Stéphane Le Roux's page

Apparently this is in error and Paizo should instead assume we're all robots without a molecule of common sense between us just to please literalists who want to twist the rules in their favour.

If SKR ceased insulting peoples when he's wrong, it would be a good start of "what Paizo should do".

This:

I don't know about everybody else, but I pay for writing, I don't pay for intentions.

That's the context of your response, doesn't it? and that's in this context that I'm responding.

I can rephrase my response: the job of a game designer is to transform intentions into playable stuff. We don't need any game designer to have intentions or ideas; it take less than a 6-second round to formulate an intention: "it would be cool to have an alternate magic system, in which we create spells by choosing the target/zone and different effects". It take far more time to transform this intention into a playable rules.

If the rules aren't playable, the job is not done, and my friend don't want to pay. That's true even when the intend is clear.

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RAI are a myth: since we can't read the thoughts of the designer, only the RAW exists, the text written by the game designer; his whole job is to transform his intention into RAW.

Exactly - the generalist helps the specialists do their job better - something I mentioned above but that Stephanie inexplicably failed to see, can't think why.

Oh. I see the problem.

You think that "generalist" is the contrary of "specialist". that's not the case: a commoner isn't a specialist, but he's not a generalist either.

To be a generalist, a character must be doing well in many different field of expertise. The monk doesn't. He's mediocre at melee, he's mediocre at skills, he has a high speed but mediocre mobility, and... That's it. "Being mediocre at some task" is not the profile of a generalist.

So by that logic if I dispel a Flaming Sphere any damage that it did goes away, since it has a duration and then is not "permanent".

No. Because non-instantaneous spells can also have non-magical consequences. Like damages.

Flesh to Stone instantly turns you into stone instantly, and was mentioned under the description of instantaneous as a side effect of the magic.

Nothing is mentioned under the description. The effect is no "more" instantaneous than Blindness/deafness or Baleful polymorph, it's just less dispel-able. Stop lying please.

Most people don't want a LAWBOOK filled with piles and piles of mind numbingly redundant text to handle every little rules hack, they want some guidelines for kicking back and hanging out with friends. Yeah, you want things to be as tight as possible, but you also don't want to have to repeat things that are obvious.

My friend want usable content.

They don't want to add a bunch of houserule to have playable content. Because they can create houserules themselves in the first place: they pay Paizo to do this job, but if Paizo fail to deliver... That's why they don't buy splatbooks any more.

Like I said, sometime the intend is obvious, sometime not. We can't even discuss of the broken things with non-obvious intend, because nobody even know what it's supposed to do; the developers themselves don't know (eg: share spell and the synthesist, former FAQ). If the developers were able to create things which work as intended, there would be no problem with non-obvious intend: the thing just does what's written, which make sense.

Nope, I read it properly. He just proved my point, unintentionally. Because clearly by his description of Instantaneous, a fireball is permanent.

Did you actually read the description of the fireball? Or did you chose an instantaneous spell at random, hoping that you're right?

Fireball

A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

The damages last forever. So does the different secondary effects (set fire, melt metal, etc).

Anyway, where did you see any mention of a duration for flesh to stone? That's the first example I used, and you claim that it prove your point. Please explain.

The wording probably could be better, I might suggest wording be applied to mention it, but from everything in this thread, it seems everyone knows the intent and the way the spell works such that they don't turn a word into a duration into permanent undispellable effects.

Half of the content of the splatbook of Pathfinder doesn't work as intended. Sometime, the intend is obvious. eg: instantaneous WoP, kensai's iaijutsu (the ability to draw his weapon as part of an AoO doesn't work).

Sometime, it's not. And the content is unusable, because nobody know what it should do. eg: the blight hex ("this hex doesn't do anything. Fort negates"), the synthesist. For the later, even the FAQ isn't self-consistent ("the Eidolon have no skill therefore a bonus to skill is applied to the summoner, and the eidolon also has no mental ability and therefore a bonus to mental ability isn't applied to the summoner": WTF ? And the whole "share spell doesn't allow to cast enlarge on an Eidolon" in the first version of the FAQ) and therefore, doesn't help so much.

The first step to get only usable content is that the creators recognize when their new stuff doesn't work as intended. Even if the intend is obvious.

Which means unless it says otherwise in the description it flashes and goes away. If it lasts longer then that it would be in the spell descripton, since there is no mention in the individual words that it does, when the duration is instantaneous the spell comes and goes in an instant.

