Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Pathfinder Unchained (OGL)

LuniasM wrote:

Everyone keeps mentioning the skill unlocks (especially Heal) but keeping the actual uses oddly vague. If it's some kind of conspiracy to drive me crazy, you can stop now. What do Acrobatics and Sleight of Hand do? And I guess Heal since nobody will stop mentioning it :P

Generally speaking we're allowed to "spoil" minor details, but we're not allowed to copy/paste directly from the book or give out excessively detailed stuff.

That said, The skill unlock system gives you a new way to use a skill (or changes the way you can currently use the skill) for every 5 ranks you invest in it, provided you invest a specific feat in the skill. Unchained Rogues get free skill unlocks every five levels.

For healing, that means that you can use the Treat Deadly Wounds option to heal increasingly large amounts of HP and ability damage. It's not mindblowingly good, but it's a nice option for a party with limited (or no) access to magical healing.

I was really referring to things like "If they get the Heal skill unlock it'll help" and "Wow, that Heal unlock is really useful." You know, tantalizingly vague stuff. But knowing that it increases the amounts of damage (both HP and ability) it can heal is nice.

I figured I wouldn't get specific answers, but I really just want an idea of what they can do. Sort of like what you just did for Heal. For instance, I heard Stealth helps with sniping, heal can actually be used to heal others of HP and ability damage, acrobatics helps with tumbling (...surprise?), and nothing else so far.

Besides, everyone knows half the reason for subscribing is to join in on the vague detail sharing and driving everyone crazy.

Edit: Thank you Feros, those are a lot more specific than I was expecting! My upcoming Unchained Rogue (Underground Chemist) / VMC Alchemist will definitely be taking Acrobatics. Gotta love that unrestricted movement!

I'd still like more info on the variant skills systems,

So, Background skills are the following:
Appraise
Artistry
Craft
Handle Animal
Knowledge (Engineering, Geography, History, Nobility)
Linguistics
Lore
Perform
Profession
Sleight of Hand

Which means there are now four 'common/occupation' skills every class gets:
Artistry
Craft
Lore
Profession

So, what are the Consolidated Skills and the Grouped Skills, and how to they function?

I'd still like more info on the variant skills systems,

So, Background skills are the following:
Appraise
Artistry
Craft
Handle Animal
Knowledge (Engineering, Geography, History, Nobility)
Linguistics
Lore
Perform
Profession
Sleight of Hand

Which means there are now four 'common/occupation' skills every class gets:
Artistry
Craft
Lore
Profession

So, what are the Consolidated Skills and the Grouped Skills, and how to they function?

Barbarians are the only class that has never—and still doesn't—get Profession as a class skill, but otherwise correct.

Spiral_Ninja wrote:

I'd still like more info on the variant skills systems,

So, Background skills are the following:
Appraise
Artistry
Craft
Handle Animal
Knowledge (Engineering, Geography, History, Nobility)
Linguistics
Lore
Perform
Profession
Sleight of Hand

Which means there are now four 'common/occupation' skills every class gets:
Artistry
Craft
Lore
Profession

So, what are the Consolidated Skills and the Grouped Skills, and how to they function?

Barbarians are the only class that has never—and still doesn't—get Profession as a class skill, but otherwise correct.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Thanks, Feros. (Forgot about the Barbarian, I don't think I've ever played one.)

The Grouped Skills variant sounds...interesting. I'll be picking up the PDF on the 29th, then. [Non-subscriber, but book IS on order.]

Tell me more about the new rules on Alignment.

I personally like the idea of spreading the goodies out, as long as the Rogue and Fighter are the best. I'm either allowing any class to take a single Skill Unlock as a feat, or giving every class 1 Skill Unlock (class skills only) at 1st level. The idea that the world's best mundane doctors, the most skilled animal trainers, and the most knowledgeable scholars of the planes are all rogues doesn't sit well with me - however, the world's best animal-training-doctor-in-space is probably a rogue.

I've heard many arguments on the "Who should get access to Stamina" discussion, and I think that although fighters should be the best at using these feats that it would be best used to give my martial players a boost. How exactly to enable this is a bit of a conundrum though :/

Then they should multiclass into Fighter. That's what multiclassing is for.

No one else gets Smite Evil, no Barbarian will casts 3rd-level Arcane spells without multiclassing, no Rogue will use Bardic Performance, and so on. Not without multiclassing.

To be able to mimic the Fighter at the cost of a mere feat once again belittles the Fighter. This is why almost no one bothers to play one. The other martial classes do not need combat boosts by accessing Stamina, they have plenty of their own. (Magus in particular is overpowered)

Yeah Fighters have a lot of feats, but a Fighter with Whirlwind Attack is no different than the Barbarian with Whirlwind Attack. What should separate them is for the Fighter to be the ONLY class that should be able to do better with Whirlwind Attack when it so chooses than any other class. It is a Fighter, it should be the BEST at fighting as its main stick compared to other martial classes.

