So I feel like I'm missing something but the druid archetype that mentions Vermin Shape III. Is that spell printed somewhere else, a typo of Beast Shape III, or did it not make it into the book?
"A Shifter in one of their Wild Shape forms can change to any other of their available Wild Shape forms as a move action without consuming uses per day of Wild Shape."
Stealing this for the shifter revision I'm working on, it ties it together nicely.
Of course. What was it that made you call at "no fun allowed" crowd? Was it any different from any other OP forms for the past 15 years?
it feels too much like a strict, keep it in line, game sessions which is fine every now and then but it's hard to cut lose like I want. What really bothers me is that there's a subsection of hardcore players in that crowd that want to bring the rest of the systems in line with their style of play and they're just pushy enough to get some of their changes through.
I'm thinking that for higher levels, the best Shifter builds will involve multiclassing into Ranger with the Shapeshifting Hunter feat. That is the feat that lets you count your Ranger levels as Druid levels for the number of Wildshapes you have per day.
You just take enough Shifter levels to get the forms and abilities that you need, then Ranger will give you nice things like Favored Enemy and Combat Feats. The Shapeshifting Hunter feat will make sure you keep getting more uses of Wildshape per day.
Unfortunately, I don't think you can use the feat the other way around for a Shifter with Favored enemy, since the feat was made for druid/rangers and you aren't *actually* a druid. It only works for boosting wildshape because you count as having druid levels unless I am mistaken.
Good find, I should try that with my PFS Shifter, assuming everything gets into the AR.
Thanks! My only hesitation with this combination is that I can't help but wonder if using Druid works better in the first place since your Favored Enemy will be higher. Though Shifter gives you better BAB at least.
Then again, Shifter gives you Monk AC without an additional dip, and that's a big deal. I guess it works after all :)
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Good find, I should try that with my PFS Shifter, assuming everything gets into the AR.Thanks! My only hesitation with this combination is that I can't help but wonder if using Druid works better in the first place since your Favored Enemy will be higher. Though Shifter gives you better BAB at least.
Then again, Shifter gives you Monk AC without an additional dip, and that's a big deal. I guess it works after all :)
Being stuck with just one wild shape form is a huge drawback to that build. I mean, HUGE.
Being stuck with just one wild shape form is a huge drawback to that build. I mean, HUGE.Good find, I should try that with my PFS Shifter, assuming everything gets into the AR.Thanks! My only hesitation with this combination is that I can't help but wonder if using Druid works better in the first place since your Favored Enemy will be higher. Though Shifter gives you better BAB at least.
Then again, Shifter gives you Monk AC without an additional dip, and that's a big deal. I guess it works after all :)
Yea, that's true. Unless you're like me, and intend to use the Lycanthrope shifter archtype that is. All I'll be missing out on is some DR, claw improvements, a few abilities for my one form, and a few points of monk AC.
Trading those for all the stuff a ranger can do feels like a viable option to me :)
What will be your assessment if you compare the shifter with a fighter?
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Being stuck with just one wild shape form is a huge drawback to that build. I mean, HUGE.Good find, I should try that with my PFS Shifter, assuming everything gets into the AR.Thanks! My only hesitation with this combination is that I can't help but wonder if using Druid works better in the first place since your Favored Enemy will be higher. Though Shifter gives you better BAB at least.
Then again, Shifter gives you Monk AC without an additional dip, and that's a big deal. I guess it works after all :)
You wouldn't take this right when you get Wild Shape. You'd wait one level until you get your second form. People are tossing the "one form" thing around a lot, but you only spend one level limited to shifting into a single form, and it's a much better form than any other class can get at that level.
Fighter has waaaay more stuff for it to use.
I mean, in the sense of having more archetypes, or there being more total combat feats than forms, I guess?
What will be your assessment if you compare the shifter with a fighter?
Levels one through three- about the same. Fighter has more feats and AC, while you get the low-level advantages of natural attacks (more so if you grab a racial or trait bite attack). You can both take Power Attack right away, which is what really matters. After that, Shifter all the way. Fighter's gotten a lot of nice stuff, but it doesn't really beat being handed pounce, flight, those extra two skill points per level, and just the cool factor on being able to turn into something else.
Right now Green Knight is the winning! :)
I think my favorite parts of this book are the Eidolon Mount feat and the Fey Form and Ooze Form polymorph spells.
Which classes get to use the Fey Form and Ooze Form spells? Are any of them available to witches?
The Ooze Form sound like fun things to give Juiblex worshipers.
I've done a bit more reading, and I have a correction about the Shapeshifting Hunter feat: It doesn't work with the Shifter.
