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Thanks again for all the discussion!

Okay, this is clearly a grey area, so I don't feel like a complete a@!+%%! in making the ruling I did in the game.

I have learned that I am doing surprise rounds wrong. If the monsters start it, they aren't flat footed. My mistake.

Thanks for the discussion.

Surprise rounds are wierd anyway.

This happens all the time: The monsters jump out from cover. Party makes the percep check, then party gets the init, goes first and ambushes the ambushers while they are still flat footed.

How can the monsters, who started the surprise round, be flat footed?

So the possibility of someone maybe not being able to take 10 BEFORE the surprise round doesn't phase me one bit.

I am just saying that I don't understand the actual rule involved. Once the rule is clear, I can always discuss a house rule if it bothers me.

Jiggy wrote:
Prawn wrote:
A guard should be guarding, so that's taking 10.
According to what? Why do you believe this? What originally gave you the idea that T10 has anything at all to do with something you're deliberate about?

That is why I asked the question. I am not sure. The guard example is not mine. It just seems to me that take 10 is mostly for people doing a routine task, like a craft check or guard duty. It just means you are doing the job, but not exerting yourself, doing an average job.

A cop walking the beat for 8 hours would be taking 10 most of the time, seems to me. If his take 10 shows something, the cop might look again, and/or even take 20.

I am just saying that Canthin's example is of a guard doing guard duty.

A guard should be guarding, so that's taking 10.

If a guard's job is guarding, he would be doing it on purpose, so that's what taking 10 is about.

If a PC is walking down a road, he might not be on guard when something jumps out at him.

Still listening. Thanks for all the input!

Thanks for the input.

Seems like so many take 10s involve the PC putting in routine effort, like climbing or crafting. This involves the character knowing they are doing the activity, and using their level of skill to be on autopilot.

If you are walking down the street, not actively perceiving, can you take 10 on the perception check when someone jumps out at you?

Is there anything preventing you from taking 10 in a surprise round before your init?

If not, then I made a mistake in my ruling.

As a DM, I ruled last night that perception checks for surprise had to be rolled, reasoning that surprise was a distraction.

The player said that taking 10 does not involve any intention, so he could take 10 even if he doesn't know he needs to be actively looking for something.

What do you guys think?

In tonight's game, we were in a trapped, flooding room. We cast rope trick and swam up inside, like a diving bell.

Thanks for putting this together! We finished a campaign tonight, and rolled up new characters for an e6 game I will start DMing next week using core + the codex.


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Arise, thread! Arise and live!

Would these rules apply for another SU ability like two channel energies at the same time?

These rules come from the section on Combining Magical Effects. Smite seems like a magical effects, so that seems like it fits. But the specific language references spells, which brings up the question, does this apply to other magical abilities that are not spells?

@skylancer4: Aura is a 10 radius. You could easily get the whole party, and if you are on your horse, the horse gets it automatically.

@Avianfoo: I don't buy that they are different powers.

My question is, assuming they are the same, would the horse's power stack with the power he gets from his master's aura?

Gotcha. There are advantages to the paladin activating it twice if he is fighting certain opponents. Against evil outsiders, dragons, etc, he gets double his level in damage on the first hit of the smite, so if he has smites to burn, he could resmite the same person and get double damage again on the first strike of the new smite. Not a thing to do if you are running out of smites, but it would be useful sometimes.

I'm not trying to squeeze out the numbers, just trying to figure out what my 11th level Pally can do with his newly celestial mount. Neither has smite Chaos. What would that look like, anyway? Telling the monster to clean up his room?

wraithstrike, the aura uses the paladin's level, while the smite evil uses the horses HD, so the vaules will be different. I can understand the argrument for only the highest one working.

Skylancer4, you raise an interesting issue, but there is always more than one round in a game. The horse could activate his and then the next round, the paladin could turn on the aura. I don't see that as an issue. Claxon seems to be saying that even though the bonuses are untyped and might stack RAW, since the Aura is like a smite, they come from the same source, and should not stack. Avianfoo says they should stack because they are untyped. Both positions seem defensible. Is it back to a coin toss then?

Okay then, here are both sides of the argument. The aura either stacks with the horse's smite evil he gets from being celestial or it doesn't. Any rules we can bring to bear, or it is a coin toss?

I am happy to agree, but it seems cheesy. What if you had two paladins, could they Aura of Courage each other and then activate their own smite? Seems possible to double dip this way, although it's not what I am going for. Any body else want to weigh in?

Aura of Courage lets me share the pally's smite with his mount, using the paladin's bonus. The mount has the celestial template, so gets a smite with his own HD to damage once a day.

If they both smite the same target, the smite is coming from different sources. Does the mount get his own smite and the pally's smite, or would only the highest one apply?

I am confused since they are from different sources, and although it seems like it should be a sacred bonus, it is an untyped bonus.


I know that multiple people can join a grapple, so several people can pile on to subdue someone.

What if a monster grabs PC 1, can PC 2 join the grapple to free him, or is he limited to simply attacking the monster?

I know you can always aid another for +2, but that doesn't seem as much help as piling on the monster should be. I don't want to reverse the grapple, just have party members try and help free PC 1.

Thanks for the response! That is kind of what I was thinking to get the AoO. Of those, kick works best thematically, but it's not worth a feat, so I guess I will go with boot blade.

Anyone want to speculate why this post still has gotten no love a day after is was posted? Is there something silly about the question or something?

