Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

Matrix Dragon wrote:

The way you can tell that something went wrong with the shifter is that they had to fill in its level progression table with reminders that your AC increases by +1 every four levels. If the monk didn't need that, then the only reason the shifter has it is to hide the fact that they aren't getting any new abilities.

I haven't seen the shifter yet, but I feel compelled to point out that the monk does have the reminder. They just put it in an 'AC bonus' column.

Good point! I'll edit my comment to avoid misleading people.

Comparing parts of a class to a full class isn't a fair comparison. (Which class is being unfairly compared is another matter entirely.)

But when parts of a class out perform a entire class...

Benjamin Medrano wrote:

Matrix Dragon wrote:

The way you can tell that something went wrong with the shifter is that they had to fill in its level progression table with reminders that your AC increases by +1 every four levels. If the monk didn't need that, then the only reason the shifter has it is to hide the fact that they aren't getting any new abilities.

I haven't seen the shifter yet, but I feel compelled to point out that the monk does have the reminder. They just put it in an 'AC bonus' column.

Good point! I'll edit my comment to avoid misleading people.

Entirely fair. I've pretty much decided to wait to see the shifter before making any decisions for myself. If it isn't good enough, I'll probably use it as a chassis to make my own.

But when parts of a class out perform a entire class...

Then maybe it's those parts that have the issue.

Comparing parts of a class to a full class isn't a fair comparison. (Which class is being unfairly compared is another matter entirely.)

How isn't it fair? We do it all the time. What class does skills best, which class gets the most out of channel, which class does x best...

Why would aspects get a pass? Because it isn't favorable to the shifter? I think comparing aspects and wildshape to other classes that get it is quite fair and should be expected.

Painful Bugger wrote:

But when parts of a class out perform a entire class...

Then maybe it's those parts that have the issue.

Or maybe the other around. Really makes you think.

I don't think it does. I think it just reinforces peoples biases.

How isn't it fair?

Mostly by being half-true, hence the discussion that ensued. Had you said "longer than the base hunter but shorter than a companion-less hunter" I doubt anyone would have disagreed with the comparison.

Uh, it gets Track, Wild Shape, and Final Aspect on all the levels it gets its AC boost.

I didn't mean to say that they aren't getting something on those levels. I was just pointing out that the Shifter's ability list is so *thin* compared to most other classes that they had to put those defensive bonuses on the main ability column.

It is like Paizo thought that wildshape was such a powerful ability that a full BAB character didn't need anything else. The problem is that there are already several other full BAB classes that have a version of wildshape (beast shape spells) in addition to all the other abilities that their class has.

I don't think it does. I think it just reinforces peoples biases.

graystone wrote:

How isn't it fair?

Mostly by being half-true, hence the discussion that ensued. Had you said "longer than the base hunter but shorter than a companion-less hunter" I doubt anyone would have disagreed with the comparison.

When I POINT OUT the features actual wording and then point out it's about a petless hunter? The person I quoted listed the base hunters duration. how did I NOT do what you suggested?

"Forester archetype acts as if their pet was dead." So, I did that and you still disagreed... Is that goalpost heavy to carry/move?

So, Is that goalpost heavy to carry/move?

You can drag or push 5x your max load. ;)

And druids have pretty extreme loads in wildshape.

When I POINT OUT the features actual wording and then point out it's about a petless hunter? The person I quoted listed the base hunters duration. how did I NOT do what you suggested?

The person you responded to was talking to Dragon78.

Speaking of the Forester, would it be allowed/possible to get a level by level breakdown of said archetype? Because I'm not kidding when I say this is my new favorite. This is everything I want in a class. Bonus combat feats, the first six levels of Druid spells (only sorcerer/wizard would be better to me), innate self buffing... I love this thing.

Also, this might be a dumb request, but could the elementalist shifter's attacks be explained a little more? Does it scale? Is it 'pure energy' damage? Etc...

Speaking of the Forester, would it be allowed/possible to get a level by level breakdown of said archetype? Because I'm not kidding when I say this is my new favorite. This is everything I want in a class. Bonus combat feats, the first six levels of Druid spells (only sorcerer/wizard would be better to me), innate self buffing... I love this thing.

Also, this might be a dumb request, but could the elementalist shifter's attacks be explained a little more? Does it scale? Is it 'pure energy' damage? Etc...

