D'OH!!!
I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but Black Tentacles has always seemed a little too effective to me.
Really? I've always found it to be really weak. Like fireball, it only works on weak enemies. Against large and/or powerful foes, its CMB can't hope to compete.
Yes, it really is overpowered for a 5th level spell. Go and look up what tornado force winds do. Actually, here, I'll just quote it:
All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (even with siege weapons), as are sound-based Perception checks. Instead of being blown away (see Table: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado. Those who come in contact with the actual funnel cloud are picked up and whirled around for 1d10 rounds, taking 6d6 points of damage per round, before being violently expelled (falling damage might apply).
...
A tornado (175+ mph) destroys all nonfortified buildings and often uproots large trees.
And that's at 40 feet radius (so 80 feet diameter) per caster level, with a single standard action to cast it. The winds do not have a "wind up" time; they instantly go to full force. Control winds is THE single most powerful anti-army spell in the entire game. It's not needed, but adding wall of fire, wall of thorns, or other similar durational area damage effects just makes it even more brutal. And remember, you have to save every round, and unless you're Gargantuan you have to save to be able to move under your own power. If you're Large or smaller, you have to save in order to even stay still.
EDIT: A widened control winds at caster level 15 is a 2,400 foot diameter tornado. Think about that for a second. That's nearly half a mile wide.
This is one of those things that makes me so very glad that I worked out class and level demographics for my campaign world. I can look at this spell, realize that only Druids can cast it, then examine the population numbers of my world to determine how many actual Druids are capable of this bullshizz. Let's see: there are just over 185,000,000 sentient humanoids alive on the entire continent that comprises the "civilized world". Of these, roughly 2-3% have any levels in a PC class (different races produce PC-classed folks at different rates). Let's say 2.5% is a good average, for 4,625,000 PC classed types in existence. Now, I'll spare you the rest of the math, but my calculations from there give me approximately 450 Druids capable of casting control winds at all, for the whole continent.
Of those capable of casting it, far fewer can do what's being described. From a light wind, it actually requires an 18th level Druid to pull it up to tornado force wind (the spell description omits wind effects which have no combat effect, although they still count as steps in the spell's progression). But moderate winds (also omitted) are fairly common, so let's say the Druid has that on his side and can manage it at 15th level. So, my math gives me a total of 7 characters on the continent who are capable of that level of destruction. That makes me feel a bit better.
Oh, and for the record, 56 characters could manage it if they already had strong natural winds with which to work, and all 450 could pull it off if they had severe winds already kicking it. So take that for what it's worth.
I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but Black Tentacles has always seemed a little too effective to me.Really? I've always found it to be really weak. Like fireball, it only works on weak enemies. Against large and/or powerful foes, its CMB can't hope to compete.
Yeah but against almost ANY humanoid it's a near instant win. We don't fight a lot of the really big monsters very often.
Control winds is still absurdly powerful even if you can "only" get hurricane or severe windstorm force winds out of it, for the record. Hurricanes make Medium-sized characters save or be blown away, while the next step down is save or be checked (unable to move against the wind) for Medium size, and the radius is unchanged. You don't get the 1d10x6d6 (average 115.5) damage, but that much control is still incredible.
Control winds is still absurdly powerful even if you can "only" get hurricane or severe windstorm force winds out of it, for the record. Hurricanes make Medium-sized characters save or be blown away, while the next step down is save or be checked (unable to move against the wind) for Medium size, and the radius is unchanged. You don't get the 1d10x6d6 (average 115.5) damage, but that much control is still incredible.
Oh, too true. Note that I'm not questioning the spell's power. I'm just feeling very thankful that I've actually worked out the balance of power in my world, so that I can comfort myself with the spell's rarity.
Control winds is still absurdly powerful even if you can "only" get hurricane or severe windstorm force winds out of it, for the record. Hurricanes make Medium-sized characters save or be blown away, while the next step down is save or be checked (unable to move against the wind) for Medium size, and the radius is unchanged. You don't get the 1d10x6d6 (average 115.5) damage, but that much control is still incredible.Oh, too true. Note that I'm not questioning the spell's power. I'm just feeling very thankful that I've actually worked out the balance of power in my world, so that I can comfort myself with the spell's rarity.
