I just wanted to declare my love for the bard.
After some deliberation and waffling in decision, I went with an Archer Bard based off of some of the suggestions made in this guide.
I gotta say - amazing. I'm still casting like a pro (Put 8 orcs to sleep at level 2 as well as used Silent Image to distract a fire drake that was going to KILL us without it.)
And I was contributing to damage almost as much as the level 2 Magus was (Though her use of Burning Hands and her own bow was crucial to winning the fight.)
A few things suddenly occurred to me about the Bard. In a lot of ways they're better than the Sorcerer at early levels.
1. They still get key first level spells like Grease and Sleep, except they also get things like Cure Light Wounds for backup damage control.
2. They get MORE known spells early, although they get two castings per day less than the Sorcerer the extra versatility is crucial. In the long run they get just as many known spells (thanks to bloodline bonuses), but at level 2 I was practically the party caster while the party sorcerer was stuck contributing by using Ghost Sound on my silent image...
3. They get level 2 spells at the same time the Sorcerer does. The sorcerer always gets two more castings than the Bard does early on, but the Bard always gets one more spell known than the Sorcerer does up until level 6 when the Sorcerer finally picks up and starts getting level 3 spells before the Bard.
And these are just the ways that they are comparable where they're similar. Even when the classes diverge as far as casting goes, the Bard still has a better BAB making something like an archer build that much more viable. He still has skill points and versatile performance making him an easy party face, and potentially a great scout.
Good Job Paizo for making a class that isn't completely left crying in the corner wishing he'd played something else.
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What are your opinions on the Dawnflower Dervish from Inner Sea Magic? I'm toying with the idea of playing one for our next campaign, but currently it seems like there will be no full-BAB character to take the front line. I love how the Dawnflower Dervish delivers a fully functional Dex-based combat style right at level 1 (free Dervish Dance, don't need Finesse, can take Piranha Strike and Arcane Strike at 1st); however, being unable to cast Shield and probably ending up with a Con of 12 or so, I'd be awfully squishy for a frontliner.
I might have to go with an Alchemist or a Magus after all, but I just find those first few levels without Dex to damage very... unaesthetic. :\
What are your opinions on the Dawnflower Dervish from Inner Sea Magic? I'm toying with the idea of playing one for our next campaign, but currently it seems like there will be no full-BAB character to take the front line. I love how the Dawnflower Dervish delivers a fully functional Dex-based combat style right at level 1 (free Dervish Dance, don't need Finesse, can take Piranha Strike and Arcane Strike at 1st); however, being unable to cast Shield and probably ending up with a Con of 12 or so, I'd be awfully squishy for a frontliner.
I might have to go with an Alchemist or a Magus after all, but I just find those first few levels without Dex to damage very... unaesthetic. :\
Are you talking about the fighter archetype?
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can take Piranha Strike and Arcane Strike at 1st); :\
You can't take Piranha Strike since you don't have the Weapon finesse
prerequisite.As to being squishy, as a Bard you've got enough skill points that you can take the +1 hit point favoured class bonus to help a little. Without Bardic knowledge there is a lot less incentive to spend oodles and oodles of points on knowledge skills.
I've started playing one in PFS and its been a lot of fun so far. Way too early to tell if it is hardy enough to be a front liner. Given that PFS tends to be not too deadly I think the character will do ok.
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Are you talking about the fighter archetype?What are your opinions on the Dawnflower Dervish from Inner Sea Magic? I'm toying with the idea of playing one for our next campaign, but currently it seems like there will be no full-BAB character to take the front line. I love how the Dawnflower Dervish delivers a fully functional Dex-based combat style right at level 1 (free Dervish Dance, don't need Finesse, can take Piranha Strike and Arcane Strike at 1st); however, being unable to cast Shield and probably ending up with a Con of 12 or so, I'd be awfully squishy for a frontliner.
I might have to go with an Alchemist or a Magus after all, but I just find those first few levels without Dex to damage very... unaesthetic. :\
No, there's a bard archetype with the same name. (This is an... issue... with Paizo. One of the few I really have with their editorial practices, actually.)
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Dervish Dancer:Dervish DancerNot all bards inspire others with their performances. Dervish dancers enter a near-mystical trance that allows them to push their bodies beyond normal limits.
Weapon and Armor ProficiencyDervish dancers gain weapon proficiency with the scimitar and kukri.
This ability replaces their proficiency with the rapier and whip.
