The Fifth Archdaemon

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I'll throw my two cents in; Kirthfinder has much better scaling feats/abilities, frequently tied to skill ranks or investment in skills. On a personal level, I enjoy the martial focused class design much more. There are a lot fewer feat taxes, it's easier to get in full attacks/ equivalent abilities and still stay mobile, etc. The class design is much more cohesive as well.

I'm good either way. Kirthfinder does present some compatability concerns in terms of playing nicely with the myriad other sub systems and abilities, but we wouldn't be posting interest in this game if we weren't willing to deal with some level of that anyways. Having looked at Porphya, the nicest thing about it for me was the scaling feats, but even that doesn't matter too much with the high number of feats we can pick + artifacts offering more. Mostly I'm enthused about the concept and the mechanical crunch, regardless of flavor of crunch.

I'm still interested as well. Just working on the champion melee fighter at the moment. Got way too many feats to pick from.

Echoing the others, have fun and enjoy the game! Thank you for the consideration!

Just trying to navigate the website can be confusing. Some of their linking topology is not at all intuitive. Sorry to see someone drop out, as Vrog said.

Storm Dragon wrote:

I think what he's asking is essentially for you to waive Magic/Psionic transparency for that particular ability.

He's not asking to use Psionic Power Pool points to amp his caster level in another class with those, he's asking if he can use Ki points to amp his Manifester Level (the equiavlent of caster level).

Essentially he's just asking if in those and similar Feats he can replace every instance of "caster level", "spell", etc. with "manifester level", "power", etc.

Dragon expressed this much more succintly. That's exactly what I am asking.

Sebecloki wrote:
River of Sticks wrote:
Sebecloki wrote:

Finally, a question more for my own characters, though I think a few other people were running psionics as well. If there's a mythic/epic/divine/etc ability for spells, can we assume an analogous one exists for psionics?

yes, as long as the parallel is clear. Give me an example.

Some lower power examples I was looking at: Ki Infusion, which can increase caster level by spending ki points and Magic Trick for Mage Hand. Ki infusion would be manifester level checks / spend ki for a temporary bonus to manifester level, Magic Trick would apply to Far Hand rather than Mage hand. I think there's a few more I have in my notes, but things like that. I'll have to find it, but there was an epic or divine ability (I think) that allowed concentration on spells as a free action 1/round for one spell, or something like that. The analogue would be concentration on one power 1/round, etc.
I'n not sure about this -- ki points seem more equivalent to a resource pool like grit (Swashbuckler), stamina (Fighter), or insight (Inspector). I'm not seeing the direct parallel to psionics, which are equivalent to caster resource pools of spells per day or power points (for the Spheres classes). It seems like the equivalent would be using grit or stamina to boost caster level, not psionic power points.

Erm.. Looks like I linked the wrong thing. Here's the correct link: Ki Infusion

Specifically, it's a feat that allows you to spend points from your ki pool on enhancing your arcane/divine caster level. My question was whether there could be a mechanically analogous feat doing the same thing for psionic manifester level.

Sebecloki wrote:

Finally, a question more for my own characters, though I think a few other people were running psionics as well. If there's a mythic/epic/divine/etc ability for spells, can we assume an analogous one exists for psionics?

yes, as long as the parallel is clear. Give me an example.

Some lower power examples I was looking at: Ki Infusion, which can increase caster level by spending ki points and Magic Trick for Mage Hand. Ki infusion would be manifester level checks / spend ki for a temporary bonus to manifester level, Magic Trick would apply to Far Hand rather than Mage hand. I think there's a few more I have in my notes, but things like that. I'll have to find it, but there was an epic or divine ability (I think) that allowed concentration on spells as a free action 1/round for one spell, or something like that. The analogue would be concentration on one power 1/round, etc.

Sebecloki wrote:
Tenro wrote:

1. Can the feats on artifacts be in excess of the original quantity of HOPF/Mythic HOPF?

2.1 Given that an epic feat is 1/2 (from the artifact total of 42), what is the value of a mythic feat? Of an HOPF? Of a mythic HOPF?

2.2 above you said mythic is 1/2, should we presume HOPF as 1 and Mythic HOPF as 1? Or 2?

