Aeons becoming LN, Inevitables no longer main LN outsider group, so many reasons not to get 2E it's not funny.Don't think they are turning LN, just getting more attention.
Jacobs said in his thread they're turning LN.
Jacobs said in his thread they're turning LN.Aeons becoming LN, Inevitables no longer main LN outsider group, so many reasons not to get 2E it's not funny.Don't think they are turning LN, just getting more attention.
Really? That's quite different from what I would expect.
That's an awesome cover we got there! What's that horrifying thing in the cover and is it holding the Concordance in its hand?
If that's the Concordance than it's my favorite book in the fictional reality. *o*
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Sweet! Saloc is cool. And yes I do love the cover plus the fact we're getting further details about the bestiary.
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"Irresponsible illureshi protean sorcerers" :D
That sounds like something you'd write, Todd Stewart. :p ;)
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So that cover of the concordance is eye surrounded by seven different colors? I'm kinda wondering what that is about .-.
Come to think about it, how many pages is this book compared to chronicles of righteous? I mean this one has 24 demigods, Chronicles had 50 according to shop blurb, but in chronicles they had half a page each, so if ones in this book get full page(or full two pages) that is nicely more content(especially considering amount of neutral outsider demigods is much smaller than celestial demigods).
It would be nice to get a page for each of them, given the fact that there are only 24 deities. That would also mean there's more space for more flavor, rules for the faithful and an amazing depiction of each of those.
I really hope that's the case... Besides, how many members does each of these groups have?
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Going by the blurb, it would seem that the Monad is a demigod & not a full deity - which is a little disappointing, tbh...
Carry on,
--C.
Jacobs said in his thread they're turning LN.Aeons becoming LN, Inevitables no longer main LN outsider group, so many reasons not to get 2E it's not funny.Don't think they are turning LN, just getting more attention.
The whole bunch turning LN would need one hell of a good explanation that isn't "we rewrote how alignments work again", especially if Pharasma remains TN, a 50/50 split would make more senses.
Interesting cover art.
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I guess logic there was that "Pharasma could be considered LN for being the judge of life and death"? Not really sure
Interestingly in Pathfinder 2nd edition Pharasma only allows clerics of NG, LN, and N alignments.
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First of all, I'm very happy that this book is being made!
Secondly, it seems that each of the major monitors has a true god, or something similar to it, over them.
Aeons- the Monad
Inevitables- the Axiomite God-Mind
Proteans- the Speakers of the Depths
Psychopomps- Pharasma
Lastly, I guess I'm somewhat saddened that they're doing away with Inevitables in 2e, though I won't be making the switch myself. Does anyone know if they will write them out, just use them a lot less, just ignore them?
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Lastly, I guess I'm somewhat saddened that they're doing away with Inevitables in 2e, though I won't be making the switch myself. Does anyone know if they will write them out, just use them a lot less, just ignore them?
Yet another on my massive checklist of why I will stay far from PF2e.
So what Outsider will be prominent for the Lawful Neutral? Don't say Axiomites, that's just one race. I like Inevitables because of how much variety there is/can be.
It has been said in this thread, that the developers has said Aeons will have their alignment switched to LN and will become the primary LN outsider.
Rysky's right. Aeons have nothing to do with Pharasma; those are the psychopomps, which are staying neutral.
Unless the Aeons' raison d'être also change a lot, not really convinced about the need to switch their alignment.
and I mentioned Pharasma because of the similiraties she have with the Aeons.
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Rysky's right. Aeons have nothing to do with Pharasma; those are the psychopomps, which are staying neutral.Unless the Aeons' raison d'être also change a lot, not really convinced about the need to switch their alignment.
and I mentioned Pharasma because of the similiraties she have with the Aeons.
There aren't really any similarities. Pharasma is mostly laser-focused on the death and journey of the souls thing, aeons are all over the topic of balance. They cooperate, but for rather different reasons: Pharasma wants the souls to reach their destination, aeons want to prevent soul-stealers from upsetting the balance.
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Yeah, though isn't aeons thing more of "ABSOLUTE" balance? Like "Oh no, now there are TOO few soul eaters stealing souls, there has to be more of them now"?
Like thats reason why I thought Aeons' being neutral was fitting for them: Their sense of logic, balance and order is way too alien to fit any of the alignments
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Huh. I just thought of one reason why Aeons being LN would make sense to me.
