Treantmonk's Guide to Bards (Optimization)

[vonklinen]

What does a caster bard build look like?

[Cheapy]

Madness.

[Cheapy]

...or at least it was when I made one. I'd have to review all the options now, but before the APG, I don't think it was possible to make one that was any good. After the 2nd round of combat, you were stuck in "Well what do I do now?" mode. You also had the issue of staggered spellcasting (hurts quite a bit) and spells at earlier spell levels at higher class levels. Which means there was a gap between your DCs and their saves.

I do think it's possible now, what with all the options out. But I just haven't looked into that as closely after my experiences.

[vonklinen]

Thank you. Where do you think the bard's strength lies?

[Joyd]

One note (haha) on lingering performance at earlier levels, when stuttering performances to get the most rounds possible out of them costs more valuable actions: it's often the case that in many combats, the later rounds are "cleanup" to some extent. After the first three rounds, it's not uncommon for many of the enemies to be dead, controlled, or awful close. It's not the end of the world if the fourth and sliver-of-a-fifth round of a combat don't have inspire courage behind the team. Often times the bard can do more good in round four by using his standard action to smack something than to restart the performance for what's only going to be a fairly simple round or two.

[Merkatz]

The bard's strength is that no matter what the situation may be, he can effectively contribute. Bards are amazing buffers and skillmonkesy right out of the gate, and they can be secondary fighters, healers, and utility casters all at the same time.

[vonklinen]

also, if it isn't obvious I am a noob here. How do you start a post (topic) on messageboards?

[magikot]

click the Add New Thread button at the top of the forum.

[vonklinen]

magikot wrote:

click the Add New Thread button at the top of the forum.

Thank you!

[Dax Thura]

.

[Lokiron]

I realize this guide is old, and I have no idea how much it will be revisited, but I have a disagreement with the rating (more the explanation for said rating) of Major Image.

Guide wrote:

Major Image: ** Now you are creating significantly more convincing illusions, including smell, taste, etc. You are starting to see enough options to reduce the redundancy with silent image - now it's a matter of personal taste and the style of your character. Illusions can be really good, or really useless depending on how creative you can be with them. NOTE: Thanks to Crosswind I've lowered the rating of this spell. Crosswind pointed out that soon as you add smell, sound etc. to an image (the whole point of using this instead of silent image), then, interaction becomes pretty much automatic, allowing everyone a saving throw. This actually means that adding smell, sound, etc. brings a major opportunity for those who witness the illusion to make a saving throw...not good.

This says that you get a save for hearing a sound based illusion, smelling a scent based, and so on..

The why don't you get a save for simply seeing a vision based illusion? I don't think the Major Image so easily grants saves..

[BeauJest]

I have a Bard-8/Paladin-2 archer build that just hit 11th level. I'm probably going to take another Bard level, but have plans to eventually get 4 paladin levels. I'm undecided on what feat to take next.

I've been pretty dedicated with my archery feats:

Point-Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Arcane Strike
Deadly Aim
Manyshot

Currently, my PCs weakest link is her HPs- 63. AC is ok at 26 Equipment- +1 longbow, +2 greatsword, +1 mithral breastplate, +1 buckler

Here are my leading candidates:

Toughness
Craft Magic Arms & Armor
Power Attack
Vital Strike

I'm currently low on funds, so the crafting feat has some appeal to boost up my armor and longbow. If I had enough gold to upgrade to a +2 Con/Dex belt, Toughness would not be on the table. Power attack would really bolster her effectiveness in melee. Vital Strike has great versatility for the bow or sword.

Thoughts?

[Fromper]

If you're dedicated to archery, you need to take Clustered Shot from Ultimate Combat:

Quote:

Clustered Shots (Combat)

You take a moment to carefully aim your shots, causing them all to strike nearly the same spot.

Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use a full-attack action to make multiple ranged weapon attacks against the same opponent, total the damage from all hits before applying that opponent's damage reduction.

