Pathfinder Player Companion: Divine Anthology (PFRPG)

Zaister wrote:

It seems the Divine Fighting Technique feat in this book is slightly different from the one from Weapon Master's Handbook. I wonder if this intentional, and which version should actually be used?

It's intentional. They are similar things, but not identical things. Use the version attached to the book from which you took the technique.

That's.... really REALLY bad for people trying to program this for tools like HeroLab (or any VTT that maintains your character for you, etc.).

If they are intended to be "similar but not identical", then they should have different names, not the same name. Precedent says that a new version of a Feat of the same name replaces the prior version.

Computers are really REALLY bad with "this means A sometimes, and B other times". And so are (we) programmers. :)

Hero Lab shouldn't have too much trouble with it, for a very simple reason: they put all of the Divine Fighting Styles in as separate feats. ^_^

(That's how I recognized the discrepancy so quickly, in fact; I'm used to seeing Cayden's style in the options for every CG character I make.)

Kal,

You mean that one style feat from Melee Tactics?

An unfortunate realization I had: Desna's technique means we'll never, ever get a Chaotic Good paladin archetype, because if a Desna worshiper could get Divine Grace, it would officially mean you could make the ultimate Charisma character. 1 level of Loracle for Cha to AC, Desnan paladin 2 gets Divine Grace, Noble Scion of War for initiative, Desna's divine fighting technique for Cha to attack and damage. Then you go Bard x, spam versatile performances, and for your Int based skills, take Dance of the Peacock. I call it a Crying Bastard, because it's a multiclassed abomination and it's just so very SAD.

Kal,

You mean that one style feat from Melee Tactics?

Sorry, my language was inaccurate. I was referring to the Divine Fighting Techniques from Weapon Master's Handbook.

Oops. ^_^

Kal,

Right! That one. I knew sort of what you're talking about. But I forgot which handbook.

James Jacobs wrote:

Zaister wrote:

It seems the Divine Fighting Technique feat in this book is slightly different from the one from Weapon Master's Handbook. I wonder if this intentional, and which version should actually be used?

It's intentional. They are similar things, but not identical things. Use the version attached to the book from which you took the technique.

That's.... really REALLY bad for people trying to program this for tools like HeroLab (or any VTT that maintains your character for you, etc.).

If they are intended to be "similar but not identical", then they should have different names, not the same name. Precedent says that a new version of a Feat of the same name replaces the prior version.

Computers are really REALLY bad with "this means A sometimes, and B other times". And so are (we) programmers. :)

People in general a really bad with that.

An unfortunate realization I had: Desna's technique means we'll never, ever get a Chaotic Good paladin archetype, because if a Desna worshiper could get Divine Grace, it would officially mean you could make the ultimate Charisma character. 1 level of Loracle for Cha to AC, Desnan paladin 2 gets Divine Grace, Noble Scion of War for initiative, Desna's divine fighting technique for Cha to attack and damage. Then you go Bard x, spam versatile performances, and for your Int based skills, take Dance of the Peacock. I call it a Crying Bastard, because it's a multiclassed abomination and it's just so very SAD.

That came up when I told my friends about it, but we reached a simple conclusion: if there is a CG Paladin archetype, it will trade out Divine Grace, solving the problem. (All it lacks is CG-compatible undead for Cha to hp.)

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Ah! I got developed by THE James Jacobs?!

faints

I had a similar reaction with Haunted Heroes Handbook. (Also with Paths of the Righteous, but I knew it going in.)

Mr. Jacobs is a delight to work for. ^_^

Wait, James developed Haunted Heroes?!

I'VE ALREADY BEEN DEVELOPED BY JAMES JACOBS?!

Isabelle Lee wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Ah! I got developed by THE James Jacobs?!

faints

I had a similar reaction with Haunted Heroes Handbook. (Also with Paths of the Righteous, but I knew it going in.)

Mr. Jacobs is a delight to work for. ^_^

Wait, James developed Haunted Heroes?!

I'VE ALREADY BEEN DEVELOPED BY JAMES JACOBS?!

SURPRISE!