While Aeons are all about balance and stuff, they are more importantly about monitoring the multiverse and such. Which is part of reasons they don't care about good and evil since both good and evil planes are part of the multiverse. However, there ARE topics they always react aggressively to: Stuff like timetravel and such which damage the multiverse. They never react to time travel with "Oki, quota is alright, you can do whatever you want" its always getting rid of time traveler somehow. Hence why I could see them as being LN: Aeons would have reason to react badly to Maelstrom as Maelstrom is the erosion and destruction of multiverse, so as monitors and keepers of it they would have reason to combat it.
Huh. I just thought of one reason why Aeons being LN would make sense to me.
While Aeons are all about balance and stuff, they are more importantly about monitoring the multiverse and such. Which is part of reasons they don't care about good and evil since both good and evil planes are part of the multiverse. However, there ARE topics they always react aggressively to: Stuff like timetravel and such which damage the multiverse. They never react to time travel with "Oki, quota is alright, you can do whatever you want" its always getting rid of time traveler somehow. Hence why I could see them as being LN: Aeons would have reason to react badly to Maelstrom as Maelstrom is the erosion and destruction of multiverse, so as monitors and keepers of it they would have reason to combat it.
The Maelstrom is an important part of both the River of Souls and the Working of the Multiverse.
while I do get the basic idea, it still doesn't give a good reason for all of them turning LN.
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All I know is psychopomps rule. :p
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Huh. I just thought of one reason why Aeons being LN would make sense to me.
While Aeons are all about balance and stuff, they are more importantly about monitoring the multiverse and such. Which is part of reasons they don't care about good and evil since both good and evil planes are part of the multiverse. However, there ARE topics they always react aggressively to: Stuff like timetravel and such which damage the multiverse. They never react to time travel with "Oki, quota is alright, you can do whatever you want" its always getting rid of time traveler somehow. Hence why I could see them as being LN: Aeons would have reason to react badly to Maelstrom as Maelstrom is the erosion and destruction of multiverse, so as monitors and keepers of it they would have reason to combat it.
The Maelstrom is an important part of both the River of Souls and the Working of the Multiverse.
while I do get the basic idea, it still doesn't give a good reason for all of them turning LN.
Oh, you're assuming that mortals and their souls are important in the grand picture, the one that aeons see. That's an interesting theory.
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Oh, you're assuming that mortals and their souls are important in the grand picture, the one that aeons see. That's an interesting theory.Huh. I just thought of one reason why Aeons being LN would make sense to me.
While Aeons are all about balance and stuff, they are more importantly about monitoring the multiverse and such. Which is part of reasons they don't care about good and evil since both good and evil planes are part of the multiverse. However, there ARE topics they always react aggressively to: Stuff like timetravel and such which damage the multiverse. They never react to time travel with "Oki, quota is alright, you can do whatever you want" its always getting rid of time traveler somehow. Hence why I could see them as being LN: Aeons would have reason to react badly to Maelstrom as Maelstrom is the erosion and destruction of multiverse, so as monitors and keepers of it they would have reason to combat it.
The Maelstrom is an important part of both the River of Souls and the Working of the Multiverse.
while I do get the basic idea, it still doesn't give a good reason for all of them turning LN.
Yeaaaaaaah, Aeons don't "care" about mortals and souls, they care about their design on balance of universe <_< I wouldn't be surprised if Aeons were completely okay with undead because they are still part of the multiverse. (that said, there never has really been statement on what aeons think about undead so eh)
Campaign Setting book for PF2: Aeons Revisited
I suppose their alignment change is more than a call for an in deep revision of their lore in the setting.
Creative Director
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It's almost entirely a result of us wanting to shift away from D&D's inventions, the inevitables, as the focus and instead to focus on our own inventions. The other option would have been to either make up an entirely new Lawful Neutral race (which was pretty unappealing to me at this time, since it's important for this race to have at least SOME established weight to the Great Beyond), or to expand the axiomite role to be an entire race, and that makes even less sense to me. With the role of Neutral outsiders being filled VERY well by psychopomps, and the role of the aeons being one that we've struggled with finding a place for, I think, it is the most logical and appealing choice, story-wise, for us at Paizo.