1. No.

2.1-2.2 I'm not sure; I'd like to hear some opinions on this.

If we cannot exceed the 16 HOPF and 8 Mythic (I have no problem with that), then attaching them to an artifact should "cost" the same as the resource used to get the HOPF; a regular feat (1/4) for HOPF and a mythic feat (1/2) for Mythic HOPF. It doesn't matter if it's a personal slot or artifact slot unless being disarmed of that ability is part of your character idea.

@Sebecloki, if we are running with the artifacts at CR 42 as suggested earlier, are we also using the scale MG suggested with it? A regular feat is 1/4 a bonus, an epic feat is 1/2, a divine ability is 6 and a cosmic ability is 36?

If we are, can we a) equate a Mythic feat to the same 1/2 point of bonus cost the epic feats get, and b) use the epic feats from the 1.6 Epic Pathfinder Conversion Document?

Finally, a question more for my own characters, though I think a few other people were running psionics as well. If there's a mythic/epic/divine/etc ability for spells, can we assume an analogous one exists for psionics?

EDIT: One more question... There was never any mythic / epic material, officially published or otherwise, for Path of War (That I can find), but there was some material for Tome of Battle (3.5). ToB Stuff and ToB Epic Feats The material here is actually community homebrew rather than official 3PP, but is the only material I've found that works with higher powered games for Tome of Battle/ Path of War. Can I use some of the material from here if I run the particulars by you first?

Throwing my health together here...

Stats: Str: 8 / Dex 13 / Con 14 / Int 10 / Wis 12 / Cha 15 pre-race adjustment.

Health: 6d8 ⇒ (7, 3, 2, 2, 3, 5) = 22

Still need to make a few equipment selections and pick my feat. My original Background idea doesn't fit anymore, so I need to look a bit more on that.

EDIT: So that would be (7,5,5,5,5,5) for 32 HP, plus CON (+2 per level) and 10 HP from Fighter 1, for a total of 56 HP.

Fabian Benavente wrote:

OK, here's what we have so far...

bookworm422, female half-orc ranger horizon walker) (PC2?);
Vrog, male Canith human (dragonmarked?) artificer (party);
Trscroggs, male? warforged wizard (party);
Trscroggs, male dragonborn monk (party);
Tharivol, male dragonmarked elf bard (party); and
Two-Hands, male kalashtar fighter (arcane knight) (PC1)?

River of Stix

Did I miss anyone?

The original deadline is for Friday October 4, 2019 but I want to know who out there is still working on a PC. If no one is out there, then I may wrap it up and start the game sooner.

Those that are completed can start generating stats for me to look at if you have the time.


Game on!

@Fabian, I am going to have to relunctantly withdraw... Still very interested, but some things came up IRL and I won't be able to focus on a new game for a while. Thank you for running a game on the forums!

I've got two concepts in mind; they are a pair of fraternal twins. She's the first sword of the kings champion, as a in your face tank, damage, and debuffs. Legendary fighter / vizier/ unchained rogue / harbinger with Umbral blade and great mind and Amplifier prestige classes, and magic user :Psion.

The other concept is less well defined at this stage, and MG's concept is pretty similar - a stay in the shadows troubleshooter, tactician, party buffer and knowledge dispenser. Not necessarily doing the dirty work, but ensuring it gets done, and working for the queen. He'd be the more thoughtful, have a plan, have a contingency type of character whereas the first sword is a "run in and break the obstacle" type.

@Fabian, I like the fluff around the Keepers and think I'll go that route. I'd like to go with the College of Swords, and was wondering if there are any Fighting Styles that you would allow as thematic to include on their list? With a double scimitar both Dueling and Two Weapon Fighting don't actually do anything beneficial, which is fine if that's the way it is - I still like the rest of the class/concept.

The idea is that his patron ancestor was one of the founding warriors of their society; an almost impossible patron to "perfect". The responsibility and weight of this requirement - as well as its difficulty - is going to be one of the primary motivators for him. Whenever he uses an inspiration on Blade Flourish it will be either channeling his ancestor, or attempting to surpass him.

Monkeygod wrote:

You said 'if nobody else has objections'. I'm objecting, lol.

Some examples:

Cosmic Toughness

Your HD become D100s.


