
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If anyone should take rogues it's the fighter, and face it, silenced or no they're stealthing the fighter. Fighters aren't there to guard mages; how often do you keep your front line and support close together? At the very least the Mage is taking an AOO, and someone is using an action to open a door.
With that said, it's fine; it's not the head exploded anti-magic, black tentacles, and time stop are (only 3 banned spells in my campaign).
If anyone should take rogues it's the fighter, and face it, silenced or no they're stealthing the fighter. Fighters aren't there to guard mages; how often do you keep your front line and support close together? At the very least the Mage is taking an AOO, and someone is using an action to open a door.
With that said, it's fine; it's not the head exploded anti-magic, black tentacles, and time stop are (only 3 banned spells in my campaign).
Anti-magic is a nuisance, until you realize that whoever casts that spell just rendered magic around himself unable to use magic. Not only that, but unable to receive magic. Sure, some fighter with a high UMD could get a scroll of it and use it...and get beaten down by a monster that doesn't use magic. The spellcaster who uses it just said 'sorry, not in the mood to cast spells just now'.
Black tentacles is nasty, I gotta say.
Time stop is annoying, but only comes up in high-level play. Therefore, by the time you see it, you've earned the right to have it. Besides, it's the only way I remember beating Demogorgon in Baldur's Gate II;)
Most of the spells on your list are too limited to be really overpowered as in earth shaking! Color Spray may be nice at first level but really doesn't change the gaming environment a lot.
I consider three spells downright overpowered to the point I forbid them:
3rd place
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None of these spells are over powered. you have to be 18 or 19th level to case time stop. you should be powerful. overpowered to me has to include level and context and what level you are. it's hard for me to consider any of the 9th level spells over powered because at that level npc monsters of your equivlent hd will be similarly powerful.
color spray may not change the enviroment, but it is grossly overpowered for it's level. it's an aoe that uses a will save, that in all pratical effect kills all 0-4hd creatures that fail thier saves.
is it the most powerful spell on an absolute level? no that would be wish, but is it the most powerful in context of level and the creatures your facing when you get it, and what it does, absolutely.
unless your fighting undead or blind creatures there are very few level 1-2 encounters that cannot be out right ended with one casting color of spray.
our gm resorted to having us fight a orge at first level, too bad they have such crappy will saves.
i love casters but color spray usage at first and 2nd level is pure cheese.
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I can't believe how powerful silence is against a caster. If you are in a dungeon my players would always cast it on an object to negate any saves and leave the spell caster in serious trouble!And then your caster either A) picked up the object (move action) and threw it back (standard action) or B) moved away (move action) and then cast a spell (standard action), right? A 20' radius isn't that hard to get out of, and even if the caster has no idea what object got enchanted, as soon as the sound goes off, he knows that a straight line move of 20' should put him outside the area of effect.
..or they could cast it on a point on the ground. 20' radius is fairly big in some pre written modules, often filling the whole area the caster can move in. Maybe it's not overpowered but I would suggest it's up there in the right scenario.
If you're a good character summoning a good planar being, you use Planar Ally, not Planar Binding. Planar Ally allows negotiation also and if your task is worthy, the ally waives 25-50% (or all) of the fee.
Bottom Line: Planar Ally is what the being does WITHOUT coercion, of their own free will. They might very well do the task for free, but they might not. Planar Binding, coercion is implied, otherwise the being would ask for the same compensation (or more) than they would in the Planar Ally spell.
Also note that Planar Ally calls a switchboard which basically assigns a WILLING and ABLE creature (from your god) to help you. Planar Binding, you're grabbing the closest (random) planar being of the type specified, whether they are available or willing to help you at all. If the ally is good and was available, you could have just used Planar Ally to call him (or a similar ally).
Planar Binding should be used by good characters to bind elementals, non-intelligent planar beings, demons/devils, and "named" planar beings (they want to interrogate). With intelligent / powerful planar beings, expect a backlash of some sort, at some time.