Battle DanceA dervish dancer is trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except the dervish dancer only affects himself, and does not need to be able to see or hear his own performance. Battle dancing is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance, except that battle dancing does not benefit from the Lingering Performance feat or any other ability that allows a bardic performance to grant bonuses after it has ended. Battle dancing benefits apply only when the bard is wearing light or no armor. Like bardic performance, it cannot be maintained at the same time as other performance abilities.
Starting a battle dance is a move action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a battle dance from one effect to another requires the dervish dancer to stop the previous performance and start the new one as a move action. Like a bard, a dervish dancer’s performance ends immediately if he is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action each round. A dervish dancer cannot perform more than one battle dance at a time. At 10th level, a dervish dancer can start a battle dance as a swift action instead of a move action.
Dervish dancers gain the inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics bardic performance types as battle dances, but these only provide benefit to the dervish dancer himself.
Rain of Blows (Su)At 6th level, a dervish dancer can use his battle dance to speed up his attacks. When making a full attack action, he may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding, as though under the effects of a haste spell. He also gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and on Reflex saves. At 9th level, and every three bard levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. These bonuses do not stack with the haste spell.
This ability replaces suggestion and mass suggestion.
Razor’s Kiss (Su)At 8th level, a dervish dancer can use his battle dance to improve his weapons’ critical range. All attacks he makes with manufactured weapons are treated as though he had the Improved Critical feat. Natural weapons and spells are not affected.
This ability replaces dirge of doom.
Leaf on the Wind (Su)At 14th level, a dervish dancer can use his battle dance to evade attacks with unearthly grace and to shake off the effects of his wounds. Unlike other battle dances, leaf on the wind requires a standard action each round to start or maintain the performance. Each round it is maintained, including the first, the dervish dancer gains a +6 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. If wounded, he heals 1 hit point of damage per bard level.
This ability replaces frightening tune.
Fleet (Su)While performing a battle dance, a dervish dancer gains a +10 enhancement bonus to his land speed. This bonus increases by 5 feet for every four bard levels gained after 1st level, to a maximum of +30 feet at 19th level.
This ability replaces bardic knowledge and lore master.
Versatile Dance (Ex)At 2nd level, a dervish dancer gains a bonus equal to half his level on Perform (dance) checks. He can use his bonus for his Perform (dance) skill in place of his bonus for Acrobatics.
This ability replaces versatile performance.
Dance of Fury (Su)At 12th level, a dervish dancer can attack more than once as he moves while performing a battle dance. He can combine a full-attack action with a single move, taking the attacks at any point during his movement, but must move at least 5 feet between each attack. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
This ability replaces soothing performance.
Battle Fury (Su)At 20th level, the dervish dancer can unleash a whirlwind of blows while performing a battle dance. As a full-round action, he can take a single move action and unleash a single attack at his highest bonus against each target within his reach during any point of his move, up to a maximum number of attacks equal to the dervish dancer’s character level. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
This ability replaces deadly performance.
[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
Section 15: Copyright Notice - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate CombatPathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Combat. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jason Bulmahn, Tim Hitchcock, Colin McComb, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Sean K Reynolds, Owen K.C. Stephens, and Russ Taylor.
here yuou go :)
** spoiler omitted **...
This is the dervish dancer archetype from UC, Catharsis asked about the dawnflower dervish archetype from inner sea magic.
Dervish Dancer bard is quite a capable melee, but loses inspire courage.
Kinda like a good fighter with spells and crap AC.
Frankly I'd rather play a Arcane Duelist or Magus.
The Dawnflower Dervish fighter is freakin awesome for a pounce switch hitter but is not a bard.
I don't own inner sea magic, unsure if there is a Dawnflower Dervish Bard.
Ok guys in order to be clear, there are 3 dervish archetypes:
1) Dawnflower dervish: inner sea primer, fighter archetype (pounce like effect and ignore some difficult terrain)
2) Dawnflower Dervish: inner sea magic, bard archetype (loses inspire courage to everyone but gains double bonus on himself, built in dervish dance (the feat), some healing stuff)
3) Dervish Dancer: ultimate combat, bard archetype (loses inspire courage to everyone but normal on himself, pounce like effect, spring attack like effect but better)
I didn't write the whole give/get of each archetype only the highlights.