You can only be affected by one opponent each round.

Heavy Eradication

100% chance to overcome crit immunity.

Legendary Ability Score

Single ability score doubled.

Etc, etc, etc....

I say we just choose to avoid the high powered craziness as a gentleman's agreement... though to be honest, I really don't have a problem with anyone picking something from that. We aren't competing with each other, and the combats will be pretty crazy anyways. When else would we get the chance to use this kind of material?

Storm Dragon wrote:

These are the charop guidelines as they currently exist, to my knowledge:

Level 16 Gestalt
Tier 8 Mythic "gestalt" (I'm assuming this means we choose two Paths, similarly as if everyone took the Dual Path mythic Feat, but we also get double teh talents?)
16 CR worth of templates
8 "free" levels of a Prestige Class (?)
Houserules mentioned in Campaign info

Additionally we have some sort of Domain ability that effectively makes us demigods (aside Mythic)? I saw the acronym HOPF multiple times across the last 8 pages but I must have missed where it was explained what exactly that was.

Edit: Ah, I think HOPF stands for "Horrifically Overpowered Feats", then?

HOPF is Horrifically Overpowered Feat, yes. You can take 16 total, and a separate pool of 8 Mythic HOPF. You have 16 CR of templates, which can be traded out 1:1 for prestige class levels.

Up to 8 levels of prestige classes (from the 16 CR pool, from HOPF, or other methods) can be added to HD for the purposes of BAB, skills, saves, and caster/initiator/manifester/veilweaver/etc level. These additional 8 HD do not count for anything beyond those things, though; no additional ABP, no additional abilities on a "every X HD" chassis, etc.

Its also ABP +2, and the Chopping the Christmas Tree linked in the original bit. Finally, the domain/deity thing is an Immortal Handbook: Ascension thing, and most of us are still figuring it out. MonkeyGod seems to have the best idea of it?

Dotting and a question... I've loved the idea of a double bladed scimitar wielder since I read about them in Wayfinders. Would an elven Eldritch Knight with the Revenant Blade feat be acceptable? Or a Changeling Bard? I'd love to combine the two, but the double weapon is Elf only.

Jorgund is a dragonkin, a native of the city. He's been attached to the city guard for some time now, having started as a raw recruit offered the choice of starving on the street or joining the guard. It did not take long for him to get bored of walking in circles for a living, however. He began noting who had privilege and who did not, and reasoned that power - and magic - were the differentiating factors. Through a combination of luck, stubbornness, and the general greed of the denizens of the underworld, he made a pact with a fiend to gain power. He stayed with the guard, playing off his newfound abilities as if he were a sorcerer; but now he is the magical artillery that gets to go out and mess things up, and Jorgund is much happier with his life for that change.

Mechanically, Edjet Dragonkin with 1 level of fighter and then Warlock (Fiend and Blade) the rest. He fights with a staff and shield, or with fireballs. Not much room in between...

@GM, what about the spells from MHH? Are they gated by domain/circle/etc, or open to anyone with the spell on their list?

Wealth: 1d10 ⇒ 2

Another question on HP; does "whichever is better" mean that we roll, and take the higher of the average or the roll?

One last question: It's from Wayfinders, but would you allow the Ruby of the War Mage? Common, requires attunement, allows a single weapon to be used as a focus and takes 10 minutes to work.

I assume the 3d8 on the Shillelagh cantrip on the KPOGL site is a typo, and that Dragonkin get the regular 1d8 damage as in core?


@GM, would you allow the Changeling from Wayfinders? It looks like Midgard might have a "Mirror Folk" analogue in-setting, if I'm reading the references correctly.

I'd love to play a Hexblade Warlock; I was running a first level one in a game recently that got let go by the GM.

Edit: The changeling idea would likely be creating a position of influence within the Zobeck movers and shakers. If Changeling is a no-go, I'll probably go for something like a Soldier Dragonkin with the Fiend Patron with a level of multiclassed fighter at first for a dueling style and extra HP, and he would be the magical adjunct to the city guard or something similar.

Tenro wrote:
16 HD for anything and everything, with the PrC levels adding up to 8 more that provide "virtual" HD that don't advance things other than what that PrC class contains (more CL, BAB, saves, but NOT higher DCs from templates or race that are based off of HD and NOT factored in for HOPF stuff.)

