Sean Bean heads cast for HBO's A Game of Thrones


Television

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CBDunkerson wrote:
but I don't see how that would make Arya any less a failure (from the religion's PoV) as well.

Yeah. Arya would still be more of a failure. Have to admit, seeing her get stabbed did bring a smile of satisfaction to my face.

It'll undoubtedly go away next week, when her plot armor kicks into overdrive and we find out that StabbedArya wasn't realArya, or some other bit of ridiculous canon fanwank to protect Arya. But at least I get a week of pretending that Arya is bleeding out. :D


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It's some kind of ruse. Arya throwing that kind of money to book passage to Westeros would not have gone unnoticed. Then she went to a non-public place where she could easily be attacked. Then walked through a crowded market, seemingly not long for this world with a gut wound.

There's more here than meets the eye, which is the way of the many faced god.


Yeah...I think this is some part of trick on Arya's part.

Also the waif enjoyed that far far too much. Which is also a big no no. I wouldn't be surprised if Jaquen knew the entire time that Arya was going to eventually leave, and all of this wasn't just a set up to test the Waif.


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Kryzbyn wrote:
Don't think they've shown Vaes Dothrak in the opening credits since season 1...

They showed Vaes Dothrak twice this season (season 6).

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Posting this someone posted on the io9 recap:

Spoiler:
I posted this elsewhere but will copy

It wasn’t Arya it was Jaqen wearing her face

1. Walked like Jaqen, wore hair parted down the middle, threw the coin with the right hand (Arya is left handed)

2. Was too obvious. Arya would have never asked for a cabin. The money was thrown around too casually, even if she was capable of stealing such a sum.

3. Lingering shot of statue on the bridge, maybe sorry to leave. Arya hasn’t been there that long, doesn’t have a particular fondness for the place. Could have stowed away as a cabin boy too easily

4. Jaqen’s life belongs to her. He promised her 3 lives to take for the Red God. He took 2, then she named him as her 3rd. Instead of dying he bargained and agreed to help her escape but then when he left he gave her the coin and told her to come to Braavos. And he gave her the words Valar Morghulis, all men must die. Knowing what we know about their relationship with death there would have been no bargain really. He believes in death

His life is owed to the Red God. No bargain can change his fate and he knows it. He willingly dies in Arya’s place, wearing her face, to fulfill the contract on his own life. He also was testing the Waif who did not fulfill the contract correctly by doing a belly wound instead of killing quickly. Waif is going to go out before he is gone officially. Scenes from next week show Waif running/ chasing possible real Arya


I think they also showed it in the first few episodes of season 2, before Dani, Jorah etal reached Qarth.


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Lemmy wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
It'd be amazing if what happened to Frakengregor is that he was turned into a white walker...that somehow Qyburn figured out how to do that.

It doesn't display any of the characteristics of the White Walkers other than not talking, though... We can even see its non-blue eyes through the slit of its armor in the series. And in the books, there's nothing undead about the WW (as far as we know). Their ghoulish appearance is show-only.

Also, it's much cooler if he's a different sort of horror.

Spoiler:
Except Benjen Stark's the Brother Beyond the Wall's eyes weren't blue either, and we know he's undead.
Lemmy wrote:

Wouldn't it be funny it Tommen died by the hands of "Robert Strong"?

Maybe he loses patience with Cersei after she offends Margaery, the faith and/or the High Sparrow, then hits her... Prompting "Robert Strong" to retaliate... With the full strength of an undead mountain. Then Jaime hears about this and kills her, fulfilling Maggy's prophecy.

Spoiler:
Cersei has already decided that she is choosing Trial by Combat with the Mountain as her champion. The High Sparrow isn't dumb, and has to have already figured this out. We've all been expecting CleganeBowl, but Sandor looks to be busy for the foreseeable future dealing with the Brothers Without Banners. The High Sparrow needs to break Cersei's last bit of power. But wait, what if he could manipulate someone into fighting the Mountain:

.

Scenario 1) What if HS chooses someone within his power, completely broken and malleable, eager for redemption or release from this cruel world? Someone highly-trained in combat, perhaps someone who even bested the Mountain once before at a tourney?

What if it's the Mountain vs.... Ser Loras? Either outcome, the High Sparrow wins.

