I tried to post in this thread yesterday, but I don't know where my post went. So here I go again.
I had the idea that Bards might get a limited amount of sneak attack damage. It does not seem a stretch to me that a Bard might be able to occasionally get in a really good shot despite not being the best of warriors overall.
Also as I suggested earlier I think the Bard aught to be able to use inspire courage, inspire greatness and inspire heroics while attacking him self. That'll probably make them a bit more attractive as a choice and makes the Bard's allies be less annoyed with they're buddy's choice of class.
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I tried to post in this thread yesterday, but I don't know where my post went. So here I go again.
I had the idea that Bards might get a limited amount of sneak attack damage. It does not seem a stretch to me that a Bard might be able to occasionally get in a really good shot despite not being the best of warriors overall.
Nah, I don't think sneak damage fits. Makes them too similar to existing classes. They should have their own thing.
Also as I suggested earlier I think the Bard aught to be able to use inspire courage, inspire greatness and inspire heroics while attacking him self. That'll probably make them a bit more attractive as a choice and makes the Bard's allies be less annoyed with they're buddy's choice of class.
I agree that Bardic buffs should be a little more on the fly.
I dunno, sneak attack or something similar seems to fit for me. Hey maybe they could get something like the "Dashing Swordsman" Prestige Class that Elan took in Order of the Stick. They would use they're Charisma to help them in battle.
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I dunno, sneak attack or something similar seems to fit for me. Hey maybe they could get something like the "Dashing Swordsman" Prestige Class that Elan took in Order of the Stick. They would use they're Charisma to help them in battle.
Something along those lines might fit.
Again, it seems to depend on whether they'll be song and spell driven, or JOAT skill driven.
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I do think we need the bard, but whit ofcourse a lot of changes the original bardsare the celtics ones the dire storytellers or pipe and drums players, they were good as warriors as well, and the other idea of the bard is the romantic idea of the singer, poet, instrument player & even a jester. i do think that the redisign of the class should permit the player custumaized to his onw preferences, something like the packs in 2e, i do reccall:the jester,wich could distrac the enemies and make them lose controll;& the blade,wich wass a fearsome oponent in batle, but his songs do not progress like the bard core class, those are another tipes of bard wich I think, the player may have the choise to build up, as class.
again.. from VENEZUELA to the team paizo, thank you!!
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Thinking about it, why not have a bard activate his music abilities has swift actions? That would still allow him to do other things in combat and still help out his party members. If this makes him too powerful, maybe give him the ability to concentrate as a swift action while maintaining his bardic music. Even giving him the ability to quicken his spells once or twice a day will help him a little and not make him overpowered.
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I dunno, sneak attack or something similar seems to fit for me. Hey maybe they could get something like the "Dashing Swordsman" Prestige Class that Elan took in Order of the Stick. They would use they're Charisma to help them in battle.
I really like the idea of giving them some sort of charisma bonus to their combat skills. It would be really cool. Maybe a class ability that lets them use charisma rather than strength or something?
I've always thought of bards as more of the dashing swordsman/swashbuckler type. The spells were a "neat trick" that they learned to help them survive, but primarily they were freespirited souls that made living by song/poem/story and the speed of their wit.
I love the bard, but i agree it needs little tweaks. My ideas are as follows:
#1. Give the bard more combat friendly abilities. Taunting strike, Kender insults, demoralizing quips. Letting the bard use his abilities to lower the targets AC, "taunt" targets to attack him rather than friends, and/or demoralize opponents.
#2. As previously stated, i like the idea of turning his perform abilities to be "bard abilities" much like the rogue techniques.
#3. I really think more sonic spells should be added to the bard spell list. I like the variety of cleric/wizard spells, but i feel some bard specific sonic spells are in order.
#4. As will already happen, d8 HP to go with the medium attack bonus.
Also as I suggested earlier I think the Bard aught to be able to use inspire courage, inspire greatness and inspire heroics while attacking him self. That'll probably make them a bit more attractive as a choice and makes the Bard's allies be less annoyed with they're buddy's choice of class.
He already can. If you take Perform (Sing, Oratory, Act, or even Comedy) you don't need an instrument and have free hands. Courage, Greatness and Heroics do not require concentration. The only limited ability is his spell casting. The only delay is that it takes a standard action to start the effect. That's not much of an action price to pay for gaining pluses to both attack and damage for basically an entire encounter. Add to the Inspiration the Bard's Whip proficiency and that's another +2 to one person's attack rolls from Aid Another.