Level-by-level breakdowns aren’t allowed before the book is out, I’m afraid.

Luthorne wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

Aspects- works like hunter's animal aspects but much shorter duration plus add on set form.

Erm?

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Animal Focus (Su): At 1st level, a hunter can apply the aspect of an animal to herself as a swift action. She must select one type of animal to emulate, gaining a bonus or a special ability based on the type of animal emulated and her hunter level. The hunter can use this ability for a number of minutes per day equal to her level.

Edit: The hunter actually gets shorter total duration than the shifter does for its focuses, since they can use it for 3 + level minutes instead of just level minutes.

"If the hunter’s animal companion is dead, the hunter can apply her companion’s animal focus to herself instead of her animal companion. This is in addition to the normal one she can choose, and (as with a companion’s focus) remains in effect until the hunter changes it instead of counting against her minutes per day."

Forester archetype acts as if their pet was dead. All day is longer than 3+level min/day...

I assumed that that when Dragon78 was talking about the hunter's having a longer duration, he was referring to the default hunter...and that if he was talking about a hunter who murdered their animal companion or an archetype, he would have specified.

Edit: Edited for clarity.

Speaking of the Forester, would it be allowed/possible to get a level by level breakdown of said archetype? Because I'm not kidding when I say this is my new favorite. This is everything I want in a class. Bonus combat feats, the first six levels of Druid spells (only sorcerer/wizard would be better to me), innate self buffing... I love this thing.

Also, this might be a dumb request, but could the elementalist shifter's attacks be explained a little more? Does it scale? Is it 'pure energy' damage? Etc...

It is possible, but discouraged until the print edition is on the shelf. Sorry.

I believe they are slam attacks with energy damage in addition...not absolutely certain.

Speaking of the Forester, would it be allowed/possible to get a level by level breakdown of said archetype? Because I'm not kidding when I say this is my new favorite. This is everything I want in a class. Bonus combat feats, the first six levels of Druid spells (only sorcerer/wizard would be better to me), innate self buffing... I love this thing.

Also, this might be a dumb request, but could the elementalist shifter's attacks be explained a little more? Does it scale? Is it 'pure energy' damage? Etc...

Yes.

That's fine. And fair. How do I access it? If I subscribe and get the PDF only, will I see my copy now? Because I'll spend the 10 bucks for that, no problem. But if I only get to see it now by subscribing and buying the book...

Mbertorch wrote:

Speaking of the Forester, would it be allowed/possible to get a level by level breakdown of said archetype? Because I'm not kidding when I say this is my new favorite. This is everything I want in a class. Bonus combat feats, the first six levels of Druid spells (only sorcerer/wizard would be better to me), innate self buffing... I love this thing.

Also, this might be a dumb request, but could the elementalist shifter's attacks be explained a little more? Does it scale? Is it 'pure energy' damage? Etc...

Yes.

Yes it's a dumb request?

If you subscribe you get a free PDF when it ships, which will probably be awhile now. There's isn't a PDF only option.

If you're just wanting the PDF then it goes up on the 15th, the street date.

I assumed that that when Dragon78 was talking about the hunter's having a longer duration, he was referring to the default hunter...and that if he was talking about a hunter who murdered their animal companion or an archetype, he would have specified.

Edit: Edited for clarity.

To be perfectly fair to Dragon, he's technically "right" about even default Hunter having a longer duration, because it is in fact "all day" when applied to your animal companion. The self-buff is pretty much a ribbon tied on to it, and people are upset that the Shifter seems to have only gotten the ribbon and not the meat it was tied to.

Luthorne wrote:

I assumed that that when Dragon78 was talking about the hunter's having a longer duration, he was referring to the default hunter...and that if he was talking about a hunter who murdered their animal companion or an archetype, he would have specified.

Edit: Edited for clarity.

To be perfectly fair to Dragon, he's technically "right" about even default Hunter having a longer duration, because it is in fact "all day" when applied to your animal companion. The self-buff is pretty much a ribbon tied on to it, and people are upset that the Shifter seems to have only gotten the ribbon and not the meat it was tied to.

Technically correct, the best kind of correct?

Given the way the ability was phrased, I always felt that the self-buff was in fact the "meat" of the ability, with the ability to grant those buffs all the time to your much weaker animal companion was the "ribbon", personally, to use your terminology.