This is because there is nothing in the shifter class that says its levels count as druid levels for the purposes of wildshape, nor do they stack with druid levels for wildshape. They only count for the purposes of wildshape feat prerequisites. So, that build is dead.
It is too bad. I think that feat was the only hope for multiclass shifters, since Pathfinder doesn't have an Extra Wild Shape feat.
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I think my favorite parts of this book are the Eidolon Mount feat and the Fey Form and Ooze Form polymorph spells.
Which classes get to use the Fey Form and Ooze Form spells? Are any of them available to witches?
The Ooze Form sound like fun things to give Juiblex worshipers.
Fey Form I: Alchemist, Bloodrager, Druid, Magus, Shaman, Sorcerer/Wizard, and Witch.
Ooze Form I: Alchemist, Magus, and Sorcerer/Wizard.
Hahah, those of you who hated the snowball spell will be happy to know that the reprint doesn't have a save or staggered anymore. It is just a damage conjuration now. Still good for 1st level, but not super overpowered now.
Okay, so we need a -|Nerf| of the current content.
That should do the trick, right?
Hahah, those of you who hated the snowball spell will be happy to know that the reprint doesn't have a save or staggered anymore. It is just a damage conjuration now. Still good for 1st level, but not super overpowered now.
I thought some people said it was evocation now
Well, in that case, I hope they leave Shifters Edge alone.
BTW, there are some REALLY cool feats for shifters in U Wilderness.
Mutated Shape (*****) (Classified as purple in my guide) is an awesome feat to take.
Btw. Something just came up and I am curious about.
If you are granted a trait or racial trait that grants bite attack and you get another bite attack from say... shape shift, do you get 2 claws, 2 bite attacks? I want to say 'no' but I want more of a clarification on this so I can put things like this in my guide.
Verzen, have you evaluated combining natural attacks and unarmed strikes for your guide? I get the sense that it's going to be a pretty powerful combo.
Well, in that case, I hope they leave Shifters Edge alone.
BTW, there are some REALLY cool feats for shifters in U Wilderness.
Mutated Shape (*****) (Classified as purple in my guide) is an awesome feat to take.
Btw. Something just came up and I am curious about.
If you are granted a trait or racial trait that grants bite attack and you get another bite attack from say... shape shift, do you get 2 claws, 2 bite attacks? I want to say 'no' but I want more of a clarification on this so I can put things like this in my guide.
You only get one bite per mouth.
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Hahah, those of you who hated the snowball spell will be happy to know that the reprint doesn't have a save or staggered anymore. It is just a damage conjuration now. Still good for 1st level, but not super overpowered now.I thought some people said it was evocation now
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Natural attack specialist- Only gets 2 claw attacks, max damage only 1d10, doesn't count as magic.
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They don't overcome DR/magic? From previous posts I'd gotten the impression that the claws could overcome various forms of DR. I'm surprised that magic isn't one of them.
They don't overcome DR/magic? From previous posts I'd gotten the impression that the claws could overcome various forms of DR. I'm surprised that magic isn't one of them....
Natural attack specialist- Only gets 2 claw attacks, max damage only 1d10, doesn't count as magic.
...
You have to take the feat Eldritch Claws if you want claws that bypass magic DR. Cold iron, silver, adamantine and - DR, but not magic.
EDIT: I'm surprised too. I guess they assume you're have an amulet to take care of that?
They don't overcome DR/magic? From previous posts I'd gotten the impression that the claws could overcome various forms of DR. I'm surprised that magic isn't one of them....
Natural attack specialist- Only gets 2 claw attacks, max damage only 1d10, doesn't count as magic.
...You have to take the feat Eldritch Claws if you want claws that bypass magic DR. Cold iron, silver, adamantine and - DR, but not magic.
EDIT: I'm surprised too. I guess they assume you're have an amulet to take care of that?
Eldritch Claws overcomes silver.
Eldritch Claws overcomes silver.They don't overcome DR/magic? From previous posts I'd gotten the impression that the claws could overcome various forms of DR. I'm surprised that magic isn't one of them....
Natural attack specialist- Only gets 2 claw attacks, max damage only 1d10, doesn't count as magic.
...You have to take the feat Eldritch Claws if you want claws that bypass magic DR. Cold iron, silver, adamantine and - DR, but not magic.
EDIT: I'm surprised too. I guess they assume you're have an amulet to take care of that?
"Your natural weapons are considered both magic and silver for purpose of overcoming damage reduction."
Well, in that case, I hope they leave Shifters Edge alone.
We already know that won't happen, per remarks from Mark Seifter about an upcoming FAQ.