No.

It's the exact contrary: the default duration of an instantaneous spell is "forever"; if it's not, it's indicated in the description.

Flesh to Stone

The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.

Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.

No mention of any duration. Flesh to stone lasts forever.

Wish

Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

No mention of any duration. this instantaneous effect lasts forever.

Sound Burst

You blast an area with a tremendous cacophony. Every creature in the area takes 1d8 points of sonic damage and must succeed on a Fortitude save to avoid being stunned for 1 round. Creatures that cannot hear are not stunned but are still damaged.

The damages last forever; the stun effect lasts only for 1 round.

Awaken

You awaken a tree or animal to human-like sentience.

[...]

An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal).

[...]

No mention of any duration. The benefit, including abilities inscrease, lasts forever.

Wall of Stone

This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces.

[...]

No mention of any duration. The wall lasts forever.

Create Water

This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large—possibly creating a downpour or filling many small receptacles. This water disappears after 1 day if not consumed.

the water lasts for 1 day.

Create Undead

A much more potent spell than animate dead, this evil spell allows you to infuse a dead body with negative energy to create more powerful sorts of undead: ghouls, ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. The type or types of undead you can create are based on your caster level, as shown on the table below.
Caster Level Undead Created
11th or lower Ghoul
12th–14th Ghast
15th–17th Mummy
18th or higher Mohrg

You may create less powerful undead than your level would allow if you choose. Created undead are not automatically under the control of their animator. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creature as it forms.

This spell must be cast at night.

No mention of any duration. The undead lasts forever.

Planar Binding, Lesser

Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell's range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

[...]

If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete through its own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free (with the same chance to resist as when it was trapped).

[...]

No mention of any duration for the trap: it can lasts forever (eg you don't make any proposition). Max 1 day/CL for the task.

...

You can look at every single core spell: your interpretation doesn't make any sense. Mine does make sense. Seriously, I can't see how someone can argue something that is proven false by every core spell.

Or maybe I'm not wrong, and you're deliberately trying to interpret a rule in such a way that you get a 9th-level effect (wish, permanent undispellable ability score increase) out of a 2nd-level spell.

It's not a 9th-level effect. Enhancement bonus vs inherent bonus. Permanent enhancement bonus to a stat are nothing special.

Anyway, you're arguing that the spell doesn't work like any instantaneous core spell (eg flesh to stone, planar binding) because otherwise it would be overpowered? Really?

"How the rules work" and "being overpowered" are completely different issues. Slumber and ice tomb are overpowered, and work like any other supernatural ability; eg, a golem who fail his save against ice tomb is unconscious. More precisely, that's because they work like any other supernatural hex that they are overpowered, and that's because the instantaneous WoP work like any other instantaneous spell that they are overpowered.

Pretending the contrary is just a fallacy, or a delusion: "everything's perfect in Pathfinder, we create perfect rules. Because when something is overpowered, we just have to say "it's not overpowered, this thing follows different rules for no raison, we didn't write those rules because it's obvious"". Huh, it's oberoni at the power 10.

. I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that there may be some builds that make him a better fighter than the fighter, but I'm not aware of them and I think they'd probably require some character investment that would detract from his versatility.

Fighting is about versatility.

The fighter is good for one and only one fighting scenario: there's a visible monster within reach. Because his numbers are higher than anyone else.

That's great, but, huh, anyone can do damages. Bards can do a fair amount of damages, even if it's less than a fighter. Now, let's compare two party.

Monks [...] are certainly the most mobile characters in the game.

Aha. Oho.

Sorry, it can't be helped when I read "Monk are mobile".

Enhancement bonus to base speed; "enhancement" means it doesn't stack with anything: until level 12, a monk is slower than a barbarian with haste. And after that level, a monk doesn't fly. Which makes his base speed irrelevant. Meh.

Well, let's talk about his mobility before level 10. In a world where haste, phantom steed, and mounted martial characters don't exist, of course. The monk has the highest base speed ever. And what does he do after moving? A single attack at 3/4 BAB for 1d10 damages? A manoeuvre, if the target isn't too large, can be targeted by by the manoeuvre of the monk, and hasn't too much defenses? What is the point of being rapidly in position if you can't do anything relevant? The barbarian moves only at 40 feet per round, but when he swings his greatsword after moving, peoples are dying.