Even if the planar being is good and you are good, there better be a damn good reason you're calling them there, and they will probably ask for the customary (Planar Ally) gifts anyway. And ask that you go through the regular channels next time instead of just lifting a random angel from the sky.
If you use Planar Binding a number of times on good planar allies, maybe word gets around and the creature might refuse to help you without going through the proper channels and proper sacrifices.
As DM, that's how I interpret it.
Time stop is annoying, but only comes up in high-level play. Therefore, by the time you see it, you've earned the right to have it. Besides, it's the only way I remember beating Demogorgon in Baldur's Gate II;)
Actually, it was the best way to be utterly trashed by Demogorgon in BGII:ToB, since Demogorgon was totally immune to Time Stop and the ending result was a frozen party and a free to act Wizard or Sorcerer (since BG2 introduced an AD&D-Sorcerer) vs the big D...
Time Stop is definitely annoying AND powerful, but it's one of the top-scale spells of the game (... if you exclude the various Epic Spells in the Epic) and has several limitation, like the fact that no damage can be dealt during the frozen-time to other creatures (... while in previous editions, creatures could be damaged while under Time Stop - like in BG2...).
Now, if somebody should create an EPIC Spell which would allow damage even during the frozen time... it would be a JoJo/Dio Brando slugfest.
THE WORLD ! Tokiyo Tomare !
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Soshite, toki ga ugoki desu !
- total annihilation -
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Anti-magic field; seriously. This is especially true for NPCs (where you get dragons destroying the universe), but even PC groups can auto-win many encounters with it. We used to regularly destroy encounters. Arcane archer even lets you put it on an arrow, shoot it into the fighter, and still let's you cast spells :).
this
i've read this entire list and disagree with all of it. time stop yes...but come ON! YOUR 18TH OR 19TH LEVEL before you COULD get your hands on it. Please. Dominates and Calls...ohhh...dismissal or anti-magic and your done. I had a wicked 20th level aberrant sorcerer fight fall in one round because of anti-magic. The players simply waited for him to telekinetic something big and heavy to throw and BOOM...crushed.
Nothing screws overs PC's and NPC's more than a well placed anti-magic. It is to the point, my players don't pick those spells out of respect for the game's integrity.
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I agree that Color Spray is a very good first level spell. The only reason I think it is not overpowered is because of its limited range. Thin-skinned casters frequently are a bit hesitant to close within 15' of the enemy (easy range for even a slow critter to close and crush, if it makes its save or is just outside the range of the spell). That is compounded by the fact that it goes out in a cone, meaning none of the caster's buddies can be in between or they will be caught in the effect as well. Those dangers make it an appropriate first level spell, IMHO.
Regarding Planar Binding, as with any summoning spell, it is important to remember that these powerful beings you are summoning aren't just sitting in a celestial waiting room somewhere expecting a call. They are living their lives. If they are powerful, chances are pretty good that whatever they are doing is important (at least to them), and they won't be happy to be interrupted. Therefore, I think it would be reasonable to assume that they will arrive with at least a somewhat hostile attitude. Granted, a really excellent and humble plea for assistance in a worthy cause might change that attitude, but there is a significant danger that the PCs will make a powerful enemy for life with this spell.
Been awhile since I've seen Planar Binding, but can't you just say "serve me for X days." And as for the binding and making enemies...why not just bind an evil critter, then kill it when you're done with it?
Time stop is annoying, but only comes up in high-level play. Therefore, by the time you see it, you've earned the right to have it. Besides, it's the only way I remember beating Demogorgon in Baldur's Gate II;)
Actually, it was the best way to be utterly trashed by Demogorgon in BGII:ToB, since Demogorgon was totally immune to Time Stop and the ending result was a frozen party and a free to act Wizard or Sorcerer (since BG2 introduced an AD&D-Sorcerer) vs the big D...