- or -

Scenario 2) What if HS chooses someone within his influence, someone young and naive and too trusting? Someone new to the faith, desperate to protect his wife and mother, and too eager to grasp at an end to the hostilities? Someone eager to prove himself as a peacemaker? Someone whose uncle was recently conveniently banished sent away with his deadly mercenary? No he may not have fighting skills, but "Surely Cersei would have her champion stand down against him," he is reassured by the High Sparrow. "This is how we finally reach Cersei and start her toward true redemption, through her love as a mother."

What if it's the Mountain vs.... King Tommen? Gee Cersei, are you 100% certain the Mountain will obey you to stand down from a fight? Either outcome, the High Sparrow wins.


Kryzbyn wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
The opening animation always reflects where the scenes in the episodes are

Except the opening credit sequence doesn't have anything to do with the locations shown in that exact episode. Otherwise the credits for "The Watchers on the Wall" would have been pretty bland.

The show does have a tenancy to end almost every episode either focused on Danny or Arya...the two characters who I'm most bored with.

It reflects more the whole season than the episode, actually...

Arya's been quite boring in this season... Last episode was the first one that made me have any interest on what she might do next.

Yup, it's kind of a mix, it doesn't show every location, usually just the most prominent (geographically, not story) location in the region where action is taking place. It always shows King's Landing, Winterfell, the Wall and wherever Dany is. Other locations change depending on the episode though, like the Iron Islands drops in an out.
Don't think they've shown Vaes Dothrak in the opening credits since season 1...

Blood of my Blood (ep 6) included Vaes Dothrak, and was the only episode this season to do so (so far).


@Zombie Pizza Delivery Girl

Spoiler:
Zombie Pizza Delivery Girl wrote:
Except Benjen Stark's the Brother Beyond the Wall's eyes weren't blue either, and we know he's undead.

He's undead... But not a White Walker. WW aren't undead in the books, and seemingly, not even in the show (they are some sort of corrupted/transmuted humans).

Also, I wasn't really trying to guess how Tommen will die... I just thought it'd be tragically ironic if it was Cersei's fault.


@ZombiePDG: Scenario 1 would be quite interesting. I don't believe there is any possibility of Scenario 2 playing out. That person is grossly unsuited for trial by combat for more than one reason.


Damon Griffin wrote:
I don't believe there is any possibility of Scenario 2 playing out. That person is grossly unsuited for trial by combat for more than one reason.

If this was the book we were discussing, then yes, I'd totally agree with you. But showrunners D&D seem quite willing to take big liberties with characterization... I think #2 is unlikely, but I can't completely rule it out.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Grossly unsuited and under the thumb of a zealot are not mutually exclusive. The King, Champion of the Seven, purity of the Faith Embodied on Planetos, takes up the Sword of the Warrior (in this case, Widow's Wail), and lets the gods guide his hand against his sinner mother's unholy abomination. He would be executing the Stranger's vengeance upon this creature brought back from beyond death, and would be acting for both the Smith and the Father, forging a hard but true justice against the sin polluting the annals of the Red Keep. King Tommen, First of His Name, Champion of the Faith.

Though personally I still think it will be Loras.


BTW, is there any limitation to the "Trial by Combat" thing? What's stopping someone like the Mountain to do whatever they want and then demand a "Trial by Combat"? He could literally kill the king, shout "Trial by Combat!", then kill whoever he faces in combat and then be declared innocent. :P

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Other than the Mountain not being able to talk due to being reanimated flesh, valid point!


archmagi1 wrote:
Other than the Mountain not being able to talk due to being reanimated flesh, valid point!

Well... That's why I said "someone like the Mountain". Imagine if a Giant somehow becomes a citizen of the Seven Kingdoms... :P.


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Gregor is brought down by the Faith while the High Sparrow looks on.

HS:Even though we are simple folk, together we can..

(Puts on glasses)

HS:Move Mountains


I could see scenario 1 happening. IN fact I would be surprised if that isn't where they go with that character.

Do not see scenario 2 happening: The Faith would have nothing to gain from Gregorstein killing him (which even the High Sparrow would have to believe is a near certainty), and would suddenly lose their main toehold on power.


I do wonder if the HS suspects Mags on not being so pious. She is perhaps a little too eager to start quoting the scriptures and cutting him off. So...Hmm..


Lemmy wrote:
BTW, is there any limitation to the "Trial by Combat" thing? What's stopping someone like the Mountain to do whatever they want and then demand a "Trial by Combat"? He could literally kill the king, shout "Trial by Combat!", then kill whoever he faces in combat and then be declared innocent. :P

The limit is whether the person with the bigger army cares about your "right" to Trial by Combat. Rickard Stark (Eddard's father) demanded trial by combat, the Mad King declared fire to be his champion.