I fail to see how the monk is "the most mobile class". When I imagine a "mobile character who make other melee better", I imagine at least a bard with a phantom steed, haste, inspire courage, and a pointy stick.

They are very defensive against casters and if built for grappling RUIN a caster based encounter.

There's a wizard, Togomor, in the 12-th AP; level 15 (FP 14). Overland fly, quicken invisibility, greater invisibility, quicken DimDoor, Contingency: stoneskin. I didn't create him to counter the monk, he's an actual NPC, the PCs actually fight him in an actual AP.

It's a caster-based encounter, but I can't see anything that a 14th level monk can do against him. Even a monk built for grappling. Even with surprise, he escape the grapple with a the quicken DimDoor ends the grapple and allow Togomor to buff himself and come back.

When I imagine a mage killer, I imagine at least a bard with see invisibility, dispel magic and blindness/deafness. And a flying phantom steed at high level.

caster-martial disparity thread is that way

<----------------------------------

True. This thread is the monk-martial disparity thread.

Anyway, someone in the C-M D thread is arguing that melee druids aren't full caster. I can probably argue that bards aren't caster at all.

Ravingdork wrote:

The rules lay in those of instantaneous durations. The magic from fireballs creates fire and then quickly dissipates. The burns the fire creates, however, do not go away with the magic. The magic of an instantaneous bull's strength would increase strength, then the magic would go away, leaving behind the result of increased strength.

The logic between the two examples is identical.

Except

"there is no magic here anymore, but the burns from the magic fire somehow still persists"
and
"there is no magic here anymore, but the enhanced strength from your magic strength spell somehow still persists"
require different levels of logic--the second one requires you to be incredibly obtuse as to how magic works.

This.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

[...]
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

Maybe those who think that wish can permanently increase an ability score are incredibly obtuse at how magic works.

Or maybe you're wrong.

Open the boot of your car, see that spare wheel? Is it useless? I mean, it's not attached to an axle, it has no power to it - it's not even in contact with the road! Useless, right? Not if you lose another one it isn't.

You mean that the role of the monk is to wait until some real PC dies? Uh, great role.

Anyway, how is he better at this "role" than any real class?

Very often they are able to bring a few unique (if non-essential) abilities to the party in addition. They will never be as good as the specialists at what the specialists do - that's why the specialists are specialists, of course - but that does not mean that they are by any means useless.

You are aware that bards are better than specialist at social interaction? (lot of skills, Cha-based sense motive, charm, glibness...)

You are aware that bards are better than specialist at sneaking ? (lot of skills, alter self, invisibility - or invisibility sphere - , sculpt sound, low-range scrying, DimDoor...)

Druids are better than specialists at fighting and sneaking, magus are better than specialists at fighting, mobility and skills, etc.

In pathfinder, a class can be a jack-of-all-trade AND be a specialist at the same time. What does a "5th wheel" (aka "a class weaker than non-specialist in all area") adds to the group? Why would you use a monk as a 5th wheel instead of a real wheel like a magus, a bard or a ranger?

People who get things done by getting other people to do them (ex. cult leaders, psychological warfare ops, grifters, terrorists, politicians, etc.) are high charisma types. Are these otherwrldly beings going to be more interested in james Dobson, Patricia Pulling, Jim Jones, etc. or in Stephen Hawking, John von Neumann, etc.? Is that being going to be more interested in Al Gore (high Int) or Bill Clinton (high charisma)? Ronald Reagan (high charisma) or George Bush Sr. (high int)? George Bush the lesser (high charisma) or Dick Chenney (high int)? Is that otherworldly being going to be more interested in leaders of men (high charisma) or political advisors (high int)? The otherworldly being is going to be more interested in the leaders of men.

O_o

o_O

Your post is even more epic than the post of the barbarian. "George W Bush made a pact with Chtuluh. Your argument is invalid".

...

Wait, you were serious?

I'll confine my monk role comments to what I've seen out of PF, and try to leave 3.0/5 baggage out of it. In my game, after the first 4 players covered the usual bases (fighter, rouge, divine, arcane), we added a 5th player, and he thought Monk would be a good 5th wheel class alternative to the obvious bard choice(I don't necessarily subscribe to the tradition party model, but my players do).

Are you aware that saying "this class is a good 5th wheel" is just the nice way to say "this class is useless"?

