Sean Bean heads cast for HBO's A Game of Thrones


Television

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Lemmy wrote:
Actually... No. That "say in a dark room trying to light candles that never light up" is a standard test for all maesters. Even those who don't study any mystical arts.

Which would just take the magocide to another level. Its the perfect wizard trap. you have a giant library full of books to go "here wizard wizard wizard" and then if you find out they're a wizard you smash them before they hit level 5.


They actually do allow maesters to study magic (represented by a valyrian steel link in their chain)... The Stark's maester did it.

They just think it's a fool's errand, since magic is unreliable and has been "dead" in Westeros for decades. Either way.. So far we have literally zero evidence that anyone knows how to create valyrian steel... closest we get are some smiths who claim to be able to do it.

It's possible GRRM will reveal this to be the case, but so far... No evidence.


Now... It's true that most maesters look down on the study of magic, but they don't forbid it.

In fact, they even have an Archmaester devoted to the subject. Currently the position is occupied by... Merwyn? Marwyn? Some name like that...

Besides... If they could forge valyrian steel, they'd become far more powerful and influential than they already are... So why not do it?


Lemmy wrote:
It's possible GRRM will reveal this to be the case, but so far... No evidence.

The maesters killed the dragons. They have some kind of anti magical conspiracy going there. I think thats a fair bit above no evidence


I hadn't heard that before...interesting.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
It's possible GRRM will reveal this to be the case, but so far... No evidence.
The maesters killed the dragons. They have some kind of anti magical conspiracy going there. I think thats a fair bit above no evidence

Assuming that's actually the case, of course, and not just something Marwyn (Mawryn? Merwyn? I'm going with Marwyn...) said to convince Sam to follow his instructions... It's not like he has a very high opinion of the other grand-maesters either... It's not so much a conspiracy as much as open disdain. Most dragons died fighting other dragons during the Dance of Dragons... Others died at the hands of an angry mob during the storming of the dragonpit. So far, Marwyn is the only person to even hint that maesters were responsible for their extinction.

And that is not an evidence that they know how to forge valyrian steel... It's an evidence that they don't like/trust magic... If anything, it's yet another reason to not study the creation of valyrian steel.

Qyburn was stripped of his chains (not killed) for practices such as vivisection... Meanwhile, Marwyn is a grandmaester. And Maester Luwin completed his studies in magic and went undisturbed.


Kryzbyn wrote:
I hadn't heard that before...interesting.

We don't know if that's actually the case. That's just something Marwyn told Sam... So far, we have no idea how true that claim is.

There's probably a bit of truth in it, but I doubt it's the whole truth... I'm guessing they intentionally sabotaged the hatching of the last dragon eggs.

Still, I don't see how that points to the Citadel knowing to create valyrian steel. Even people from Asshai-by-the-Shadow don't have that knowledge (as far as we know)... And they freely and openly practice sorcery there, with much of it being based on fire and blood, just like Valyria.


Marwyn would have no reason or need to make a lie that specific. He could have just said "I'm a Grand maester, we want to know what the BLEEEP is happening up at the wall."

There is SOMETHING going on there important enough to send a faceless man to kill a pig farmer to gain a key.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Marwyn would have no reason or need to make a lie that specific. He could have just said "I'm a Grand maester, we want to know what the BLEEEP is happening up at the wall."

Maybe he says it to make Sam tell him everything he knows about Aemon and Daenerys... Or to make sure Sam doesn't trust the other grandmaesters (they don't like Marwyn).

So far, no one else ever said anything even close to "the maesters killed the dragons". And even PoV characters lie and make mistake... There's no reason to think Marwyn is anymore unbiased or trustworthy than the citadel.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
There is SOMETHING going on there important enough to send a faceless man to kill a pig farmer to gain a key.

And you're jumping to the conclusion that it's valyrian steel. That's far from the only possibility of valuable knowledge that a faceless man would be seeking... In fact, maybe that faceless man is aiming to kill someone, rather than steal something... We don't know.

Now... Maybe they do know how to create valyrian steel... And maybe they are indeed responsible for the extinction of dragons. But so far, we have no evidence for the former claim and very little for the latter.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

For the Valyrian Steel, I think they have the method at the Citadel, just nobody can do it. As it was said upthread, it probably requires blood magic, as through the whole series, that is the most reliable magic, beyond the Children's fireballs, hedgewitch prophecy, and some warlock illusions.