Ah, but all he did was summon minions; he couldn't get to my party on the platform behind him through the ranks of his own fodder. When you've got 3 separate sources of the spell in the party, each one laying down tons of cloud spells, the result is that all the minions got annihilated, I made a lot of saves vs. what Big D threw at me, and then his vaunted MR had to contend with about 15 checks/round. The attrition was atrocious;)
And then the fighters went in and batted cleanup, the way melee types should;)
If you're a good character summoning a good planar being, you use Planar Ally, not Planar Binding. Planar Ally allows negotiation also and if your task is worthy, the ally waives 25-50% (or all) of the fee.
Bottom Line: Planar Ally is what the being does WITHOUT coercion, of their own free will. They might very well do the task for free, but they might not. Planar Binding, coercion is implied, otherwise the being would ask for the same compensation (or more) than they would in the Planar Ally spell.
I'd agree with you if both spells were Wizard\Cleric. They are at their core a meeting on our plane between a caster and an extraplanar entity. The nature of the 'Trap' or the 'Willingness' of the summoned are well within the realms of roleplay.
If you are in touch with your alignment and or the aims of extra planar beings you should be able to offer an advantageous trap or a cooperation of willing entities.
In literature wizards have various shades of bound creatures. If its possible that the summoned creature could have compatible desires (and it is) then it only stands to reason that you can exploit this magic for allies, no matter the title of the spell.
Sigurd.
This is not RAW but I think its a compelling interpretation.
Color Spray was only an honorable mention because it's a 15'cone, and does not scale at the higher levels. Once you pass about 5-6 level does any mage really want to be with in 15' of a creature hoping it fails his lowest spell DC?
I left most of the high level magic off the list because it is ALL so damn powerful! Implosion, energy drain, shapechange, dominate monster, imprisonment, etc. Crazy stuff, BUT you have to be a high level caster (with all the downsides of that), or have a super maxed UMD, and lay down serious gp for items. I'm more concerned with the lower level spells that can be used frequently, and even used by classes that don't have it on their spell lists.
Anti-magic field doesn't make the list because it is 6 sor/wiz, or 8 cleric. Also, it totally shuts down the caster who is basically walking around naked. It might have great applications for whacking a mage when used with good team work, but I don't think it is even the best 6th level spell.
Also, this list is from a player/GM perspective. Most of the spells work well for both, but things like dominate person, are just savage as spell like abilities for vampires and aboleths.
Anti-magic field doesn't make the list because it is 6 sor/wiz, or 8 cleric. Also, it totally shuts down the caster who is basically walking around naked. It might have great applications for whacking a mage when used with good team work, but I don't think it is even the best 6th level spell.
Also, this list is from a player/GM perspective. Most of the spells work well for both, but things like dominate person, are just savage as spell like abilities for vampires and aboleths.
Actually, I think antimagic field is probably more useful for the GM than for the PCs: one example. Also, "This spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting... Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned." An antimagic field, in combination with tough opponents, can be very deadly.
Oh Noes! Not the hold person! Nevermind I could get a bigger effect out of stinking cloud and hit multiple people with it!
If hold person is bad then Ghoul Touch must be worse since it's lower level -- and don't even think about protection from evil on that one!
Dominate person? Yeah anyone with half of an imagination is going to have fun with that one -- after all you *literally* open all commands *literally* -- "Hit that guy" Ok the character pulls back his fist and hits him... for no damage -- didn't tell me to hurt him just to hit him. "Carry this for me" ok but you didn't tell me to move. Not going to sleep until commanded either so you could easily end up with an exhausted creature -- who might not hear you tell him to wake up. Do you even speak its language?
Deafness is a permanent 20% spell failure for a spell caster -- much worse than "I simply can't see you." Blindness a bad spell? Bah go look at pryotechnics same level but can get a hold group instead of just one person.
I don't think "overpowered" means what you think it does -- or at least you are looking in the wrong places for it.
Anti magic field is one of my favorite spells for an eldritch knight.
My group has an ongoing discussion concerning the various illusion spells. Silent image of a wall will stop enemies who fail their will save. If they see another person go through the illusionary wall, they get another check with a bonus. Could the other players lead a character through if that character failed (this case was an epic fail) his will roll short of being unconscious?