A very good book it is, too...just like this one! Have I mentioned how much I absolutely love the Player Companion Series?!

I would be interested in any feed back people have on the section on the Majestic Book of the Prime Ascended.

Ya know, because of reasons and stuff.

I would be interested in any feed back people have on the section on the Majestic Book of the Prime Ascended.

Ya know, because of reasons and stuff.

Bunch of faith traits.

More cool stuff in the book! My three favorite apocryphal subdomains.

Alchemy subdomain for Magic/Artifice (note- all the apocryphal subdomains require a trait): 3+Wis times per day, convert a spell (of level up to 1 + 1/4 your level) into an "potion". Great for Norgorber. "But he doesn't get those domains!" They make exceptions for fitting combinations.

Hubris subdomain for Glory/Nobility: Intimidate as a class skill, and 1/6 times per day nag your deity to boost the DC and SR penetration of a spell with a reduced effect on a save. Saving now negates it. If everybody resists it, you must loudly apologize to your deity for bothering them or sit in magical time-out.

Medicine subdomain for Healing: 3+Wis/day, treat deadly wounds in a minute and roll twice, take better on the heal check. Cool for a player that want their Cleric to be a little more hands-on.

More cool stuff in the book! My three favorite apocryphal subdomains.

Alchemy subdomain for Magic/Artifice (note- all the apocryphal subdomains require a trait): 3+Wis times per day, convert a spell (of level up to 1 + 1/4 your level) into an "potion". Great for Norgorber. "But he doesn't get those domains!" They make exceptions for fitting combinations.

Hubris subdomain for Glory/Nobility: Intimidate as a class skill, and 1/6 times per day nag your deity to boost the DC and SR penetration of a spell with a reduced effect on a save. Saving now negates it. If everybody resists it, you must loudly apologize to your deity for bothering them or sit in magical time-out.

Medicine subdomain for Healing: 3+Wis/day, treat deadly wounds in a minute and roll twice, take better on the heal check. Cool for a player that want their Cleric to be a little more hands-on.

Glad you enjoy those subdomains, QuidEst. The Hubris subdomain was a big hit with the editors, whom I found all laughing over it one afternoon.

Yeah I can see how that would be a kind of riotous laughter filled thing, especially after if everyone saves.

More cool stuff in the book! My three favorite apocryphal subdomains.

Alchemy subdomain for Magic/Artifice (note- all the apocryphal subdomains require a trait): 3+Wis times per day, convert a spell (of level up to 1 + 1/4 your level) into an "potion". Great for Norgorber. "But he doesn't get those domains!" They make exceptions for fitting combinations.

Hubris subdomain for Glory/Nobility: Intimidate as a class skill, and 1/6 times per day nag your deity to boost the DC and SR penetration of a spell with a reduced effect on a save. Saving now negates it. If everybody resists it, you must loudly apologize to your deity for bothering them or sit in magical time-out.

Medicine subdomain for Healing: 3+Wis/day, treat deadly wounds in a minute and roll twice, take better on the heal check. Cool for a player that want their Cleric to be a little more hands-on.

Big fan of all of those. Thanks for sharing those tidbits!

What are the other Apocryphal Domains, and what can they do?

What are the other Apocryphal Domains, and what can they do?

There are fourteen of them, so it'd be a bit long to go through them all. That's why I put up my top three!

What's the code for Shizuru? Curious given how little she's been detailed before.

Zaister wrote:

It seems the Divine Fighting Technique feat in this book is slightly different from the one from Weapon Master's Handbook. I wonder if this intentional, and which version should actually be used?

It's intentional. They are similar things, but not identical things. Use the version attached to the book from which you took the technique.

This might be worth noting in a campaign clarifications for PFS.

So who else thinks the Desnan Divine Fighting technique is horribly OP?

I mean for one it's by far the easiest way to get one stat to both attack and damage rolls with a thrown weapon. STR and Dex based characters have to jump through hoops to accomplish this. Good looking ones just get it for free... I mean seriously we will likely see Charisma 20 fighters soon because of this feat.