Folks will have to be a bit more patient to see the full story since I don't yet want to talk too much about 2nd edition stuff since we're still MONTHS away from that...
But we can talk about psychopomps right, James?
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Creative Director
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But we can talk about psychopomps right, James?
Not only are psychopomps 100% an addition to Pathfinder made by us and not by WotC or D&D... but like angels and demons, they're real-world mythological concepts that have been around for a long long long time.
Of ALL the outsider races, innevitables are the ONLY one that has that poison pill combo of not having a real world mythology to draw from and not being something we made up. By rolling them in as part of aeons, effectivley, and then downplaying their role while increasing the aeon role, we not only allow ourselves to develop these concepts much easier in things beyond pen-and-paper RPG books, but it's also much more satisfying from an artistic and creative and brand standpoint.
EDIT: Realized I didn't actually answer the question. Yes, we can talk about psychopomps.
In fact, "we" (as in you and I and the rest of the internet) can talk about inevitables here too.
But "we" (as in Paizo) are more limited in being able to talk about inevitables in print. That's the problem this change fixes.
(Another option would be simply removing inevitables 100% from 2nd edition and paving them over and retconning into "They were never part of the setting at all." But that's too awkward and goes against my preference for keeping the edition change as subtle as possible from an in-world standpoint.)
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I could see the Inevitables as being something similar to the Manhunters from Green Lantern, a fine prototype but their single-minded focus on their particular enforcement led to greater problems. Eventually they were retired by the cosmos for the Aeons, capable of seeing multiple perspectives on their realms of enforcement (two IS more than one!)
But what do you do with a bunch of retired inevitables? I mean it's not like you can remove their purpose, will there be some kind of conflict?
I think it's... quite likely.
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I just like the fact gods of the dead have a really nice feel when their servitors aren't like angels or demons. That's always been...problematic to me about a goodly number of D&D settings.
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I'm really excited to find out more about some protean lords in this! Also, more aeon content for my friend.
I do like that aeons seem like a better foil to proteans- it's lawful without being robotic, similar to how proteans are chaotic without being senseless.
It's almost entirely a result of us wanting to shift away from D&D's inventions, the inevitables, as the focus and instead to focus on our own inventions. The other option would have been to either make up an entirely new Lawful Neutral race (which was pretty unappealing to me at this time, since it's important for this race to have at least SOME established weight to the Great Beyond), or to expand the axiomite role to be an entire race, and that makes even less sense to me. With the role of Neutral outsiders being filled VERY well by psychopomps, and the role of the aeons being one that we've struggled with finding a place for, I think, it is the most logical and appealing choice, story-wise, for us at Paizo.
Folks will have to be a bit more patient to see the full story since I don't yet want to talk too much about 2nd edition stuff since we're still MONTHS away from that...
Already know, but this still doesn't answer the "all or nothing" part of it.
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Creative Director
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Already know, but this still doesn't answer the "all or nothing" part of it.It's almost entirely a result of us wanting to shift away from D&D's inventions, the inevitables, as the focus and instead to focus on our own inventions. The other option would have been to either make up an entirely new Lawful Neutral race (which was pretty unappealing to me at this time, since it's important for this race to have at least SOME established weight to the Great Beyond), or to expand the axiomite role to be an entire race, and that makes even less sense to me. With the role of Neutral outsiders being filled VERY well by psychopomps, and the role of the aeons being one that we've struggled with finding a place for, I think, it is the most logical and appealing choice, story-wise, for us at Paizo.
Folks will have to be a bit more patient to see the full story since I don't yet want to talk too much about 2nd edition stuff since we're still MONTHS away from that...
Well, then maybe ask again or rephrase so I can try to address that? I don't know what you mean here by "all or nothing," but I suspect that what you're looking for is an answer we aren't ready to give yet since 2nd edition isn't yet here (see my "Folks will have to be a bit more patient..." comment at the end of my prior post above).
Well, then maybe ask again or rephrase so I can try to address that? I don't know what you mean here by "all or nothing," but I suspect that what you're looking for is an answer we aren't ready to give yet since 2nd edition isn't yet here (see my "Folks will have to be a bit more patient..." comment at the end of my prior post above).Already know, but this still doesn't answer the "all or nothing" part of it.It's almost entirely a result of us wanting to shift away from D&D's inventions, the inevitables, as the focus and instead to focus on our own inventions. The other option would have been to either make up an entirely new Lawful Neutral race (which was pretty unappealing to me at this time, since it's important for this race to have at least SOME established weight to the Great Beyond), or to expand the axiomite role to be an entire race, and that makes even less sense to me. With the role of Neutral outsiders being filled VERY well by psychopomps, and the role of the aeons being one that we've struggled with finding a place for, I think, it is the most logical and appealing choice, story-wise, for us at Paizo.