The game is designed to around the 4-PC-party; such a party should be able to handle any kind of challenge. A PC who can only be added to a party which can already do anything, is basically a useless PC.

BTW, the bard is far from a 5th wheel. As a character who's better at fighting than fighter and better at scouting than rogue, the bard is more like a 1st wheel.

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I can't think of a single thing that a monk can do and that a magus can't do better. Magus are better fighter's sidekick (enlarge, bull's strength, haste...), better mobility (expeditious retreat, phantom steed, fly, haste, force hook charge+full attack, teleport+full attack...), better at manoeuvre (true strike, enlarge/monstrous physique), better AC and survivability, better at skills (Int as secondary stat and familiar - aka "free vigilance, free +3 in any skill, and double perception check")... And magus isn't one of the most powerful class.

The stats roll are 2x18, 17, 16, 15, 14.

With this roll, a monk could work. A kensai is far better.

I would use the falcata instead of the katana (with diminished spellcasting and without spell recall, "crit threat 15-20 for touch spells" won't come into play often).

Let's settle on the fact that the VoP is a RP option that makes sense perhaps in low-magic games and be off toward other monkish fare.

The whole monk is a RP option that make sense perhaps in NPC-class-powered games.

So what happens to all of the summoner's good creatures when your opponent casts protection from good?

Protection from good prevents Good summons from attacking. The majority of summons are celestial animals, which aren't Good : protection from good doesn't do anything.

The DM is using all RAW.

No.

Must suck to have a GM hostile to your character.

Indeed.

You are correct, but it is not only a change from 3.5 it's one that doesn't sit well with people.. thus the resistance you're seeing here and the disbelief.

In 3.5, there were no real rules for ability penalty, and under the interpretation "Str penalty affects encumbrance", ray of enfeeblement was a die-no-save spell. Maybe it's a great game-design, but maybe it's not.

Anyway, the origin of this discussion is someone who explained that if a PC dumps Str, he would let the PC do, and then bones him. Thus, I was mentioning that it doesn't work as he want, because that what I would do at a table: if the DM allows dump stats, then the DM allows dump stats, he shouldn't invent some rule to screw the character afterward: if he doesn't want any dump stat, he should simply say "no ability under 10" at the beginning. The DM can try to disbelieve what's clearly written in the book, but he only creates a rule to bone a PC he accepted in the first place.

and anyway, that's (again) a houserule which screw the Fighter in favor of the Druid (and other class witch don't need many stuff), then hey... Even if you like this houserule, you should forget it as soon as possible (except if you plan to play without any non-caster).

Encumbrance is based off your carried weight compared to your strength on the table. If you have a 21 str, and you put on a belt of physical might +4, your str is 25, and your encumbrance is then based off your current strength (no need to wait 24 hours, the rule is to compare your weight on the table based on str, not permanent str). Encumbrance isn't part of the permanent/non-permanent addition/loss. It's strictly a row on the encumbrance table, which determines your current encumbrance level. Mule Cords add +8 to your str for purposes of looking up numbers on this table. A MW backpack adds one for purposes of looking up on this table. If you have Bull's Strength, you gain +4 for looking up on the table. If you have lost 10 pts of str, you are down 10 lines on the table.

People keep treating encumbrance like it's a statistic. It's not. Your encumbrance is a state of being, just like exhaustion, dazed, and any other state that might negatively affect your character. As such, it's not listed under the effects of str bonus/loss. Because it is not a character stat, it's a status that fluctuates based on your load and str.

You should read the rules. Str damage don't change your Str score: if you have a base Strength of 21 and take 6 point of Strength damages, you now have a Strength of 21 and 6 point of Strength damages. And you look at the same line of the table with or without the Str damages, since your Strength score didn't change.

Your Strength score change only with drain and permanent bonus. Damage, penalty and temporary bonus don't change it, they instead increase an other gauge.

It's not even weird or hard to understand, since it's the same with non-lethal HP damage: taking non-lethal damage don't change your current HP, it instead increase another gauge.

Oh, and that's not JJ's ruling. That's only the rules in the book, that's the second sentence explaining ability damages:

Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

Again, there's nothing to argue: me right you wrong.

Anyway, you can houserule as you want. If you ask me, it's far too much bookkeeping.
"I cleave the two monsters !
- Have you 13 strength with your penalty ?
- D'oh. I commit suicide and roll for a wizard !"
"I cast enlarge on Bob !
- OK. Bob, you lose TWF."
etc.