Treantmonk if you don't have access to inner sea magic i would be happy to post the entire archetype. (the UC archetype is on the d20pfsrd)
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Hello! I would like to say that I am a HUGE fan of your guides Treantmonk; while the groups I play with put much more focus on roleplaying than on combat ability (not mutually exclusive, I know, just saying we are likely to have interesting characters that are lousy in a fight more often than other groups) I very much enjoy the crunch aspect of gaming as well and have found your guides enlightening.
My question for you, and please excuse me if this has already been addressed as I did not peruse this thread with a fine-toothed comb, is do you plan to/will you pretty please update/expand your guide to include options from APG/UM/UC? Obviously we would not expect you to do it for every new splatbook, but these three add some pretty major things, especially the concept of archetypes.
If not, perhaps you will give me your opinion on a few specific things regarding a character I am playing in a Carrion Crown PBP. I am playing an Archivist bard, focusing strongly on knowledge skills (Int is my highest attribute and I still don't seem to have enough skill points!) who uses a whip. So, what I would like to know is a) your opinion of the Archivist archetype, b) your opinion on the new whip feats in UC (not to mention Serpent's Lash and Greater Serpent's Lash from the Rival Guide) and which feats overall would be most effective for a feat-starved bard (I was thinking of Leadership, but I don't think I can afford the feat), and c) any specific changes to spell recommendations for an undead-heavy campaign (I already have my eye on at least scrolls of Ghostbane Dirge)?
The character is still level one, and, as PBP games tend to, is moving at a glacial pace, but I tend to like to plan ahead...
Anyone else who wants to chime in, I will gladly take the advice, but I am specifically hoping to hear from the great and wise Treantmonk. :P Thanks in advance!
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Yes, I was talking about the Bard archetype called Dawnflower Dervish.
Piranha Strike requires Finesse, you're right. Damn. That undoes a lot of the benefit of getting Dervish Dance for free at 1st level. :( I figure I could move it back a bit, like this...
1 Arcane Strike
H Finesse
3 Piranha Strike
...or maybe even push it back to 5th level and pick Toughness at 1st first. I was also going to fit Extra Performance in there somewhere... maybe push back Arcane Strike also?
With a 15 pt buy, I could afford a 18 Dex, 14 Con, and 14 Cha without having to sacrifice too much dignity into dump stats. I'd put the favored class bonus into HP, of course.
Do you think such a character would be survivable in the frontline until I get access to Mirror Image?
Hmpf.
I guess I could always play a Magus instead. It would take him 3 levels to get Dervish Dance, and he would do rather piddly damage before that, but at least he'd be safer than the Bard, having access to Shield right away and not even having to sacrifice a round to cast it in the middle of combat. I couldn't afford to dump Str like I can for the Bard, so probably the Dex or Con would have to suffer, but starting at level 3, the Magus would sail past the Bard and never look back.
Piranha strike doesn't work with dervish dance (the feat) becuase piranha strike requires you to use a light weapon and the scimitar isn't and the dervish dance feat doesn't make it a light weapon either.
You have to get a STR 13 in order to get power attack.
Ok guys in order to be clear, there are 3 dervish archetypes:
1) Dawnflower dervish: inner sea primer, fighter archetype (pounce like effect and ignore some difficult terrain)
2) Dawnflower Dervish: inner sea magic, bard archetype (loses inspire courage to everyone but gains double bonus on himself, built in dervish dance (the feat), some healing stuff)
3) Dervish Dancer: ultimate combat, bard archetype (loses inspire courage to everyone but normal on himself, pounce like effect, spring attack like effect but better)I didn't write the whole give/get of each archetype only the highlights.
Treantmonk if you don't have access to inner sea magic i would be happy to post the entire archetype. (the UC archetype is on the d20pfsrd)
I don't own it, but I'm hesitant to request the posting of specific material from Paizo products. Not sure if that is OK.
is do you plan to/will you pretty please update/expand your guide to include options from APG/UM/UC?
MAYBE eventually the APG (I like the APG, but have lacked the motivation to update the guides).
UC/UM probably not (was less fond of both sourcebooks, and only bought UM in PDF, UC I haven't bought at all, just looked at a friend's copy).
We'll see though, I want to hold of commitments either way. Messageboards are a low priority in my life, just a source of occasional fun. If it stops being fun, and starts feeling too much like work, then I stop.
I'll look at your specific requests after work (I'll try to remember), but I have to go now.
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Piranha strike doesn't work with dervish dance (the feat) becuase piranha strike requires you to use a light weapon and the scimitar isn't and the dervish dance feat doesn't make it a light weapon either.
You have to get a STR 13 in order to get power attack.