There are three areas of a Bards possible performances:
Movement (Comedy, Act, Dance)
Vocal (Sing, Oratory, Act, Comedy)
Instrument (Keyboard, Percussion, String, Wind)
(Probably should clearly break them up with no overlap...)
Each could have a slightly different affect on how various bardic music abilities work.
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Ideally, the 3.5 Bard should be doable pretty much 'as is.'
But I'd like to see some of the ironclad stuff made a little more open. Instead of having the Bard *always* be music-based, one that functions more like a military commander, shouting out encouragements, tactics and warnings, would be mechanically identical, but less 'music' based and more tactically-minded, a student of warfare and the great victories (and spectacular defeats) of history.
Similarly, spontaneous casting is strongly associated to dragon-blood (or fiendish, fey, etc. bloodlines), which might not fit every single wandering minstrel type. Having prepared casting *as an option* would allow for the travelling gatherer of lore who *isn't* descended from dragons, but just has a broad and varied education that includes dabbling in a few spells here and there that he's picked up in his worldly travels.
Combining these two options, a 'Bard' could be mechanically very similar to a core Bard, but have a collection of pages and notes that he's gathered over the years, be somewhat skilled with swordplay, and have an impressive command of tactics, being quite the 'back seat driver' once combat starts, calling out all sorts of tactical advice. Perhaps he's a noble son, and his melange of skills from tactics and leadership to armored swordplay to the arcane arts, come from the expensive tutors his father arranged for him.
The 3.5 Bard, IMO, is too tightly focused. It has the 'jack-of-all-trades' label, but it fits it badly, since it's completely straightjacketed into a lackluster combatant, descended from dragons and with an odd assortment of spells, some related to song and music, who uses his magical music to inspire his allies. It's just a wonky build that doesn't fit anything that I've ever seen as a fantasy archetype. The exclusive focus on song and music, particularly in later sourcebooks that added even more spells related to music or sonic effects, IMO, detracts from the overall utility of the class, and makes it less useful as a 'core' class, when it's so terribly limited in focus.
(I kinda feel the same way about the Monk with it's pseudo-ki-powers / eastern weapons / asian philosophy theme. Ideally, a more open martial artist class should allow for a Capoierista or a Savate practitioner or a Roman boxer, with the pseudo-magical stuff in the current Monk class being 'standard options' that can be swapped out to make more western-style unarmed combatants.)
What about not giving bards a spell list and allowing them to know and spontaneously cast a number of spells they come across (like Eando Kline from the Pathfinder journals)...
So you have a number of "spells known" and you can copy them from the wizard's spellbook temporarily if you have one to borrow, copy some of the cleric's spells, heck if you can find a druid, you might be able to do some animal charming.
Maybe they could swap out known spells at the rate of one per new spell or something? It feels a bit more 'bard-y' to me than having their own spell list, to borrow, beg or steal others'.
Indiana Jones never broke out into song.
And where do you think the "Da da da DAH, duh duh DA!"s came from?
Not only that, I'm pretty suure he tap-danced one some nazis once...
I prefer the Alternate Bard and Sorcerer classes from the Book of Eldritch Might. I almost completely dismiss the Bardic Lore ability being a valuable asset however, because of the arbitrary nature of it. If the DM wants you to know the info, then he'll give it to you through the bard, or if he doesn't, then the bard has no chance of knowing it.
I really like the bard, and I have to laugh when people say they suck - I have vivid memories of our party's 3rd level bard turning an encounter with a 9-headed pyrohydra in a RPGA game into a cakewalk, for example.
There are two things that bother me about the bard: The bardic knowledge could be much more easily represented as a bonus to Knowledge skills instead of the clunky system it currently uses.
Secondly, bardic music has two problems. By 20th level, you get 20 uses per day of bardic music, and none of the abilities ever use more than one use. What bard is even going to use 10 uses in a single day? Second, nearly all the bardic music abilities could be simply represented as spells, and it seems redundant to have both.
<edit> One more thing - the bard being able to use his Perform check instead of standard saving throw for the DC on several of the abilities is more than a bit broken. By 5th level or so, a bard can have enough points invested in his Perform skill (8 ranks + 3 Cha mod + 3 skill focus = 14, DC 24 - the equivilant of a 9th level spell with a +5 ability modifier!) usually no one can resist his Fascinate ability, just as an example.
