Pathfinder Adventure Path #144: Midwives to Death (Tyrant's Grasp 6 of 6)

*only cares that if Orcus gave him the wand, MAYBE now we'll get people to do Rappan Athuk in Golarion*

I thought about putting Rappan Athuk in Golarion. I figured it'd make sense for it to be in Ustalav. The cult of Orcus were buddy-buddy with the Whispering Tyrant and Zelkor was part of the Shining Crusade alongside Iomedae.

Axial,

Well I can go with that...if only because I keep wanting more Orcus involvement...

Isn't Orcus one of those Demon Lords that said meh to Golario? I suppose if the Tyrant would have the help of a deity it would be a Pathfinder Iconic one, and that would be the goddess of undeath herself - who is actually supposed to be the one hiding the Tyrant's most hidden secret.

Isn't Orcus one of those Demon Lords that said meh to Golario?

Sort of, but they did include him in The Book of the Damned, so he's not being completely ignored or deemphasized in the setting like some others that appeared in DnD.

No "Continuing the Campaign" article? This worries me a bit.

On the other hand, if the PCs are already dead (IIRC from Book 1 - it's been a while since I skimmed it) and the plot-line is finished in Book 6, then the PCs can go to their well-earned rest in the Outer Planes. That angry catrina psychopomp can finally pigeon-hole them the way that she wanted to do back in Book 1. :)

And there could be enough world-changing stuff going on by the end of Book 6 that it doesn't make sense to continue the campaign (unless one does that with new/different characters).

Gold,

Xeno is correct in that Orcus isn't as prominent a Demon Lord as say, Noticula before her ascension/transfiguration. But he is still a major player, just like Pazuzu and Jubliex. So while I don't foresee him going toe to toe with Urgathoa any time soon...it's still likely that Tar Barphon MIGHT call on him to help him out.

Gold,

Xeno is correct in that Orcus isn't as prominent a Demon Lord as say, Noticula before her ascension/transfiguration. But he is still a major player, just like Pazuzu and Jubliex. So while I don't foresee him going toe to toe with Urgathoa any time soon...it's still likely that Tar Barphon MIGHT call on him to help him out.

I know Orcus is a powerful and influential Demon Lord, but just not on Golarion, you see.

He is stated to have small interest in that world (just as small as the number of his followers there), as it's infested with the cults of Kabriri and Zura, as well as with the church of Urgathoa herself.

Tar-Baphon is close to a demigod himself and is actually working to rise as a god. If the Tyrant is said to have the support of the goddess of the dead herself, I see close to no reason for him to call for the aid of a demigod to achieve his goal.

While it isn't impossible, it just fells unlikely...

Gold,

I think you meant undead...but even so, it's not like Tar Barphon is all that interested in working with the gods. Even one he might semi-agree with in Urgathoa. Orcus on the other hand...

Hmmm what if Urgathoa hid Tar-Baphon's phylactery in her bastard child that resides in Bastardhall

Bellona wrote:

No "Continuing the Campaign" article? This worries me a bit.

On the other hand, if the PCs are already dead (IIRC from Book 1 - it's been a while since I skimmed it) and the plot-line is finished in Book 6, then the PCs can go to their well-earned rest in the Outer Planes. That angry catrina psychopomp can finally pigeon-hole them the way that she wanted to do back in Book 1. :)

And there could be enough world-changing stuff going on by the end of Book 6 that it doesn't make sense to continue the campaign (unless one does that with new/different characters).

** spoiler omitted **

If that is indeed the only possibility to stop T-B, it is an incredibly bad design.

I don't see any reason any player/character other than a fanatic paladin would (need to) do this.

What do they care if there is another god of Undeath in addition to Urgathoa or not?
In the afterlive it doesn't matter.

Umm, you are presuming that Whispering Tyrant wouldn't pull Ydersius and become god emperor or do Gozreh and have a realm in material plane. Or that having yet another god of evil wouldn't affect more things than cleric options.

Also, you should specify "I don't see any reason for non heroic player/character" because heroic characters pretty much by definition would be in for that stuff :p

Amaranthine Witch wrote:

Bellona wrote:

No "Continuing the Campaign" article? This worries me a bit.

On the other hand, if the PCs are already dead (IIRC from Book 1 - it's been a while since I skimmed it) and the plot-line is finished in Book 6, then the PCs can go to their well-earned rest in the Outer Planes. That angry catrina psychopomp can finally pigeon-hole them the way that she wanted to do back in Book 1. :)

And there could be enough world-changing stuff going on by the end of Book 6 that it doesn't make sense to continue the campaign (unless one does that with new/different characters).