Then Let's see what all you can do with Charisma now in one build with a bit of multiclassing (or even without):

- Irrepressible for Charisma to most Will saves
- Or if you prefer to spend feats: Steadfast Personality
- Charisma to Initiative via Noble Scion
- Charisma to Knowledge Skills as an Oracle of Lore
- A charisma based Inspiration pool for Psychic searcher Oracles
- Dodge Bonus to Charisma from Osyluth's guile
- Charisma to AC and Reflex saves from a number of Oracle mysteries
- A Ki-Pool for Ninjas
- A panache Pool for Swashbucklers

The only saving grace of the feat is the CG requirement which rules out Divine Grace.

James Jacobs wrote:

Zaister wrote:

It seems the Divine Fighting Technique feat in this book is slightly different from the one from Weapon Master's Handbook. I wonder if this intentional, and which version should actually be used?

It's intentional. They are similar things, but not identical things. Use the version attached to the book from which you took the technique.

This might be worth noting in a campaign clarifications for PFS.

Ms. Zayas-Palmer has been made aware of it. ^_^

So who else thinks the Desnan Divine Fighting technique is horribly OP?

I mean for one it's by far the easiest way to get one stat to both attack and damage rolls with a thrown weapon. STR and Dex based characters have to jump through hoops to accomplish this. Good looking ones just get it for free... I mean seriously we will likely see Charisma 20 fighters soon because of this feat.

Then Let's see what all you can do with Charisma now in one build with a bit of multiclassing (or even without):

- Irrepressible for Charisma to most Will saves
- Or if you prefer to spend feats: Steadfast Personality
- Charisma to Initiative via Noble Scion
- Charisma to Knowledge Skills as an Oracle of Lore
- A charisma based Inspiration pool for Psychic searcher Oracles
- Dodge Bonus to Charisma from Osyluth's guile
- Charisma to AC and Reflex saves from a number of Oracle mysteries
- A Ki-Pool for Ninjas
- A panache Pool for Swashbucklers

The only saving grace of the feat is the CG requirement which rules out Divine Grace.

So let's see what all of that takes you:

Three Feats (9th Level, with DFT being taken at 3rd unless human): Divine Fighting Technique, Dodge, Steadfast Personality, Noble Scion, Osyluth's Guile

2 Levels of Psychic Searcher Oracle of Lore.

2 levels of Ninja

1 level of swashbuckler

4 levels of whatever you want.

8 ranks in Bluff

Ignoring the four variable levels for all of that, pretty much ALL of your feats are spoken for (unless you grab combat trick / weapon training with your ninja trick). And what do you —really— get from all of that? You are basically stuck with light armor because of your swashbuckler restrictions, you get Charisma to attack and damage with your star knife, but you don't have any abilities that can further augment its damage or your ability to throw it at people. You have a base attack bonus +3 at 5th level (which is on-par for a 5th-level medium BAB character), a Fort of +0, a Ref of +6, a Will of +3, and a small smattering of skill ranks, plus a small smattering of spells.

And this isn't including the fact that Osyluth's Guile only triggers when you use fighting defensively or total defense (so a –3 penalty with that starknife or no attack at all) and that all of your Charisma to AC is shut down when you're flat-footed—maybe you want to take 2 more levels of ninja to help with that of your four, but then of course that means you have fewer feats to do anything with.

Yeah, this build is very Single Ability-Dependent, but what exactly does it do well? It doesn't cast very well, it doesn't do a lot of damage. Its basically defensive, but opportune parry and riposte isn't going to save an effectively medium BAB character. This is one of those build ideas that seems really OP in your head, but on paper its really ... meh? Mostly because being a paladin / antipaladin is what makes Charisma so powerful. (Divine grace with Charisma to AC and attack rolls via smite is what makes a Charisma build nasty.)

Matthew Morris wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Zaister wrote:

It seems the Divine Fighting Technique feat in this book is slightly different from the one from Weapon Master's Handbook. I wonder if this intentional, and which version should actually be used?

It's intentional. They are similar things, but not identical things. Use the version attached to the book from which you took the technique.

This might be worth noting in a campaign clarifications for PFS.

Ms. Zayas-Palmer has been made aware of it. ^_^

Thanks Kalindlara.