I'm not too worried about the self-buffing aspect of bard music - most bardic abilities affect himself and his allies and linger for several rounds after started up. The bard loses one standard action to buff the party (no worse than the cleric casting Bless or the wizard casting Haste), and can then enter the fight. I wouldn't be opposed to giving them d8 hit points though so they could stand up in a fight a bit better (or some ability to give themselves/others temporary hit points, like an aid spell or somesuch.)
P.S.:Have you ever tried statting out an NPC bard? Listing all the bards bardic music abilities takes up almost a page, unless you shorthand to just list the ability, like a spell list. I'd really like to see the bardic music abilities just rolled into spells, which would also give each bard more ability to be unique rather than them all having the same music ability at every level.
There are two things that bother me about the bard: The bardic knowledge could be much more easily represented as a bonus to Knowledge skills instead of the clunky system it currently uses.Secondly, bardic music has two problems. By 20th level, you get 20 uses per day of bardic music, and none of the abilities ever use more than one use. What bard is even going to use 10 uses in a single day? Second, nearly all the bardic music abilities could be simply represented as spells, and it seems redundant to have both.
Actually, that's a good point and gives me an idea. What if, in addition to the standard spell slots that the Bard in given, they are also able to tap into the magical nature of their music in a different way? If you had the option of using 1 use of bardic music to cast a first level spell, 2 uses of music to cast a second level one, 3 uses for a third, etc...
Sure, that would mean that a bard of 5th level would be able to cast an additional 5 levels of spells, but he could use them in any way he wanted (2 first level, 1 inspire courage and 1 second level). If the spells he could cast normally were ones that he had to memorize (ala the wizard); well, he could pick those up anywhere (but gets none to start with, nor automatically at every level). Cleric, Druid, Wizard, whatever. He can still only cast like four max (say, plus his Int mod). Then you could have those "music" spells he would typically know be the paltry 2 or something that he gets when he can cast spells of a new level - spontaneously cast through his understanding of the magic of the universe...
Is this too far out there?
Though, given the above, no Bard would ever be without the Extra Music feat...
Breathe of knowledge: for the cost of 2 skill points, the knowledge check the bard uses includes another category. For example, for the cost of 2 skill points, their knowledge(arcana) includes history at the same value. It would make their knowledge more specialized and give them at high levels truely outstanding and quantifyable knowledge that fits better with the 3rd edition mechanics.
Or give them a bards-only Versatile Sage feat (add Int bonus to # of Knowledge areas when taking Knowledge skill), exactly analgous to their "Versatile Performer" feat.
Ok, I'm going to ask this in all seriousness now:
Do we really HAVE to have Bards?
I mean, I understand the whole genre and the inpirational stuff and all that, but even in the most ridiculous circumstances what kind of dolt is going to sit in the middle of battle playing music to inspire and uplift everyone.
Ever see the movie, "The Longest Day"? It's about the invasion of Normandy and at one point of the movie, it shows the Scottish troops invading, complete with bagpipes, and when they're marching inland, the piper is there again, so, I'd say, yes, I can easily see musicians in battle.
The Romns used to have buccinators (horn players)in every legion. They were used to trasnmit orders accross the battlefield, as well as provide the men with inspirational music when marching and in battle.
One of the things I do not like about 4e, and which has made me interested in Pathfinder, is the dropping of things from D&D. I say keep the bard as core. If you do not like it, then don;t use it.
gnome dire bard with badgers, badgers, badgers... :D
I kinda like the separation of the bard into two classes that was brought up before.
one more of a spellcaster
one more of a fighting type with certain musical feats to do neato effects.
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I'm quite interested in this as the bard, for some reason, has always appealed to me. Bard builds are rarely optimal, but I've often found them fun. When there isn't a hole in the party that needs to be filled, I generally gravitate toward bard. I've been a dinosaur riding Bard/Dragonmark Heir of House Jorasco, a young human bard, and most recently an idealistic bard about to become a paladin in Rise of the Runelords. :)
The first question raised is: What do we want a bard to be?
Shall it remain the "fifth wheel" type character, only useful when the group is so small that everyone must multitask or so large that major tasks are already taken care of by dedicated characters? Or should it be a class that is viable in a typical 4 person party?