Oh Noes! Not the hold person! Nevermind I could get a bigger effect out of stinking cloud and hit multiple people with it!
If hold person is bad then Ghoul Touch must be worse since it's lower level -- and don't even think about protection from evil on that one!
Dominate person? Yeah anyone with half of an imagination is going to have fun with that one -- after all you *literally* open all commands *literally* -- "Hit that guy" Ok the character pulls back his fist and hits him... for no damage -- didn't tell me to hurt him just to hit him. "Carry this for me" ok but you didn't tell me to move. Not going to sleep until commanded either so you could easily end up with an exhausted creature -- who might not hear you tell him to wake up. Do you even speak its language?
Deafness is a permanent 20% spell failure for a spell caster -- much worse than "I simply can't see you." Blindness a bad spell? Bah go look at pryotechnics same level but can get a hold group instead of just one person.
I don't think "overpowered" means what you think it does -- or at least you are looking in the wrong places for it.
Anti magic field is one of my favorite spells for an eldritch knight.
I love your interpretation of Dominate Person. I allow characters to roleplay through a charm person; they just have to pretend that they love the caster of charm person, but can act normally with respect to all other actions. That allowed them to kill off minions even when the Charmer was saying "No! Those are my friends." Answer: "Sorry, these minions are evil; so you will thank me later." Now I have a good way to allow characters to continue roleplaying through a Dominate Person, albeit with much less ability to do much. Still, finding a way to legally thwart a command is quite a bit cooler than just taking their character sheet away from them. Good stuff.
I love your interpretation of Dominate Person. I allow characters to roleplay through a charm person; they just have to pretend that they love the caster of charm person, but can act normally with respect to all other actions. That allowed them to kill off minions even when the Charmer was saying "No! Those are my friends." Answer: "Sorry, these minions are evil; so you will thank me later." Now I have a good way to allow characters to continue roleplaying through a Dominate Person, albeit with much less ability to do much. Still, finding a way to legally thwart a command is quite a bit cooler than just taking their character sheet away from them. Good stuff....
Dominate person? Yeah anyone with half of an imagination is going to have fun with that one -- after all you *literally* open all commands *literally* -- "Hit that guy" Ok the character pulls back his fist and hits him... for no damage -- didn't tell me to hurt him just to hit him. "Carry this for me" ok but you didn't tell me to move. Not going to sleep until commanded either so you could easily end up with an exhausted creature -- who might not hear you tell him to wake up. Do you even speak its language?...
As a GM that seems like a iffy idea. It seems like it could be fun but be poor roleplaying.
Why? Well what would a player do if he dominated a enemy and the GM was allowed to 'roleplay' the domination like that? Would the player feel cheated and think the GM was being a dink? I would think so. Why? Doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game and the spell.
Wall of Thorns is overpowered by a mile, and ambigiously worded (its a spell but deals real physical damage, I personally treat it as Piercing damage that bypasses Magic DR which is how its intended I am sure...since no other spells deal physical damage beyond Ice Storm (which deals COLD and Bludgeoning, and the Bludgeoning is mitigated by DR of the creature so should Wall of Thorns since both spells deal physical damage).
Protection From Evil is pretty sweet, gives a blanket protection versus evil outsiders and enchantment effects (though I personally believe that should only apply to enchantment effects originating from Evil beings/outsiders).
Blindness is so much more useful than Deafness, a real classic save-or-suck spell that can end encounters before they really begin.
Dominate Person/Monster...a absolutely loyal minion for DAYS at a time?, that'll do ANY unreasonable or life threatening request without complaint?, sign me up.
Cloudkill, deadly poisonous cloud that automatically kills all low HD creatures and slightly higher level creatures get a save or die?, check. Deal Con damage to stronger foes who remain in the radius every round?, check. Pretty awesome spell all around.
