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When you do a Combat Damage Calculator run, you can quickly see how +1 to attack can frequently give 1.5 damage or more than what flat 1 damage would offer. Not to mention, it makes it harder for Sneak Attack status conditions to hit.

So if you play a full BAB class you may get another 2 damage a round or more for every +1 to your attack. By level 10, a full BAB class could have the functional equivalent of another 2d6 Sneak Attack damage without all the rigaramole of trying to set up a sneak attack.

Plus, Rogue sneak attack damage is frequently tried to be accomplished by Two Weapon Fighting. Regardless of the merits of that, it could mean the person playing the rogue has to take even more To Hit penalties. That could be throwing a Rogue's damage per landed attack and damage per round out of the window.

I mean, people say Deadly Sneak is a trap option because taking -2 to your hit when you need to get situational/rider damage like Sneak Attack dice to land can translate to losing DPR. But by being a 3/4 class with no way of inherently boosting its To Hit via class features or spells, every attack is being gimped.

I have felt for a while now that Rogues should get full BAB and +1 to their attacks for every 1 die of Sneak Attack they have. Any d8 or d10 class that does not have spell casting should be given the full BAB and a situational boost to some of its attacks.

Cardinal Sins

1. Not Being Clear About Nature of Game
2. Not talking to players about Power Level.
3. Having players make their characters separately.
4. Not having character sheets made for the players
in your game so you can see what they can do.
5. Gross disregard for Wealth By Level guideliness,
with stinginess being worse than Monte Hall.
6. GM versus PC mindset, trying to "kill" players, deliberate
design of very challenging encounters with every fight having death on the line, etc.
7. Candy-coating the game, fudging too many rolls, refusing to let
pet characters that you made die and never genuinely threatening PCs.
8. Randomness that does not help the game but can cause needless
disparity and hurt feelings, particularly Random Attribute
Generation and Random Treasure
9. Gross Favoritism to players and certain concepts.
10. Being wildly antagonistic to certain players but
especially certain character concepts. Don't let things like Alchemists, Bards, Monks, Summoners, Witches, Mounted Characters, paladins into the game if you will just dick them over again and
again and again. You know what you Like and Dislike but try to be impartial. If you cannot, do not let people play things you will
not be fair towards.
11. Being unprepared, "winging it" and the like.
12. Being too far from "winging it" with slavish devotion to canned adventures and forcing people to do the "right things" AKA railroading.

With Bards, at what point DPR wise is their Inspire Courage and Spell buff output worth more than the comparable Sneak Attack?

Could it be level 7? Heroism for over an hour, Haste, +2 Inspire Courage?

+5/+2, +2 Save Bonus (+3 on Reflex), Extra Attack on Full Attack, +1 to AC, +30 Feet Movement...

I mean, that is a pretty beefy buff sequence to drop on a guy.
Is that stronger than 4d6 damage? I mean, I think it might be.

The thing that hops out to me about that rogue is that it has no positive Constitution Modifier, no positive Wisdom modifier, no traits related to saves, no racial abilities related to saves, no feats related to saves and only a +1 Cloak of Resisitance. +4 in your Fortitude and Will is a bad place to be.

This happens to many rogues at tables. They neglect their will and fortitude saves thinking"oh i have bad saves anyhow." You roll over and die to any will or fortitude save from almost any CR 8 to 12 monster in any Pathfinder bestiary.

Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Stop trying to make the rogue fight, rogue isn´t a combatant class.

Everyone has a duty in combat. The Witch isn't a martial character, for instance, but when it drops the DC 25 Slumber or Agony it is a combat contributor.

"The rogue isn't supposed to be a combat contributor. He is supposed to be the trap guy and face guy and we just whored that out to 20 different classes."


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Marthkus wrote:

I find the fighter comparisons amusing. The fighter is leaps and bounds more competent than a rogue. I have to grab one feat (intimidating prowess) to have a noticeable out of combat presence. With the rogue, I have to build my entire character around combat to even be noticeable.

Does the fighter still have problems? Yes. Are they rogue level problems? Not a chance in hell.

The Fighter may not be the strongest thing to do as a martial/combatant and lacks a lot in versatility but they at least interact competently in a fight. Rogues do not interact meaningfully in far too many combats. Sneak Attack gimps the class to pieces. The fool's gold promise of "truckloads of damage" from mid to high level play is silly. They expect a CR 12 monster to have an AC of about 25 and be approaching 200 hit points. The 3/4 BAB guy with no inherent boosts to accuracy will be dealing an additional 6d6 damage. That is not a truck load! 50 percent of the time that is less than an additional 21 damage! Where is the ¥$&@ing truckload that I was promised?