I personally feel any "jack of all trades" character is relegated to "fifth wheel" status - and don't mind the bard staying there at all. If the bard were redesigned in order to give it a viable role in a 4 person party, it can easily go for any role:
- Fighter - I think of a bard as going for the swashbuckling type fighter - light and fast, with finesse, not force
- Rogue - give a bard trapfinding, and they've often got enough skills to make a reasonable skill-monkey
- Cleric - Buffing and heals. Weaker than a cleric, but morale boosts fit with this sort of role
- Wizard - Again, weaker (and much more limited) than a wizard, but some abilities along this line exist.
I like the idea of a class level based bonus on knowledge checks over a nebulous bard only skill titled "Bardic Knowledge". Simple, easy. Thumbs up!
I like the idea of a small number of spells that can be cast per day - but a large "spell book", whether it be spells known (as in current 3.5, only a greatly enhanced number), all spells on a list (like beguiler), or a spell book (as archivist). I think the idea of having weaker spells and lower DCs, but most probably having the right tool for the situation a small number of times per day fits perfectly with the bard as a jack of all trades. This is also quite backwards compatible.
Speaking of the archivist, I think that's a fun sort of concept to attach to bards. In fact, my Pathfinder adventure path Bard/Paladin is sort of going that route. The eventual plan is to use the "Jack of all Trades" alternative to Bardic Knowledge, a single rank in all monster identification Knowledge skills, the skill trick "Collector of Stories" and "Knowledge Devotion" to get some beefy self bonuses. These won't apply to the party like an Archivist's Dark Knowledge would, but it's conceptually close. Combined with Divine Might, song bonuses, and Power Attack, she'll be pretty nasty in combat, for a bard! These sorts of lore/knowledge based bonuses hearken back to older mythological references to bards, as an added bonus.
Another broad sort of concept that might be fun is weaving buff spells into music to have it affect multiple allies - maybe a sort of "War Weaver Lite".
As a last general little note, the only part of bardic casting that really suffers is offensive spells have very low DCs because of the lower spell level. If bards are to have offensive abilities with their magic, then they'll need a DC boost. If their spell list relegates them almost exclusively to buffing, then leaving the DCs low is probably not going to cause an issue.
Random Thoughts:
- I saw a post in another thread that mentioned that in order to foster the typical stereotype of the bard being "in the thick of things", maybe inspire courages should activate when the character is engaged in combat. That comment stuck with me. I could see an "Inspire Combat" type song that increases AC if the bard is outside of combat, and increases attack and damage if the bard is engaging in combat.
- I really would like more song options. Seeker of the Song is fun, with ongoing buffs punctuated with refrains of enemy pain. :)
- I don't object to the idea of a small number of songs, like we have, but they increase in effectiveness according to your perform check.
- I have always disliked Countersong. Changing it to interfere with casting that includes verbal components, or that interferes with another bard's music, or that can twist spells in the process of being cast to change their effect would be a cool different ability that uses the same name.
Bard builds are rarely optimal, but I've often found them fun... most recently an idealistic bard about to become a paladin in Rise of the Runelords.
I've played a bard/paladin, and it was a blast. I made the mistake of letting one of the players (who had a dead PC) run him in Spire of Long Shadows, however. That adventure is NOT intended for sub-optimal builds!
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I've played a bard/paladin, and it was a blast. I made the mistake of letting one of the players (who had a dead PC) run him in Spire of Long Shadows, however. That adventure is NOT intended for sub-optimal builds!
Very cool! I've been leery of Paladins because my take on alignment rarely matches my DMs' - and I didn't want to open myself to alignment traps. I've been playing Crusaders to get my "I'll save you!" Knight in Shining Armor kicks - but I'm <gulp!> giving it a go. :) Hopefully it'll be a positive experience!
(A player I gamed with mentioned a Half-Orc Bard that used "Perform(Stomp)" for inspiration.)
I liked my Half-Orc Bard that performed in Haiku...
The bard has to stay. I'd just like to see more non-musical options for them.
That said, I'm trying to talk the other DM, into running the 3rd AP once it is out, so I can play a dwarven bard. I know it isn't an optimal build with the race/class combo, but I like the idea of wading into battle while singing rowdy fighting songs to encourage my allies. And when the fight is done, we switch to rowdy drinking songs.