Irontruth wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
BTW, is there any limitation to the "Trial by Combat" thing? What's stopping someone like the Mountain to do whatever they want and then demand a "Trial by Combat"? He could literally kill the king, shout "Trial by Combat!", then kill whoever he faces in combat and then be declared innocent. :P
The limit is whether the person with the bigger army cares about your "right" to Trial by Combat. Rickard Stark (Eddard's father) demanded trial by combat, the Mad King declared fire to be his champion.

The Mad King was... Well... Mad.

In fact, IIRC, it's even mentioned/implied somewhere that denying someone a trial by combat is not seen with good eyes, i.e.: it might have some serious political repercussions.


Lemmy wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
BTW, is there any limitation to the "Trial by Combat" thing? What's stopping someone like the Mountain to do whatever they want and then demand a "Trial by Combat"? He could literally kill the king, shout "Trial by Combat!", then kill whoever he faces in combat and then be declared innocent. :P
The limit is whether the person with the bigger army cares about your "right" to Trial by Combat. Rickard Stark (Eddard's father) demanded trial by combat, the Mad King declared fire to be his champion.

The Mad King was... Well... Mad.

In fact, IIRC, it's even mentioned/implied somewhere that denying someone a trial by combat is not seen with good eyes, i.e.: it might have some serious political repercussions.

Like a revolt that overthrows your rule, gets your whole family wiped out (almost), and gets you run through by your own guards kind of repercussions!


Lemmy wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
BTW, is there any limitation to the "Trial by Combat" thing? What's stopping someone like the Mountain to do whatever they want and then demand a "Trial by Combat"? He could literally kill the king, shout "Trial by Combat!", then kill whoever he faces in combat and then be declared innocent. :P
The limit is whether the person with the bigger army cares about your "right" to Trial by Combat. Rickard Stark (Eddard's father) demanded trial by combat, the Mad King declared fire to be his champion.

The Mad King was... Well... Mad.

In fact, IIRC, it's even mentioned/implied somewhere that denying someone a trial by combat is not seen with good eyes, i.e.: it might have some serious political repercussions.

My point is that it's all relative. There are numerous variables as to whether you could deny someone trial by combat, there's no magically compelling thing requiring that people honor it. Tyrion demanded his trial, but certainly didn't honor it's outcome. There are no hard and fast rules, just what you can get away with or convince others to let you get away with.


CBDunkerson wrote:
but I don't see how that would make Arya any less a failure (from the religion's PoV) as well.

We don't know much about the religion. From their origins they may have two categories of people they kill: those that want to die and those who have it a commin. IF (and this is a big if) Arya was not SUPPOSED to kill the actress because she didn't deserve it , she passed.

We do know that they have some kind of "pay what you can afford" policy. the waifs background was a "half your wealth" kind of deal, which would put it WAY out of the understudies price range if it was an absolute amount.


Getting a substitution in a Trial by combat is for nobles only.

So if you have a greggor you CAN do pretty much what you want

System working as intended.


archmagi1 wrote:

Posting this someone posted on the io9 recap:

** spoiler omitted **

For this theory to be true, Arya needs to have had her face sliced off.


RE: The HS possibly using Loras as his champion. While Loras did win a joust against Gregor, there's a big difference between a tournament joust and the type of fight that seems to be standard for Trial by Combat. And do we remember how that joust actually ended? If not, I'll give you a bit of a reminder. The Hound was the only thing that stopped Gregor from killing Loras.

Loras vs GregorStein = dead Loras

Of course, dead Loras is almost a certainty, since he's becoming Danny Rand.


Irontruth wrote:
My point is that it's all relative. There are numerous variables as to whether you could deny someone trial by combat, there's no magically compelling thing requiring that people honor it. Tyrion demanded his trial, but certainly didn't honor it's outcome. There are no hard and fast rules, just what you can get away with or convince others to let you get away with.

And I'm precisely asking if there's anything concrete, such as "only high lords have indisputable right to Trial by Combat" or something like that.


Norman Osborne wrote:

RE: The HS possibly using Loras as his champion. While Loras did win a joust against Gregor, there's a big difference between a tournament joust and the type of fight that seems to be standard for Trial by Combat. And do we remember how that joust actually ended? If not, I'll give you a bit of a reminder. The Hound was the only thing that stopped Gregor from killing Loras.