Speaking of the Forester, would it be allowed/possible to get a level by level breakdown of said archetype? Because I'm not kidding when I say this is my new favorite. This is everything I want in a class. Bonus combat feats, the first six levels of Druid spells (only sorcerer/wizard would be better to me), innate self buffing... I love this thing.

Also, this might be a dumb request, but could the elementalist shifter's attacks be explained a little more? Does it scale? Is it 'pure energy' damage? Etc...

Elemental Strike is bonus elemental damage added to otherwise normal attacks. This bonus damage scales with Shifter level.

Hopefully I did not say too much here.

And druids have pretty extreme loads in wildshape.

graystone wrote:

When I POINT OUT the features actual wording and then point out it's about a petless hunter? The person I quoted listed the base hunters duration. how did I NOT do what you suggested?

The person you responded to was talking to Dragon78.

Why would that matter. EVERYTHING you suggested was needed for you to "doubt anyone would have disagreed" was there. Yet you disagreed...

I assumed that that when Dragon78 was talking about the hunter's having a longer duration, he was referring to the default hunter...and that if he was talking about a hunter who murdered their animal companion or an archetype, he would have specified.

Edit: Edited for clarity.

And I added to his point. I assume hunter includes it's archetypes, and even that's not for some reason, the base "default hunter" includes a dead animal clause. So even if it wasn't his point, it's a natural extension of it.

Verzen wrote:

Mbertorch wrote:

Speaking of the Forester, would it be allowed/possible to get a level by level breakdown of said archetype? Because I'm not kidding when I say this is my new favorite. This is everything I want in a class. Bonus combat feats, the first six levels of Druid spells (only sorcerer/wizard would be better to me), innate self buffing... I love this thing.

Also, this might be a dumb request, but could the elementalist shifter's attacks be explained a little more? Does it scale? Is it 'pure energy' damage? Etc...

Yes.

Yes it's a dumb request?

No. It scales and it's "pure energy" .... added on top of any melee attacks you deal. Tops off at 6d6.

I am really proud of that feat, and am excited that the PDT liked it enough to keep it.

I am too, though I'll like never use it since I won't play such a flavor restricted version. It really patches one problem the "Unchained" Summiner class had though, so good job. ^_^

Okay. Thanks for the answers. I really appreciate it everyone.

Why would that matter.

Because I missed that and conflated his words with yours.

Luthorne wrote:

I assumed that that when Dragon78 was talking about the hunter's having a longer duration, he was referring to the default hunter...and that if he was talking about a hunter who murdered their animal companion or an archetype, he would have specified.

Edit: Edited for clarity.

And I added to his point. I assume hunter includes it's archetypes, and even that's not for some reason, the base "default hunter" includes a dead animal clause. So even if it wasn't his point, it's a natural extension of it.

I was saying that one of his points, as stated, was incorrect. That's it. Saying that under certain unstated circumstances it could be viewed of as correct if you dispose of a class feature does not seem to be relevant. I was not making any commentary as to how useful that class feature is or is not or whether or not you should kill animals for personal power.

And I certainly don't assume that talking about a class includes talking about all of its archetypes. If I said, for example, that I like playing monks because it gives me an excuse to freely dump Charisma, and someone told me I was wrong because the scaled fist exists, well. Or because Perform was a class skills for monks...

Since Mark brought up the shifter archetypes, I wanted to note that I never really intended for the fiendflesh shifter to be evil only. Maybe any nongood, but I didn't originally have any alignment restrictions in there because I wanted everybody to be able to play with it (especially PFS folks).

That said, I can absolutely see why they chose to make it that way because of the nature of emulating all manner of fiends. But for a non-PFS game, GMs shouldn't worry about removing the alignment restriction (or modifying it to any nongood) for their players. It wouldn't upset mechanical balance in any way.

The shifter is really disappointing. What one would expect of the shifter:
-Be the best at wildshaping;
-Having unique shifting tricks for combat, like shifting in mid-action to dodge or make special attacks;
-Natural attacks that are better than minor racial traits (some races receive 1d4 claws for free);
-Precision boosts to put it on par with other martial classes.
-Unique defenses against natural threats.