This is what I meant to say. :P

I'm definitely in favor of capping at 16 for effective HD for HD scaling abilities or templates, with a max BAB of 24, max CL of 24, max IL and ML of 24, etc (not counting regular level boosting items like karma beads that normally exceed HD caps).

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Not quite the full rule list, but here's my personal cheat sheet for everything we "get" pre-choices by the player.

Basic Package Bonuses at Level 16:
+5 Competence to attack rolls, damage rolls, armor class, saving throws, and initiative (Chopping the Tree)
6 bonus feats (Chopping the Tree)
4 bonus Gift/Knack feats (Chopping the Tree)
+3 to all Attributes (Chopping the Tree)
8x +2 to one attribute; cannot be the same one in a row (Chopping the Tree)
50% chance to bypass hardness, DR, and incorporeal or ethereal miss chance (Chopping the Tree)

4x +2 to one attribute (Mythic, standard)
8x Path abilities from two paths each (Dual Path Mythic)

50 regular feats (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules, 16 levels of (1/level + fighter progression) on each side))
26 Mythic Feats (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules 8 tiers of (1/level + fighter progression) on each side) )
Elephant in the Room Feat Tax Rules (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules)
Signature Skill and Combat Stamina (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules)

No more than 8 Mythic Horrifically Overpowered Feats
No more than 16 Horrifically Overpowered Feats; Gestalt and Prestigious can be taken multiple times.

16 CR worth of templates; can trade out for PrC or Base Class levels at a 1:1 basis. Up to 8 levels of PrC progression, Gestalt, or Prestigious adds to BAB, HD, Saves, Skills, etc as well as class features (Discussion in recruitment thread)

Deflection AC +5, Ability scores +6/+4/+2 or +4 all, Natural Armor Enhancement bonus +5, Weapon Attunement +4/+3 or +5, Armor Attunement +4/+3 or +5, Resistance to Saves +5 (ABP+2)

Wealth is an open question... Per both Chopping the Tree and ABP, we should have ~ 1/2 * 1/5 = ~30,000 gp.

Monkeygod wrote:

Right now, we are 16/16/10/10, but we have 16 free levels that can be used for a PrC/base class(that isn't one of our gestalt classes) and/or templates.

We have a few options how to decide how this all works:

1) The PrC/base class only adds their class features(the special section. Ie, sneak attack, bloodlines, bonus feats, rage, etc) and do not improve HD, BAB, Saves, etc.

Assuming we go this route, I'm unsure we'll be able to face the foes you wanna throw at us.

2) The PrC/base class adds everything from their levels, however we stop gaining level based benefits at 16(more feats, ability score increases, potential for more HOPF, etc).

With this option, we should be able to fight those monsters.

3) The PrC/Base class adds *everything*, including level based benefits, but stops at 20. We still gain an extra 6 levels worth of BAB, saves, skills, etc.

This is the option I feel most comfortable as able to handle your threats.

Between the extra feats, the few more levels of boosts from ABP and Christmas Chop, and possibly four more HOPFs, I think we should be fine.

None of these options interfere with the NPC leaders still being 20/20/10/10. We end up being 16/16/8/8 + 'something', but we don't gain the capstone of our classes and we aren't gestalt with those bonus levels.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from giving the NPC leaders the +16(or more) free levels, making them that much more powerful than us.

I think 1 or 2 would be sufficient. 3 gets crazy in terms of how it interacts with everything else.

2 is at least contained; you get only the extra bits added on top last, and they don't give anything else (ABP, HD based abilities, etc).

My preference is 1; it's the simplest. Out of HD, BAB, Saves, and Skills, Saves and Skills are pure numbers; increase attributes, increase those results. BAB can be handled with Offensive Combat Training (HOF) and Mythic (HOF), allowing up to a BAB of 24-26.

HD is more complicated. Purely for HP, more CON/CHA/Etc will get you there. As will feats like Poryphra's Toughness, Akashic Essence of the Immortal, Psionics Psionic Body, etc. Actual HD based abilities (Half level + attribute DCs, pick an ability every 4 HD, etc) are the only things there isn't really an advancement for, and I do not think there should be advancement on those.