Actually, Dervish Dance makes the scimitar count as a light piercing weapon whenever it would be beneficial. That includes qualifying for Finesse.
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@Treantmonk: Thank you for the quick response on the general question. Hope to hear your thoughts on the specific ones when you get the chance.
@Catharsis: I am unsure if it was changed somewhere, but the PFSRD states that it makes the scimitar count as a one-handed piercing weapon, not a light piercing weapon.
I don't own it, but I'm hesitant to request the posting of specific material from Paizo products. Not sure if that is OK.Ok guys in order to be clear, there are 3 dervish archetypes:
1) Dawnflower dervish: inner sea primer, fighter archetype (pounce like effect and ignore some difficult terrain)
2) Dawnflower Dervish: inner sea magic, bard archetype (loses inspire courage to everyone but gains double bonus on himself, built in dervish dance (the feat), some healing stuff)
3) Dervish Dancer: ultimate combat, bard archetype (loses inspire courage to everyone but normal on himself, pounce like effect, spring attack like effect but better)I didn't write the whole give/get of each archetype only the highlights.
Treantmonk if you don't have access to inner sea magic i would be happy to post the entire archetype. (the UC archetype is on the d20pfsrd)
Since the d20pfsrd is allowed to do it and other posters have done it i don't see why not, anyway Paizo can delete it if they don't allow it.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dawnf lower dervishes gain weapon proficiency with the scimitar. This ability replaces their proficiency with the rapier and whip.
Deity: A Dawnf lower dervish must be a worshiper of Sarenrae. A dervish who abandons or betrays this faith reverts to a standard bard.
Battle Dance: A Dawnf lower dervish is trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except that the Dawnf lower dervish’s performances grant double their normal bonuses, but these bonuses only affect him. He does not need to be able to see or hear his
own performance. Battle dancing is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, and effects that affect bardic performance, except that battle dancing does not benefit from the Lingering Performance feat or any other ability that allows a bardic performance to grant bonuses after it has ended. The benefits of battle dancing apply only when the bard is wearing light or no armor. Like
bardic performance, battle dancing cannot be maintained at the same time as other performance abilities.
Starting a battle dance is a move action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a battle dance from one effect to another requires the Dawnf lower dervish to stop the previous performance and start the new one as a move action. Like a bard, a Dawnf lower dervish’s performance ends immediately if he is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action each round. A Dawnf lower dervish cannot perform more than one battle dance at a time. At 10th level, a Dawnf lower dervish can start a battle dance as a swift action instead of a move action.
When the Dawnf lower dervish uses the inspire courage, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics bardic performance types as battle dances, these performance types only provide benefit to the Dawnf lower dervish himself. All other types of bardic performance work normally (affecting the bard and his allies, or the bard’s enemies, as appropriate). This ability alters the standard bardic performance ability.
Dervish Dance (Ex): A Dawnf lower dervish gains the Dervish Dance feat (Inner Sea World Guide 286) as a bonus feat. This ability replaces bardic knowledge.
Spinning Spellcaster (Ex): At 5th level, a Dawnf lower dervish gains a +4 bonus on concentration checks to cast spells defensively. This ability replaces lore master.
Meditative Whirl (Ex): At 8th level, when using battle dance, the Dawnf lower dervish can enter a trancelike state where his spinning motion represents the movement of the planets around the sun, and his spirit is attuned to the healing aspects of Sarenrae. By spending a move action focusing on his whirling, the dervish can apply the Quicken Spell feat to any cure spell he is about to cast (effectively spending a move action and swift action to cast the spell). This does not alter the level of the spell or the casting time. The dervish can use this ability once per day at 8th level and one additional time per day for every two dervish levels he has beyond 8th. This ability replaces the dirge of doom bardic performance.
Again if i am not allowed to post that please delete this.
Actually, Dervish Dance makes the scimitar count as a light piercing weapon whenever it would be beneficial. That includes qualifying for Finesse.Piranha strike doesn't work with dervish dance (the feat) becuase piranha strike requires you to use a light weapon and the scimitar isn't and the dervish dance feat doesn't make it a light weapon either.
You have to get a STR 13 in order to get power attack.
One handed piercing weapon for class abilities yes, light weapon no.
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One handed piercing weapon for class abilities yes, light weapon no.
OK, that considerably weakens the feat, then. I don't think I can afford a 13 Str with a 15-point buy.