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I think that bards represent a classic middle ages characterization which is needed in terms of game mechanics. Bards don't really suck, they just aren't glory characters. They tell tales of glory, not deal the death blow to some monster. For those of you who don't know much about the bard's historical counterpart, take a look at the following link. It is easy to change the names of their abilities to suit your campaign style. I personally like the historical interpretation of bards. I just don't like the naming of their in-game abilitie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard
"Since we are destined to live out our lives in the prison of our minds, our one duty is to furnish it well." -- Peter Ustinov.
I'm not familar with that unfortunately.You mean like the Basiran Dancer class from kingdoms of Kalamar?
Dances: We could add different kinds of elaborate attacks/defensive abilities that could damage/parry/or disarm foes.
WOW! never thought I would see any class from kingdoms of kalamar brought up.
i have the book but I don't feel like looking it up. An interesting class to say the least.
As for the bard. He needs a niche I think, personally. And not this buffing thing.
Bards suck? Really? I don't know how people are playing bards, but I totally disagree.
One of my players (my wife) played a female elven bard in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil (adapted to 3.5), and ask the rest of players if bards suck... She was a reasonably good archer, boosted the entire party with great effect and managed to pull some amazing stunts in the face of dire defeat: fascinating a green dragon with her music, bravely standing there and allowing the rest of the party to flee for their lives. Unfortunately, the follow-up suggestion failed, but the dragon was amused enough to let her go away with the promise of terrible and painful death if they ever come close to his lair again.
At other times, he charmed nine-headed hydras, bluffed temple guards, and single-handedly slayed a basilisk when the rest of PCs were already petrified...
Now go and tell me bards suck.
By the way, before some starts speaking of favoritism to the bard's player: in fact I almost tend to the opposite...
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In my opinion, the bard class was replaced by the PHB2 beguiler. He's the skill monkey/illusionist/enchanter only he actually does it well, unlike the bard.
I love beguilers too, but while they're the ultimate con men, they're not the "Yeah...I can do that" guys that bards can be. They can't fight, and throw them up against anything resistant or immune to mind affecting and other than a few group buffs, beguilers are in trouble. Also, no healing.
While there are a great many stories about such tricksters, I think bards are distinct common enough in tales that they deserve to keep their place. :) As long as no one forces you to play one when you don't want to, it doesn't hurt anything.
In some ways I think the ubiquitousness of reading and writing hurts bards - many of the greatest uses of bards in stories were as news disseminators, repositories of knowledge and history, etc. An interesting twist might be to see how bards become more important when only wizards, aristocrats and those that sink skill points or a feat into reading can use the written word. That'd be a big change, but I might try that in a campaign sometime as a houserule. :)
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I for one love a well played bard character. Mind you not alot of people can play a bard well, but that just goes to show that the class could use some tweakage, but thats to be expected. What I'd like to see is more bardic music abilities that affect the bard himself. Also they need to get cantrips like wizards so they can have at will uses of ghost sound. Come on, how awesome would that be, a bard that can provide his own back up singers? If not cantrips, just a class ability for at will ghost sound would be enough.
Also, they should change "Bardic Music" to "Performance Ability" so as to not pigeon hole the abilities as musical only. An option for a bonded item, like wizards get would be cool, but a variant option would be needed for those who dont use a musical instrument. I'd also like to see the various "Inspire" abilities retooled to be magical effect boosts, not just "oh hey the bard is singing well, that makes me less afraid..." but you would need to figure out what kind of bonus it would be as enhancement would too often not stack.
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The main problem bards have is that they don't really have a predefined role. A lot of people want bards to be different things and that runs into many problems.
<some snipping for length>
So what do we even see bards doing in combat with their actions? Are they buffing, are they swinging a sword, are they entrancing people with spells?
Bards fall in the "do everything" role, similar to the druid, only unlike the druid they tend to suck at every role instead of being awesome at everything.
See, the "people want bards to be different things" is part of it's appeal to me.
I like to optimize. I'll spend hours combing through books and thinking of all the options, etc. But I optimize for a character concept - and a lot of my character concepts go for the whole "jack of all trades" thing. Factotum kinda fits here too, and I've been playing with trying out one of those someday.
When I go for bards, it's because:
1. the party is so small, we need people to fulfill multiple roles, even if they're not quite as good as a specialist
2. The party is so large that all the basics are covered, and a fifth wheel fill in is useful and appreciated
I would agree that bards aren't as powerful as druids. I agree that bards need some help. I think it's obvious that the initial conception of "partial casting" didn't take into account that the exponential growth in power produced by spells as they increase in level means that 6th level spells pale into insignificance next to 8th and 9th level spells (and 4th level spells might as well not exist at that point).