I would give it a minor animal form at 1st level (kitsunes get it);
a choice of natural weapon;
some permanent options of improvement, like eidolon evolutions;
scaling bonus to attack and damage with natural weapons;
iterative attacks with natural weapons;
an increasing natural armor bonus;
something like stalwart for fortitude saves;
Wildshape with free form changes within the duration, with all the progression of the druid, hybrid forms, were forms, and specific forms with unlimited duration;
the minor aspect would definitely have unlimited duration. If I wanted to keep note of durations, I would play a caster.

Just my opinion on the class.

graystone wrote:

Why would that matter.

Because I missed that and conflated his words with yours.

Ah, ok then. I guess I could have worded it better then.

I was saying that one of his points, as stated, was incorrect. That's it.

And I was just pointing out that depending on the circumstances he was correct. That's it. Every single hunter has the option to not have a pet and 2 archetypes have no pet to start with: as such it's a valid point to make.

And I certainly don't assume that talking about a class includes talking about all of its archetypes. If I said, for example, that I like playing monks because it gives me an excuse to freely dump Charisma, and someone told me I was wrong because the scaled fist exists, well. Or because Perform was a class skills for monks...

We're talking about apples and oranges. Every hunter can get all day aspects while only a few monks can get Cha to abilities. Even taking your example, I don't see anything wrong with pointing out that not all monks want to dump Cha: Not every comment like that is a comment to disprove you per se but pointing out that the answer isn't universally correct.

Just wanted to drop in here and quickly say that Ultimate Wilderness is everything I hoped it would be. The Shifter is AMAZING and I can't wait to play one!

Here’s a question for all you with the book: would the class be stronger or weaker if the Major and Minor forms functioned, “as a druid’s wild shape” and “the hunter’s animal aspects” respectively?

I think my favorite parts of this book are the Eidolon Mount feat and the Fey Form and Ooze Form polymorph spells.

Wait, Fiendflesh is forced to be evil?

That's disappointing. I was hoping to use the archetype for a tiefling character who is able to draw on the power of his heritage to do good things. Guess that character concept is unviable.

Only in PFS play. Besides, a character concept like that is better served in a situation with a bit more role-play happening.

The shifter is really disappointing. What one would expect of the shifter:

-Be the best at wildshaping;
-Having unique shifting tricks for combat, like shifting in mid-action to dodge or make special attacks;
-Natural attacks that are better than minor racial traits (some races receive 1d4 claws for free);
-Precision boosts to put it on par with other martial classes.
-Unique defenses against natural threats.

I would give it a minor animal form at 1st level (kitsunes get it);
a choice of natural weapon;
some permanent options of improvement, like eidolon evolutions;
scaling bonus to attack and damage with natural weapons;
iterative attacks with natural weapons;
an increasing natural armor bonus;
something like stalwart for fortitude saves;
Wildshape with free form changes within the duration, with all the progression of the druid, hybrid forms, were forms, and specific forms with unlimited duration;
the minor aspect would definitely have unlimited duration. If I wanted to keep note of durations, I would play a caster.

Just my opinion on the class.

Now I gotta admit, that sounds like the perfect breakdown of what I would want from the Shifter class. That's great!

The hunter's animal aspect has an unlimited duration for it's animal companion. well the shifter is it's own pet so why not an unlimited duration for it;)

Only in PFS play.

Not just PFS but any game that actually follows RAW by default. It requires HOUSE-RULING to allow a non-evil one. So for a lot of non-PFS game, yes you'll be forced to be evil if you play one.

Not just PFS but any game that actually follows RAW by default. It requires HOUSE-RULING to allow a non-evil one. So for a lot of non-PFS game, yes you'll be forced to be evil if you play one.

I strongly dislike rulings and game design based on PFS, the "no fun allowed" crowd.

graystone wrote:

Not just PFS but any game that actually follows RAW by default. It requires HOUSE-RULING to allow a non-evil one. So for a lot of non-PFS game, yes you'll be forced to be evil if you play one.

I strongly dislike rulings and game design based on PFS, the "no fun allowed" crowd.

I'll agree with that. They have there own set of houserules, so I wish more things were built [or ruled/FAQ'd] for pathfinder as a whole and let PFS allow/disallow what it wants. It seems backwards to force rules into the more restrictive environment IMO.