Do you think the double bonuses from Inspire Courage that the Dawnflower Dervish Bard gets are an adequate substitute for Power Attack or Piranha Strike?
The Magus is starting to look better and better... at least there I can boost my damage with weapon enhancements and extra attacks and spell damage from Spellstrike.
One handed piercing weapon for class abilities yes, light weapon no.OK, that considerably weakens the feat, then. I don't think I can afford a 13 Str with a 15-point buy.
Do you think the double bonuses from Inspire Courage that the Dawnflower Dervish Bard gets are an adequate substitute for Power Attack or Piranha Strike?
The Magus is starting to look better and better... at least there I can boost my damage with weapon enhancements and extra attacks and spell damage from Spellstrike.
Without racial modifiers, look at that:
STR 13 (3)
DEX 14 (5)
CON 12 (2)
INT 10 (0)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 14 (5)
Yeah, that would work, except that going down from a final Dex of 18 to 16 is painful in so many ways that I wonder whether it wouldn't be preferable not to have Power Attack...
Without racial modifiers, look at that:STR 13 (3)
DEX 14 (5)
CON 12 (2)
INT 10 (0)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 14 (5)
If you really want final DEX 18 you could do that:
After racial mods:STR 13 (3)
DEX 18 (10) (16+2)
CON 12 (2)
INT 08 (-2)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 12 (2)
Yes CHA 12 hurts your DCs but your ability to cast spells because the 6 level spellcasting can very well be covered with a headband.
Just pick human/half-elf/half-orc as a race.
I really can't comment on whether giving up power attack can work out or not.
The Double Inspire courage bonus from Dervish dance sounds awesome.
However the class gets no pounce type ability and so moving sucks.
Taking that into account the Dervish Dancer.from.UC is still probably better.
He gets more attacks, a better haste dance effect which stacks with inspire courage and a 'pounce' type ability.
Looks like the Dervish Dancer would have a higher dpm.
How many/what type of other melees you got?
If for exmple your buddies were a fighter/Pallytake a Dervish bard.
if monk/rogue go arcane Duelist
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He gets more attacks, a better haste dance effect which stacks with inspire courage
The haste effect is a separate performance type and thus doesn't stack with inspire courage. I just asked about that in a thread a few days ago.
Also, real Haste is vastly preferable anyway, so I don't really care about that feature.
With Ultimate Combat added to the PRD, what do you think of the Whip Mastery Chain for the meelee bard?
Being able to threaten squares with a whip sounds pretty awesome, so do the utility actions. Both come from Improved Whip Mastery.
But considering the meelee bard already carries a second weapon for dealing damage, the "dealing lethal damage and ignore the armor bonus restriction" part doesn't sound too useful.
As a newcomer, I can't evaluate how useful it is not to trigger AoOs with a Whip (you have reach, anyway).
The whole chain also requires Weapon Focus (Whip).
So what do you think - is it worth it for the meelee bard in general and the Dragon Disciple route especially to invest into this chain?
Yes, I was talking about the Bard archetype called Dawnflower Dervish.
I did forget! Thanks for the reminder.
You REALLY need the high Dex. Leo is right that even a Cha of 12 is worth if if that is what you have to do.
Let's see. If it was me it would end up something like this:
STR 12 (2)
DEX 18 (10) (16+2)
CON 14 (5)
INT 8 (-2)
WIS 8 (-2)
CHA 12 (2)
If you can have 18 Dex and a chain shirt, then we are looking at a base AC of 18. That's not bad for first level.
Defensively, you won't be as good as a "full" melee class, but not bad. 11HP at level 1 is not stellar but not squishy either.
Your damage should be OK due to Dervish Dance (and arcane strike and inspire couragex2)
I think the choice is viable for melee. You won't be a tank mind you, but your defense will be decent, and you'll be dealing reasonable damage.
Got to like starting inspire courage as a move action at level 1. Sweet.
The character will not work or "feel" much like a standard Bard. This character won't be buffer/support. If you do play it, come back and let us know how it turned out.
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If you do play it, come back and let us know how it turned out.
I've no idea how it is going to turn out but I think that I'm going to at least dip into Urban Barbarian at level 2. As far as I can see the Rage should stack with the Dance ability. Thematically it also makes sense to me.
And a +4 to Dex just rocks for a Dervish. Bonus to AC, to hit AND damage.
Not at all sure where she is going from there.
Yes, I was talking about the Bard archetype called Dawnflower Dervish.
I did forget! Thanks for the reminder.