I just don't particularly want PRPG to choose which role the bard should fill and shove it into that role. Sure, it's an oddball sorta class. I still love it. I'd rather they upped a couple of the things it's particularly weak at to keep pace with the upgrade in power levels across the board and do all they can to maintain the following things:
- Jack of All Trades concept
- Music/Performance driven feel
- Versatility in options over power
I don't want the bard to be another wizard - but if the wizard's out, I'd like the bard to be able to substitute on a temporary basis. Same for the other iconic roles in a party.
I build my bards for versatility in action. Melodic casting to allow casting and singing, basic combat ability so singing and fighting can take place at once. A wide range of skills to allow useful actions in most circumstances. Etc.
Thanks, angel, for the Bard changes posting. It was interesting reading! there's a lot I like about it, though I worry in this case about backwards compatibility. :)
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Angel, excellent write-up. I personally don't think bards should be casting 9th level spells, but you put down in type some interesting ideas.
Also, you'd have to add a line where bards learn spells from other bards, that the new spell could not be higher level than what the learner already knows. It is also strange to me why this is more successful when your 'teacher' makes a bad performance (low perform check). I'd go with a different DC mechanic for picking up others' spells.
Essentially, I'd like to see the bard stay much as it is, the 5th wheel class, with the following changes:
1. Perhaps a point system for bardic abilities similar to the rage points Barbarians may be acquiring. These could be spent on anything from scaling combat bonuses (and penalties to enemies) to countersongs, movement increases and skill checks. Maybe the categories the bard can use for spending his points should be chosen like rogue talents or dragon shaman auras, creating bards that can specialize.
2. I love many of the bard spells, so I do not want them to have less spells than before. More magic would be workable, especially if given as a choice (similar to the rogue abilities that can grant a spell 1/day).
3. I do think the 3.5 Bard suffers from too many empty levels; I anticipate this is being addressed already by Paizo staff. Adding a few progressing abilities in the same spirit as the fighters' armor proficiency and weapon groups would be suitable, I think. Bard talent categories for their music points (or similar) also work; I would like to see both. My ideal is a bard that can choose as he levels up to increase the magic of his music, focus on knowledge skills, focus on social skills, specialize in combat, or some of each.
4. Bards also suffer from having too many jobs in combat (imo). I think a good change would be to allow a bard to use inspiring or hindering abilities while in melee. I hope this isn't too complex or unfair mechanically compared to a wizard.
edit: On #4 I should have said "make it easier for a bard..."
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Loving the movie bard analogies heres another for you...
"Go, Flash, Go! Go, Flash, Go!" :)
back to the thread... I like bards but I do believe they get short changed too often because they are tailored for NPC interaction. A game I'm in has a bard (gnome) and hes done amazing things so far with his small spell list and bardic knowledge, however, the DM is running a basic dungeon crawl type game (The Fane Trilogy). We discovered the information about a white dragon being worshiped by a clan of kobolds and when we finally reached the dragon we where able to prepare, the bard burnt a number of spells to increase his charisma and max out his skills and we hoped he could talk our way through the encounter. But the DM who hasn't got a great head for roleplaying encounters made absolutely no rolls for the encounter and despite some excellent roleplaying from the player, forced the result into a fight.
the end result was a heated discussion with the DM after the session and the guy playing the bard (who is fairly new to 3.5) contacting me with suggestions on what to do with his bard.
Bottom Line, bards excel at roleplaying almost exclusively but suck at filling the 4th role of a party, as a 5th wheel the bard becomes godly but not all groups have that luxury and so often miss out on the roleplaying aspect the bard brings to the table.
What I would like to see is bards gaining something that gives them more effectiveness outside of roleplaying.
I personally like the original 1st ed bards premise of being a amalagam of fighter, rogue and druid. I'm eager to see the pathfinder version of the bard, but in the campaign im in now, i am playing a bard on the way to becoming a Fochlucan Lyrist, whic is a bout as close to my vision of the bard as I have found. we have a small party, a druid with a ape for a companion, an elven wizard and myself. so far, we have had a lot of fun, and i really like this character.
as to the pathfinder changed, i like the d8 hp, and going back to ranks with a +3 for class skills works great. The wizard player loves the school power abilities, and the druid player is happy that he doesnt have to change much where his character is concerned.