This is how archers overcome DR without having to carry arrows made from a dozen different materials and try to figure out which you need against a particular enemy.

[BeauJest]

Fromper wrote:

If you're dedicated to archery, you need to take Clustered Shot from Ultimate Combat:

Quote:

Clustered Shots (Combat)

You take a moment to carefully aim your shots, causing them all to strike nearly the same spot.

Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use a full-attack action to make multiple ranged weapon attacks against the same opponent, total the damage from all hits before applying that opponent's damage reduction.

This is how archers overcome DR without having to carry arrows made from a dozen different materials and try to figure out which you need against a particular enemy.

Sounds nice, but we only have Core and APG available. Being a paladin helps with the DR, at least vs. evil creatures.

[bartgroks]

Clustered shot is overrated. Special material arrows are relatively cheap and every archer wants a efficient quiver. It does help with creatures who have DR/- but it is not one of the better archery feats.l

[Scarletrose]

I always hear bards are jack of all trades, good at everything but masters of none.
I think they are wrong.
Being jack of all trades means being master with sinergies that usually requires the involvement of several characters.
for once I still think bard is the supreme party buffer.

Being able to start a bardic song as a free action, quiken a secon buff and cast a third usually means the party wins from the start.
And with UMD as a class skill, there is really no limit to the kind of buff he is using.
add to that the fact that the bard is not a fighter but can contribute to the fight by himself and can cast in armor so is not easily disabled like a full fledged caster I say he is master in transforming a regular party into a full fledged killing machine.

add the fact that he is also the best skill monkey of them all and I say he is the master of more than one thing.

[Shasta Lux]

magikot wrote:

Human
20 point buy - Str 9, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 7, Cha 14
Traits: Heirloom Weapon (Whip, +2 to trips), Reactionary
...

I was considering taking the Heirloom weapon whip, but then I read the fine print and the weapon must be simple or martial. No exotic weapons, which the whip is. 'twould be nice.

[Captain Netz]

Shasta Lux wrote:

magikot wrote:

Human
20 point buy - Str 9, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 7, Cha 14
Traits: Heirloom Weapon (Whip, +2 to trips), Reactionary
...

I was considering taking the Heirloom weapon whip, but then I read the fine print and the weapon must be simple or martial. No exotic weapons, which the whip is. 'twould be nice.

Back in time when that post was written there wasn't any fine print.

[Clectabled]

Shasta Lux wrote:

magikot wrote:

Human
20 point buy - Str 9, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 7, Cha 14
Traits: Heirloom Weapon (Whip, +2 to trips), Reactionary
...

I was considering taking the Heirloom weapon whip, but then I read the fine print and the weapon must be simple or martial. No exotic weapons, which the whip is. 'twould be nice.

I know this is kinda old, but the 'small print' is actually flavor text so I don't believe a requirement of the trait.

Check with your GM and mileage may vary.

[Meager Rolmug]

I know this is an old thread, but having experience playing PF bards wanted to comment for those still reading it. I think the suggested builds are poor(at best), and severely weighted to lower class play. I believe a optimized bard retains his versatility and DOES try to make his spellcasting good, not his melee or ranged attacks. Again and again the argument is used that the bard needs to be able to do something other than cast spells and perform....even as it is suggested that certain spells shouldn't be taken because a scroll or wand can substitute for a spell known. Well if a PC has a bunch of scrolls and wands he doesn't have to melee or shoot a bow when he runs out of spells, now does he? It is suggested in each case that nearly all the bards feats should be spent on combat.....really? What about an item creation feat, so your PC has something really useful to do during down time? What about spell penetration, combat casting, toughness? In my experience it is easier to make a bard a good caster than a good fighter/archer. It takes less feats and most importantly only one ability needs to be high(charisma), which needs to be high anyway. This allows a bard to have a better charisma and intelligence...the physical abilities just don't matter much. I'd take more spells, with higher DC's and greatly improved skills over being average skilled halfarse fighter anyday. That being said there is alot of good advice in the guide....just not build options.