Loras vs GregorStein = dead Loras

How is this a net loss for the High Sparrow? True, Cersei is acquitted, but so what? Her hold over Tommen is greatly weakened, especially now that Jaime is exiled from the capital and Margaery seems to be playing nice with the Faith. We've already seen Loras is broken and just wants his torment to end; dangling him a single ray of hope to die a hero, spiting Cersei, doesn't seem a hard sell. Loras dying in the Trial saves the HS a lot of (but not all) messy unpleasantness from House Tyrell, but it drives a permanent break between the Lannisters and the Tyrells. The Tyrells are already weakened from the capital disasters and from financing the prolonged conflict of the Crown; with the Lannisters all but crippled, the HS may feel he has enough power now to break the Tyrells too. Olenna is already ready to head back to Highgarden and write all this stupidity off. And with Tommen and Margaery isolated from their Houses and under constant close scrutiny from the Faith, it probably wouldn't matter if both Houses went to war with each other... that'd get Mace and Kevan out of his hair too.

So, that just leaves the acquitted Cersei, but she's isolated, nearly powerless, a non-heir to Casterly Rock, and her House heavily in debt. She'd likely try something stupid, which will probably get some rank & file Faithful killed, but such is the will of the Gods.


I wasn't saying it was a loss, but I've seen some people that are convinced that Loras stands a pretty good chance of defeating the Mountain, based on the fact that he won a joust against him.

Liberty's Edge

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it's not outlawed yet


I doubt Loras had any chance against against The Mountain before... I don't think he has one now... Let's keep in mind that not only jousting is very, very different from a melee duel, but also that Loras kinda cheated to defeat the mountain in that joust.

HS has no reason whatsoever to use Tommen... Right now he has the king under his thumb, why would he want to risk that?

Loras... Is a possibility... Although I don't think the HS has all that to gain from that choice.


CapeCodRPGer wrote:
it's not outlawed yet

I'm pretty sure killing people for whatever reason other than self-defense is outlawed unless you specifically have permission for it (e.g.: military, police, etc)... And that "trial by combat" is not even recognized in the US' constitution.


Lemmy wrote:
I doubt Loras had any chance against against The Mountain before... I don't think he has one now...

Oh yeah, Loras in his prime would still be a longshot against the Mountain. Now? Definitely not. But (show) Loras has given up, and a man who wants to die usually finds a way to make it happen.

Lemmy wrote:
Loras... Is a possibility... Although I don't think the HS has all that to gain from that choice.

I think the (show) High Sparrow has reached the point that he's starting to believe he's the smartest guy in King's Landing, and he's getting arrogant. And I think that is going to be his undoing.


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Its not like book loras would have a better chance


archmagi1 wrote:
Grossly unsuited and under the thumb of a zealot are not mutually exclusive. The King, Champion of the Seven, purity of the Faith Embodied on Planetos, takes up the Sword of the Warrior (in this case, Widow's Wail), and lets the gods guide his hand against his sinner mother's unholy abomination. He would be executing the Stranger's vengeance upon this creature brought back from beyond death, and would be acting for both the Smith and the Father, forging a hard but true justice against the sin polluting the annals of the Red Keep. King Tommen, First of His Name, Champion of the Faith.

For about two seconds, after which he's just so much dead meat and the High Sparrow has lost a valuable chess piece.

I mean, unless his entire plan is to summarily eliminate the Crown rather than heavily influence it...in which case, maybe your best option isn't choosing a champion who can't help but lose; doesn't speak well for the power of the gods.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

High Sparrow Spin:

For Tommen to Lose doesn't mean that the gods power is any less, it means that they have Judged Cersei, and found her sins weighed less than the charges. Her walk of atonement laid her shortcomings out for the world to see, and in the end, the gods accepted her penance and she is forgiven. The poor king, ever so vigilant in the faith, gave his life in service to seeing that the gods' justice was proper, and as the trial has shown, the gods never make mistakes. Congratulations, Dowager Queen, the Seven have seen to it you may walk a free woman.

EDIT: And I do think that he wants to oust the monarchy, rather than pawn about.


Norman Osborne wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:

Posting this someone posted on the io9 recap:

** spoiler omitted **

For this theory to be true, Arya needs to have had her face sliced off.