You REALLY need the high Dex. Leo is right that even a Cha of 12 is worth if if that is what you have to do.
Let's see. If it was me it would end up something like this:
STR 12 (2)
DEX 18 (10) (16+2)
CON 14 (5)
INT 8 (-2)
WIS 8 (-2)
CHA 12 (2)If you can have 18 Dex and a chain shirt, then we are looking at a base AC of 18. That's not bad for first level.
Defensively, you won't be as good as a "full" melee class, but not bad. 11HP at level 1 is not stellar but not squishy either.
Your damage should be OK due to Dervish Dance (and arcane strike and inspire couragex2)
I think the choice is viable for melee. You won't be a tank mind you, but your defense will be decent, and you'll be dealing reasonable damage.
Got to like starting inspire courage as a move action at level 1. Sweet.
The character will not work or "feel" much like a standard Bard. This character won't be buffer/support. If you do play it, come back and let us know how it turned out.
Using the above ability allocation you can put your first ability increase at STR in order to be able to take power attack at 5th level.
Let's see. If it was me it would end up something like this:
STR 12 (2)
DEX 18 (10) (16+2)
CON 14 (5)
INT 8 (-2)
WIS 8 (-2)
CHA 12 (2)
Looks pretty workable, though with a Cha 12 I won't be impressing anyone with my spellcasting. That's a bit of a pity, since my melee output won't be that impressive either. I guess I'd have to go for buffs rather than Glitterdust, Confusion et al.
The character will not work or "feel" much like a standard Bard. This character won't be buffer/support. If you do play it, come back and let us know how it turned out.
Sure! I'm currently leaning more towards a Vivisectionist or Magus, but I'll keep that Bard in mind.
The guide to bards hasn't been updated with the changes in Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic? Anyone know if there'll be an update?
Sorry, didn't read all 381 posts.
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The guide to bards hasn't been updated with the changes in Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic? Anyone know if there'll be an update?
Sorry, didn't read all 381 posts.
Harmor just a few posts above is the awnser to your question.
Treantmonk, Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 03:50 AM
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Dr-Lucky-expression-2 avatarAsmodeusUltima wrote:
is do you plan to/will you pretty please update/expand your guide to include options from APG/UM/UC?
MAYBE eventually the APG (I like the APG, but have lacked the motivation to update the guides).
UC/UM probably not (was less fond of both sourcebooks, and only bought UM in PDF, UC I haven't bought at all, just looked at a friend's copy).
We'll see though, I want to hold of commitments either way. Messageboards are a low priority in my life, just a source of occasional fun. If it stops being fun, and starts feeling too much like work, then I stop.
I'll look at your specific requests after work (I'll try to remember), but I have to go now.
My bad...I should had at least read this last page.
Any chance of getting some bard itemization discussion going to add to this guide? I've got a sort of melee/generalist bard (16str and cha, 14 dex and con) going in COT at 3rd level currently and I'm sitting on my first item nest egg. Not sure if I should go circlet of persuasion, headband for +2 cha (I'll eventually stack both items into one by paying the +50% cost) or save my money for later?
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Thanks for the great guide, Treantmonk. Unfortunately, the resulting thread is so long that I don't want to spend the time reading the whole thing, so I hope you'll all forgive me for asking a question that was probably answered 5 pages ago.
Did we ever get a definite answer on how versatile performance works, since that was a debate on the first two pages of this thread?
Thanks in advance!
Thanks for the great guide, Treantmonk. Unfortunately, the resulting thread is so long that I don't want to spend the time reading the whole thing, so I hope you'll all forgive me for asking a question that was probably answered 5 pages ago.
Did we ever get a definite answer on how versatile performance works, since that was a debate on the first two pages of this thread?
Thanks in advance!
If you have a bonus of 10 to Perform (Oratory), then you could use +10 as the modifier to a roll for diplomacy.
You just replace the value of the associated skill with the value of the perform skill.
You don't need to use your performance as a part of it, so you don't need to whip out your organ to get a bonus to whatever they give bonuses to.
If you have a bonus of 10 to Perform (Oratory), then you could use +10 as the modifier to a roll for diplomacy.
You just replace the value of the associated skill with the value of the perform skill.
You don't need to use your performance as a part of it, so you don't need to whip out your organ to get a bonus to whatever they give bonuses to.
Hey hey hey hey HEY... HEY.
Hey.
I'm not sure what type of bonus that action would give, but it won't be good.