If we went with #1, I would suggest house-ruling a corollary HOF called Offensive Magic Training or something like that, affecting CL instead of BAB. I think that would be sufficient.

Just as an aside, without even trying and taking only four feats, one of them Mythic HOF Weapon Finesse, I could make my character get STR+DEX+INT to attack and damage, with +WIS when flanking and +1/2 INT as an insight bonus from Harbinger levels. Assuming even stat point buy up, thats a +23 or so in every ability, for +80 to 103ish, before BAB and other buffs. Offensive Combat Training could easily add another 22-24 to that.

Edit: Actually, Save DCs have Ability Focus and the Divine abilities allowing you to add another mental attribute to DCs... Making it possible for a first level spell to have a Save DC of 10 + 1 + 23 + 23 + 4-6 = 73 or so with some investment.

Tyren Lourofesh wrote:

I definitely felt that HD-related bonuses should end at 16, so I agree there. Anything that scaled off of HD should stop with the 16 'true' levels.

I dunno if health will be an issue one way or another; if it will, I'd recommend treating the 16 'bonus' levels as being "virtual" HD. Basically it's literally just extra hit-points, with no scaling of abilities.

At the very least, that's what I've done. I've only calculated the Christmas Tree to level 16, the Auto Bonus Progression to 16+2, the HOP Gestalt/Prestigious stuff to 16, etc. etc., and I don't see any distinct drop-off in power.

This is what I have done as well.

EDIT: Depending on how the +BAB, HD, Skills, and Saves of the 16 CR class levels are ruled might exceed those, but I am not planning on it at this point.

Just missed the edit window... I cannot find it on d20pfsrd, but if you google "immortals handbook ascension" it shows up.

Ah. For spell damage, your best bet would be ways to add free metamagic for maximized empowered spells, and spells uncapped by HD; then take a caster PrC with some of your 16 CR allowance. I’ll double check the template and get back to you on that.

Divine abilities from the Disciple template can allow you to add an additional mental score to all DCs.

Then I definitely Prefer harbinger and claiming opponents to throw penalties out. I'll run with that over the Warder idea.

As long as the debuffs stack, there isn't any reason to not have multiple debuff focused builds. The champion's debuffing is going to be centered around Debilitating Injury, Overpowering Guilt Psionic Power (Assuming that HOF Magic User can do a Psion progression and not just Arcane/Divine), and massive intimidation bonuses (should be -5 to -7 on demoralized enemies). I thought about Harbinger, but wasn't sure there'd be enough enemies to Claim to make a useful penalty.

Maybe Seb can chime in on whether we are likely to have one big baddie or multiple? I prefer Harbinger, but Armiger's mark was a better single target debuff. As long as someone else is wanting to go that route, I have no problem doing something differently.

Alias ad Tempus wrote:

This was the roundup last Friday:

The First Sword of the King's Champion.
The Queen's favourite Spy-Assassin

In this light, I am imagining an Ordained Warder and Sacred Shield who is dedicated to either Apsu (Paladin) or Tiamat (Antipaladin)… Which begs the question: how would a paladin play out, if at all, in this world? I’ve always had trouble with the narrow descriptions of alignments and this is particularly true when it comes to worlds such as these! A perfectly Lawful character could be true to terribly draconic and bloody rules? And a good character could be dedicated to his people while steadfastly and violently opposed to the enemy of his people?

Tempus, I was planning on going with Warder as well for the Champion, but that was mostly to give her Full BAB, manuvers, and Armigers mark as a debuff. Do your archetypes keep Armigers Mark? I can definitely look at other options. :)

My plan for the Champion is Full BAB (preferably something with Manuvers), Vizier, and Gestalt Unchained Rogue with 10 levels of the Umbral Blade prestige class taken from the 16 CR of templates/PrC.

For the Assassin, I'm still working that out; probably something like Tactician / Bard though? Focusing on buffing the group and debuffing the enemy from a ranged position.

I'd play one or both as needed, depending on the story and which ruler cared more about an outcome.