Great job, Paizo! Keep up the good work!
I'd like to see more musical abilities for the bard, even if that would mean less spells. I never saw the bard as a real spellcaster anyway - the bardic music was the real point of the class to me.
Basically anything has been said by now about if bards suck or not. I like them very much - favorite class and all - and they are a favorite among most of my players too. The basic concept of a bard is IMHO very classic fantasy.
I agree that they need to be re-vamped, but I'd like to see more musical abilities, not less.
For Indiana-Jones-style all-round adventurers, there's the Factotum class. Bard have their special role and its centered around social interaction, music and inspiration. From my experience, they make great party leaders. In the right hands, of course.
I would be disappointed if the Pathfinder Bard would be more jack-of-all-trades and less Minstrel.
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I like the post with the bard tricks. As a trick I would like to see options for impersionation. Something that allowed the Bard to be ultimate in quick change artist. The ultimate in bluffer. Something that ties into a actor heritage. I want the Bard to aso be a trickster/charlatan.<SP>?
I know I'm late to the conversation. Sorry.
no worries, it's always good to have another person in this thread. :)
but yeah, I never associated bard's with summoning demons, then I saw the animated movie rock and rule, and it definately puts a new spin on an old classic.
After reading the original post and some of the responses, it seems to me that the real problem many players have is not the mechanics of the Bard class so much as it is the flavor text associated with the powers. Some guy merrily prancing and humming tunes doesn’t seem as cool as the proud warrior wading into hordes of orcs, a holy man wielding the powers of the gods to defy the horrors of the undead, or a mysterious wizard raining fire on his foes.
I think all that is needed is a slight change in the portrayal of the class, and it would become much more acceptable. I look for inspiration at two things that originally inspired the class.
The first is the wizard hero Vainamoinen in the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala. He knew the magical power of words and songs, and was very much a wizard. The idea that songs and harmony have power, and that creation was “sung” into being is a very common element in myths. This is definitely shown in JRR Tolkien’s Middle Earth. There is the harmony of Eru that created the world, and the rather low key magic of both Gandalf and Saruman who had uncanny abilities of persuasion and charm using their potent and magical voice. The main difference, is that they did not need to sing and prance to get it done.
The second is the historical basis of the Bard class. Throughout many ancient cultures there is a caste of learned scholars and priests who advised kings, kept laws, and protected the sacred knowledge of their society. This is the basis of the historical druids (who are much more like the Bard class than the Druid class in D&D), skalds, rishis, and the orphic mystery cults.
Therefore, in my campaigns, Bards are those people who have mastered the ancient sacred texts, those stories (usually epic poetry that require a great memory to recite) that were given by the gods and are not of earthly origin. This knowledge, and understanding of the deeper esoteric meaning of the stories, give the Bards their magical abilities. They also learn the lesser stories of their people, and that also forms the basis of Bardic Knowledge. They are a unique class of lorekeepers responsible for advising and protecting kings and warriors, and guarding the ancient customary laws of their people. Their mastery of rhetoric and magic gives their voices mysterious powers. This is the basis for all of their Songs and Countersongs. Often, there are centers of learning where disciples spend many years mastering all the sacred texts and laws, and these are the “Bardic Colleges.” It’s simply another name for ancient sites of learning.
I don’t require Bards to “sing” or “play instruments.” Instead, they simply chant and recite certain portions of the old epic poems, notably those portions that are actually magical and almost always in an archaic and almost forgotten dead language, an uncorrupted language from the days of the first men. I think this is a much cooler alternative than someone playing guitar that somehow becomes magic. I save any actual music for those situations when playing music makes sense. Music, after all, is well known to affect the emotions. When it makes sense for a funeral dirge to bring grief or regret, or merry music to bring joy and confidence, then Bardic Song can actually be songs (although even here they would not be original compositions, but part of the memorized sacred poetry sent to men by the Muses or whatever).
I would say that Bards are the original class of arcane magic users. Wizardry came later as more mysterious and darker powers were contacted and offered to teach men their secrets. As such, Bards are considered much “safer” magic users and are protected and revered in society even in those campaign settings where Wizards and Sorcerers are viewed with a suspicious eye.
To me at least, these distinctions make the Bard much less ridiculous, and giving them a clear role in the setting. I don't change the mechanics at all. As they say, your mileage may vary.