Have you figured in Wizards who can cast Limited Wish? Or the "Uber" guys with their Miracle and Wish?
I always laugh when people say that Druids have the worst spell list of the full casters. Between entangle, control winds, wall of thorns, spike stones, earthquake, and so on, they have arguably the best large-scale control/destruction list in the game. And that's just out of the PRD; their list improves even more with access to 3rd party spells.
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Immunity to Poison also works
I'm fond of Time Stop + Cloudkill + Forcecage. Assuming the trapped foe(s) can't teleport, they die.
People always seem to underestimate the Monk vs Wizard combat balance.
At 13th you have spell resistance, you naturally have a ridiculous touch AC and both stunning fist and quivering palm are will saves.
Immunity to Poison also works
I'm fond of Time Stop + Cloudkill + Forcecage. Assuming the trapped foe(s) can't teleport, they die.
People always seem to underestimate the Monk vs Wizard combat balance.
At 13th you have spell resistance, you naturally have a ridiculous touch AC and both stunning fist and quivering palm are will saves.
I thought they were fort saves IIRC, but in any event you can check the WoTC board as to why a monk most likely won't be taking a wizard down. Style of play is a large factor though.
PS:If they were will saves it is better for the wizard since it is normally the fort saves that suck for them.
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Immunity to Poison also works
I'm fond of Time Stop + Cloudkill + Forcecage. Assuming the trapped foe(s) can't teleport, they die.
People always seem to underestimate the Monk vs Wizard combat balance.
At 13th you have spell resistance, you naturally have a ridiculous touch AC and both stunning fist and quivering palm are will saves.
I thought they were fort saves IIRC, but in any event you can check the WoTC board as to why a monk most likely won't be taking a wizard down. Style of play is a large factor though.
PS:If they were will saves it is better for the wizard since it is normally the fort saves that suck for them.
Sorry, I meant fort saves.
Maze [no save]
If you're stupid, you're going to be lonely for a long time...
Essentially, the most important limitation on spells is that the caster is restricted to a set number of castings per day, with the highest spell levels the most limited. The other limiting factors include casting time, material components, potential targets, versatility, duration, and relevance. What is overpowered on one campaign or setting may be worthless in another, but in general, these spells are better then similar spells of the same level in many circumstances.
Finally, I left out the spells that can be exploited by setting up a business based on casting the spell, such as the 3.5 version of Wall of Iron. If a high level wizard wants to become an NPC iron salesman, go for it.
1. Dominate Person
Where do I begin with this one... This is worse then death, since it basically turns you into the personal hand puppet of the caster. It allows the caster to give you commands and even know what you are seeing, hearing, etc. from anywhere on the plane! And if all of this isn't bad enough, the duration is DAYS/level! You don't even have to memorize or cast this everyday and you can walk around with a pet storm giant or BBEG caster. Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell, considering that humanoids (now with giants!) are the most common type of creature in most games, this is like getting a 9th level spell as an 11th level character.2. Hold Person
I feel this spell is overpowered because it allows a 3rd level cleric to set up a coup de grace of a humanoid regardless of AC or total HP. Sure there is a save every round, but if the caster times the spell for when an ally is already in melee, the victim is going to need to roll a 20 to survive.3. Protection from Evil
This 1st level spell basically grants blanket immunity from most of the enchantment school of magic. If you are already enchanted, you get a second chance with a bonus. It also makes you essentially immune from summoned creatures. If it was +2 to AC and saves, it would be a fine 1st level spell, as...
Every one of these spells can be overcome without much effort. So to say they are super powerful is a bit of a stretch.
Example: My Wizard was getting his butt kicked by a drow rogue buffed with greater invisibility. Solution…..the Rangers wolf was told to guard my Wizard. The wolfs sent ability gave away the rogue every time and the rogue died.
And this is ignoring that Wizards hit their Immunity to Stun at exactly this level.
What 7th level spell confers immunity to stunning?
Example: My Wizard was getting his butt kicked by a drow rogue buffed with greater invisibility. Solution…..the Rangers wolf was told to guard my Wizard. The wolfs sent ability gave away the rogue every time and the rogue died.