** spoiler omitted **

If that is indeed the only possibility to stop T-B, it is an incredibly bad design.

I don't see any reason any player/character other than a fanatic paladin would (need to) do this.

What do they care if there is another god of Undeath in addition to Urgathoa or not?
In the afterlive it doesn't matter.

Maybe because T-B doesn't want to play by the rulebook all gods play (no direct intervention, we're kind of all on the same page regarding Rovagug, we don't blow things up too much not to provoke an all-out war) and he telegraphs openly that his godhood will be pillars of death and fields of skulls.

Because he's totally Nagash, and that's what Nagash would do.

Amaranthine Witch wrote:

Bellona wrote:

No "Continuing the Campaign" article? This worries me a bit.

On the other hand, if the PCs are already dead (IIRC from Book 1 - it's been a while since I skimmed it) and the plot-line is finished in Book 6, then the PCs can go to their well-earned rest in the Outer Planes. That angry catrina psychopomp can finally pigeon-hole them the way that she wanted to do back in Book 1. :)

And there could be enough world-changing stuff going on by the end of Book 6 that it doesn't make sense to continue the campaign (unless one does that with new/different characters).

** spoiler omitted **

If that is indeed the only possibility to stop T-B, it is an incredibly bad design.

I don't see any reason any player/character other than a fanatic paladin would (need to) do this.

What do they care if there is another god of Undeath in addition to Urgathoa or not?
In the afterlive it doesn't matter.

Well, there's revenge. The obol is going to kill you and destroy your soul anyway, you might as well take affirmative action to do it in a way that takes down Tar Baphon with you since it's his fault.

Cori,

Neat idea but I'm still not sure that Tar Barphon would have been able to do that while still locked away in Gallowspire's dungeons.

Cori,

Neat idea but I'm still not sure that Tar Barphon would have been able to do that while still locked away in Gallowspire's dungeons.

Tar-Baphon wouldn't have to. The rumor is that he had long ago entrusted his phylactery to Urgathoa to hide. That just might be what she wound up doing with it.

Mmmm...perhaps. I still think her child is something she had with Lord Eragayl Arudora who kept it from her because he didn't want her finding and corrupting the child. But that's me.

Hmmm. I won't be killing off my PCs, if
that's the plan.... I'll just have the holy energy turn them into outsiders or something, I'm NOT gonna murder my heroes for beating the game.

Well there is an option in the previous book to ensure PC survival If you want to take it.

I'd kinda be surprised if heroic sacrifice was the only option without some sort of "If PCs do things well, they can survive" thing since lot of APs have victory conditions were you get better result if you did better :p

Well there is an option in the previous book to ensure PC survival If you want to take it.

I'd put "survival" under Quotes there...

I'd kinda be surprised if heroic sacrifice was the only option without some sort of "If PCs do things well, they can survive" thing since lot of APs have victory conditions were you get better result if you did better :p

From reading the 5th book, there doesn't seem to be a non-sacrifice option. Could be there is something in the last book, but I somehow doubt it, from reading book 5.

The option mentioned above still has the heroes be killed when defeating the Whispering Tyrant, it just makes it possible for them to maybe be resurrected.

I'd kinda be surprised if heroic sacrifice was the only option without some sort of "If PCs do things well, they can survive" thing since lot of APs have victory conditions were you get better result if you did better :p

Prepare to be surprised - the PC's future is bleak indeed. As Franz mentions above - there is a sidebar option suggested - but as written? All roads lead to some distinct unpleasantness.

I have to agree with Marco's comments - not a good design at all - unless you have player buy-in from the get go.

unless you have player buy-in from the get go.

If you're running an AP from start to finish that's something you kinda need.

I believe the Player's Guide and first adventure go in a bit more on this one being a survival horror AP rather than some high heroic fantasy.

I'm really going to be interested to see how they write up the "what if the PC's fail" bit that is usually part of the last installment.

We already KNOW what happens if they succeed (2E pretty much gives that away).

As for "survival horror", I think somewhere along the way they forgot about the "survival" part.

The best survival horror stories are the ones where nobody survives.

The best survival horror stories are the ones where nobody survives.

Yes, history is great.

Dracovar wrote:

unless you have player buy-in from the get go.

If you're running an AP from start to finish that's something you kinda need.