Solid Fog is pretty awesome, controls a battlefield really good and limits perception. This'll even stop a ship in its tracks if cast on a seagoing vessel, and not to mention if your Rogue pal set up a snare with bells before you cast it, you sit back wait for the chime and let loose with AOE spells into the effected area knowing somethings there. If you dont have a Rogue buddy?, then cast an Alarm spell, does the same thing...
Hold Person/Monster...always been a killer, since 2nd Edition, sure you get to save every round but sometimes all it takes is one Coup De Gras or a Rogue to pincushion you.
Sleep is pretty deadly, puts creatures to sleep allowing you to finish them off easily.
Color Spray is deadly, always has been, delivers a medley of effects and is useful for several levels.
Reverse Gravity is a killer too, holds foes aloft or throws them into the air and when the spell is dismissed/expires, drops them from a great height.
Disintegrate has always been deadly, 2d6 per caster level (40d6 max) with 5d6 on a successful save?, anything this hits is dust (literally) making it the highest damage deadling spell in the game.
Scorching Ray deadling 4d6 at low levels with additional rays every couple of levels that you get it?, get yourself some Precision Damage to go with it on the side and your laughing.
Blur, against anyone else a 20% miss chance doesnt do much, but this one spell more or less completely shuts down ANY Precision Damage character (Rogue, Shadowdancer, Assassin, etc).
Mirror Image is a classic, creates illusionary copies of the caster...and if you AOE them with a fireball?, well the images all remain (just they might look crispy since the mage will likely take some damage without Evasion and the images all copy him in likeness through the casting)...you dont know which is the right one. Unless the images are all bunched together, even a Great Cleave isnt going to take care of them all.
Ray Of Enfeeblement inflicts a penalty to a stat even on a successful save, this can severely cripple a 2 handed opponent or opponent who relies on high STR even with a decent roll thats halved.
Mind Blank...sure its 8th level, but theres NO reason spellcasters shouldnt be casting this every day when they get access to it. Perhaps one of the best spells out there - blanket immunity to scrying/divination and massive bonuses to mind effecting spells and effects, and it lasts for 24 hours.
Silence is a classic...cast it on a Rogue whos sneaking up on some sleeping foes, and nobodys ever going to wake up and hear their friends gurgling cries in the night as theyre picked off one at a time. Ontop of that, give this to a Monk who likes to grapple or a Fighter thats good at shutting down Mages and have them close to melee range and its likely all over for the Mage (I havent seen many mages bother with Silent Spell)
Enervation/Energy Drain, these behemoths can rob a character blind of attack bonuses, saves and skill bonuses, as well as access to higher level spells they may have previously memorised.
Feeblemind is a mage-killer, most Mages might have this prepared incase they go up against another spellcaster, and it effectively turns the foe into drooling animal that can still act and attack but importantly robs them of their spells.
Greater Invisibility deserves a mention, in the hands of any character this spell is uber deadly, in a Rogues hands triply so as each and every attack they make for the duration of the spell is a Sneak Attack (excluding Blindsight and so forth).
Darkness can be a Rogue stopper for one or more people, especially if they havent got Darkvision from some source, in 3.5 it still gave 20% concealment even if you had Darkvision, though I am sure thats been fixed in Pathfinder...but still, no Darkvision means no Sneak Attack.
Dimensional Anchor...use this and the BBEG is going to have to find some ingenious way outside of Teleport/Dimension Door to get away (with no saving throw its a true winner). And in my experience...most bad guys especially at higher levels depend on Teleport in particular (especially Evil Outsider BBEG's) to get away to live to fight another day.
Summon Monster/Unseen Servant/Animate Objects/Animate Dead all fall under the 'expendable plebian' category, used for all manner of (well thought out) useful tasks....trap finding, slowing down pursuers, helping your Rogue buddy get a flanker, swarming the battlefield with chaff to control the flow of battle and so on. Every spellcaster should have access to some or all of these spells.