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I think rogues should be more accurate when sneak attacking and Sneak attack dice should
Interact with criticals. What if Sneak Attack was +1/+4 damage?

Neo2151 wrote:

Cross-class skills were fine.

It's their implementation that was dumb.

Instead of that stupid, "every point gives you a half-rank" nonsense, they could have just said, "cross-class have a max of 1/2 class level."
Confusion solved - As a bonus, Rogues don't feel totally as useless.

All the spells that add 10 to 30 to checks still exist and Rogue analog classes like Alchemists and Bards have many of them. 1st to 3rd level spells have the power of duplicating or exceeding somebody having max ranks in a skill.

The Cake is a Lie. Skills are cake. Therefore, Skills are Lies.

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I am surprised by the amount of love Sorcerers got. Extra spells known as racial bonuses,
Casting off Intelligence or Wisdom, strong and fun bloodlines, good traits and equipment.

Sorcerers can be BEASTS in Casterfinder. I mean PathCaster.

An 8 HD Flumph is medium and CR 4.
From then on, you can add support non-associated levels to have
A 16 HD guy who can support the party.

A Feather Fly animal cleric with restoration healing could be a great
Support to cast fly and healing and channel to help the party without overshadowing.

Inquisitor at Level 8 could be a strong NPC option for your party.

An Empyreal Sorcerer 8 could patch up the party if it is a bit lacking
in some of the big arcane spells.

A Flumph Druid like this could be a nice support, too.

If you consider monk non-associated, Monk 8 with Guided on the tentacles could work in a sensei build. Touched by his noodly appendage!

The most mechanically strong and thematically appropriate Ranged Rogue presented is...
12th level
Dips in a level of Gunslinger
Uses 11 levels of Ninja, not Rogue
Takes an archetype
Has about as much to do with a core rogue as Captain Crunch has with Captain Kangaroo.

Rogues are not allowed to do anything except try to Tumble-Flank beefed up monsters with CMDs of You Have Got To Be Freaking Kidding Me and try to stab a guy for truckloads of damage (if you consider a 3/4 BAB class single attacking for about 30 damage a "truckload").

Along with that, there is always the old standby of begging a full-caster to throw Greater Invisibilty on you so you can pretend to not be garbage in combat.

James Jacob and Jason Bulmahn would hate for you to do anything cheesy, like not suck a bag of hammers in combat. So back to two weapon fighting with horrible weapons and tumble-flanking like the Iconic Cliche that isn't Functional But Is "Flavorful" that you are.

Rogues have it hard in melee. Why aren't you flanking? Flanking isn't a given.
Acrobatics CMD makes being a Tumbler Rogue hella difficult bordering on impossible.
D8, Poor fortitude and will save and no big benefits for having con score make it rough.

People might think another player's character does more damage and try to set flanks for him so he can full attack.

Rogues have to work hard to be combat contributors, even damage wise.

Inquisitors with Bane, flanking feats, Animal domain animal companions out-rogue the rogue in Bane/Precise damage on Flanks and bring their own flanking buddies. Actually getting bonuses to hit means the to-hit buries the rogue.
With guided they are nearly a SAD class and they can find traps excellently.

That class is by no means broken, at all, by the way.

You can just accidentally out-rogue the rogue. As soon as Slayer and Swashbuckler go live, Rogue is done.

The Truckloads Of Damage thing is nothing but perceiving rolling a d6 with no critical synergy
As worth more than 3 or 4 flat damage with synergy, when it is not. They don't even do Melee burst damage all that well. Paladins and Rangers are the Focused Fire DPR guys.

Pathfinder has made an NPC class out of them.

How can you break balls on a Fighter who "optimized for combat?"
It is named FIGHTER, has no class abilities that are relevant out of
combat and has the worst skill points and skill list in the game.

Like, what else is he supposed to do? The player
class should be more than fighting but encompass the entirety
of War and be called the Warrior. The generic NPC class should be called
the Fighter. Warriors should have Extraordinary abilities like the Barbarian has in place of or in addition to his feats.
These things should provide out of combat utility and scale.

What is the fighter meant to be doing except stacking bonuses and
trying to maximize a swing with things like Power Attack/Deadly Shot
and critical feats? Take Skill Focus (Diplomacy) for the jollies?