Remind me again, Erastil's divine fighting technique would stack with Advanced Ranged Weapon Mastery or not?

...

The list above was not so much a build as outlining the different options available to the Charisma 20 people among us. The absurdest of all of those undoubtedly being a single feat that lets you use charisma for attack and damage for both melee and ranged attacks with an admittedly non-optimal weapon without any further (non-fluff) prerequisites.

Imo it is unbalanced for two reasons:

It makes it super easy to splash combat competency into CHA based casters. Let's take a first level oracle with the Sidestep revelation and this feat. Assign his 20 point buy like so: STR 10 DEX 7 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 10 CHA 20. With a heavy shield and his or her trusty starknife this character has an AC of 20 (in light armor...), after casting divine favor deals damage almost like a full martial and can pull all that off while still maxing out his casting stat. Take one more level and you can also boss skills with your inspiration pool. Why should one character be able to do all those things when others have to make sacrifices to get their point buy right?

It makes Charisma the best stat for thrown weapon characters. While this is a niche concept, the main reason why this has been the case was that you needed a ton of feats and had to invest in both DEX and STR (unless you invested in pricy items which aren't accessible for most of your career i.e. belt of might hurling or agile daggers). Further boosting damage via precise strike (from flying blade) and or Startoss style makes this a competive build now. Oh and that problem that you had to decide between a stat bump item and the essential blink back belt. A wash as your attack and damage is handily enhanced by a headband...

Considering how much effort Paizo has invested in nerfing the hell out of Slashing Grace it strikes me as plenty naive to print this feat.

I LOVE this book and everything in it! Paladin codes for minor gods?! Archetypes that let you pick obedience tracks besides Evangelist without giving up stuff like spellcasting (especially for warpriests)?! Apocrypha and heresies?! SOLD! Thank all of you writers and devs for this amazing book, THANK YOU! :D

Considering how much effort Paizo has invested in nerfing the hell out of Slashing Grace it strikes me as plenty naive to print this feat.

It might almost lead one to suspect that there are multiple developers at Paizo, and that they have varying philosophies of game design. ^_^

In all honesty: yeah, it's pretty bonkers. I would never have expected that to see print. (I have more to say about this in a few months' time.)

On the other hand... what will we do in this hellish new world where throwing starknives might be considered an effective method of combat? :O

In all honesty: yeah, it's pretty bonkers. I would never have expected that to see print. (I have more to say about this in a few months' time.)

On the other hand... what will we do in this hellish new world where throwing starknives might be considered an effective method of combat? :O

We'll considering that the flying blade was one of the better Swashbuckler Archetypes before this got printed and Swashbucklers are supposed to be all about Charisma to me it's the obvious choice for a martial switch hitting Starknife character. But fighter would also work fine and dandy.

The other option is something silly with Oracle or Bard Levels. Pretty sure that Oracle is more broken due to more charisma synergy. Psychic searcher oracles were strong before this came out. Now a Psychic Searcher Oracle of Lore is basically a party of one.

I sure hope that Paizo doesn't nerf the starknife feat. This is pretty much the first time ever that it has been possible to use starknives in a manner that is both thematically effective and effective. You still have to jump through all sorts of hoops if you want to make a throwing weapon build out of this character though.

At least that's what it seems like from what I'm reading here. I *still* haven't gotten my shipment notice, so I haven't gotten access to my pdf yet.

Anything fun in here for followers of Groetus ?

So...I take then Erastil didn't get a Divine Fighting Technique then?

So...I take then Erastil didn't get a Divine Fighting Technique then?

He got one: Erastil's Distracting Shot.

It's just not as sexy as the Charisma train to Starknifetown. ^_^

Apparently not Kal. I was asking cause my next character (due to be in Giantslayer) will be an old Ulfen ranger who favors Erastil. Thus I thought I'd try to get that if possible or if it worked with my idea for him.

Apparently not Kal. I was asking cause my next character (due to be in Giantslayer) will be an old Ulfen ranger who favors Erastil. Thus I thought I'd try to get that if possible or if it worked with my idea for him.