I'm not clear on why you would ever take Stand Still over Trip?

Because of flat immunities.

In think half of the bestiary is immune to trip (even more if you play a Small character), because they are too large, they don't have legs or they fly. There are probably some other ways to be trip-immune. Nothing is "stand still-immune".

How do you figure? All right, I'll grant you that spellblade is pretty sad, even without infinite 0-level touch spells, but the Staff Magus doesn't give up spellstrike.

Because this combo is more efficient than TWF until high level, and the two options don't stack (spell combat don't allow TWF; a staff magus must use his staff one-handed while using spell combat, the athane can't be use as a secondary weapon while using spell combat).

Ya...I wouldn't allow that. It's pretty obvious abuse. Arcane Mark isn't a touch "attack" spell. Not that my assessment has any rules backing, just GM fiat.

I won't argue that (though the spell has a range of touch, and indicate the effect on a creature), but I will simply say that a magus can add touch of fatigue in his spellbook. Which is a level 0 touch attack spell.

If not, you can REALLY piss people off by putting your mark on them

Initially, that's the only thing I wanted to do: put my mark on people. But it seems that it's not only cool: it's efficient, and it renders the two "two weapons archetypes" (staff magus, spellblade) useless.

Let's take a level 2 magus with Arcane mark, Str 18, a longsword, and named Zorro.

He uses Spell combat to cast Arcane mark; since Arcane mark is a touch spell, he use Spellstrike to deliver it. Assuming he success the Concentration check, does his attack sequence becomes: +3 (1d8+4)/+3 (1d8+4) ? Effectively copying two-weapon fighting and double slice ?

Strength controls how much you can lift and thus determines at what point you become encumbered.

There's nothing to argue; that's the rules from the core rulebook.

Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain

[...]
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage
[...]
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.

Do you see any mention of encumbrance ? Me right you wrong.

RAI: I would include carry capacity in the list of items to gain benefits/ take penalties from temporary effects.

RAI, they simplified the effect of ability damage to reduce the bookkeeping, and avoid the need of one-hour-computation each time someone cast Ray of enfeeblement or Touch of fatigue.

RAI, Str damages don't affect encumbrance.

Arguing otherwise would be equivalent to arguing that increases to strength do not increase carrying capacity.

An example would be the Mule Chords mentioned above. They grant a +8 bonus to strength strictly for the purpose of determining encumbrance.

You have at best proved that Mule Chords don't work. I would be impressed if everything worked as intended in Pathfinder, but that's not the case. eg (in relation with ability damages): the blight hex does 1 Str damage per day (or 1 Con, or 1 whatever, don't remember); according to the rules, 1 Str damage doesn't do anything, and the creature heal 1 point per day. Therefore, the blight hex doesn't do anything by itself, and is even weaker than an effect which "prevent the target to naturally heal Str damages". I don't think it's intended, but that's how the hex works.

But anyway, isn't the mule chord an item ? Items gives permanents bonus after 24 h. Permanent Str bonus affect encumbrance (as well as Str drains).

As soon as they get the exhausted condition, I ask them what their encumbrance is. Exhaustion is not a difficult condition to inflict. With a str of 1, even their clothing is more than what they are capable of lifting.

Str penalties don't affect encumbrance.

No, I noticed that. I still think it would be useful in cases where your main attack only hits on an 18+, say; your second attack would only hit on a 20, anyways.

Huh ?!?

If you hit a CR-appropriate foe on a 18+ only with your first attack, what are you doing at melee range ? And why did you bother to take such a melee feat in the first place ?

If the CR is overwhelming, I fail to see how a crappy +4 can save you.

After reading that, it's certainly not in the same league as Elephant Stomp (incoherent) or Extra Cantrips or Orisons (obsolete). A +4 (or better) bonus to attack and damage is nothing to sneeze at

You say that because you didn't see the conditions:

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Against a creature of size Large or larger, you
can make a single melee attack as a full-round action, [...]

In other words: "if you totaly can do two attacks, don't, and get a crappy bonus instead of an attack". Even without the clause "get a free blow coz you like it", the feat is bad. With this clause, it's total crap.

THERE ARE TREES WHO DIED TO PRINT THIS FEAT, and it make me very sad.

magus 15, can't really get the most out off it since it gets dimension door late, but is otherwise a simple effective build on it's own merrit

Magus don't need the feat. As I pointd out in another thread, at level 15 they are the absolute kings of dimensional skirmish.