So here's what I think after skimming through this: (back late from travel, sorry for my absence on here):

We get 16 gestalt levels, standard gestalt rules. 8 mythic tiers, gestalted in two paths with standard gestalt rules. We get the chapping down the christmas tree and ABP+2, and the single Disciple Divine template MG suggested. Point buy starts at 18s, adding 204 points on a 1:1 basis.

We also get 16 CR worth of templates, of which we can trade 1:1 for class levels in a PRC or base class. Those levels add to CL/HD/BAB/ etc additively, rather than being gestalt. I would suggest Gestalt/Prestigious HOF NOT add to BAB/etc additively, and instead only add class features.

I would also suggest that Heroic Grace (or something slightly more generic, like add your highest of any score) be given for free, since we are all looking at it and it's not a "differentiating" factor. Possibly something similar for AC as well, given there's a few feats/class abilities that can be cherry picked to add INT to AC or WIS to AC, and I think CHA to AC?

Fast Edit: if the 16 CR progression will add HD, then Gestalt / Prestigious probalby should as well; but no more than 16 additional HD of whatever else via whatever method.

Edit Edit: I would rather add BAB/CL/HP/ etc, but limit actual HD addition... Many things scale on HD in templates, and some non-class abilities do as well.

Quick comment on Heroic Grace while traveling; was anyone not planning on that? I figured it, or a couple levels in Paladin, were basically required to have even a chance of surviving...

Am traveling at the moment away from the computer; Ralrae will be up on Monday. Thank you for bringing him on board! Looking forward to this group of Western “heroes”!

Just a side note: Fast Healing 2-5 is only a feat away for everyone, so I’m not sure how much HP / Vigor healing is needed. Status effects on the other hand are important, and much more varied.

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I like 16/16 regular gestalt with 8/8 mythic, and the 16 CR of templates or PrCs, with PrCs stacking above the 16 HD total. Inflating ability scores directly via 1:1 point buy is pretty effective for bringing numbers up. I’m not familiar with the “Disciple” template at all. Sounds interesting.

If a test run showed that we can’t manage with that we could expand then. I had a thought and then remembered we can pick the action economy every turn, allowing non-natural attack users to still full attack.

I'm kinda ignoring the build rules, initially. I'm picking out what I want the character to be able to do, conceptually, and finding the feats/class features/etc that mechanically allow that. I know I can cherry pick different things with the Chopping the Christmas tree Knack/Gift feats, HOPF, Mythic, etc. If the conceptual framework ends up requiring more than the final build rules, I'll trim as needed but I'm not too worried about that right now.

Sebecloki wrote:
Anderlorn wrote:

What do you guys think about Tri-stalt and normal mythic rules adding triple path feat instead of dual path.

Then Race+Templates?

I really don't see any point in tristalt when you have the HOPF and rogue etc. creature templates to get other class abilities. Within a certain measure, having dozens of extra abilities doesn't really matter since there's only so much you can do within the present action economy -- as far as I can see.

Yeah, if we have HOPF we don't need tristalt. And having "gestalt" mythic paths with a complete progression on both sides should be plenty for every concept I can think of... Someone else might be more imaginative than I, but like you said there is a hard limit to actions.

I don't have a problem going the normal Gestalt rules, either; that would be simpler and there is more support for it. I think we could still manage against those beasties without trying to stack the gestalt.

There's also things (templates, spells, etc) that progress based on HD rather than level; those could vary wildly and be troublesome.


I think we should keep the limit of 16 HOPF feats and 8 Mythic ones as is. EDIT: I don't think anyone suggested otherwise, just throwing it out there.

Also, unless everyone else dives in on the Suzerain stuff as well, I'm just going with Pulse Pool (only for the purpose of Pulse feats taken with normal slots) and figuring out something to trade from a standard Psicrystal for the Telesma growth abilities... Otherwise it's a complete subsystem with extra feats, ability scores, hero points, increased healing, etc that wouldn't necessarily "unbalance" things, but is more than I am personally comfortable with as individual character divergence.

Using that first monster as a benchmark should help with everyone targeting roughly the same level, in whatever manner they choose to focus on.

@Tenro / Group:

I think stacking levels past the limits (Rank 32 skills, caster level 32, etc) could lead to some pretty wild disparity... at the same time, If we are stacking skills/BAB/HD/etc, that would help with a lot of the "numbers" problems, and introduce a bit more choice; two Full BAB classes for +32 to hit, or a Full BAB and a half BAB for casting at CL 16 and a to hit of +24, or two half-BAB classes for CL 32 and a to hit of +16?

