Well, your guide got me all inspired to build up a bard.
I'm not sure what type (probably archer) but I did want him to be good with UMD. I noticed that you use wisdom as a dump stat, and I thought I should point out that if you want to use UMD divine items, you need to mimic the ability score as well (UMD -15 =ability score). While this eventually becomes easy, it starts out very difficult. Bumping wisdom to an 11 or 12 allows 1st and 2nd level items. By the time you need to UMD 3rd or higher level items, you will probably be able to make the check.
Granted, if you have a druid and a cleric in the party, this isn't useful, but it could come in handy in some parties or campaigns.
Again, thanks for the great guides!
This is great I just found this I love hand books im going to go through and try to read most of the comments just wanted to say Thanks
And I love the idea of a Whip using bard
i was just arguing with another player in my group after i read through this guide.
If your invisible, and start to play music. Do you roll an opposed stealth check vs their perception for them to spot what square you are in, and if so do you get the +40 for standing still.
The other player keeps saying you auto fail cause you can't use stealth while they observe you using any sense other than sight. so you can't even roll to oppose them.
under invisibility it just states the invisible creature gets -20 for talking or being in combat, and +40 if i'm standing still, and +1 for every 10 feet between me and the observer. Now does that mean its their perception vs 20 +1/10 feet for me just playing an instrument cause i never left my square?
I would actually stand against Major Image allowing saves based on having sound or heat, mostly because if you experience said effects of the illusion you are not acting upon it by necessity. The definition of interact is "To act on each other" when not used with an object. Thus, yelling at an illusion something you might expect them to respond to would be interacting, experiencing the heat off an illusory pit fiend would not.
A very excellent guide that got me thinking about the bard in ways I hadn't for a long time! Keep up the good works!
Cheers to Treantmonk and all the contributors in this thread. I read through it and made my bard for a Drow campaign starting at level 2. Had a good first session as I think just about all of my abilities were used and were effective. I must admit that my Bard experience is limited, but I did find that it is a class with abilities that I had to work to use. I had to put forward my case for why the group should go with the "bard" way, which was less about direct confrontation. Silent Image was awesome, which I took because I couldn't take sleep being a drow campaign. My other two first level spells was Cure Light Wounds (didn't use) and Hideous Laughter (1 use and effective). The biggest challenge I had was when to cast and when to inspire, with most of the time I chose to cast. I think since I'm looking at PrCs I'll take the Harmonic Spell feat.
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Thanks to Treantmonk for this great guide! I'm thinking of making a controller bard and I'm following your tips pretty closely. One thing I noticed, though, that the Weapon Focus/Exotic Weapon Proficiency and the Dazzling Display feat tree all require +1 BAB, which a bard does not have at level 1 (I'm specifically referring to the part in your guide where you state: "these feats don't need to be taken in any particular order, though I recommend exotic weapon proficiency at level 1"). Not sure if this was just overlooked or am I missing something?
I loved to see this thread after the APG which apparently is giving the bard some love
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i was just arguing with another player in my group after i read through this guide.
If your invisible, and start to play music. Do you roll an opposed stealth check vs their perception for them to spot what square you are in, and if so do you get the +40 for standing still.
The other player keeps saying you auto fail cause you can't use stealth while they observe you using any sense other than sight. so you can't even roll to oppose them.
I'd agree with the other player. The +40 for standing still is a remnant of the old 3.5 system with separate spot and listen checks. If you aren't attempting to be stealthy by being quiet, I wouldn't give you the invisibility bonus.
i was just arguing with another player in my group after i read through this guide.
If your invisible, and start to play music. Do you roll an opposed stealth check vs their perception for them to spot what square you are in, and if so do you get the +40 for standing still.
The other player keeps saying you auto fail cause you can't use stealth while they observe you using any sense other than sight. so you can't even roll to oppose them.
under invisibility it just states the invisible creature gets -20 for talking or being in combat, and +40 if i'm standing still, and +1 for every 10 feet between me and the observer. Now does that mean its their perception vs 20 +1/10 feet for me just playing an instrument cause i never left my square?
If you're invisible and start to play music, they can make a perception check to hear your music instead of having to make a perception check to hear you taking careful, slow steps, ducking low and moving quietly.
Right from the book:
"If people are observing you using any of their senses
(but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth."
Description of stealth:
"This skill covers hiding and moving silently."
No, you cannot play music while making a stealth check-- you could, but they'd have to fail their perception check of -10 to -5, with a +1 to the DC of -5 or -10 per every 10 feet they were from you.
If you could play music while being stealthed, it opens up the gateway for cases like an invisible rogue shouting "I AM INVISIBLE EVERYONE WATCH OUT AROUND YOU I AM INVISIBLE" at the top of his lungs, all while making a stealth check-- and nobody noticing.