Levitate/Fly may not be in themselves deadly, but in an open area and your opponents a beast or an opponent without ranged attacks?, just sit back, munch some popcorn and shoot some fish in a barrel (sure some foes will be smart enough to try and run off or hide, if theres more than one of you doing this trick though then at least one of you are going to get an attack every round).
Black Tentacles are always a classic, good for controlling a battlefield (though the damage is pretty meagre) through grappling anything that comes near. Just sit back and let the ranged attacks go against snared foes.
Entangle is similar to Black Tentacles in its battlefield controlling operations, but you need some vegetation to make it work...still, at low levels, I have seen this put an end to most bad guys plans to charge you or to capture/ensnare several of their minions, plus moving through an effected area is VERY difficult.
Searing Light is one of few decent Cleric attack spells, and wow, does it bust up Undead and Evil Outsiders good. Any cleric worth their salt should always have at least ONE of these prepared by level 5.
Bestow Curse is pretty deadly (penalty to a stat, 50% miss chance with every attack, etc or whatever you choose) though its easy to remove if you have access to a 5th level Cleric. It can still be a game changer/winner though if you pull it off.
Thats about all I can think of for now...
I see some very strange things on this thread:
blindness Is this really better than Glitterdust? It hits the save that is traditionally the highest, it affects only one target, and it doesn't end invisibility. Glitterdust is going to be worth the duration more often than not.
"greater" invisibility a massive reduction in duration that allows you to make direct attacks. Yes, your party rogue can make sneak attacks - but there are other ways to get your rogue sneak attack that last longer and have improved alternate uses. For yourself? Use regular invisibility and buff or summon.
scorching ray Is OK for a blast, but not great. A dedicated archer does more direct damage on average, and you give up the one advantage a spell blaster has over the archer (area of effect).
[b]solid fog[b] I'm guessing that those mentioning this spell haven't looked at the changes Pathfinder made? If you have, then look at Sleet Storm, which is a lower level spell, yet better overall.
It just seems weird to me that these spells are being pointed out.
Spells are powerful, and the above are good or at least decent. However, if I'm listing overpowered spells I'm looking at illusions that require "interaction" to get a save (starting with Silent Image), Top notch battlefield control (Wall of stone, Black Tentacles), Mass debuff (Stinking cloud, Glitterdust), and super multi use (Dimension door for example)
For the record, I certainly agree with a couple of the spells listed (Magic jar, planar binding, protection from evil - except the part about it being the best spell in the game)
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Hey Treantmonk, mind weighing in on the Planar Binding debate going on in this thread? I'm curious your thoughts (keep in mind some of the outsiders have changed in the transition from 3.5 to PF, it caught me offguard lol)
Sure.
All the Planar Binding spells are seriously broken. The problem (which existed in previous incarnations of the rules, and would have been an easy fix btw) is that there is no minimum offer stipulated.
That means that my Wizard can cast planar binding, offer the outsider summoned a deal like, "serve me unquestioningly for the next X days, and in return I'll let you live." and the DM provides the minimum bonus for this awful deal, which is +0. The wizard player then smiles and gets his bonuses from debuffing the poor outsider before making the deal (or just keeps trying until it works).
This has no limit. You want a bearded devil bodyguard? Get lesser planar binding. You want 10 bearded devil bodyguards? Get lesser planar binding.
This is before we get into stuff like efreeti wish abuse and the like. (Good DMs will nip this in the butt if they allow it at all, "Just to clarify, you want the Efreeti to raze your attributes?")
Lots of broken stuff to summon. After all, we're talking slave here (and since the creature is called, not summoned, no pesky "can't teleport" type limitations)
HD isn't really a problem. Look over your bestiary. If I had lesser planar binding for example, I could bind a hound archon (6HD) - this gives me a magic circle against evil permanently radiating around my slave. In addition he can cast aid once per round every combat, or use greater teleport, and he can communicate with anything. This is useful stuff at any level.
In 3.5 I used to bind Bone Devils with my Malconvoker. Then I would use the Bone Devil as a fly battery (it can cast fly at will) to keep the entire party flying whenever it was needed. The rest of the time I would use him to dimensional anchor badguys or throw up walls of ice (he at least did take a normal planar binding spell).