As long as you like the idea of taking shots that improve your allies' AC against the target's attacks, then... yes, I think you'll find it very useful.

If you're lawful good and have the archery style, you can even pick it up at levels 2 and/or 10 as your combat style feats! While it doesn't explicitly allow the following, if you're using Erastil's ranger style from Inner Sea Combat, I'd allow it there as well. ^_^

Kal,

I plan on being 100% archery all the time. So yeah that's on the list.
Along with Weapon Mastery.

Here is some more information in regard to how Deific Obedience is enhanced by this book:

Diverse Obedience feat: Requires at least 5th level for skill requirement. Boons are received at 10th, 14th, and 18th levels and may be freely selected from among all three types.

Divine Champion (Warpriest archetype): Gains Deific Obedience as bonus feat at 3rd level and receives boons from Sentinel rather than Exalted list.

Divine Paragon (Cleric archetype): Gains Deific Obedience as a bonus feat at 1st level and receives boons at 5th, 11th, and 14th levels. Each boon may be chosen from any of the three types.

All of these options require an exact alignment with your deity.

Alexander Augunas wrote:

...

The list above was not so much a build as outlining the different options available to the Charisma 20 people among us. The absurdest of all of those undoubtedly being a single feat that lets you use charisma for attack and damage for both melee and ranged attacks with an admittedly non-optimal weapon without any further (non-fluff) prerequisites.

Imo it is unbalanced for two reasons:

It makes it super easy to splash combat competency into CHA based casters. Let's take a first level oracle with the Sidestep revelation and this feat. Assign his 20 point buy like so: STR 10 DEX 7 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 10 CHA 20. With a heavy shield and his or her trusty starknife this character has an AC of 20 (in light armor...), after casting divine favor deals damage almost like a full martial and can pull all that off while still maxing out his casting stat. Take one more level and you can also boss skills with your inspiration pool. Why should one character be able to do all those things when others have to make sacrifices to get their point buy right?

It makes Charisma the best stat for thrown weapon characters. While this is a niche concept, the main reason why this has been the case was that you needed a ton of feats and had to invest in both DEX and STR (unless you invested in pricy items which aren't accessible for most of your career i.e. belt of might hurling or agile daggers). Further boosting damage via precise strike (from flying blade) and or Startoss style makes this a competive build now. Oh and that problem that you had to decide between a stat bump item and the essential blink back belt. A wash as your attack and damage is handily enhanced by a headband...

Considering how much effort Paizo has invested in nerfing the hell out of Slashing Grace it strikes me as plenty naive to print this feat.

I may need to look at this again, but if I recall correctly, only Bards get all of these benefits for one feat (and that is only if they give up two Versatile Performances). Others have more feat taxes to get the thrown benefit.

Close, Four. Bards don't have to spend any feats if they give up two VPs. ^_^

(I'd probably take it at first level anyway, both to use it immediately and so I still got my VP at second. The level 10 one is definitely taking a VP, though.)

Close, Four. Bards don't have to spend any feats if they give up two VPs. ^_^

(I'd probably take it at first level anyway, both to use it immediately and so I still got my VP at second. The level 10 one is definitely taking a VP, though.)

Ah, I understood those VP given up fulfilled any pre-reqs and one still needed to take the feat. I DO need to look at it again.

If only the additional feats needed to make a Charisma focused Starknifer viable didn't require either some Str/Dex investment or an ability to ignore prerequisites...

If only the additional feats needed to make a Charisma focused Starknifer viable didn't require either some Str/Dex investment or an ability to ignore prerequisites...

If you build a thrower all you need is DEX 13. Those 3 points in point buy investment should be affordable for most and unless you dip Oracle will also aid your AC and REF save. The DEX requirements of TWF are far more restrictive however. But two weapon fighting isn't great for throwers anyhow as it requires you to enhance more than one weapon and multiple to hit penalties really hurt.

You also need a modicum of STR in order to wear Armor but Power Attack is rarely a good feat for builds using one handed weapons.

technarken wrote:

If only the additional feats needed to make a Charisma focused Starknifer viable didn't require either some Str/Dex investment or an ability to ignore prerequisites...