We saw her face on Jaqen's (well, someone's, that is, no one's) dead body in the season 5 finale, though.


Showing up as arya to kill arya sounds like the worst plan ever. its the only face she would KNOW was fake. I mean, i could see showing up as arya to commit a crime, but what good would booking passage for her do?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

He showed up as arya to have waif show her cruelty. Not to kill arya who is waiting in a dark corner using echolocation.


I wonder if Ramsey will try to do another 20 good men raid. No doubt Bear Queen Lyanna will get snatched/killed.


archmagi1 wrote:
He showed up as arya to have waif show her cruelty. Not to kill arya who is waiting in a dark corner using echolocation.

AHHH... Jacquen as arya. That would make sense.


Jacquen as Arya.
Arya as Waif / Crone.

Arya gave Jacquen a mortal wound


I don't think arya can use the masks. She's definitely arya at this point, not no one.


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In the previous episode, Arya is preparing to sleep (or to feign sleep) in a windowless dark room with Needle at the ready, knowing her life is in danger for failing her assassination test.

This episode, we saw Arya confidently out in the daylight, openly asking a captain for passage and throwing around money. Then she is surprised, without any weapon, by the crone-disguised Waif. She escapes, badly wounded, and is last seen bleeding out, staggering through the streets.

Scenario:

Spoiler:
When Arya saved Jaqen H'ghar's life, he told her he needed to take 3 lives to repay the debt to the Red God of the 3 lives she saved. She names The Tickler, and later, Ser Amory Lorch. She intended to have Jaqen kill Tywin as the 3rd, but Tywin has the camp on alert and they need to escape. She names Jaqen as her 3rd live, but says she'll retract his name if he helps her, Hot Pie, and Gendry escape. While Jaqen kills the guards so they can escape, Arya never names a replacement 3rd death. Before he leaves her, Jaqen demonstrates his ability to change his face, seemingly without removing a mask.

While Arya/The Girl is being trained by The Waif in the House of Black and White, Jaqen watches The Waif's anger and viciousness. The Waif later confronts Jaqen in the House of Black and White, explaining The Girl's/Arya's failure to kill her actress target. The Waif angrily demands to kill Arya, even slipping up and referring to herself (The Waif) as "Me." The Waif then ignores Jaqen's command "to kill her quickly" by viciously stabbing Arya in the gut, normally a very slow and painful way to die.

Did Jaqen disguise himself as Arya and take her place in the assassination attempt? He might not need a mask, at least for short duration disguises. After he escapes, he can triage his wounds and wait for The Waif to report to him... where he can confront The Waif for failing her own tests: the order to kill Arya in the manner instructed, failing to kill dispassionately, and failing to expunge (or at least suppress) her own sense of self. Perhaps Jaqen will allow Arya to name The Waif as her 3rd death owed, thus finally repaying her debt to the Red God.

Arya flunks out as a Faceless, and catches a ride back to Westerosi with the actress and her acting troupe.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

I don't think arya can use the masks. She's definitely arya at this point, not no one.

I think she used one when she killed Meryn Trant. On the TV show, obviously; Arya's Braavos experience has now completely diverged from the books.

Regardless, the show hasn't gone into a whole lot of explanation about how it actually works. Sure, we saw maybe-Jaqen removing someone's face, but the first time Jaqen Jaqen changed faces back at the end of season two he didn't put one on, he just sorta did it in the time it took him to start to walk away and then look back over his shoulder.


She did but it made her go blind, probably because she's not a true believer.


i thought that was something they did to her; I can even remember the differences between the books and the show half time any more. :P


Well the show continues to bore me to tears. Probably won't sub to HBO next year just for this. I'm almost to the point I don't care what happens in the last two episodes. But I've already paid for this month.

I'm a fan of the novels but the show really has misfired in my opinion.


Okay, so Arya was just Arya, and when she told Jaqen (ahem, "No one,") that she was Arya Stark of Winterfell, who will return to Westeros, he was just sorta totally fine with that. Alright, that's fine, like I said, we've diverged from the book here.

I liked the interplay between Brienne and Jaime, but, once again, we've diverged from the book here.

As I remember the plot of the books, Dani showing up is just dove-tailing the narrative, but that's not even a real verb.

I was very gratified to see that the Hound was totally cock-blocked on his mission of vengeance by the Brotherhood without Banners. Think there's a chance of LSH showing up?


I thought the writers said that LSH would not make an appearance or did they change their minds?

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