To a point. If the game ends with everyone dying and being able to fulfill what the players had in store for them, then why bother play? Sure, if you’re down to play an AP there’s some sense of reservation for disbelief that you’re going to railroaded to a large degree. But if you’re given zero options and told that no matter how hard you think outside the box or how well you play the game, everyone dies because that’s just how it’s written? That’s a terrible narrative that kills any kind of enthusiasm and has people go “this is why homebrew is superior.” After this many APs being written, much like the Dark Phoenix movie, having that kind of forced ending does not make for a worthy finale to the series of adventures.

I’d hope there’s an out where if everyone does everything in their power to survive, at least one of them can live to tell the tale. The players at least deserve an Endgame ending.

After this many APs which assume that PCs survive and win you can excuse Paizo for publishing one where they are assumed to win but not to survive.

Maybe just this particular kind of story isn't up your alley, just like Iron God's wasn't for people who hate tarnishing their precious medieval fantasy with guns and lazors or how Hell's Vengeance wasn't for people who can't imagine how somebody could be so sick and depraved to play an evil character and think RPGs work only if the entire party is Good.

Different folks, different strokes.

Rysky wrote:

Dracovar wrote:

unless you have player buy-in from the get go.

If you're running an AP from start to finish that's something you kinda need.

To a point. If the game ends with everyone dying and being able to fulfill what the players had in store for them, then why bother play? Sure, if you’re down to play an AP there’s some sense of reservation for disbelief that you’re going to railroaded to a large degree. But if you’re given zero options and told that no matter how hard you think outside the box or how well you play the game, everyone dies because that’s just how it’s written? That’s a terrible narrative that kills any kind of enthusiasm and has people go “this is why homebrew is superior.” After this many APs being written, much like the Dark Phoenix movie, having that kind of forced ending does not make for a worthy finale to the series of adventures.

I’d hope there’s an out where if everyone does everything in their power to survive, at least one of them can live to tell the tale. The players at least deserve an Endgame ending.

The beauty of GMing is being able to make the changes appropriate for your own group. AP's offer a story and and a guideline, nothing more. If what they present won't work for your table, Rule 1 says you can change it how you see fit. That may be more work for you, and you may decide this particular AP isn't the right one for your table because of that. Good news, there are 23 other AP's that might be a better fit.

After this many APs which assume that PCs survive and win you can excuse Paizo for publishing one where they are assumed to win but not to survive.

Maybe just this particular kind of story isn't up your alley, just like Iron God's wasn't for people who hate tarnishing their precious medieval fantasy with guns and lazors or how Hell's Vengeance wasn't for people who can't imagine how somebody could be so sick and depraved to play an evil character and think RPGs work only if the entire party is Good.

Different folks, different strokes.

This only works if the GM is upfront with the players. There's a lot of toxic GMs out there who'd use this to give double birds to their players. That said, I know lots of players who'd cry foul after learning that they can't win despite creating monster characters that are literally untouchable. Most of them are arcane bloodrager/paladin/lame oracles.

I'd have to see how the final book was written and how railroading the final scenario is. If it's just "Nope. You lose. Period. Too bad." then that's poor writing and Paizo should be blasted with both barrels in the comments section and review corner. If it's a beautiful narrative where unstated demon lords and godlings (who are probably CR 99) will destroy the universe in one large fantastic explosion unless the PCs sacrifice their souls to calm the ley lines of the solar system, and they'd die regardless, that's a much smaller pill to swallow.

It's all about context.

Gorbacz wrote:

After this many APs which assume that PCs survive and win you can excuse Paizo for publishing one where they are assumed to win but not to survive.

Maybe just this particular kind of story isn't up your alley, just like Iron God's wasn't for people who hate tarnishing their precious medieval fantasy with guns and lazors or how Hell's Vengeance wasn't for people who can't imagine how somebody could be so sick and depraved to play an evil character and think RPGs work only if the entire party is Good.

Different folks, different strokes.

This only works if the GM is upfront with the players. There's a lot of toxic GMs out there who'd use this to give double birds to their players. That said, I know lots of players who'd cry foul after learning that they can't win despite creating monster characters that are literally untouchable. Most of them are arcane bloodrager/paladin/lame oracles.

I'd have to see how the final book was written and how railroading the final scenario is. If it's just "Nope. You lose. Period. Too bad." then that's poor writing and Paizo should be blasted with both barrels in the comments section and review corner. If it's a beautiful narrative where unstated demon lords and godlings (who are probably CR 99) will destroy the universe in one large fantastic explosion unless the PCs sacrifice their souls to calm the ley lines of the solar system, and they'd die regardless, that's a much smaller pill to swallow.