Folks will have to be a bit more patient to see the full story since I don't yet want to talk too much about 2nd edition stuff since we're still MONTHS away from that...
Why all of them turn LN instead of something like a 50/50 split?
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Why all of them turn LN instead of something like a 50/50 split?
Oceania has always been at war with East Asia.
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Creative Director
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Why all of them turn LN instead of something like a 50/50 split?Well, then maybe ask again or rephrase so I can try to address that? I don't know what you mean here by "all or nothing," but I suspect that what you're looking for is an answer we aren't ready to give yet since 2nd edition isn't yet here (see my "Folks will have to be a bit more patient..." comment at the end of my prior post above).Already know, but this still doesn't answer the "all or nothing" part of it.It's almost entirely a result of us wanting to shift away from D&D's inventions, the inevitables, as the focus and instead to focus on our own inventions. The other option would have been to either make up an entirely new Lawful Neutral race (which was pretty unappealing to me at this time, since it's important for this race to have at least SOME established weight to the Great Beyond), or to expand the axiomite role to be an entire race, and that makes even less sense to me. With the role of Neutral outsiders being filled VERY well by psychopomps, and the role of the aeons being one that we've struggled with finding a place for, I think, it is the most logical and appealing choice, story-wise, for us at Paizo.
Folks will have to be a bit more patient to see the full story since I don't yet want to talk too much about 2nd edition stuff since we're still MONTHS away from that...
Because that doesn't solve the need for a devoted/dedicated lawful neutral outsider race to fill the gap already held by Angels/Azatas/Archons/Proteans/Psychopomps/Devils/Daemons/Demons.
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I would say I "get" and approve of the "retcon" of Aeons to be LN in 2e,
and this is from somebody who disapproves of certain Paizo setting tendencies.
I could dwell on the inadvisability of taking ANY product of inherently subjective setting designers as objective truth in first place,
but I think what is more interesting is the latent question of the nature of "Alignment Combinations"
i.e. LN as obligatory measurement of 2 axis, which could be more Lawful or more Neutral,
but to some extent begging the question: fundamentally WHY must we always have 2 Alignments if one axis is irrelevant?
Going to 2e, I would ask would it be more fruitful to allow "just Lawful" as alignment, rather than muddy the waters re: Neutral?
Even if we wish mortals and normal creaturs to always have 2-axis alignment, could not beings of pure single alignment exist?
Along with that, more strongly carving out identity of "True Neutral" seems to hold a latent promise,
which might fold into allowing "just Lawful" (/Chaotic/Good/Evil) by Lawful Neutral being more Lawful-True Neutral,
while "just Lawful" was the part of old (current) Lawful-Neutral which was "Lawful and Grey on Good-Evil Axis".
That somewhat means Alignment isn't quite as reducable to a "grid", but I feel that might be a feature more than bug...
How Golarion Setting Team will be impacting 2e rules is interesting topic in many areas,
but especially as Cleric/Deity Alignment issues are seeing a significant shake-up, I'd be intested how
this development in area of Lawful/Neutral might impact things around Lawful Deities/Portfolios and the like,
and perhaps if (True) Neutrality might actually see explicit specific invocation in terms of Core Portfolios...
Unlike previous editions where Neutral on 1/2 Axis just meant you got more non-Alignment Domains,
which were usually more "interesting" but the concept of positive (True) Neutrality was never directly addressed.
Umm, in pathfinder neutral means lack of alignment.
It doesn't mean that at all. Neutral has it's own version of Holy Aura/Holy Word, and a strongly aligned neutral plane puts penalties on those who aren't neutral.
A rock (on the material plane...) lacks an alignment; a N animal, elemental, human, or god does not.
I like the Aeon concept but isn't there a race that got added recently that kind of works a bit better for an Inevitable replacement? The Automatons from the Jistka Imperium...actually on second thought there are too few of them aren't there.