How did you not die on the first full attack? I'm assuming you didn't have a spell going to make you immune to sneak damage or the wolf wouldn't be relevant.
This example more sounds like your DM softballing you than anything else.
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Er, shouldn't magic be powerful. It's magic... Agreeing that some spells do wonderful things, but not seeing how they can be termed over-powered. A fighter with a 50% to hit and +4 to damage with a long sword can do 73440 hp of damage over a 24 hour period - that's every critter I know of dead. Is that over-powered also?
S.
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Immunity to Poison also works
I'm fond of Time Stop + Cloudkill + Forcecage. Assuming the trapped foe(s) can't teleport, they die.
People always seem to underestimate the Monk vs Wizard combat balance.
At 13th you have spell resistance, you naturally have a ridiculous touch AC and both stunning fist and quivering palm are will saves.
Laughingsmiley.gif
And this is ignoring that Wizards hit their Immunity to Stun at exactly this level.
Sarcasm? I really can't tell.
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Immunity to Poison also works
I'm fond of Time Stop + Cloudkill + Forcecage. Assuming the trapped foe(s) can't teleport, they die.
People always seem to underestimate the Monk vs Wizard combat balance.
At 13th you have spell resistance, you naturally have a ridiculous touch AC and both stunning fist and quivering palm are will saves.
Laughingsmiley.gif
And this is ignoring that Wizards hit their Immunity to Stun at exactly this level.
Sarcasm? I really can't tell.
Of course it's tied to Wisdom, which means either it isn't your primary stat and it does nothing but fizzle against everything that doesn't roll a 1 or it is your primary stat and you have a fail build.
Unless it's something you can do basically for free while doing what you'd be doing anyway, which it is.
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Indeed, facts are superior to jokes. That's why you shouldn't present a DC 18 save as anything but trivial to a level 12 anything. It's also why you shouldn't compare to a hilariously gimped character to try and prove your fail build doesn't fail.The real Wizard has 4 base, 5 Con, 2 familiar + buffs and items and can easily hit 16, thereby getting to auto pass rate. Further those buffs are long duration, either all day or 10 minutes per level out of low level slots so they are always on. Not only is +16 trivial to hit, but +21 or more is expected.
Now you could add another point or two to that DC, but that's about it. No matter what, you have a Flurry of Fizzles.
So now you're suggesting your wizard has a 20 con and a 29 intelligence, before buffs at level 12. Please build me this wizard, 20 point buy if you will (since it seems to be about the standard array).
I'd like you to list the Pathfinder spells you are using for these buffs as well, no alternate sources at this stage, since this is a Pathfinder discussion thread after all.
Let's assume that you've consumed 15% of your wealth to this point on consumables used while levelling to 12. Items like scrolls and learning spells (the cost to scribe spells until the point you got your book of scribe for free). For that penalty we can assume you have about 6 spells above the minimum you learn for free I guess, but you can take more if you can justify it.
I'd truly like to see the way a guy like you, who seems to fully believe in the power of the wizard, is able to build such monsters. It would be informative to me as a DM and may enlighten me as to why a portion of the gaming community feel so strongly that way.
Cheers
So now you're suggesting your wizard has a 20 con and a 29 intelligence, before buffs at level 12. Please build me this wizard, 20 point buy if you will (since it seems to be about the standard array).
I'd like you to list the Pathfinder spells you are using for these buffs as well, no alternate sources at this stage, since this is a Pathfinder discussion thread after all.
Did Paizo officially dropped the claim of reverse compatibility?
Did Paizo officially dropped the claim of reverse compatibility?
No, but I don't think anyone has ever claimed that if you allow all the crazy crap that piled up from years of 3.X, you get a game that's remotely balanced.
Edit: Core is incredibly unbalanced in favor of caster gods. PF hasn't changed this, they've embraced it. But in any case the numbers I gave were examples from an actual game, extrapolated to level 12. The full save line for such a level 12 character would be 21/14/18. Stat line would be 8/10/20/29/10/10. 25 PB, but 20 just means taking Str and Cha to 7 which detracts absolutely no power from the build. Conversely going from 25 to 20 PB severely hinders anyone with MAD, such as the Monk. So I will give you a chance here and assume 25 PB.