With spell perfection, quicken spell and spell combat, their sequence is Teleport-full attack-teleport back. That's a full attack at a distance of 1 500 miles. Add Greater invisibility for lot of fun.

Anyway :
* wizard 7/fighter 1/EK 7: can begin the chain at level 7, dervish at 11.
* summoner, synthesist flavor: the same.
* summoner, other flavor: the same, but poor melee capability.
* sorcerer 8/fighter 1/EK 6: can begin the chain at level 9, dervish at 13.
* anyone who takes rank in Geography and Endurance 6/horizon walker 3/anything 6 : can begin the chain at level 9, dervish at 13. Yeah, it means that any commoner with the right selection of skill, feat and PrC is better than a straight monk for this trick.
* bard 15: can begin the chain at 11, dervish at 15.
* magus 15: the same, but he doesn't need it.

Then take the first feat of the chain at level 11. It allows you to use your remaining actions after a dim door; in conjunction with spell combat, your remaining action is a full attack: it's a bit weaker than dim dervish, but it does the trick.

Or play a summoner-synthesist instead of a magus; you access to dimdoor at level 7, and access to dim dervish at 11.

So does anyone else have any ideas on how to make my spellstriking teleporting dream come to fruition?

Simply use teleport and spell combat at level 13. No feat involved.

Well, it has its use when you're facing a giant who have between 244 and 263 HP, with a friend who took butterfly's sting and did a crit, and...

Meh... According to my definition, a feat "has its use" if it comes into play at least once in the whole campaign.

I guess some of those feats really are worse than Death and Glory, though by a small margin. D&G has a slight advantage over a full attack if your enemy is a single hit away from falling AND you would die next round anyway.

Except the feat has the requirement: "you could totally attack your opponent at least twice". And the effect: "by abandoning all your attacks except one, you get a small bonus (and if that attack doesn't kill your opponent, you die)".

Even without the "you die" clause, the feat would be total crap: you have a better chance to kill him with your normal full-attack sequence than with only one attack and a small bonus. And if you don't, you're not a melee-er, then why did you bother to take this feat in the first place ?

Anyway, without a weapon in hand, you don't threaten, and thus you don't get any AoO. The ability doesn't work.

If one only considers the content in the Core Rules, the distinction is fairly clear-cut, I think.

Huh ?!?

Let's take a very simple capacity : "not provoking an AoO".

In core rules, it can be a skill (Acrobatics), it can be a feat (improved [random manoeuvre]), it can be *something else* (Casting defensively). And maybe we can find a case where it is a class ability.

Even in core-only, I'm completely unable to understand what special capacity should be a class ability, a feat, a skill effect, or something else. If a player ask me "I want my character to cease provoking while firing with his bow; can you create some capacity to handle this?", I'm unable to decide if I should create a feat, a PrC, if I should include this in a skill, if I should use an existing class ability (should it be a rogue talent ?), or something else...

Stéphane Le Roux wrote:

Umbral Reaver wrote:

What's that from?

Ultimate combat.

The feat allow you to go into the square of an opponent against whom you made a successful stunning fist. You gain +4 AC against that opponent. And when the "stun" condition ends, the opponent can go away using a 5-foot-step. Oh, you can do an AoO, but since you're a monk, you miss.

Or a fatigued target, or sickened, or staggered, or blinded or deafened, or paralyzed...

Oh yes, you also have +4 AC against a paralyzed opponent. Sounds much better.

@Atarlost: at least fleet doesn't have two feat as a pre-req. and in order to add insult to injury, one of the two feat is useless (it add some nice bonus to Climb, but since you must be level 8, who cares about climbing ?).

At least, those feat don't harm you (as opposed to death or glory or caustic slur).

Oh, and there's a feat named sling flail. If you take it, it allow you to use your sling as a flail, and it has a better effect if you don't take it: it allow you to do lame puns like "this feat is more useless than sling fail".

What's that from?

Ultimate combat.

The feat allow you to go into the square of an opponent against whom you made a successful stunning fist. You gain +4 AC against that opponent. And when the "stun" condition ends, the opponent can go away using a 5-foot-step. Oh, you can do an AoO, but since you're a monk, you miss.

Monkey shine gives a +4 bonus to AC. Against a stunned opponent only.