Cheburn wrote:

If your GM is statting your normal NPC casters like that, you shouldn't play any martial (maybe a Superstitious Barbarian or a Paladin could get by, but it'd be less painful to just play a full caster and try to kill them before they get an action off). Seriously, those are like CR 20-21 saves (Balor, Ancient Gold Dragon, end boss of RotRL). Doesn't mean you can't run a campaign where every level 10 caster is tossing Persistent DC30 Will saves around, but it's ... a little high powered.

It just seems like the spell DCs are out of line and it helps the casters shine a lot and if you play a caster against the party is hard to not be overwhelming. The guidelines have DC 19 come up by Character Level 10 and many monsters are substantially higher than that.

N. Jolly wrote:

Me personally, I think we need more Fighter only feats, an easier path to Whirlwind Attack, and blows that debuff opponents and their speed. Maybe make them usable only once a combat, but then you get a ton of them, like one sickens, one entangles, one fatigues. Make the Fighter able to hold the line with some style.

I can hear it already...

"You want fighters to be Wizards with d10s and full BAB"
"You want Weeabo Fightan Majic"

God forbid a Fighter do something more with his life than throw a Falchion or Kukri at somebody and hope by a miracle he is allowed to full attack somebody.

Marthkus wrote:

Pathfinder has a serious inflated numbers problem.

Fighters get an additional +4 to hit

Paladins smite is now an I-WIN button and Ranger favored enemy now adds to to-hit

Paladins effectively use cha for health, allowing them to boost it higher for saves, and they no longer have any need for wisdom.

Barbars get a stupid bonus on practically all saving throws.

It's gotten to the point that you need full BAB + change to be effective.
Poor saves basically mean auto-fail with all the crazy bonuses running around.

Yet you didn't talk about the Numbers inflation with Spell DCs. I feel like such a mook when I run characters with poor saves. Somebody can get you with spells EASILY pushing DC 30 by like level 10. Easily.

Starting with 18 when that was a 70 to 1 on a character sheet in a rolling system. Getting a racial bonus to a casting stat was rare as HELL in 3.5. Now every single race in the core rulebook can provide a casting stat bonus. Traits jacking DCs, alternative class features and archetypes jacking DC, everything is jacked to the effing roof DC wise on spells. Fighter and Rogue need a floating Good Save soooo badly.

Or should they be allowed to choose which save they want to be Good in?

That seems to be a fairly common thing suggested for Fighters and Rogues and others and I like to give another Good save if I take a class from 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons and bring it up to Pathfinder snuff.

Does anybody else feel this way?

But what about Prestidigitation: The Dungeoneer's Bath?

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Justin Sane wrote:
I find it oddly amusing that the ones that "hate" the Fighter are the same ones trying to improve him.

It has been markedly inferior as a class for more than 10 years now.

It is supposed to be the Iconic Core 4 class and it has the versatility of a Klan uniform. Its Pathfinder boost/Fix is a total joke in comparison to triumphs of Pathfinder like Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers and introduced classes like Inquisitors.

So if fighters get 12 bonus feats, but Rangers get 5, you have to ask yourself if 7 feats, Bravery, Armor Training and Weapon Training and the capstone ability are worth all the Ranger abilities as stated.

So the 12 feats thing applies to going to 20, how many feats do you think the Tracker package of Wild Empathy, Track, Endurance, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Camoflague, Hide in Plain Sight, Favored Enemy bonuses when tracking, Quarry bonuses when tracking and 4 Favored Terrains is worth?

In a point-buy system you'd easily see that the Fighter has spent less points on his character but is meant to keep up with the other characters.

He's spent 200 and the Ranger, Paladin and Barbarian have spent about 300 and the full casters have spent about 350 to 400 or more.

Yet 1 Level of Fighter is supposed to be "worth" 1 level of Ranger but no point-buy system would shake things out like that.

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Playing a straight up Summoner could be stronger than playing a Synthesist. The real problem with Synthesists is that they show up a
martial combatant. This is why people go insane over things like Wild Shape and Polymorph, too. Because don't you get it man, you're the Summoner, you're not supposed to show up the Fighter or Monk or Rogue or Cavalier or something. You're Supposed To (tm) summon things.

The original You're Not Supposed To Do That in Dungeons and Dragons to me seems to be from FrankTheTrollman and it became a well known archetype in its own right: Cleric...ARCHERS. What? The Fighter and The Ranger are the Archers. Clerics aren't Supposed To Do That (tm).
Dat Niche Protection.

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The black raven wrote:
The Fighter will spend all his gold on his own magic items. While the Ranger has to equip his Companion too

How did you make a ranger's buffed Animal Companion a negative for the class?