Let's say I am armed with a lance, and my mount has greater overrun (see below for the feat). We charge, knocking an opponent down, provoking on AoO from us both (we will ride on through, but that isn't really relevant to my question). My horse hits the guy with a hoof, but I don't think I can get an AoO because I am wielding a reach weapon and the opponent is adjacent.

What can I do so that I benefit from that AoO?

I think armor spikes will do it, but I don't like the flavor of that since I am on a horse and the opponent is prone.

I couldn't kick him as an AoO because I don't think natural weapons threaten unless I have the improved unarmed combat feat.

Would a blade boot work? I like the flavor of that better, and it is on my foot, which is close to the opponent. Is there anything else I can do so that I benefit from that AoO?


Here's the feat:
Greater Overrun (Combat)
Enemies must dive to avoid your dangerous move.

Prerequisites: Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6, Str 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrun a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Overrun. Whenever you overrun opponents, they provoke attacks of opportunity if they are knocked prone by your overrun.

Normal: Creatures knocked prone by your overrun do not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Here's the blade boot:
Blade Boot
Blade boots come with a spring-mounted knife that pops out when triggered with the right combination of toe presses.

Benefit: You can use a blade boot as an off-hand weapon.

Action: Releasing the knife is a swift action; rearming it is a full-round action.

Drawback: When the blade is extended, you treat normal terrain as difficult and difficult terrain as impassable.

Aren't they poisonous? Wouldn't the DC of their posion change?

I think in 1e, there was a table with speed factors and how different weapons fared against different types of armor. At that point there were tactical reasons beyond damage for every single weapons choice.

And it all gets multipled on a crit or a charge as well!

I've seen dogs that were trained to bring you a beer.

@ Gustavo: Well, a paladin's mount has INT 7, so it can take ranks in anything, including perform.

I dunno, Googleshng, yes he bit the dude, but he bit him and then knocked him prone. Is knocking someone prone usually part of a bite attack? If horses don't have grapple, they've got trip.

Horse knocked dude prone! Too bad the horse didn't have the trample feat.

My character's horse won't go there. She's a mare named Buttercup.

Is that what comes after the pin?

I agree that prone is not grappled, but if a big horse is standing next to someone who is prone, an obvious question is: can it grapple them?

The mount in question has improved overrun, so he knocks them down and generally stops adjacent to take advantage of the AoO when they get up. Seems like he could stand on them and pin them, which would require a grapple roll.

They can overrun, and once someone is prone, seems like they could try and pin them with a hoof, but they don't have grabby parts. Without the feat, it would provoke and AoO, but is there a rule against horses grappling? If it makes a difference, in our game we are talking about a Paladin's mount, so he has INT 7.

I didn't ask about an unwilling target, I asked about an unconscious subject. Grapple isn't what we are looking for here.

That makes sense. Seems like you could handle it with the AC of the object or the DC of the ride roll, but either way, something small should be harder to grab. But check out this trick rider, in this 17 sec video, she's picking something up while hanging upside down by one leg from her moving horse! It's called the Cossak drag.


I like the touch attack vs the object. DC 20 seems about right. Thanks for the input. If it comes up again, I might suggest this to the DM.

So you are talking three or four rounds for an unconscious ally. I might agree if I were picking up someone heavy. In the video, the guy leans over from his horse and scoops the goat up off the ground and rides off with it. It it clearly possible in real life, and my character has 16 in ride. Seems like there out to be a DC that would let me attempt it in one round, even if the DC is high. I am a strong human, picking up a 35 halfling. Should be possible for an expert rider, or in game terms, someone with the right ranks and feats.

What would the DC be to ride by and pick up a willing ally? It seems to happen in every western movie, whenever someone's horse gets shot. Would it require feats? How much harder would it be if the guy you were picking up didn't have a readied action to help?

What about to ride by and pick an unconscious ally up off the ground? Like at 2:06 of this video, where Rambo picks up the goat:


I wanted to do that in last night's game to a halfling that was knocked out and was in danger, but I couldn't figure it how it would work, rules-wise.

I think any bonus to hit would be a bonus to CMB if you use the weapon to do the maneuver, for example trip. Is there an enchantment which raises CMB in general? You don't always use a weapon to do combat manuvers, so I am not sure when it would apply.

Thanks! That must have been what I was thinking of. I guess there is no "offensive combat training" equivalent, but I think some classes can use level instead of CMB, Monks and Oracles for example.

It's actually a mount for a Paladin. It is a horse, and they have high str. If I could add str and dex, that would help, but swapping str for dex would lower the mount's cmb.

Specifically I want to up the CMB of an animal companion.

Martiln wrote:
Prawn wrote:

Also Improved Overun, which says they don't have the option to let you thru when you overrun. Seems like sometimes you would want to give them the option to let you through.

Then just move normally through their square?

The way the feat is written, they lose the option to simply step aside. If you lose the CMB roll, you stop in the square you are in, and can't continue. Seems like there might be times, say if you are charging a giant, where it would be advantageous not to have to make the CMB roll.

Also Improved Overun, which says they don't have the option to let you thru when you overrun. Seems like sometimes you would want to give them the option to let you through.

Whale_Cancer wrote:

Jesus wasn't the only one with charisms.

Yes, it was common place at the time, and many believe it still is, but if the most famous person to do it only laid on hands seven times in his twenty-seven healing miracles, I don't think appealing to this tradition has much bearing on the argument at hand, other than to say you don't need to touch someone to heal them in the biblical tradition.

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