Dragons raised from Blood Magic
Direwolves meet the Starks covered in blood from their mother
Bran's 'sacrifice' of his body to fly / become God
Bloodmagic to summon the demon baby
Berric's first death to Rez him
Berric's last death to Rez LSH
Creation of the White Walkers
Burning leeches of kingsblood to R'hllor for curses
Euron's horn blower
The taking of Faces
(TV) Shireen's death to melt snow
and presumably Shireen's death to Rez Jon Snow in the book (my guess)

The Westerosi look down on blood magic, and are a highly superstitious lot, moreso in the books than the show. The evidence is there that Valyria was steeped in blood magic. The Maesters have their own agenda (book) that we don't know, and whether its suppression of all magic or just blood magic is something that will surely come to play as Sam tries to reintroduce Valyrian Steel to the markets.

As for the Maesters trained in magic, the Starks' Maester wasn't (was he?), but Aemon had his Valyrian Steel link. Food for thought: a Maester forges his own chain. Aemon had a Valyrian link. Did he just rework an existing cache of Citadel Valyrian Steel to make it (ala Gendry's KL boss reforging Ice into Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper), or did Maester Aemon actuall create Valyrian Steel through the requisite spells and rituals? Either way, it further points to the Citadel having, at least, the knowledge of Valyrian Steel.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

((Note: further research shows that Luwin did have a VS link too. Extend that last analysis to him and Aemon))


archmagi1 wrote:
((Note: further research shows that Luwin did have a VS link too. Extend that last analysis to him and Aemon))

And neither of them were able to cast spells (Luwin says so himself... In fact he goes as far as to say that every other maester who studied magic failed to produce any spells). More likely, the Citadel has access to a quantity of valyrian steel and is able to reforge it into different things (we know this is possible through mundane means, as it was done by a very non-magic smith in King's Landing).

1- The direwolve being covered in blood is not magic. The death of their mother was an omen, as a stag (Baratheon sigil) caused the death of the Dire Wolk (Stark sigil) but died anyway.

2- Bran didn't "sacrifice his body" to become a god. His comatose did facilitate the three-eyed crow's contact, but his fall wasn't part of a ritual.

3- We don't know if Melisandre's curses are actually responsible for the death of the three kings.

4- In the books, we don't know how the White Walkers were created... Or even if they were created. Book WW are quite different from TV WW.

- - -

Now, maybe the Citadel does hold the secret to the creation of valyrian steel (I wouldn't discard the possibility). But so far, there's little, if any, evidence of that. As far as we know, no one produced valyrian steel since the Doom of Valyria, causing its price to sky-rocket. It's hard to believe the Citadel wouldn't ever try to benefit from that in over 300 years if they knew how to create it.

Marwyn's words are intriguing... But also unsubstantiated (so far). This is a series where we must take everything everyone says witha grain of salt. Characters not only lie, misjudge and make mistakes, but also misremember. Even PoV characters!

Hell! Sansa "remembers" beings kissed by The Hound... And that never happened!


Lemmy wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:
((Note: further research shows that Luwin did have a VS link too. Extend that last analysis to him and Aemon))
And neither of them were able to cast spells (Luwin says so himself... In fact he goes as far as to say that every other maester who studied magic failed to produce any spells)

In game of thrones magic is just coming back. No one would have been able to light a candle 40ish years ago when Luwin took the test.


And what about the 260 years before that?

Luwin goes as far as to say that no one maester ever lit any of the candles or cast a spell. That Valyria was the last ember and Valyria is gone.

He believed vehemently that magic was gone. We, readers, know that has never been the case. Magic was greatly weakened in Westeros, but never gone. And even so... No maester succeeded in lighting the candles. Not even the ones with a valyrian steel link in their chains.

I don't know why you're taking the fact the th Citadel despises magic as evidence that they know how to use magic... It doesn't make any sense. If anything, their disdain for magic should be evidence that they don't study magic.


Because if you want to get rid of something you need to know how it works.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Because if you want to get rid of something you need to know how it works.

...Or at least have sufficient caches of wildfire on hand.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Because if you want to get rid of something you need to know how it works.

Not really... You just have to make sure no one knows it and/or strongly discourage its research. Which is precisely what the Citadel does.

Now, I could see an argument for the Citadel knowing how magic works and trying to discourage it precisely because of how magic works (or at least, the magic they know of)...

But considering they spent nearly 300 years under Targaryen rule, and the value of Valyrian steel and much richer and more influential creating it would make the order, it's hard to imagine they never succumb to the temptation.


