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With Ultimate Combat added to the PRD, what do you think of the Whip Mastery Chain for the meelee bard?

Being able to threaten squares with a whip sounds pretty awesome, so do the utility actions. Both come from Improved Whip Mastery.

But considering the meelee bard already carries a second weapon for dealing damage, the "dealing lethal damage and ignore the armor bonus restriction" part doesn't sound too useful.
As a newcomer, I can't evaluate how useful it is not to trigger AoOs with a Whip (you have reach, anyway).

The whole chain also requires Weapon Focus (Whip).

So what do you think - is it worth it for the meelee bard in general and the Dragon Disciple route especially to invest into this chain?

The feat Horse Master (which requires Expert Trainer, AKA 4 levels of Cav) sets the mount's level to be based on character level, not class level.

Thank you =)

while the cavalier's mount increases by character level instead of cavalier level.

Really?

I can see the PRD being interpreted both ways. Is there an official statement regarding this? It's of interest to me because I want to play a multiclassing Cavalier as well.

This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the cavalier's level as his effective druid level.

Zejety wrote:

If a Cavalier spends a standard action to grant a teamwork feat to his allies, does that affect his mount, too?

Does that mean that the Cavalier will always have a teamwork ally adjacent to him while mounted? After using Tactician, of course.

yep

Thanks!

If a Cavalier spends a standard action to grant a teamwork feat to his allies, does that affect his mount, too?
Does that mean that the Cavalier will always have a teamwork ally adjacent to him while mounted? After using Tactician, of course.

Thank you.

1) If I have Improved Trip I perform a Trip maneuver with a whip, does the whip provoke attacks of oppertunity? Remember, attacking with a whip normaly provokes AOOs.

2) If I have Greater Trip and successfully trip someone, does he provoke an attack of oppertunity from me?

Well, what type of bard do you have in mind? I guess I am confused about that since you mentioned not taking the combat expertise route, then asked about lowering stats FOR a CE build.

Also remember that this guide was written before APG and UM. Have you looked through the archetypes?

First things first, I forgot to thank you in my last post, so consider me grateful =)

At first, I was refering to Treantmonk's "Melee Bard", which is introduced as a skirmisher that supports other melee party members.
However, Treantmonk also hints towards the possibility of ignoring tripping for the sake of not needing 13 int.
I was interested in how that kind of a melee bard plays like.

I'm sorry if my newer post was confusing. That one did refer to the original build (with 13 int) again.

Our group only has/uses the basic rules.

Zejety: I make no claims that this is optimized, but for your first character, worry about fun, not extreme optimization!

Don't worry about me. I'm mostly interested in this optimization stuff to get a feel for what's effective and what isn't. And most importantly to confirm my understanding of the rules.

If you're going into melee, don't dump Dex or Con. Dump wis or Int.

I'm not actually talking abou dumping Con or Dex. It's just that Treantmonk's meelee build costs 16 ability points on generation and either one of those has to be decreased by 1 point.

Also, why do shields become viably only when discarding Combat Expertice? Isn't a whip one handed? Why not use a one handed weapon and a shield when tripping is not an option?

Also, your melee build uses 16 points (in the googledoc).
What would you recommend lowering? DEX or CON?

Hi,
I'm 100% new to D&D/Pathfinder (though not to pen & papers in general) and want to roll a bard.

At first I was intruiged by the trip bards (meelee and control) but I'm currently considering a half-orc without the Combat Expertise Chain that may or may not take levels in Dragon Disciple.

However - being the newbie that I am - I find it hard to imagine what a meelee bard who does skip tripping actually contributes with his meelee attacks? Is the sole purpose of the build to deal damage while you are not casting? Or am I not aware of support options beyond tripping/disarming (you briefly hint towards sundering).