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My quick suggestion for players who have 3.5 options is I can't help think what excellent synergy there would be between the new Bardic Knowledge mechanics and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion)...
Did just that. And a gnome with Trivial Knowledge from Races of Stone. The Little Bard That Could.
Again, love the guides!
I'm starting a new campaign and building a bard. My DM has suggested i aim for the Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class.
What are your thoughts on this?
The abilities range from "stone cold terrible" (Lay of the Exalted Dead -- a 15th level character can summon some 5th level barbarians once per week?!) to "decent, but not worth wading through a bunch of junk" (Inspire Action).
Also if I were to go ahead with the idea, what build would you do with it.
Cheers.
I honestly don't know. Maybe if you were a non-spellcaster (like a fighter or a barbarian), you might take a couple of levels for Live to Tell the Tale? But even that's doubtful.
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I'm starting a new campaign and building a bard. My DM has suggested i aim for the Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class.
What are your thoughts on this?
Also if I were to go ahead with the idea, what build would you do with it.
Cheers.
The Chronicler is a poorly designed PrC that takes all the abilities of the Bard and either dumps or stunts them without giving much of anything back.
I would try to talk someone out of taking the PrC altogether before delving into build advice.
Instead consider straight Bard...very workable.
Love the Guide, thank you.
I have been considering making a 2nd Lvl. Barbarian / Level the rest in Bard.
The Mele Bard portion of this guide just makes me want to try it more.
What are others thoughts on the viability of this build?
I like the 12HD twice for HP before starting Bard, also the BAB can't hurt either.
My concept is to take Singing and Wind(battle horn)and play him with a Falchon or Great axe.
Plays the horn (charge...of course) before battle then starts his singing for Insp. Cour. whilst making the Bad Guys mince meat.
Love the Guide, thank you.
I have been considering making a 2nd Lvl. Barbarian / Level the rest in Bard.
The Mele Bard portion of this guide just makes me want to try it more.
What are others thoughts on the viability of this build?
I like the 12HD twice for HP before starting Bard, also the BAB can't hurt either.
My concept is to take Singing and Wind(battle horn)and play him with a Falchon or Great axe.
Plays the horn (charge...of course) before battle then starts his singing for Insp. Cour. whilst making the Bad Guys mince meat.
It's worth noting that unless you take 4 levels in a full BAB class, you won't see a difference in your BAB by level 20. It'll start off stronger but end in the same place (BAB 15).
It's worth noting that unless you take 4 levels in a full BAB class, you won't see a difference in your BAB by level 20. It'll start off stronger but end in the same place (BAB 15).Love the Guide, thank you.
I have been considering making a 2nd Lvl. Barbarian / Level the rest in Bard.
The Mele Bard portion of this guide just makes me want to try it more.
What are others thoughts on the viability of this build?
I like the 12HD twice for HP before starting Bard, also the BAB can't hurt either.
My concept is to take Singing and Wind(battle horn)and play him with a Falchon or Great axe.
Plays the horn (charge...of course) before battle then starts his singing for Insp. Cour. whilst making the Bad Guys mince meat.
To be honest that's exactly what I was looking for...don't want to lose too much of the Bardly goodness...just want a touch of smash face in there to liven things up...besides...it falls in line with the whole character concept of a bard singing tribal chants while fighting (picture a famous barbarian singing tribal war chants while fighting next to an un-named Drow ranger).
Teneck, if your DM allows 3.5 material that Snowflake Wardance feat from Frostburn (I think) is better than going Barbarian. Its effectively Bardic rage and you can play it in that spirit. Other options to boost your melee prowess is the Knowledge Devotion feat from Complete Champion. There is a feat which converst your inspire courage into D6's of energy damage based on a draconic heritage feat. I'm sure its mentioned somewhere in this thread and the source. Other than that the guide has all the tips and tricks for a melee bard.
Teneck, if your DM allows 3.5 material that Snowflake Wardance feat from Frostburn (I think) is better than going Barbarian. Its effectively Bardic rage and you can play it in that spirit. Other options to boost your melee prowess is the Knowledge Devotion feat from Complete Champion. There is a feat which converst your inspire courage into D6's of energy damage based on a draconic heritage feat. I'm sure its mentioned somewhere in this thread and the source. Other than that the guide has all the tips and tricks for a melee bard.
Well considering that all the source material that our group uses is mine (I usually DM)then the use of 3.5 material is almost a necessity due to I only have the Beasteary and the Core book. But I dont have the book you are talking about. I wanted to try and make this a pure PF character as this is the system we are moving to ( THANK YOU PAIZO !!!!!!)