Lemmy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Because if you want to get rid of something you need to know how it works.

Not really... You just have to make sure no one knows it and/or strongly discourage its research. Which is precisely what the Citadel does.

Now, I could see an argument for the Citadel knowing how magic works and trying to discourage it precisely because of how magic works (or at least, the magic they know of)...

But considering they spent nearly 300 years under Targaryen rule, and the value of Valyrian steel and much richer and more influential creating it would make the order, it's hard to imagine they never succumb to the temptation.

Or it's hidden somewhere, in a dusty book even they don't know about, or sam figures it out.


In any case, I doubt they have the resources to mass produce valyrian steel... Or even to produce more than a handful of swords.

Obsidian is just as effective and much cheaper.


We'll have to wait longer for next season because winter is not here yet.

I blame Ned... -.-'


Can't snow be done with practical effects? Just toss the confetti around.

Liberty's Edge

Film it all in Iceland where they filmed beyond the wall stuff.


Right now? The days are like eighteen hours long in Iceland. I think the issue is there's so little warm weather action left to film. Everyone's in Westeros at this point, and even King's Landing and Dorne aren't going to be all that warm and sunny for long.

Speaking of winter in King's Landing, anyone else notice how much earlier their white raven arrived than Winterfell's?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Well as Robert Baratheon once told Ned: the North was bigger than the other six kingdoms combined. And old town is waaay in the farthest sw corner of the Reach. Probabaly be mid season next year before the wall knows...


archmagi1 wrote:
Well as Robert Baratheon once told Ned: the North was bigger than the other six kingdoms combined. And old town is waaay in the farthest sw corner of the Reach. Probabaly be mid season next year before the wall knows...

and thats why jon snow knows nothing..


BigNorseWolf wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:
Well as Robert Baratheon once told Ned: the North was bigger than the other six kingdoms combined. And old town is waaay in the farthest sw corner of the Reach. Probabaly be mid season next year before the wall knows...
and thats why jon snow knows nothing..

Pfff... Those are just excuses! In truth, the north is about half the size of all other kingdoms combined... Jon snow is just a lazy student!


Hitdice wrote:

Right now? The days are like eighteen hours long in Iceland. I think the issue is there's so little warm weather action left to film. Everyone's in Westeros at this point, and even King's Landing and Dorne aren't going to be all that warm and sunny for long.

Speaking of winter in King's Landing, anyone else notice how much earlier their white raven arrived than Winterfell's?

I must have missed that, at what time did it zoom in?

Liberty's Edge

Well, the delay could mean the GRRM will actually be able to finish the next book before season 7 airs.


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Bet ya a Scooby snack he doesn't


My money is on the complete series being complete before the next book.
And it's also on GRRM's life span being complete before the book series.


I think we'll go

Book of season 7

Seaon 8

Season 9

Book of 8 9

Movie?


BigNorseWolf wrote:

I think we'll go

Book of season 7

Seaon 8

Season 9

Book of 8 9

Movie?

Nah the show has only 13 to 15 episodes left (13 if the showrunners have their way). Season 8 will be the conclusion. And since HBO relies on people tuning into there shows for subscription, I think they would be very hesitant to conclude the series with a theatrical movie.


You've got the Dunk & Egg stuff for movie(s), or maybe a miniseries.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

I think we'll go

Book of season 7

Seaon 8

Season 9

Book of 8 9

Movie?

I think it'll be:

Season 8
Book 6
Season 9
Death of GRRM.

Dark Archive

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I don't really care if he ever finishes the books, since I haven't even started them, but a perverse part of me hopes that GRRM lives to 90 or 100 or so, just to annoy everyone betting on his imminent demise.


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Set wrote:
I don't really care if he ever finishes the books, since I haven't even started them, but a perverse part of me hopes that GRRM lives to 90 or 100 or so, just to annoy everyone betting on his imminent demise.

Well... I'm not betting on his imminent demise. He might actually live to 100 just out of spite... But he still won't have finished his books. :P


Dunk and Egg has the biggest chance of becoming a prequel series.


All I want to know is where the hell is Gendry? For that matter, where the heck is Eldric Storm?


Eldric Storm doesn't exist in the show... Gendry is probably still rowing. There isn't anything important going on with Robert's bastards in the books either, IIRC... Gendry does meet Briene at some point, but that's about it. :P


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Someone with some visual editing chops should put Gendry rowing into the scene where danyres is sailing into westeros.


Gendry's arms must be the size of tree trunks by now.