That is like saying "The Fighter can fight all day but the Ranger will eventually run out of spells." Oh wait. People do say that. Like having access to spells in this system is BAD when it is obviously the bee's knees.

Fighters brag about NOT HAVING resource pools. Think how screwed up that is for a moment.

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It needn't be underwater. It could just be a fight in a swamp.
Swampy terrain fights SUCK.

4 squares of movement, you can't Tumble, the aboleth has cover. It is 200 feet away and you are fighting aboleth illusions as he hits you with DC 22 Will saves or be Dominated (Jesus!) uggh.
Just uggh.

BogBoleths can be rough.

Eh, you could give Lorewardens Intelligence to Initiative and Will saves
and probably just call it a wrap for me balance wise.

I know many people don't have this conception but I always thought Fighter was the Savvy, Smart Combatant.

"Yeah, the other guys can Rage and heal themselves and make jaguars pounce the other guy, but hey. I know ever mother!@#$ing thing there is to know about combat, but especially combat with falchions, and I'm about to PWN some monsters."

They should be the smart, sexy combat manuever beasts that we want them to be.

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Ilja wrote:
Fighters are simple, and elegant because of it, and I hate that no one seems to appreciate that. Power Gamers be damned!

They are not simple. Barbarians are simple. They are not elegant. Paladins are elegant. They've been a gimp class since 3.0 Dungeons and Dragons. Their Pathfinderization is notably inferior to the Pathfinderization of Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians.

Ah, the Ol' "If You Want A Fighter To Not Be Bad At Fighting You're a Power-Gamer!" thing. I guess you don't know that people who decry things like Fighter's lack of interesting abilities and versatility are actually FANS of this class. I would like for this class to not be garbage mechanically. I would like for most martial feats to not be garbage with luridly high pre-requisites.

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cnetarian wrote:

Of course a Ranger can tank pretty well and while evasion, self-healing, self buffing, a companion & a good reflex save mean a ranger arguably can be built with more effectiveness at tanking than...

So now that they we are "back on track" so to speak, the Ranger is a better damage soak and tank than the Fighter and to cap it all off, can buff and heal himself and others? Ooh. Talk about gimmick infringement!

Barkskin and other things even threaten the Fighter AC niche.

Mojorat wrote:

Fighters should be tops in any game where they are given a chance to full attack. The character can be designed to deal with multiple situations involving combat wether its being trained in multiple weapons or combat maneuvers.

Getting melee full attacks is horrendously difficult and gets harder as the game goes upwards in level which makes the game so much harder for Fighters it is crazy. At the same time, it becomes easier for magical classes and ranged combatants to crank out multiple spells with minions like summons and blot out the sun with arrows.

Lots of stuff needs to be reigned in. CMD going 10+Strength AND Dexterity was a disaster. Now Fighters can't even tumble into flanks!
They spend 3 feats to grapple and trip worse than they did in 3.5!
Fighters get "feats." Everybody gets feats! That isn't good enough!
They get fiddly things that amount to pissant bonuses like +3 AC at level 10. WOO. Bravery was them chickening out on Choose your Good Save Reflex-or-Will. We all know it.
They didn't fold Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization so people still get duped into going 4 feats deep to be +2/+4 with one weapon. Any spell replicates that and then some. It is just a huge ripoff and noob enticing trap option.

They did wind up with the Archetypes in producing things that aren't total garbage, so I'll give 'em that much. But even then.

Martial Classes:

Ranger (Archery)

In about that order for me...

Sorcerers with guidance or pre-gens

3/4 Casters:
Alchemist (Harder but possible)
Summoner (Not recommended)

Rogues and Ninja
Wizards and Witches

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Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization are trap feats.
Incorporate it into Weapon Training, please.
The sky will not fall if a 4th level Fighter is another
+1/+2 with his Falchion. It really won't.

Let them pick a Good Save.

Let the Lorewarden with Fighter abilities be the template.

Realize that separating Improved like Trip feats into multiple
feats is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.

Go back to Power Attack the way it used to be, no caps.

Lower some of these pre-requisties, FFS.
Why do fighters have to work harder than casters for their feats?
Dazing Spell, pre-requisite being the strongest class in the game.

Greater TWF...

HEAD ASPLODES. Greater TWF isn't even any good!

I agree with the posters here. Fighters aren't even all that good at tanking. Why do people think Tank equals "Wow, look at my AC!"
No. Just no. There is a lot more to tanking than that.

Paladins are better tanks.

Compare a B.S. class feature like Bravery to the Paladin's Aura of Courage.