Can't wait for the next 2 books (Advanced PG and DMG) should beef up our options considerably.I went with a 3rd lvl Character to start him out for when I can talk someone else into DMing, 2lvls Barb, and 1 lvl Bard...his BAB is nice for a lvl 3 and the skill tree looks sick with both the Barb and Bard skills. I think there is only 4 skills that i DON'T get the class bonus on.
I took Treantmonk's advice and went with Arcane Strike as the lvl 3 feat and it should work out nicely. Made him a Half Orc for the Dark vision and Intimidate bonus(bonus of 12 at lvl 3 for intimidate...sick). Should be a blast to roleplay as well...got his whole backstory worked up already...now I just need a chance to play him...sigh...maybe he will be an NPC next weekend <insert evil grin here>.
To be fair, Arcane Strike is (in my opinion) better in Pathfinder then it was in 3.5.
Also, for bards, I believe APG is supposed to have more combat based spells for bards to make them closer to fighter/mages.
To be fair, Arcane Strike is (in my opinion) better in Pathfinder then it was in 3.5.
Also, for bards, I believe APG is supposed to have more combat based spells for bards to make them closer to fighter/mages.
EXCELLENT news.
Now is on my list of "HAVE TO HAVE" for sure.
Instead consider straight Bard...very workable.
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Dear Mr. TreeMinky,
When can we expect some APG updated to your guides? And will you be giving the Witch a guide of her own?
I love your class guides treantmonk, and you can see a piece of your guide in every character I make.
That being said the controller bard seems to be a lost cause in it's current state. I cannot see a way to make nets worthwhile.
First and most importantly you cannot take exotic weapons, or weapon focus at first level, which is the killer.
One possible solution to the problem of not being able to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at 1st level: the "Heirloom Weapon" trait found in the Adventurer's Armory. This would grant your bard proficiency (and a +1 trait bonus to hit) with one specific net, and also treat that net as masterwork quality (hey -- another free +1 bonus to hit)!
The downside to this solution is that you will only be able to use that one net without being hit with the -4 nonproficiency penalty. And, of course, nets are oh so very fragile. The Mending cantrip is an absolute must if you go this route.
Haha I appreciate your courageous attempt to save the net, but its really risky to put that trait on one net, which you could lose really easy, but it would work. Thing is you could just buy a few tanglefoot bags too unless I'm mistaken.
If it's a magical net it can't be sundered/broken unless it is attacked by a magical weapon with the same or higher enchancement bonus.
If it's a magical net it can't be sundered/broken unless it is attacked by a magical weapon with the same or higher enchancement bonus.
But it won't be magical for the first few levels. And your GM will have been extremely lenient if quite a few of your opponents haven't tried to cut or tear up a rope net that's been thrown on them.
If it's a magical net it can't be sundered/broken unless it is attacked by a magical weapon with the same or higher enchancement bonus.But it won't be magical for the first few levels. And your GM will have been extremely lenient if quite a few of your opponents haven't tried to cut or tear up a rope net that's been thrown on them.
For the first few levels yes. But even so busting out of the net, or escaping from it isn't going to be easy (DC 25 and 20 respectively is rather difficult for lower level challenges). The HP leaves something to be desired I agree, but they do have to hit it, and with the penalties it gives I would generally use one for a while.
Tanglefoot bags would be the better choice in general, but are more expensive, less likely to work (need to hit and reflex save) and are single use items.
At later levels having the Harden spell cast on the Net would be a great idea.
Instead consider straight Bard...very workable..
Dear Mr. TreeMinky,
When can we expect some APG updated to your guides? And will you be giving the Witch a guide of her own?
+1!
+1!
Instead consider straight Bard...very workable..
Dear Mr. TreeMinky,
When can we expect some APG updated to your guides? And will you be giving the Witch a guide of her own?
+2
Haha I appreciate your courageous attempt to save the net, but its really risky to put that trait on one net, which you could lose really easy, but it would work.
Yes it is risky, but as Admiral Kirk once said, "Fortune favors the foolish." Another concern with my solution is that you can't use more than one net. Regardless, I loved the idea of this bard so much and, being a bit of a risk-taker myself, I'm going to try this build out this weekend.
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At Last there is a cool fix for the net problem that goes perfect with treantmonk's control bard.
Check out the half-orc's alternet racial ability** spoiler omitted **
Half orcs are already a strong race suggestion for their intimidate bonus. Now they also get nets for FREE.
So now a half-orc controller bard can take Combat expertise first level, Weapon focus whip at level three, and dazzling display at level five. Improved trip can wait since your net will give you a big advantage to trip anyway.
I'm personally happy just using improved feint as a move action. It's been working great, but the half-orc will get a higher intimidate roll, and he can switch to better two-handed weapon when the need arises, although the scorpion whip does fix a lot of problems here, and keeps my guy out of harms way. I'll be screwed the first time I face something with step up.