Magus 15
Spell perfection: teleportation
Quicken spell
Other magus' stuff

The magus is at home, drinking tea with his friends. Suddenly, he wants to kill someone.
[some random buffs like haste and greater invisibility]
Full-round action : Spell combat; teleportation at 1 500 miles, full attack.
Swift action: teleportation, quicken thanks to spell perfection. He's back at home before the end of the round.

6-second 1 500 miles-round trip, full attack included: spring attack, you should be ashamed.

Now I just need some way to get infinite teleportation (or at least, many of them). Echoing the first TP is a good start, but the quicken TP can't be echoed.

I've never run into this in the various groups I've DMed but remember, Bluff is an opposed check and Circumstance modifiers need to be applied.

Even if the PC has a great roll Bluffing the guard that the PC is the King's brother, the guard may have a significant Circumstance modifier that helps his Sense Motive.

You may have an awesome Bluff, I may tell my Players, but the NPC's gonna likely get a +10 or something on his Sense Motive -- HE'S A GUARD!

The base DC of the diplomacy check is 30 (15 indifferent, +15 "give aid that could result in punishment").

Even if the lie is unbelievable (-20) and the guard has +10 Sense Motive, it's easier to success the Bluff check than the Diplomacy check if you have 10 more points in Bluff. And you should have 11 more in Bluff if your DM allow Bluff to bypass the need of Diplomacy (and anyway, there's a spell that add 20 to your Bluff, and nothing for Diplomacy).

In other words: you're a well-known minister of the king, you have a high Bluff and no Diplomacy, and you want to see the king; but he has forbidden the throne room to anyone. You have better time saying that you're the king's father, or his brother or son, or his jester, or anything except the truth: that you have to see him as a minister. I'm asking for a confirmation about this nonsensical fact.

A very popular opinion is that Bluff can improve NPC's attitude and make them do what the PC wants.
eg : a character want to enter in the throne room:
Guard: nobody can enter!
Character: I'm the king's brother!
Guard: I totally believe you. You may enter.

For me, it's logically inconsistent: only Diplomacy and Intimidate can improve attitude, not Bluff. If you allow Bluff to do the same, you end with absurd situations like this:
A character, who happens to be the hidden brother of the king, want to enter the throne room:
Guard: nobody can enter!
Character: I'm the king's broth...
Other PCs: STOP! You suck at Diplomacy.
Character: You're right. I'm here to kill the King.
Guard: I totally believe you. You may enter.

It seems inconsistent, but it seems also to be the way the majority of the players handle Bluff; therefore, I ask for a clarification...

# How does magic "work" in your world?

# What in-character descriptions do you use to get your head around Pathfinder magic?

In my world, magic works essentially like in yours. Except that I don't impose any fluff to casters : I assume all casters have different interpretation, and that's why they have to decipher scrolls and spellbooks.

When I have to explain the system to a player : "it's like a crossbow; you first load the crossbow. Then you can shot at any time. And if you want to shot again, you must reload. Your character can have his own interpretation of this mechanics, but he knows that he have to prepare a spell before casting it, and he knows that he can only prepare a limited number of spells."

When I play a spellcaster, I generally assume that I warp the weave around me to store my spells; I can then unwarp it with some words and gestures, and the movement of the weave create some effect. Warping the weave is generally longer than unwarping it: the warping process consist of giving it the form I want, and adding a "knot", some constraint to prevent the weave from unwarp; then I have just to remove the "knot" and the weave unwarp on its own.

The weave only accept limited deformations; as I gain levels, I don't warp it more and more: but I am more precise. A very small deformation is sufficient to create a time stop... But it's also a very precise manipulation. As a level 1 wizard, I warp the weave more to store an enlarge person than a powerfull mage warp it to store a time stop, because I don't understand well how the weave react; I pick a small thread of the weave, but all the weave comes with it... But with experience, I understand how to pick only the thread I need.

After I cast the spell, the weave unwarp rapidly... But not totally. It have to relax a bit before I can store a new effect in it.

Final though : the rules don't use the word "memorization". "Memorization" is a remain of AD&D 2 (and previous editions) : since 3e, casters "prepare" spells, they don't "memorize" anything. It's more Zelaznyan that Vancian (the crunch is the same, but the fluff is different).

Excuse me for my poor English... (I'm not even sure that "warp", as in "warp wood", is the word I need)

Well no.