Bravery AKA Fighter Class {Dr. Evil Hands}"Feature"{Dr. Evil Hands}
Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

Aura of Courage AKA "FU, Fighter Class Feature!"
At 3rd level, a paladin is IMMUNE TO FEAR (magical or OTHERWISE).
Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus (Equivalent to a 14th Level Fighter's Bravery as a RIDER AURA FOR TEAMMATES!)
on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions only while the paladin is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.

Other things the fighter doesn't have

Charisma to Saves and superior Saves
Immunity to Disease. The Fighter would get something awful to help his Fortitude save named something like "Booster Shot" because anything else wouldn't be "realistic."
Aura of Resolve at Level 8 (IMMUNITY to charm spells and SLAs) and a +4 rider to that at Level 17
Spells to heal and hurt enemies
Swift action, relevant healing that removes important status effects like Dazed, Blinded, Nauseated, Fatigued and Staggered.

This is a relic of poor design, a goddawful character class just a mathematical cut above being a Warrior NPC.

Play a Vivisectionist Alchemist
Take Trap-Finder as one of your Traits
Forget the Rogue ever existed

Play an Investigator or play a Slayer with Trap-Finder.
Forget the Rogue ever existed

Play a Ranger with Trap Finder
Take Boon Companion for free Flanking Buddy and incidental damage.
Marvel at your buffed Dire Tiger or Dire Wolf doing as much damage as your Rogue used to with Strongjaws, Vital Strike and Improved Natural Attack.
Actually hit things in combat

Play a variant Bard or play a Bard with Trap-Finder.


With Celestial, Twilight, Mithril and the light floating around, do people really wear heavy armor?

Enchanted "not-armor" for the casters, Mithril Chainshirts and Breastplates for everybody else.

Full Plate is doo doo. It should at least offer some untyped DR or something.

Fighter over the Ranger, 10th level

1/3 the skill points with an inferior skill list
No Favored Terrain
No Favored Enemy
Bonus Feats require pre-requisites
No innate casting ability
No Animal Companion
Doesn't get the Track package(Track, Endurance, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker)
Poor Reflex Save without Evasion

3 Additional Feats
+1 or +2 with Weapon Training
Armor Training
Modest increase to Will Save against Fear effects


Deadmanwalking wrote:

This is true, and why using the Advanced Simple Template to reflect having Wished all their stats up is something I tend to do to main villains in general...but is particularly nice for Fighters.

Eh, not really. Like, lets say we have two villains. One is a Ranger 10

and the other is a Fighter 10. Having an 18 in his Wisdom helps the Ranger more than the Fighter. It synergizes with the Ranger's skill list better (Heal and Perception are class skills) and it also nets the Ranger 2 3rd level spells.

18 Intelligence base for a Fighter is meh. It is fantastic for a Magus.
18 Charisma is fairly blah for the Fighter. It is fantastic for the Antipaladin.

Not having Arcane casting is rough. Especially on things that provide mobility and crowd control. Haste, Slow, Blindness/Deafness, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Invisibility/Mirror Image/Blur/Displacement, Black Tentacles, Summon Monster XYZ, Fly, Identify, Heroism, etc. Every person's bread and butter is different but having Haste access and not having Haste access can make or break so many encounters.

One you hit 5th and 6th level spells, missing out on the sheer power of those spells is brutal. Bards and Inquisitors and Summoners and the like, the 3/4 casting class people, can patch you on missing the bread and butter stuff. But they don't have the raw power that 5th and 6th levels spells have.

I think it is harder missing out on Arcane casting than Divine casting, considerably.

The BBEG is the BIG BAD Evil Guy. You should be about coin-flipping against him since you should have been easily defeating the other encounters.

That sorcerer is by the book CR 11 or 12 but we all know that Planar Binding and chucking out DC 26-29 Saves targeting almost every save
is way out of line with CR 11 or CR 12.

DCs that high are staunchly into end game/Mythic play. For instance,
a DC 26 Glitterdust, DC 27 Repulsion and DC 29 with Hungry Pit puts the DCs into CR 18-20+ range by the book.

There isn't much a fighter is going to do against a Sorcerer with defensive spells up slinging that much firepower. Hell, there isn't much most anything is going to be doing against a guy slinging that much firepower.

So in the end this just proved that Pathfinder is Casterfinder (with things well noted to be flaws in the system, like Sorcerers not casting off Charisma, Paragon Surge and the like) but we already knew that.