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Thanks for the great guide, Treantmonk. Unfortunately, the resulting thread is so long that I don't want to spend the time reading the whole thing, so I hope you'll all forgive me for asking a question that was probably answered 5 pages ago.
Did we ever get a definite answer on how versatile performance works, since that was a debate on the first two pages of this thread?
Thanks in advance!
If you have a bonus of 10 to Perform (Oratory), then you could use +10 as the modifier to a roll for diplomacy.
You just replace the value of the associated skill with the value of the perform skill.
You don't need to use your performance as a part of it, so you don't need to whip out your organ to get a bonus to whatever they give bonuses to.
Thanks for the quick answer!
So it's based on the charisma modifier to the perform skill, even if the skill it's replacing would normally use a different attribute? ie Oratory replacing Sense Motive would use the cha bonus instead of wis bonus?
Also, what about feats that affect skills? Can I assume that the Persuasive feat, which gives bonuses to Diplomacy and Intimidate, would be useless to a bard who has uses versatile performance for those things? Or does that feat apply any time you use those skills, even if you're using a different skill's bonus to roll for them?
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Mostly what Kazejin said, with some nuance.
Thanks to Versatile Performance, you are using the bonus of a Perform skill roll in place of the bonus of, for example, a Bluff skill roll. However, it is still a Bluff check that you are making (you are not dancing or singing but still fast-talking your target).
Thus anything that would modify the bonus of the Perform roll AND that applies to the circumstances of the Bluff check will apply.
For example, Skill Focus : Perform applies, but not a +2 circumstancial bonus from a MW musical instrument (as you are not really making a Performance check, but a Bluff check).
Conversely, anything that would modify the difficulty of the Bluff check also applies. For example, if you have the Scroll Scoundrel 2nd-level ability to reduce by 5 the penalty on a Bluff check when telling outrageous lies, it does apply because it is still a Bluff check you are making, even if you are using your Perform bonus instead of your Bluff bonus.
The Childlike feat's benefit on Bluff checks (ie, take 10 on lies that make you appear innocent) would also apply since it concerns the die roll and not the bonus you add to it.
Hope that helps.
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Thanks for the clarification, Kazejin and Black Raven.
I'm an old school D&D/AD&Der from the 80's returning after 20+ years away, so I'm new to Pathfinder and never played 3.5. I chose to make a bard for role playing reasons, with no regard to how useful my character would be, after making sure the other major roles in my group were already covered. They just sound like a fun RP class that would suit my personality well. But it's a class that didn't really exist back when I used to play. No, I don't count the nonsense version in the AD&D 1st edition Players Handbook that nobody ever used. So I'm still learning about their role in the game, and this guide is very helpful for that. Thanks, TreantMonk!
I just about finished making my first bard character last night to play this weekend, but I still have one or two questions.
We rolled stats with 4d6, and the DM was pretty generous in letting us move points around, so I ended up with better ability scores than a 20 point build would have given. Per the recommendations of the more experienced players in my group, I put my primary focus on charisma and dex, followed by int. They seemed most concerned with my character being good at the charisma and knowledge skills, and figured high dex with a ranged weapon would be good enough for me in combat.
Since I'm primarily an archer in combat, I "dumped" strength. As I said, though, my points weren't that terrible, so it's still a 9 after the halfling racial penalty. But I figure with a crossbow that doesn't care about strength as my primary weapon, I should be ok. And because I'm a halfling, my armor, weapons, bags, and clothes weigh less than medium sized versions, so my equipment came in just under my encumbrance limit to avoid penalties. I'm not sure if the DM will even pay attention to encumbrance, but I figured better safe than sorry. And I really wasn't going out of my way to eliminate heavy items - it just worked out well once I figured out what I wanted to buy and did the math.
Now on to my questions.
First, just how important is bardic performance, especially inspire courage? At first glance, this seems like the bard's defining ability, since it's the one major thing that nobody else has. But TreantMonk's guide says that it shouldn't be used much below 7th level, just because you have to give up a standard action to begin your bardic performance.
I'm still debating whether it'll be worth taking extra performance or lingering performance as my first feat, or if I'm better off going for the archery feat track recommended by TreantMonk starting at level 1. Given that it's a 6 PC group, inspire courage could go a long way, just because I'll be boosting the attack and damage rolls on more people than if we were a smaller group. On the other hand, I have 18 cha, so I can already use it 8 rounds per day at level 1, and that feat will essentially become useless at higher levels, when I have more performance rounds available than I need. What do you all think?