Or here's an interesting use of lesser planar binding: Bind a barghest. Yes he's very useful (blink, levitate, and misdirection at will. Dimension door, Charm monster and crushing despair 1/day). However, that's not the greater purpose. Feed the Barghest and he gets a growth point (and becomes tougher).
Now bind him next month and repeat
Now bind him next month and repeat
Now bind him next month and repeat and you now have a Greater Barghest for the remainder of the "deal" with a lesser planar binding spell.
In the end, all the planar binding spells are stupidly broken. I no longer use them simply out of self respect.
I'm inclined to view any spell that has "save negates" as inherently less powerful, at least in most cases. Too unreliable. That said, I don't particularly like Phantasmal Killer, and when my group's sorcerer took it, I inwardly cringed. I wouldn't give it to a bad guy, because nobody wants to lose their character on a single bad roll. Well, two bad die rolls, but still, it's rather sudden, and.. Well, not very sportstman-like.
I'm inclined to view any spell that has "save negates" as inherently less powerful, at least in most cases. Too unreliable.
I would agree that it can be unreliable but when it does it work it wins the fight. Tossing a fireball at someone is always going to do something but rarely will it take someone out with just the single action. That being said, it can make some fights really boring as the BBEG fails a save in the first round and game over. Makes the rest of the party wonder why they bothered to show up.
Makes the rest of the party wonder why they bothered to show up.
This is something I try and cover often -- why did you show up when I managed to one hit the boss? Everything else we did on the way in. I couldn't have handled those giants, the three traps, the horde of orcs, the long climb up pass the wyverns on my own and still have been in any shape to take out the boss with that spell -- the team effort to get here allowed me to provide the team with an easy go this one time.
Their contributions is what made the chance of that spell even being cast happen -- just like when the fighter kills a big baddie in one round because I held back the minions with a well placed wall spell -- or got him there faster with telekinesis, or gave him another attack with the haste spell.
Yeah my one spell killed the boss -- but it didn't get me to where I could cast it.
Makes the rest of the party wonder why they bothered to show up.This is something I try and cover often -- why did you show up when I managed to one hit the boss? Everything else we did on the way in. I couldn't have handled those giants, the three traps, the horde of orcs, the long climb up pass the wyverns on my own and still have been in any shape to take out the boss with that spell -- the team effort to get here allowed me to provide the team with an easy go this one time.
Their contributions is what made the chance of that spell even being cast happen -- just like when the fighter kills a big baddie in one round because I held back the minions with a well placed wall spell -- or got him there faster with telekinesis, or gave him another attack with the haste spell.
Yeah my one spell killed the boss -- but it didn't get me to where I could cast it.
+1
People have a nasty habit of comparing this to that and stating how something is just broken while another is suck. Fact is, it's all situational. Yes, spells are good. They're supposed to be. If a fighter could change up his feats every day would that give him the versatality of the wizard? If combat types had a feat that let them drop a foe Ina single attack would that balance things out?
Know your role. Also, know why you play. If you think the caster is outshining your combat/skill type character then ask yourself, is there something I can do differently. Is the GM going easy on the caster? Don't be shy about pulling him/her aside and addressing your concerns. Just because someone has Timestop doesn't mean they can't be challenged. What if there was a monster that was immune to Timestop or could act along with the caster during those three rounds? I guarentee, the first time someone cast Timestop and some temporal entity lays the smack down they will think twice in the future.
Yes, the game does not inherantly address certain issues, but that's the beauty of this game. You can add things that address the issues yourself. This is why we have these conversations! It allows us to group think a solution if one is necessary.
Colorspray getting you down? Use grimlocks on the party. Dominate monster giving you fits? Potions of protection from, well, anything will stop that cold. Enervation? Death ward! For the most part there are answers and most are perfectly legit.
The most powerful spell in the game is Dispel Magic, because it deals with the powerful thing in the game, magic!