If you build a thrower all you need is DEX 13. Those 3 points in point buy investment should be affordable for most and unless you dip Oracle will also aid your AC and REF save. The DEX requirements of TWF are far more restrictive however. But two weapon fighting isn't great for throwers anyhow as it requires you to enhance more than one weapon and multiple to hit penalties really hurt.

You also need a modicum of STR in order to wear Armor but Power Attack is rarely a good feat for builds using one handed weapons.

You could also take Piranha Strike, but that requires a now-defunct Weapon Finesse.

I think the point that is being made is that the Cha to Atk and Dmg isn't as bonkers as people are making it out to be. Flying Bade with a dip in oracle is good, but it isn't going to unseat Dex to Damage or Strength to Damage. It is a fun, flavorful way to use Desna's favored weapon in a radiacally different way that happens to be a viable mechanical option. And in the long run, we should be able to add new options to the game without knee-jerking about their supposed brokenness.

Alex Mack wrote:

technarken wrote:

If only the additional feats needed to make a Charisma focused Starknifer viable didn't require either some Str/Dex investment or an ability to ignore prerequisites...

If you build a thrower all you need is DEX 13. Those 3 points in point buy investment should be affordable for most and unless you dip Oracle will also aid your AC and REF save. The DEX requirements of TWF are far more restrictive however. But two weapon fighting isn't great for throwers anyhow as it requires you to enhance more than one weapon and multiple to hit penalties really hurt.

You also need a modicum of STR in order to wear Armor but Power Attack is rarely a good feat for builds using one handed weapons.

You could also take Piranha Strike, but that requires a now-defunct Weapon Finesse.

I think the point that is being made is that the Cha to Atk and Dmg isn't as bonkers as people are making it out to be. Flying Bade with a dip in oracle is good, but it isn't going to unseat Dex to Damage or Strength to Damage. It is a fun, flavorful way to use Desna's favored weapon in a radiacally different way that happens to be a viable mechanical option. And in the long run, we should be able to add new options to the game without knee-jerking about their supposed brokenness.

Hey, I thank you for it. Bards can have nice things after all!

Alex Mack wrote:

technarken wrote:

If only the additional feats needed to make a Charisma focused Starknifer viable didn't require either some Str/Dex investment or an ability to ignore prerequisites...

If you build a thrower all you need is DEX 13. Those 3 points in point buy investment should be affordable for most and unless you dip Oracle will also aid your AC and REF save. The DEX requirements of TWF are far more restrictive however. But two weapon fighting isn't great for throwers anyhow as it requires you to enhance more than one weapon and multiple to hit penalties really hurt.

You also need a modicum of STR in order to wear Armor but Power Attack is rarely a good feat for builds using one handed weapons.

You could also take Piranha Strike, but that requires a now-defunct Weapon Finesse.

I think the point that is being made is that the Cha to Atk and Dmg isn't as bonkers as people are making it out to be. Flying Bade with a dip in oracle is good, but it isn't going to unseat Dex to Damage or Strength to Damage. It is a fun, flavorful way to use Desna's favored weapon in a radiacally different way that happens to be a viable mechanical option. And in the long run, we should be able to add new options to the game without knee-jerking about their supposed brokenness.

Yeah, Cha to attack and damage with your choice of weapon would be OP. Starknives are a weapon most builds would not otherwise even consider, due to small damage die and low crit threat range.

And, as already pointed out, it's not available for the optimal users of Cha in melee, paladins.

Axial wrote:

1) What deities in this book get paladin codes?

** spoiler omitted **

Okay, I am curious. What is the paladin code for Andoletta?

To be honest I always saw her as more of a LG witch's patron.

Huh, it might actually be possible to make an interesting starknife using charisma magus. Sure, the archetype that makes the magus charisma based is kinda bad, but it would definitely be an interesting build. Might require a one level dip into Oracle though.

Why no charisma to Atk and Dmg for Fighting Fan(s) for Geishas or even Whips for Calistria worshippers??? ;_; *runs off crying*

Very much looking forward to this book. I am playing a Revered Daughter of Paladine in a PbP game and in a home game a cleric of Gilean, always good things!