Monk: Utter headache rules hodge podge cluster!@#$ in the system after 14 years. Works super hard to be almost as good as a typical Full BAB.
Whenever it gets good things, it gets the developer smackdown, pardon me,
"errata is issued." Needs high levels of dumpster diving, equipment specialization and a strong grasp of the rules to achieve competency or anything a bit beyond it.

Paladin: The High King of Game Crushing. Get ready to debate Objective Morality and RAI/RAW and falling/atonement with the wrong groups.
This is mechanically the best fix in Pathfinder, a crowning achievement, but it can still be hell to play. Recently this place had a discussion about stripping a mid level paladin of powers for the blasphemous evil acts of winning 10 gold pieces in a poker game and not buying an informant a drink at a bar.

Funky 3.5 Throwback Classes:
The game is backwards compatible. The designers say as much.
But walk to the table with Psionics, Incarnum, Tome of Battle or something like that and lots of Pathfinder players lose their cool. It has nothing to do with power level or flavor. Hell, lots of these classes are viable 3/4 casters and the like. Binder, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Factotum, Dragonfire Adept, Swordsage/Unarmed Swordsage, Warblades and Crusaders and the like.

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andreww wrote:
SPCDRI wrote:
I think the Succubus thing is pretty cheesy, but whatever.
It is actually fairly tame. He could be using the level 6 planar binding to bind a Glabrezu. SR24 and a +11 Will save mean it might take a few more attempts and the risks if it were to get free are rather more significant. However on its own its a CR13 opponent and therefore a serious risk to any CR12 encounter he might have.

Yeah, I do realize that Planar Binding could be something else, like a CR 12 or CR 13 Creature on its own.

Pathfinder: We Made The Magical Classes Stronger To Discourage Multi-Classing (Also, Because We Really Love Casters)

I think the Succubus thing is pretty cheesy, but whatever.

Here is a CR 8 Version of the Gauth...

Medium Aberration (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 12d8+36 (100 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), fl y 20 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 22 (+4 Dex, +8 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3
Attack: Eye rays +13 ranged touch attack and bite +11 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Eye rays +13 ranged touch attack and bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Eye rays, Stunning Gaze
Special Qualities: All-around vision, True Seeing,
Greater Arcane Sight, darkvision 120 ft., flight,
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +11
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 19, Wis 16, Cha 21
Skills: Knowledge (the planes) +10, Knowledge (Local) +10,
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (Nature) +10,
Intimidate +26, Perception +22, Sense Motive +19, Stealth +22,
Fly +15, Survival +12, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +17
Feats: AlertnessB, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative,
Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus:Intimidate,
Improved Natural Armor, Re-Roll Initiative
Environment: Underdark
Organization: Solitary, pair, or cluster (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 8

Eye Rays:
A Gauth may use these 8 eye rays as free actions. They have a range of 60 feet and a 90 degree arc.
No more than 2 Eye Rays may be targeted at the same person.
Fear: As the spell, Will Save
Inflict Moderate Wounds:
This works like the spell, causing 2d8+10 points of damage (Will half).
Dispel Magic: This works like the targeted dispel function
of the spell. The gauth’s dispel check is 1d20+12.
Eye Blast: This deals 6d6 points of damage (no save).
Paralysis: The target must succeed on a Fortitude
save or be paralyzed for 5 rounds.
Exhaustion: Exhaustion, no save
Telekinesis: As the spell Telekinesis
Slow: As the spell, against Reflex

Stunning Gaze: 30 foot gaze attack. DC 21 Will Save or be stunned for 1 round.

Lets say a 9th level party. A 13th Level Fighter is a Speed Bump against a 9th Level "Standard Party" of Full Divine Caster ("Cleric),
Full BAB Combatant ("Fighter"), Full Arcane Caster ("Wizard") Skills and Abilities/Three-Quarters Caster Class ("Rogue").

Almost any class is unless they are casting somehow, the more magic the better. Specifically, Arcane magic. That is just a fact.

The least versatile combatant in the weakest thing to do in the game
will get stomped by a Standard Composition party with by-the-book WBL.

If you include CR 11 monsters and Level 12 Casters to accompany that 13th level fighter, there remains a very legitimate problem that the henchmen upstage the BBEG.

As solo combatants, Fighters don't work. As solo combatants, almost nothing in Pathfinder "works."

Brute combat falls off a CLIFF in Pathfinder. It is not sufficient past double digit level play.
Linear Combat, Quadratic Casting.

Johnico wrote:

The game assumes you have the Big Six, but never outright states it,
nor tells you what the game math assumes you have.