And related to feats, what do you think of Lucky Halfling? I like the idea of having an additional unusual way to help the group, so I suspect I'll pick this up eventually, but definitely not at first level. I can see taking this at level 7 or 9 or something, after I've got enough archery feats and/or useful spells to make myself more useful in battle.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Inspire courage was basically my first round action every combat from level 1 to 15. If you have a martial heavy group, disregard his advice.
Lingering Performance can technically multiply your rounds of performance by 3. I'd say go with that.
If you're going archery, you don't need high Charisma. You need Good dex, alright Cha, and decent strength. I'd consider putting that 18 into archery. If you plan on casting a ton of offensive spells that require saves, then keep it in Cha! But I think Dex would be of better use.
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Inspire courage was basically my first round action every combat from level 1 to 15. If you have a martial heavy group, disregard his advice.
Lingering Performance can technically multiply your rounds of performance by 3. I'd say go with that.
If you're going archery, you don't need high Charisma. You need Good dex, alright Cha, and decent strength. I'd consider putting that 18 into archery. If you plan on casting a ton of offensive spells that require saves, then keep it in Cha! But I think Dex would be of better use.
I thought only thrown weapons and slings used strength. The core rulebook says that strength penalties would apply to damage from bows, but not bonuses, which is why I went light crossbow instead of short bow. Why would an archer need high strength?
They need decent strength. And it's due to Composite Shortbows.
With a strength mod of +2, and a composite (+2) shortbow, you'll be doing +2 damage every shot.
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They need decent strength. And it's due to Composite Shortbows.
With a strength mod of +2, and a composite (+2) shortbow, you'll be doing +2 damage every shot.
I did not know that. I had looked in the combat chapter of the Core Rulebook to find out what weapons gave bonuses to attacks and damage for what attributes, and it mentions strength penalties for bows, but specifically says that they don't give strength bonuses. I hadn't read through the detailed descriptions of all the weapons in the equipment chapter, so I completely missed this about composite bows. Now I know what weapon I need to get for my barbarian, once I can afford it (500 gp for a +4 composite longbow!!!)
Anyway, my bard will be in a group with two fighters and a sniper rogue, who will all benefit from inspire courage. There's also a wizard, and I only just noticed that only weapon damage gets the damage bonus from inspire courage, so he probably won't benefit from it. And we've got an oracle, and I have no idea what type of fighting they do. Like I said, I'm new around here.
A wizard's scorching ray, and other ray spells, will benefit from inspire courage.
Upon further thought, I now believe that even as a standard action, if you have three or more martial types, including yourself, inspire courage is always a good starting move. It is effectively a constant effect Timely Inspiration, which is an amazing spell.
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Upon further thought, I now believe that even as a standard action, if you have three or more martial types, including yourself, inspire courage is always a good starting move. It is effectively a constant effect Timely Inspiration, which is an amazing spell.
Oh, sure. Now you tell me. :p I actually went with Point Blank Shot as my feat instead of Lingering Performance, since I figured I'll want to add some of the other archery feats as early as possible, and that's a prerequisite for most of them.
Also, now that I've learned more about the game and looked at it more, I realize just how non-optimized my character really is. It makes sense, since I made the character using the advice of members of our group who I'm realizing aren't optimizers now that I know them better and understand the game more. My character is more optimized for non-combat (emphasis on charisma and knowledge skills) than combat.
Now I'm thinking of making a second bard character, just to try out optimizing a little better, even though I won't have a group to play the new character in right away. If nothing else, I can make it as a backup Pathfinder Society character, in case I get bored with my barbarian or we decide to play a low level adventure after my barbarian is too high a level for that.
Anyway, our first session playing this weekend in the homebrew campaign with my halfling bard was a disaster, but not because of my bard. Although if my bard was better with a sword, it may have helped.
Two of our six players failed to show up, so the rest of us tried to play without them. Unfortunately, the two who weren't there were the two fighters, which left us with two archers and two spellcasters. In other words, my -1 hit penalty and 1d6 -1 damage from my halfling-sized longsword and 9 strength represented our group's greatest melee capability. I ended up in the front of the marching order, because I had the highest AC, and our DM decided that I'm short enough for the human sniper rogue to fire over me without a penalty.
And from a non-combat perspective, I was the only one there who wasn't playing an intentionally quiet character. I can live with one, or maybe even two, "strong, silent type" or "shy, silent type" characters in a group, but there really needs to be more than one person in every group who are NOT quiet.