Sadly, treat as a martial weapon is not "free", bards don't have proficiency with all martial weapons. No, agile maneuvers may be the best controller bard ad in a little while, but net still needs strength (otherwise half-elf could get it for you),
The "Ancestral Arms" alternate racial ability for half-elves would allow you to swap the free Skill Focus feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency at first level.
I went with a half-elf for my controller bard, so that I could have the net right away. It's effective when I can use it, but so far I have only used it against opponents with blunt weapons because the GM is just itching to destroy my net.
I won't have Improved Feint until 3rd level and that will hurt; not so much at first level since I'll be using Versatile performance for Bluff checks (and therefore am not making feint attacks anyway). I went with 14 STR and 12 DEX, probably would have been better off trading a little CHA for STR. Having a masterwork whip helps a little.
One more thing -- my bard is a Court Bard because I thought that the debuffing nature of most of that archetype's bardic performances would work well with his debuffing attacks. It's led to considerable changes into how to play the character: I have to be in the middle of my enemies so as to affect as many of them as possible with bardic performances, and I can't affect anything that does not speak a language (at least, not until I start satirizing my enemies through mime and interpretive dance).
To help get into the thick of things in the quickest (and most stylish) way possible, I took the Prehensile Whip trait -- also not a bad way of making quick escapes. It's loads of fun to swing around on ceiling beams, and also saved me from going through a rotten stretch of floor. Having to spend a full-round action detatching the whip is a pain, though. The solution I have in mind is to make use of the Solid Note spell in the APG -- at the moment it won't hold my weight (not to mention the weight of my gear) but it should by level 5 or 6. I'm going to try to convince the GM that since it is a concentration-based spell, it should also be dismissible at will. Then rather than spend a round detaching the whip, instead I dismiss the Note as a free action! Regardless of whether he allows that, being able to put an anchor for my whip anywhere that I want it will be all kinds of awesome.
Anyway, I thought it was interesting that you regret giving up CHA while I regret giving up STR and DEX. That grass over on your side sure does look nice and green.
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Hello Treantmonk,
One of my fellow players created a bard and used your Control build as a template of sorts. We are all level 1 and we played a Pathfinder Society scenario.
There were 3 or 4 combat encounters. The bard was very effective using her whip and net. She tripped at least one bad guy with her whip every encounter and entangled the enemy sorcerer in the last encounter with her net.
The rest of the party is melee focused (2 Inquisitors, Paladin, Ranger, Magus, Druid (SotB)). The bard was really a star in that type of group. The AOOs that we got made the encounters almost too easy.
+2+1!
Instead consider straight Bard...very workable..
Dear Mr. TreeMinky,
When can we expect some APG updated to your guides? And will you be giving the Witch a guide of her own?
+3!
Treantmonk, how about your opnion of the bard spells in the APG? I'd love to know!!
+2+1!
Instead consider straight Bard...very workable..
Dear Mr. TreeMinky,
When can we expect some APG updated to your guides? And will you be giving the Witch a guide of her own?
+3!
Treantmonk, how about your opnion of the bard spells in the APG? I'd love to know!!
Oh yes please Mr. Minky!
Oh yes please Mr. Minky!+2+1!
Instead consider straight Bard...very workable..
Dear Mr. TreeMinky,
When can we expect some APG updated to your guides? And will you be giving the Witch a guide of her own?
+3!
Treantmonk, how about your opnion of the bard spells in the APG? I'd love to know!!
pretty pleaseeeeeeee
Guys/gals, don't pester him so! When he wants to look over the spells and give his opinion, he will! Just give TM some time, okay?
>.>
<.<
So.. TM, when ya gonna look at the spells? ;)
I really want to try the controller bard build and make the most of dazzling display. Problem is I can't see how to get dazzling display with my half-orc bard until level 5. Since the campaign is using slow progression, it might be a year or more before the group hits level 5 and I get to use it. What about taking a level of fighter at first level and then going bard all the way? A fighter would be able to meet the requirements for dazzling display at level 1. I could also get proficiency in the net this way via the beasthandler alternate racial trait (for half-orc controllers anyway).
I really want to try the controller bard build and make the most of dazzling display. Problem is I can't see how to get dazzling display with my half-orc bard until level 5. Since the campaign is using slow progression, it might be a year or more before the group hits level 5 and I get to use it. What about taking a level of fighter at first level and then going bard all the way? A fighter would be able to meet the requirements for dazzling display at level 1. I could also get proficiency in the net this way via the beasthandler alternate racial trait (for half-orc controllers anyway).
1st level feat - Weapon Focus (My half-orc bard used a greataxe...)
3rd level feat - Dazzling DisplayIf you go human, you could be a first level bard with dazzling display - (bonus feat for being human).
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see why you need to wait for 5th level?