To use a somewhat extreme example, two 10th level parties, one who gets nothing but interesting magic items and the other gets nothing but the Big Six, are completely different in capability.
The rules make no indication that that's the case.
The closest thing is the suggestions on building PCs after 1st level.

What I prefer is either like 4e D&D where they tell you what kind of +s the game math assumes you have at a given level, or like most other RPGs where the game is designed so you don't need magic knick-knacks, they're just a nice bonus.

I love giving out cool magic stuff, I just want the game to tell me either A) We balanced this assuming they have +X gear at Y level or B) We balanced this assuming no magic stuff and anything you give is just a cool bonus.


About 90 percent of the people who read that thought "PREACH!"
The other 10 percent or so said "What's the Big Six?"

But what am I supposed to have By Level? When is my +2 Armor meant to be +3 Armor?

Armor/Shield Enchantment
Cloak of Resistance/Resistance Boost To Saves
Ability Score Boosters
Natural Armor Enhancement
Deflection AC Enhancement
+X Weaponry

There are also things that most adventures will almost always buy, so much that they seem to be de facto game assumptions.

Handy Haversack and Bag of Holding are two of them. I think

I don't think so. I think there needs to be some grounding in the realistic game mechanics of the game or else we are just playing
Cops and Robbers or something.

There is a flawed yet functional framework for determining things.

There is no reason why a 7th or 8th level Fighter would be a better
Charismatic Warlord than an Incubus Fighter 1.

Unless I want to radically inflate the Fighter's scores and triple its skill points and give it several potent Suggestions and Charms in the DC 20s either....

1. Just Cuz

2. Or give it tens if not hundreds of thousands of GP of gear.


That final point is bunk, too.
The system has the Ability Score/Skill/Class Ability Magic stuff in place.
It sounds like you want something like (making it up on the spot) "The Ham Acting Fallacy" or "I'm a ROLE Player, not a ROLL Player."

Sure the Pete with the Bard maxed out Bluff and cast
Glibness and has a Charisma of 22 and put a lot of mechanical
resources into being a great conman and liar character but Pete just cannot ROLEPLAY.

Then Steve playing the Fighter can roleplay but he has nothing to indicate that his Fighter is even merely mechanically competent as
a liar, much less "Potentially the best liar in the kingdom" that Pete's Bard character is.

Could Pete roleplay his Bard as having a Full Attack Bonus and Bravery and Armor Training and Weapon Training and Armor and Weapon Proficiencies? No. So why do you want the Fighter BBEG to "roleplay" being somebody with suave statecraft and master plans?

His role is to be the FIGHTER not that other stuff. Make the enemy a Magus or an Antipaladin or a Monster or a Bard or a Wizard if you want that stuff. "The Fighter" is limited as a BBEG because he has a limited role by his name...FIGHTING.

Kudaku wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

I'm surprised you think the bulk of games see the majority of action at lvl 8-12? At least in my local gaming scene most PF games take place below lvl 10 and rarely make it above lvl 8.

The last few games I have been in started at 7, 8, 8 and 10 respectively,

and leveled up a few times and moved on to other stuff.

I always thought d20 was at its best from level 7ish/8ish to 12ish.

But in most games the BBEG I have been in it is a...

Full Caster or a Monster.

Maybe I have skewed perception on that.

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Lets turn things on their heads...

When was the last time a 3/4 Spellcaster was the Big Bad Evil Guy?

I think mechanically speaking, a mid to high level Bard would be
a bigger challenge for PCs than a fighter. Seriously.

We had the No Caster/Full Caster Scuze Me While I Whip This Out
at CR 20. It ALWAYS happens in threads like this.

But how about something more reasonable and relevant to where the bulk of games see the majority of the action, 8-12 level?

How about a CR 12 or 13?

I bet the Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor or Summoner would all give
a Fighter 12 or Fighter 13 a run for the money in combat
and bring a bunch of other ways to hurt the PCs that are beyond
fighting in the dungeon or the palace or something.

The whole thread is kind of a strange one.

"When's the last time you used one of the weakest 1-20 character classes as a standalone villain, when it has been almost universally acknowledged for almost 15 years that characters like this are under-CRed, lack power and versatility, get stomped in action economy and are invalidated by dozens of readily available spells and abilities?"

To cap it all off, there is no mechanical justification in race selection, class selection or feat selection to make a Fighter a Charismatic Warlord or Cunning Mastermind or Wise And Vicious Crime Lord or something. The only real option is just giving the PC enemy 18s or better in mental stats and giving them expensive items like Circlets of Persuasion and Intelligence boosting items and skill boosting items that make the "Treasure Pinata" a quadruple treasure Fat Tuesday/Cinco De Mayo Platinum Piece Punching Bag.