Having more of what another class gets does not make you unique nor does it help you fill any real niche if that's your best and only real class feature. (Bravery, Armor and Weapon Training are nice, but needs heavy level investment and is not as shiny as what all the other classes get).

Just me and my friends' opinion on the matter of leaving Stamina as a Fighter only benefit.

Regarding the new action economy: am I missing something here, or does this basically make everyone move 50% faster in the long run?

Yeah, pretty much. Unless I'm missing something, you can move (1 act) and then charge (2 acts). As an example.

You could use 3 moves to zigzag through a battlefield. Or you can use all 3 actions to Run in a straight line at quad speed.

Zaister wrote:

Regarding the new action economy: am I missing something here, or does this basically make everyone move 50% faster in the long run?

Yeah, pretty much. Unless I'm missing something, you can move (1 act) and then charge (2 acts). As an example.

You could use 3 moves to zigzag through a battlefield. Or you can use all 3 actions to Run in a straight line at quad speed.

Furthermore a 1st level character can attack 3 times per round albeit at -5 and -10 to hit.

Been flipping through my PDF and I am liking what I've seen so far.

Question on the Revised Action Economy system: Maybe I'm missing it (still at the just skimming phase) but how does this system react to the Slow Spell (or if you are a Zombie or suffering from some other thing that reduces your actions). There is mention of the Haste spell but I can't find anything on Slow.

Zaister wrote:

Regarding the new action economy: am I missing something here, or does this basically make everyone move 50% faster in the long run?

Yeah, pretty much. Unless I'm missing something, you can move (1 act) and then charge (2 acts). As an example.

You could use 3 moves to zigzag through a battlefield. Or you can use all 3 actions to Run in a straight line at quad speed.

except that the Charge action doesn't provide you with an attack at the end of the double movement. It does give a bonus to any attacks you make before the end of your turn but it doesn't say you get an attack as part of the charge.

It is a Fighter, it should be the BEST at fighting as its main stick compared to other martial classes.

Wouldn't that make it the "Fightest"?

New 4th level fighter ability i just thought of.
Fighter efficiency: at 4th level you may decrease the overall stamina cost of using a combat trick by 1. If this reduces the cost of using the combat trick to less than one stamina, then it may be used as long as the fighter has at least one point in his stamina pool. At 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter this reduction in stamina increases by 1.

This may have been already answered and I missed it -- does the Unchained Barbarian still gain Trap Sense? Or does it offer some alternative options for that class feature slot?

New 4th level fighter ability i just thought of.

Fighter efficiency: at 4th level you may decrease the overall stamina cost of using a combat trick by 1. If this reduces the cost of using the combat trick to less than one stamina, then it may be used as long as the fighter has at least one point in his stamina pool. At 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter this reduction in stamina increases by 1.

At first glance I like this a lot more than the solution I suggested earlier, but I'd have to look over the combat tricks to make sure nothing gets too broken by being used continuously. Either way, great suggestion!

christos gurd wrote:

New 4th level fighter ability i just thought of.

Fighter efficiency: at 4th level you may decrease the overall stamina cost of using a combat trick by 1. If this reduces the cost of using the combat trick to less than one stamina, then it may be used as long as the fighter has at least one point in his stamina pool. At 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter this reduction in stamina increases by 1.

At first glance I like this a lot more than the solution I suggested earlier, but I'd have to look over the combat tricks to make sure nothing gets too broken by being used continuously. Either way, great suggestion!

note that used the word overall, so stuff like twf that is spent in increments of 2 only applies it once.

This may have been already answered and I missed it -- does the Unchained Barbarian still gain Trap Sense? Or does it offer some alternative options for that class feature slot?

They, like the Unchained Rogue, get Danger Sense.

Can anyone explain in a few words how does the Unchained Fighter work?

Thanks!

Can anyone explain in a few words how does the Unchained Fighter work?

Thanks!

There's no separate rewrite for the Fighter, iirc -- they mostly get support in the skill (with background skills or consolidated lists) and feat (for stamina and combat tricks) areas.

They, like the Unchained Rogue, get Danger Sense.

Thanks for the info! My current Barbarian player is gonna be happy about that.

There are no unchained fighter.

Of all classes in need of "unchaining" they left the fighter out???

XD

Of all classes in need of "unchaining" they left the fighter out???

XD

The Fighter can greatly benefit from some of the optional rules, especially Stamina and Combat Tricks. It doesn't take a full rewrite of the Fighter to get that improvement.

-Skeld

I just wish mine would ship already so I could look at the pdf...got the shipping soon email over a week ago.

This is correct. Artistry is a new skill introduced to handle creating things like poetry or philosophy, stuff not so easily covered by craft, perform or profession checks.