I'm pretty sure Dany & the Gang aren't going to try and land at King's Landing, so maybe she'll land first on Dragonstone?

  • It's the ancestral seat of House Targaryen
  • It should be largely vacant since Stannis packed up everyone he could to invade.
  • There are large deposits of dragonglass there, which is handy, as no one remembers how to forge Valyrian steel.
If all or part of her navy lands there, maybe they'll find Gendry working in an armory/smithy?

Sovereign Court

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:


I'm pretty sure Dany & the Gang aren't going to try and land at King's Landing, so maybe she'll land first on Dragonstone? It's the ancestral seat of House Targaryen
  • It should be largely vacant since Stannis packed up everyone he could to invade.
  • Makes some sense, however, Sandspear makes more sense since Dorne seems hell bent on taking out the Lannisters with any ally they can find.

    Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
    There are large deposits of dragonglass there, which is handy, as no one remembers how to forge Valyrian steel.

    At this point, Dany has no reason to need dragonglass or valyrian steel.

    Ambrosia Slaad wrote:


    If all or part of her navy lands there, maybe they'll find Gendry working in an armory/smithy?

    Doubtful, Gendry was rowing away from Dragonstone. Why would he return?


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    Pan wrote:


    Doubtful, Gendry was rowing away from Dragonstone. Why would he return?

    His right arm is a lot stronger than his left?


    MannyGoblin wrote:
    Dunk and Egg has the biggest chance of becoming a prequel series.

    What gives you the impression that anything has any chance of becoming a prequel series? Where have you heard a prequel series being discussed?


    I have inside information of course I am good friends with the producers. I also work in a video game industry.


    About a million years ago, GRRM signed a development deal with HBO. Given the popularity of GoT, it seems possible if not likely. I mean, the Dunk and Egg series is there to be adapted, but I'm not saying anything more definite than "Maybe someday . . ."


    Hitdice wrote:
    About a million years ago, GRRM signed a development deal with HBO. Given the popularity of GoT, it seems possible if not likely. I mean, the Dunk and Egg series is there to be adapted, but I'm not saying anything more definite than "Maybe someday . . ."

    I don't know... HBO seems less willing to afford the production costs. Admittedly, the Dunk and Egg chronicles don't include dragons, dire wolves or White Walkers, but it'd still be pretty costly.


    Well, you're right about that. Every series that's ended in the last few years has ended with a half season. On the other hand, GoT is known money maker, but Westworld? Not so much, not that I've got a problem with Westworld.


    Quote:
    Speaking of winter in King's Landing, anyone else notice how much earlier their white raven arrived than Winterfell's?

    Different season, different raven. That was back in Season 2, when the raven signified the end of summer and the start of autumn. It's now 2-4 years later (seriously, the timeline of the show is rather screwed up by this point) and winter has arrived.

    Damon Griffin wrote:
    MannyGoblin wrote:
    Dunk and Egg has the biggest chance of becoming a prequel series.
    What gives you the impression that anything has any chance of becoming a prequel series? Where have you heard a prequel series being discussed?

    It hasn't as a serious concern. However, GRRM did sign a development deal with HBO three years ago and they've talked to him about his other books which don't have deals with other studios, specifically TUF VOYAGING. I think HBO want to ease into science fiction with WESTWORLD first, they're still a little way from producing a space opera, so that's likely on the backburner. More likely is WILD CARDS, since HBO would like an adult-oriented superhero series and the rights just lapsed at SyFy. That will probably only happen if HBO decide not to do the WATCHMEN TV series with Zack Snyder though.

    For a GoT spin-off series, GRRM actually still owns all of the rights to the other material and he's already said he doesn't want to do a series about Robert's Rebellion but would be happy to discuss Dunk & Egg. I think his preference would be an occasional TV movie following the short stories, but there's no reason they couldn't do a full series mixing the short story adaptations with original stories. It'd be far cheaper than GoT and a lot less intense. The only problem is if the audience would want to tune in without any dragons, magic, Jon, Daenerys or Tyrion.


    Dunk & Egg struck me as a perfect follow up series only because it's such limited quantity, if you see what I mean; all of the name recognition, significantly less of the production costs! :P

    I'd lovelovelove a Tuf Voyaging series, I just can't imagine who'd play the title role. I read all the Wildcards books up to a certain point, but never related to the characters on an emotional level.

    Ooh ooh, what about Armageddon Rag as a miniseries? They could set it ten years earlier and use all the Vinyl set dressing and wardrobe and junk!

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