She could use Ki. Ninjas do not have to be asian. She could for instance be a fate bound assassin using mystical techniques inspired by the thanatosic traditions of indea, greece and ancient celtic myth.

Great, i'll play a Greek ninja whith his traditional weapon like kama, katana, nunchaku, sai, shuriken, siangham, and wakizashi. "Fear the wrath of Hades' nunchaku !"

Oh, wait. Maybe there will be a ninja archetype which change the weapons proficiencies ? Then I'll use a variant class with variant weapon just to have the rogue talents I want, with an archetype of greek assassin which give me back the weapons I want. Or maybe the greek assassin will have his own variant class, because the myths around rogue, ninja, and greek assassin are not the same ?

Does merisiel use Ki to throw a cloud of knives? or does she rather use skill to throw several knifes?

What's the difference ?

Hunter x hunter doesn't use Ki, it use Nen. Should we entirely rewrite the class for this setting, changing the word "ki" with "nen" ?

I think a better game design is to make a generic power available to any rogue, and to adapt the fluff depending of the power source (be it skill, ki, nen or instinct).

Find me an existing fictional stereotype that indulged in gratuitous volumes of thrown projectiles in short timeframe.

Merisiel.

Seeker, not all the Ninja Tricks are appropriate for other rogues thematically.

could you be more specific ? How can you say that some tricks aren't inappropriate to fit thematically my rogue ?

If you speak about balance issue, I can understand you. But I don't understand how you can say that an ability isn't appropriate thematically, except if you know every rogue concept in the world.

In the APG, there are some magic-like rage powers for the barbarian. the APG doesn't create subclass or the like: if the power is thematically appropriate for your barbarian, you take it, if it isn't, you don't. I don't think anybody needs a "thematically-appropriate-police" to do this.

Because the fiction that surounds Ninja is different from that which surrounds western rogue figures. Because thematically they are different, just like their is a thematic difference between a random folk hero with a sword(fighter) and a monastic knight(paladin). Because refecting thematic difference is the entire point of classes.

I fail to understand your reasoning.

By opening the access of the ninja's talent to any rogue, you don't prevent a ninja to take those talents. You only allow more choice for rogues (and ninjas, since they should as well be able to take any rogue talent); you allow them to have the flavor of a ninja, or of a mystic rogue, or of anything else.

Eg, it would allow a player to play a shadowdancer without the need of the whole prestige class mechanic. Since I hate the prestige class mechanic, it's a gain for me. Since it doesn't remove the PrC mechanic for those who like it, it's not a loss for them. And since it allows you to select only ninja-like abilities, I fail to see your concern.

And personally I see less thematic difference between a mystic rogue (minor magic, major magic, and similar talents) and a ninja than between a core ranger and a shapeshifter ranger.

Your comparison with barbarian miss the point. When I play a raging Matsu in Rokugan, which class do you think I use ? Hint : not the Samouraï. All I need are rage power with Matsu flavor, I don't care that the class has a japanese or a greek name (or a greek name with a nordic concept).

Sure, in a standard party it isn't a huge deal, as it is usable 4,5,6 times a day? (Still pretty nifty). However,I am Running Kingmaker, and the Witch (Lvl 6) can cast it all day, 6 times a minute, 360 times an hour... In a game with armies, this is a HUGE ability. Basically, he can walk around like a Messiah, healing everyone that he meets. That's Cure Mod for over 2,000 soldiers in an 8 hour day?

A cleric's channel ability affects 96 squares; since they're not in combat, there can be 4 soldiers per square. Therefore, a cleric can easily heal 384 soldiers per round, and at level 6 he should have 7 or 8 channel per day (that's more than 2 500 soldiers per day, without nasty tricks like a platform system to get soldiers in the area above and below the cleric)...

It will be very difficult to use Intimidate to create the Shaken condition for more than 2-3 rounds since you have to beat your opponent's check by 5 for each additional round of effect. Even if you can stack the affect to force the frightened condition, that condition is unlikely to persist for more than 2 rounds at which point the target is back to shaken and ceases to flee.

It's not that difficult for an inquisitor :

Total : 2.5*level+3+Cha (without any feat or spell). The DC is only 10+level+Sag...

Using only the core, a cleric can also have quite a good score...

Both Weapon Specialization and this new feat have essentially the same prereq, namely 4th level fighter. You can't take both at the same level unless your 4th fighter level is also an odd level, thus giving you two feats to spend.

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