Could be interesting. Also never done 2e gestalt, so I could be completely off on how that works.

EDIT:Interestingly, stacking things as level 32 would make HOPF like gestalt give you 16 levels of a class by itself, without the mythic version; but only the class features, not any of the HD/Saves/Skills/Etc.

Sebecloki wrote:

Suzerain stuff is fine, I like the other ideas. The king and queen sometimes scheme against each other but they're a married couple so it's complicated. They each also have other consorts.

Here's how I would construe it:

I like the idea for the twins. She's the champion of the king's captain of the guard, who represents him in ritual combats and appears as the capatain's physical scion in most scenarios. In terms of terminology, she's the squire/swordkeeper of the captain, but his is a much more important role than such a title would otherwise imply. She often wields the crazy sword used by the king's champion.

The male is the 'fixer' of the queen -- kind of a combination of James Bond and Artemis Entreri. He's not entirely within the palace hierarchy, but is something of a unique free agent. Sort of a like a bounty hunter that has attained a special prestige for this monarch, but occupies a role that isn't official and didn't really exist before this present queen.

Yep, that's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. And as long as the King/Queen aren't always against each other, it should add some fun elements to a twin dynamic - I can't tell you what I'm doing now, but next week we work together, etc.

So fluff idea to play one or both twins: She's the captain of the Kings guard, or that being's second in command, depending on power level. In your face, double weapon melee attacker, focusing on glorious presence of will (descriptive, not game text) and intimidating foes for larger than usual debuff penalties (-5 to 60' area as free action, with limited ability to bypass immunities) with at-will teleportation.

He's the queen's troubleshooter, hiding in the shadows and using magic/psionics/flavor of choice to bring about the outcomes she desires (if the king and queen oppose each other, that may or may not work out). Focusing on buffing, debuffing, and ranged attacks.

I second making things stack. Makes calculations a lot easier to just total everything up and then add it together. Only maybe iffy one would be adding a Stat to the same thing twice, ala Monk AC bonus. That said... I think that's the only bonus type common enough to worry about.

Secondly, a question. Would the material from the Suzerein Continuum be alright? I think it fits in power wise, its the fluff that might be a bit off. There's a free pdf on Paizo. Several of the Pulse feats and the Telesma as a variant "psicrystal" are the main things that interest me; I'm sure others would find it interesting. It's probably one of those things everyone should be on the same page about.

Sebecloki wrote:
River of Sticks wrote:

On the plus side, the base ruleset doesn't require much to cover skills/RP/investigatory capabilities.

@Sebecloki: Are the Mythic Feats on your list off? I think it should be 2 at first, 1 every level thereafter, right?

Actually I need to change that because we're gestalting the mythic tier, it should be the same as the gestalt levels for the regular classes now.

Whoops. Forgot that the other change was a mythic feat every level, which would make a single progression 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, etc.

Two progressions would be 4, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, etc, right?

On the plus side, the base ruleset doesn't require much to cover skills/RP/investigatory capabilities.

@Sebecloki: Are the Mythic Feats on your list off? I think it should be 2 at first, 1 every level thereafter, right?

Having gone template-hunting before, I know that there are not that many non-undead ones that hold my interest... I could probably find 16 CR worth, but what about if we make it flexible with levels of Prestige classes (assuming we meet the reqs); ie, we could take 11 CR of templates and 5 levels of a prestige class, etc?

I got the idea from your Dark Suns game trading a mythic tier of gestalt for 2/2 prestige class progression.

EDIT: Are the "Chopping Down the Christmas Tree" feats and ability scores in addition to standard, or superseded by the standard build rules?

SECOND EDIT: Are we running ABP for weapon Bonuses RAW (+5 max, special abilities count against your attunement), or something else? I've seen it run that you can purchase special abilities with WBL and stack up to a max of +10, but there's no WBL either... Suggestions?

Just for reference, I extended the Point buy using the same formula to higher levels. Each marginal point of an attribute increases the marginal cost by the amount of the modifier. A 204 Point buy is basically a 21 point baseline. If using an HOF feat for all 18s in one set of stats, you could conceivably get three 26s in the other set.