It's all about context.

And for context you seem to completely conflate dying with losing. It’s not. The goal of the AP is to stop Tar-Baphon.

And for context you seem to completely conflate dying with losing. It’s not. The goal of the AP is to stop Tar-Baphon.

Not true. I don’t believe them to be one and the same. The goal is to stop TB. Likely by any means necessary. All I’m saying is that depending on the narrative presented in the final book, it’s either going to be acceptable or it won’t be. A pigeonhole railroad ending with no leeway isn’t acceptable. I’m hoping that we won’t get that. And I’m not alone on this. I’d like to think the concerns the others and I share are unwarranted. Again, it’s all about context. We don’t know everything yet. Come August, we’ll all see for ourselves what’s what.

Not true. I don’t believe them to be one and the same.

That said, I know lots of players who'd cry foul after learning that they can't win despite creating monster characters that are literally untouchable.

If it's just "Nope. You lose. Period. Too bad." then that's poor writing and Paizo should be blasted with both barrels in the comments section and review corner.

This suggested to me that you were. The heroes die, yes. But it's to stop Tar-Baphon. Paizo wouldn't write out a "you lose" cap to an adventure path, a 1shot maybe.

A pigeonhole railroad ending with no leeway isn’t acceptable. I’m hoping that we won’t get that.

The sidebar addresses that.

And for context you seem to completely conflate dying with losing. It’s not. The goal of the AP is to stop Tar-Baphon.

Actually, I believe the goal of the AP is to merely set TB back on heels for a while - we already know that in 2E, the 1E paths are presumed to be completed (successfully) and oh, what's this? Tar-Barphon is one of the new setting big baddies?

TB is still around after all the events of this AP. The players in this AP don't get to finish him off - they don't STOP TB, rather, they just slow him down and deny him his fancy nuke.

The goal of the AP, I firmly believe is:

Set the table for what Golarion 2E is going to look like. And that's pretty much it.

No, the goal of the AP is to stop the Whispering Tyrant. The narrative purpose of the AP is to setup 2E and other adventures. (Siege of Gallowspire being a prime example.)

The characters certainly aren't saying "we must set up the new edition!"

kevin_video wrote:

Not true. I don’t believe them to be one and the same.

kevin_video wrote:

That said, I know lots of players who'd cry foul after learning that they can't win despite creating monster characters that are literally untouchable.

kevin_video wrote:

If it's just "Nope. You lose. Period. Too bad." then that's poor writing and Paizo should be blasted with both barrels in the comments section and review corner.

This suggested to me that you were. The heroes die, yes. But it's to stop Tar-Baphon. Paizo wouldn't write out a "you lose" cap to an adventure path, a 1shot maybe.

kevin_video wrote:

A pigeonhole railroad ending with no leeway isn’t acceptable. I’m hoping that we won’t get that.

The sidebar addresses that.

And even if the sidebar didn't, Rule 1 does. If you don't like how something is working, it's your right and perrogative to change it. Nobody is forcing or expecting you to run an AP as written, and the Paizo developers are not coming to your house to take back all your books if you make changes.

They were upfront with the themes of this campaign, in that it is survival horror. Its not your standard PCs are superheroes game.

Survival horror is a subgenre of video games inspired by horror fiction that focuses on survival of the character as the game tries to frighten players with either horror graphics or scary ambience. Although combat can be part of the gameplay, the player is made to feel less in control than in typical action games through limited ammunition, health, speed and vision, or through various obstructions of the player's interaction with the game mechanics. The player is also challenged to find items that unlock the path to new areas and solve puzzles to proceed in the game. Games make use of strong horror themes, like dark maze-like environments and unexpected attacks from enemies.

Emphasis mine.

they don't STOP TB, rather, they just slow him down and deny him his fancy nuke.

The also stop him from getting to the Startsone and becoming a full on god.

This suggested to me that you were. The heroes die, yes. But it's to stop Tar-Baphon. Paizo wouldn't write out a "you lose" cap to an adventure path, a 1shot maybe.

Sorry. I've only ever had toxic GMs in my life who loved lording over others while mocking and laughing aloud as they slaughtered characters time and time again. The idea that "there's no other way but this one fixed path" hits rather close to home.

Maybe Book 6 will have its own sidebar.

I'm sorry that you have had awful GM's, but most GMs aren't like that.