I'm not sure Fiendflesh being evil has anything to do with PFS though. It could just be a dev slapped it on because it 'looked' evil.

It is like Paizo thought that wildshape was such a powerful ability that a full BAB character didn't need anything else. The problem is that there are already several other full BAB classes that have a version of wildshape (beast shape spells) in addition to all the other abilities that their class has.

The big difference between the spells and the real thing is a duration that amounts to action economy. The spells are so short you almost need to use them as your first action in combat. A druid can pop into their favorite combat form for 28 hours a day and pounce grab rake on round 1 of the combat.

graystone wrote:

Not just PFS but any game that actually follows RAW by default. It requires HOUSE-RULING to allow a non-evil one. So for a lot of non-PFS game, yes you'll be forced to be evil if you play one.

I strongly dislike rulings and game design based on PFS, the "no fun allowed" crowd.

I genuinely have no idea why you're assuming that the decision to make it evil is due to PFS. Did you consider that the book was worked on by all sorts of people not even on the PFS team and they just decided that it seemed more like an evil thing?

Seriously though, this actually makes no sense. If they didn't want it to be in PFS all they had to do was say it's not legal in the Additional Resources. Saying that they made the archetype evil for PFS reasons is just silly and completely unsupported by anything resembling fact.

I really like that elemental shifter. I totally might try that out. If the elemental damage is per melee attack, then TWF or getting claws (kind of ironic...) is better to make use of it, right?

Matrix Dragon wrote:

It is like Paizo thought that wildshape was such a powerful ability that a full BAB character didn't need anything else. The problem is that there are already several other full BAB classes that have a version of wildshape (beast shape spells) in addition to all the other abilities that their class has.

The big difference between the spells and the real thing is a duration that amounts to action economy. The spells are so short you almost need to use them as your first action in combat. A druid can pop into their favorite combat form for 28 hours a day and pounce grab rake on round 1 of the combat.

Well, I mentioned beast shape spells in that quote, but there are also several Full Bab classes or archtypes that can either get Beast Shape as a free action as a part of rage, or have all day duration beast shapes at level 1. Each has its own durations and limitations, but for most purposes they essentially can do everything the shifter can in addition to having their own class features.

Edit: I will admit that most of those classes and archetypes only have access to a single form, so at least the shifter has that over them. That is, if you don't count the Arcane Bloodrager's insane free Beast Shape IV at level 16 :)

graystone wrote:

Not just PFS but any game that actually follows RAW by default. It requires HOUSE-RULING to allow a non-evil one. So for a lot of non-PFS game, yes you'll be forced to be evil if you play one.

I strongly dislike rulings and game design based on PFS, the "no fun allowed" crowd.

Did you ever try PFS or are you just projecting? :)

Speaking of other classes, how long do you think it'll be before the Agatheil Vigilante gets hit with the nerf bomb? It wouldn't be the first time a similar, more balanced, option got nerfed so the new thing had a spot.

Painful Bugger wrote:

graystone wrote:

Not just PFS but any game that actually follows RAW by default. It requires HOUSE-RULING to allow a non-evil one. So for a lot of non-PFS game, yes you'll be forced to be evil if you play one.

I strongly dislike rulings and game design based on PFS, the "no fun allowed" crowd.

Did you ever try PFS or are you just projecting? :)

I've tried it as well as various forms of organized play for different forms of DND for the past 15 years. Thank you for asking? Got any other questions?

One errata that they could make that wouldn't drastically change the class writeup but would have an enormous impact on its reputation as a shifter:

"A Shifter in one of their Wild Shape forms can change to any other of their available Wild Shape forms as a move action without consuming uses per day of Wild Shape."

Gorbacz wrote:

Painful Bugger wrote:

graystone wrote:

Not just PFS but any game that actually follows RAW by default. It requires HOUSE-RULING to allow a non-evil one. So for a lot of non-PFS game, yes you'll be forced to be evil if you play one.

I strongly dislike rulings and game design based on PFS, the "no fun allowed" crowd.

Did you ever try PFS or are you just projecting? :)

I've tried it as well as various forms of organized play for different forms of DND for the past 15 years. Thank you for asking? Got any other questions?

Of course. What was it that made you call at "no fun allowed" crowd? Was it any different from any other OP forms for the past 15 years?