And once again you completely fail to explain how you achieve those saves within pathfinder rules.
Well, it should be pretty easy to reverse engineer the saves of a 12th level wizard.
target saves:
Fort: +21
Ref: +14
Will: +18
Base saves:
Fort: +4
Ref: +4
Will: +8
Stat boosts: +5 Fort from con
We can assume that three feats were spent for +2 all saves, (Great Foritude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes)
That gets us to 11/6/10.
Wealth by level of 108,000 gp is instantly doubled due to crafting, so 216K gp to buy gear. 25K goes to a +5 Cloak of Resistance. So we're at 16/11/15.
Perhaps we assume a caster always has an appropriate Magic Circle up? that would be +2 across the board, but let's keep looking.
Bear's Enduarnace, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom would each give a +2, but those are short-term buffs, so skip those.
Heroism gives +2 saves for 10 min/level.
Ok, if we assume a magic circle/protection spell, and heroism, then we're at +20/+15/+19. We're on a clock now, with a couple hours of buff time. but in standard SWAT-style play, that's plenty of time. I'm clearly not making the build the same way he is, but I imagine it's close. I'm not even doing anything 'stupid' like wasting a party slot with a bard.
So, given 20-25 point buy, crafting for gp savings, then Mistah Green isn't out of the realm of possibility. However, most people playing don't make all-caster SWAT assault teams built on the premise that Save-or-Suck is the end all be all, and devoting all resources to increasing saves/DCs.
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Not sarcasm. Monks really are a joke class, and any attempt to posit them as being anything more than a source of free experience to a Wizard is either a joke itself, or someone being incredibly wrong (which is also a joke).
Even ignoring the whole 'I'm immune' thing and pretending that the Int 29 Wizard... isn't Stunning Fist follows the formula of 10 + half level + stat. This formula gets you viable results if and only if it is tied to your primary stat. Of course it's tied to Wisdom, which means either it isn't your primary stat and it does nothing but fizzle against everything that doesn't roll a 1 or it is your primary stat and you have a fail build.
And don't forget that PF nerfed Monks immensely!
You clearly have never played a monk.
Wisdom is your AC, Stunning Fist, and Quivering Palm, etc...You are going to have this high. Intelligence and Charisma are your dump stats.
I don't know why I am bothering, you are the one who argued in another thread that rogues could take epic feats at 10th due to a "loophole"...
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And your Str, Dex, and Con are what? Not high at all, if you are using Wis as your primary stat.
Even ignoring the whole 'I'm immune' thing and pretending that the Int 29 Wizard... isn't Stunning Fist follows the formula of 10 + half level + stat. This formula gets you viable results if and only if it is tied to your primary stat. Of course it's tied to Wisdom, which means either it isn't your primary stat and it does nothing but fizzle against everything that doesn't roll a 1 or it is your primary stat and you have a fail build.But I'll humor you and say you have a 50 PB or something, and 200% standard WBL so you can afford to treat Wisdom in the same manner the Wizard treats Int, treat Con the same way as the Wizard so you don't go splat every other combat and still manage high Str/Dex + items.
Your stun DC is now 24. You fizzle on a 3 or better....
You want to play crazy. Let's play crazy. Rather than theory, actually build your Wizard and post it.
I'm at work, I'll post mine when I get home. Or someone else can post one if they like.
The monk will have ALL good saves, and can buy the same cloaks as you, and has improved evasion and a touch AC as high as his regular armor, not to mention spell resistance and immunity to all diseases and poisons.
But you won't actually post a character. That would mean you could actually be pinned down and not just pick moving targets with really high stats that you actually have to explain how you got.
Those saves are the suxx0rs!11!1 :P
I have a 15th-level character with Fort +31, Ref +28, Will +35 (+37 vs. fear).
He auto passes every cR-appropriate save he comes across unless he rolls a natural 1.
If he is able, he can give himself an additional +6 stackable bonus to all saves (and other stats) for 1 round as a standard action.
He can also increase his saves in other ways, but they either don't stack, or are inferior to the above option due to limited action economy.