Rysky wrote:

This suggested to me that you were. The heroes die, yes. But it's to stop Tar-Baphon. Paizo wouldn't write out a "you lose" cap to an adventure path, a 1shot maybe.

Sorry. I've only ever had toxic GMs in my life who loved lording over others while mocking and laughing aloud as they slaughtered characters time and time again. The idea that "there's no other way but this one fixed path" hits rather close to home.

Maybe Book 6 will have its own sidebar.

Ouch on the toxic GM's - that's rough.

Book 5 does have a sidebar - though it's still not quite enough, I don't think. I was thinking that if there has to be a sacrifice, maybe just one of the PC's is all it would take...might make for a more interesting ending from a player perspective.

I'm vaguely reminded of an old picture of the three surviving members of what was probably a 10 member team toasting their fallen comrades at the end of Return to the Tomb of Horrors. Maybe something like that - you just need one pure soul to make the sacrifice.

And then future Golarion highschools can bear the PC's name, or something, as a tribute...

I'm sorry that you have had awful GM's, but most GMs aren't like that.

I don't know about most, but I'd compromise with some.

Ouch on the toxic GM's - that's rough.

Book 5 does have a sidebar - though it's still not quite enough, I don't think. I was thinking that if there has to be a sacrifice, maybe just one of the PC's is all it would take...might make for a more interesting ending from a player perspective.

I'm vaguely reminded of an old picture of the three surviving members of what was probably a 10 member team toasting their fallen comrades at the end of Return to the Tomb of Horrors. Maybe something like that - you just need one pure soul to make the sacrifice.

And then future Golarion highschools can bear the PC's name, or something, as a tribute...

I was thinking close to the same. I mean, the bard/skald of the party survived in 300. Someone should survive to remember them. We did Rise of the Runelords and the only one to remember us was one character's wife and child. No one knows what happened, but since the worst case scenario didn't, we must have been successful. It was due to the dice rolls, but it was a TPK on both sides. It's a hollow victory when there's no epilogue or closure for anyone. It's the not knowing and having the NPCs holding out, waiting, that sucks. But I agree, even if it's just one person. Preferrably not in a coma.

The goal of this adventure path is to separate the Whispering Way from Ustalav. James Jacobs told me so. :p ;)

There will be deity descriptions for two gods in the last AP volume of PF1E. The gods in it are going to be the dwarven god Angradd and the redeemed demon lord Nocticula. I can't wait to read about them! I hope there're full body illustrations for both.

Cori Marie wrote:

I'm sorry that you have had awful GM's, but most GMs aren't like that.

I don't know about most, but I'd compromise with some.

I'd argue it can't be the majority because of the vocal minority thing. Aka, nobody comes to forum threads to praise their awesome gms :p Its far easier to complain when someone is doing something bad, so in internet you find everyone who wanted to complain about something.

Like, I've never met any one of those killer gms people keep talking about and I also have only ever met two murderhobo players(who played CN who acted CE) in two really short games. In long running campaign I've never seen "lol let's kill them anyway" players

Have the subscriber PDFs been sent to anyone yet? If yes, may I know about the exact contents of the Developer Showcase article?

Have the subscriber PDFs been sent to anyone yet? If yes, may I know about the exact contents of the Developer Showcase article?

They have indeed. I'm off to play some D&D, but if no one else has replied with a list in a few hours, I'll post something.

Have the subscriber PDFs been sent to anyone yet? If yes, may I know about the exact contents of the Developer Showcase article?

I can say Ron Lundeen fit an entire adventure for 16th-level characters in 2 pages. :-)

HTD wrote:

Have the subscriber PDFs been sent to anyone yet? If yes, may I know about the exact contents of the Developer Showcase article?

They have indeed. I'm off to play some D&D, but if no one else has replied with a list in a few hours, I'll post something.

Ok. Just taking a look at mine now. The Developer Showcase article has:

That's from a quick skim so apols if any details not right. Happy to post more once I've looked through in more detail.

There will be deity descriptions for two gods in the last AP volume of PF1E. The gods in it are going to be the dwarven god Angradd and the redeemed demon lord Nocticula. I can't wait to read about them! I hope there're full body illustrations for both.

Both entries are same format as Inner Sea Gods and both have full body illustrations.

EDIT: Seems Medriev was faster than me!

I just want to know what is the final boss. Like does Tyrant's simulacrum make appearance, do you fight something else as final boss, do you fight tyrant at weakened state or at full power?