But I can see why nobody outside of Paizo mentioned this issue -- I am guessing that pretty much everyone who did notice it liked what they saw.
They don't overcome DR/magic? From previous posts I'd gotten the impression that the claws could overcome various forms of DR. I'm surprised that magic isn't one of them....
Natural attack specialist- Only gets 2 claw attacks, max damage only 1d10, doesn't count as magic.
...You have to take the feat Eldritch Claws if you want claws that bypass magic DR. Cold iron, silver, adamantine and - DR, but not magic.
EDIT: I'm surprised too. I guess they assume you're have an amulet to take care of that?
Or a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes -- quite adequate for a Shifter of level 6+.
This is sounding more and more (and based on my own reading of the book) like a poor fiscal decision.
...currently weighing cancellation of subscription that just picked up because it looked much better in the hype...
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To be fair about snowball though it was always bit nonsensical.
I mean, conjuration creation type meant that its not magical snowball, its just an regular snowball created and propelled by magical means. So somehow, a regular snowball does cold damage instead of bludgeoning and somehow regular snowball has chance of staggering you meanwhile being hit by mace doesn't stagger you. At least change to evocation makes cold damage make more sense.
That said, I can't remember time when Paizo nerfed something to make it make more sense and they DID probably do it because some people complained about it or something.
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To be fair about snowball though it was always bit nonsensical.
I mean, conjuration creation type meant that its not magical snowball, its just an regular snowball created and propelled by magical means. So somehow, a regular snowball does cold damage instead of bludgeoning and somehow regular snowball has chance of staggering you meanwhile being hit by mace doesn't stagger you. At least change to evocation makes cold damage make more sense.
That said, I can't remember time when Paizo nerfed something to make it make more sense and they DID probably do it because some people complained about it or something.
The real issue with it was always the stagger effect at level 1 that ignored Spell Resistance was just way too much. It became the obvious choice for everyone able to change the element of a spell on the fly.
Feros did say that.Hahah, those of you who hated the snowball spell will be happy to know that the reprint doesn't have a save or staggered anymore. It is just a damage conjuration now. Still good for 1st level, but not super overpowered now.I thought some people said it was evocation now
*Checks* Yep, it is evocation now. I missed that, lol.
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To be fair about snowball though it was always bit nonsensical.
I mean, conjuration creation type meant that its not magical snowball, its just an regular snowball created and propelled by magical means. So somehow, a regular snowball does cold damage instead of bludgeoning and somehow regular snowball has chance of staggering you meanwhile being hit by mace doesn't stagger you. At least change to evocation makes cold damage make more sense.
That said, I can't remember time when Paizo nerfed something to make it make more sense and they DID probably do it because some people complained about it or something.
The real issue with it was always the stagger effect at level 1 that ignored Spell Resistance was just way too much. It became the obvious choice for everyone able to change the element of a spell on the fly.
Well, yeah, it was really powerful spell for level 1, but what I said was that I doubt they would have ever bothered to change the text because of "It doesn't make sense how it works" <_< They did fix that common sense problem while nerfing it, but they would have never changed it from conjuration to evocation for sake of making it make more sense.
(because seriously, snowball should be bludgeoning not cold if it was real non magical snowball. Same way ice spears are partially piercing instead of just cold damage)
Of cource, the brief spell description should probably be changed since it still mentions a conjured snowball.
Do talons count as claws for the purpose if number of attacks? Say you have 2 claws, 2 talons, a bite, and a gore. Do you get 4 attacks or 6?It's my understanding that talons and claws are separate natural attacks.
That is my understanding as well, especially for bipedal creatures talons are on the feet and claws on the hands.
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Is there a place to start a new thread to discuss everything in this book that isn't the Shifter class? It seems like a lot of folks have questions about various feats, animal companions and familiars, the First World, etc., that have been unfortunately sidelined by the excitement over the new class.
Do talons count as claws for the purpose if number of attacks? Say you have 2 claws, 2 talons, a bite, and a gore. Do you get 4 attacks or 6?
Talons are attacks with your feet from a bipedal creature. These are different from claws on a bipedal creature, as those are hand attacks.
Now if you had hooves and talons, you'd have to pick one of the other.
What does the natural philosopher do?As fun as the other responses were, it would be nice to know what investigator features it trades out.
Altered weapons[simple, handaxe, whips, kukri, throwing axe, short bow] and skills [+survival, -perform], +heal/survival, -linguistics/spellcraft for inspiration, herbalist [uses that profession instead of alchemy, free infusions]
EDIT: trades/alters: Skills, weapons/armor, inspiration, trapfinding, alchemy, trapsense, 3rd level talent.