It is true.

And after you break your BALLS off making the 11th level fighter or whatever...

It still isn't as good of an overall challenge as an Antipaladin, Barbarian or Ranger. So how about that for a kick in the teeth?

Shadowborn wrote:

A couple things:

First, you should have three odd stats and three even stats as that's the standard.

Second, this thing's stats and general abilities are a lot higher than I remember the original gauth's being. This is actually on par with an actual beholder. A quick glance at the ability DCs, hp, and damage output puts this thing firmly in CR 11 territory, with some things edging into CR 12. Gauths weren't nearly that powerful.

I'd check out this 3.5 version and work from there. Be sure to check the monster creation rules to get things where you want them for its CR.

Thanks a lot. I know the original is CR 6 but I was shooting for a maxed out version of it. So this is the version with the most HD possible.

I was shooting for CR 11, on the high end of CR, possibly very nearly CR 12 with it. So thanks for that explanation of why it is CR 11/12 in this incarnation.

Really appreciate it!

Edit: Shoot, first post is too old to edit.

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Edit: Help with skills please, too.

Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 16d8+64 (136 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), Fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 25(+2 Insight, +5 Dex, +8 natural),Touch 16, A Gauth may never be flanked, caught flat-footed or surprised (All-Around Vision and Foresight ability)
Base Attack/CMD/CMD: +12/+20/+34
Attack: Eye rays +17 ranged touch attack and bite +16 melee
(2d6+12 17-20X2)
Full Attack: Eye rays +18 ranged touch attack and bite +16 melee (2d6+24 17-20X2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Eye rays, Stunning Gaze
Special Qualities: All-Around Vision, Foresight, Greater Arcane Sight (180 Ft.), True Seeing (180 Ft.), Darkvision 180 Ft., Flight, Stunning Cone, Spell Resistance 20
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +15
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 16
Skills: Placeholder, trying to nail them out...
Feats: AlertnessB, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Cornugon Smash,
Power Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Dodge, Mobility
Environment: Cold Hills
Organization: Solitary, pair, or cluster (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 11
Alignment: Usually Neutral Evil, Tending Towards Chaotic Evil

Gauths are sometimes derided as "baby beholders" or termed "lesser beholders" but woe betide anyone who is discovered to have insulted a proud and noble Gauth in such a fashion!

Smaller physically than "True Beholders," Gauths are 5 foot spheres that weigh approximately 500 pounds. They are more mobile than Beholders and since they have innately "weaker" (A gauth would say uniquely capable and ruthlessly specialized, thank you very much!) spell-like abilities, Gauths have a Savage Bite that has been compared by some anthropologists and adventures to that of a Bulette.

Gauths have disposed of the Law and restrictive and rigid Hive Mind of their more well-known counterparts. They have a mercenary and organized crime bent and often sell themselves as reconnaissance men and artillery pieces for militaries. They can tend to be a bit more Chaotic as well and have been known to work as Crime lords, highwaymen and most infamously of all...


Watch yourself if you find a gauth on your "team," however.
Though they possess no hands, they will not hesitate to stab you in the back!

Relationships with Other Monsters: They are distrusted by most everyone, and despised by "True" Beholders. Eye Rays fly whenever Gauths and Beholders meet.

Special Abilities:
All-Around Vision
Darkvision 180 Feet
True Seeing as Spell of same name
Foresight as Spell of same name
Greater Arcane Sight (180 feet) as Spell of same name.
Savage Bite: A Beholder's Bite has a critical threat range of 17-20

Eye Rays (SLA): These are Spell-Like Abilities that work as though they were cast by a 16th level caster. They have 100 feet ranges and are Free Actions. The Save DC is charisma-based
1. Exhaustion (No Save)
2. Sleep (DC 21 Will Save, fall asleep for 5 rounds, no HD limit)
3. 10d6 Damage, Energy Subtype Varies By Beholder, No Save
4. Inflict Critical Wounds, as 18th level caster (4d8+18, DC 21
Will Save for half damage.)
5. Greater Dispel Magic, Targeted, as 16th Level Caster
6. Paralysis (DC 21 Fortitude Save or Paralyzed for 5 Rounds)
7. Telekinesis as the spell
8. Slow as the spell (5 round duration)

Stunning Gaze (Su): Gaze Attack, Stun for 1 round, 30 feet,
Will DC 21 negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

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