Score Point Extension:

Score Points
18 | 17
19 | 21
20 | 26
21 | 31
22 | 37
23 | 43
24 | 50
25 | 57
26 | 65
27 | 73
28 | 82
29 | 91
30 | 101
31 | 111
32 | 122

So, there are three main practical difficulties to overcome that I see, and two story difficulties.

Offense: With Touch AC's and Saves in the 50's, and regular AC / Flat Footed hitting 100+, being able to hit with attacks or saves will be a problem. Buffs and debuffs will definitely be necessary, but at level 16 with 8 mythic tiers there is definitely room to get a high to hit, especially with multiple high stats and ways to add multiple stats to damage with Mythic feats or HOF feats. This one I'm least worried about. Any firearm user would be mostly fine, targeting touch AC.

Defense: Surviving hits, or not getting hit in the first place. Surviving hits is basically out; a full attack routine (which natural attackers get in Unchained Action economy, even though PCs don't). Having AC upwards of 80-160+ is problematic; most high AC granting options are either restricted to a maximum (duelist is limited to level, for example) or are part of templates, not class abilities.

Making it stick: Dealing with immunities / high DR / regeneration. Assuming we can get the offense to hit, the action economy for 4-6 PCs might not allow enough attacks to get through the DR to overcome the regeneration. Ways of preventing regeneration (inquisitor on a critical hit with mythic support, etc) will be valuable.

Finally, there are two story difficulties: Handling any challenge like these will trivialize other challenges. Somewhat similarly, traveling outside of the city sounds like an all-or-nothing scenario too; you either have a way to escape or you don't.

The other difficulty is that pouring sufficient resources into being able to handle these beasts means non-combat abilities will naturally rise to a minimum level as well, which may or may not cause a problem.

TL;DR: For a highly coordinated party with optimal selection/synergy, everything but the Cherubim is probably capable of being handled with the rules as suggested (16/16/8/8). Adding a template up to +3 and a single PRC progression might help and open some other opportunities.

Handling the Cherubim would need to start stacking templates, going up a couple more levels to get capstone/close to capstone abilities, and cherry picking PRCs. If I understand the stat block correctly, that thing would be a challenge for a party of four ECL 70+ characters, and we are looking at a party of maybe.... lets say 16 + 10 + 6 for ECL ~32, as a quick guess, due to action Economy. It might be worth considering going with Unchained Action economy, but with 4 actions instead of 3 and maybe/maybe not limiting the number of complex (2-action, generally spellcasting) actions per turn.

Edit: Scaling feats in Poryphra Wiki might be helpful too.

Super high level, lots of mythic, and gestalt? Sounds like lots of cool stuff. I'm good with that :).

EDIT: I'll get back to you on the level required to take that beastie on...

As shiny as Spheres is, I think I will stick with the Bullet Wizard I actually submitted, so please just ignore my musings on Armiger or Technician concepts.

@Tenro: copied from my original post on it, this was my idea:

So I'm thinking if we go this route to invert a bunch of assumptions and create fraternal twins. : Twin A as the dark, brooding character, but he is actually a great buffer - handing out bonuses to the group and taking some of the battlefield control types of paths. Sort of a deep voiced, pessimistic guy, but working to make sure the worst is staved off through thinking ahead and planning. Twin B is light hearted kind of gal, who takes on a fierce aspect in battle with hugely destructive blasts/attacks and a shining glory of righteousness that strikes fear into the hearts of the enemy - a blunt hammer that can smash into whatever stands before, but tempered by her brother's advice. She rushes into situations, and he tries to plan ahead to get them out after the fact.

I think there are plenty of ways to approach the concept, especially with the many 3PP options. If you have specifics in mind I can avoid stepping on your toes. I'm not dead set on assassin-type fluff; shadowy magic and martial just made for an easy venn diagram of "assassin".

Sebecloki wrote:

Yeah why don't you do a set of kobold twins for this game.

Sure. I'l have one focused on Shadow and another on Geomancy. Possibly the Geomancy focused one as a social buffer/diplomat type, and the shadow as a martial assassin kind of character. .

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