So... stand up philosopher?

Did you ($*# #*$( last week?

No

Did you TRY to ($*# #*$( last week?

Yeeees.

Rogar Valertis wrote:

Of all classes in need of "unchaining" they left the fighter out???

XD

The Fighter can greatly benefit from some of the optional rules, especially Stamina and Combat Tricks. It doesn't take a full rewrite of the Fighter to get that improvement.

-Skeld

I don't want to derail the thread but... really? The summoner needed unchaining more than the fighter? Or even the monk (same class who got all those nifty style feats with UC?)?

Every other class can do what the fighter can. Yes you get more feats, but that's really all there is to it: more feats. Nothing is unique about the fighter, and adding new mechanics that everyone can use does not solve the problem at all.

For those who feel that way, there is an option to add new mechanics that nobody but the fighter can get.

Rogar Valertis wrote:

Every other class can do what the fighter can. Yes you get more feats, but that's really all there is to it: more feats. Nothing is unique about the fighter, and adding new mechanics that everyone can use does not solve the problem at all.

Every other class can do a FRACTION of what the fighter can. Whether that's 50% (a melee bard) or closer to 70% (the warpriest), the fighter still has more combat feats than anyone else, and he can trade them out when he levels up if he wants to.

The new system is heavily skewed in the fighter's favor. Even if every martial character gets the Stamina Pool for free, the fighter has more combat tricks than anyone else by virtue of having more feats.

You know what game closed the disparity in power levels between the fighter and the wizard? 4th edition. And the response, especially among those who came over to Pathfinder, was that the Wizard (and those who use spells) should be more powerful then the martial characters. So what Pathfinder Unchained does is say "here's a resource pool that if given solely to the fighter will allow him to close some of the gap between him and the casters. If you don't feel that closing this gap is necessary, here's some rules to give the other classes access to the same resource pool." It might not say that explicitly but it seems pretty close to the intent, especially given Mark Seifter's comments.

Not everyone wants the classes to be balanced. Pathfinder Unchained has been made to appeal to those who do want the classes to be closer in power level, but it's written in such a way as to alienate those fans who don't want to bring the classes closer to parity.

Just wondering with the leveling items (don't remember the name) are there any cool weapons included in it?

I don't want to derail the thread but... really? The summoner needed unchaining more than the fighter? Or even the monk (same class who got all those nifty style feats with UC?)?
They added new mechanics benefitting the fighter more than others. Nice. But from what I'm hearing not really the overhaul the class needed. Besides the main problem with the fighter is the class seems so bland. Every other class can do what the fighter can. Yes you get more feats, but that's really all there is to it: more feats. Nothing is unique about the fighter, and adding new mechanics that everyone can use does not solve the problem at all.

I have to second my vote on this. It rings truth.

If you had a lineup of all the classes in PF and had to choose your party, the Fighter would be the unpopular kid picked last (or not at all). That shouldn't be the case.

It should be,"Well I need a real fighter, someone I can count on in any battle because they will find a way to pull through in combat no matter what." And at that point, you should point to the Fighter and tell him to come over.

It shouldn't be,"Well, we can get just as much from the Paladin and Barbarian. Heck, even the Unchained Rogue can get in on some good action. Let's take them!"

More feats? Really? Who cares if the Fighter has a ton of feats when the Barbarian has feats + rage powers + class features that overshadow the Fighter. Or the Paladin who has feats + smite + divine spells and overshadows the Fighter.

Fighter should have Feats + class features + Stamina/Combat Tricks + Style strikes (yes, Style strikes, I dunno why Unchained Monk got such a super DBZ heavy combat boost and is now overshadowing the Fighter in terms of...fighting...) + a free archetype (as in one that does NOT replace any features, but rather specializes your Fighter for free).

Skeld wrote:

Rogar Valertis wrote:

Of all classes in need of "unchaining" they left the fighter out???

XD

The Fighter can greatly benefit from some of the optional rules, especially Stamina and Combat Tricks. It doesn't take a full rewrite of the Fighter to get that improvement.

-Skeld

I don't want to derail the thread but... really? The summoner needed unchaining more than the fighter? Or even the monk (same class who got all those nifty style feats with UC?)?

They added new mechanics benefitting the fighter more than others. Nice. But from what I'm hearing not really the overhaul the class needed. Besides the main problem with the fighter is the class seems so bland. Every other class can do what the fighter can. Yes you get more feats, but that's really all there is to it: more feats. Nothing is unique about the fighter, and adding new mechanics that everyone can use does not solve the problem at all.

If you can address a problem with a class without making any changes to the class, that's a winner in my opinion because you don't invalidate every statblock for that class that's been previously printed across hundreds of products. The Stamina/Combat Trick rules do exactly that, especially if you follow their recommendation of making Stamina/Combat Tricks a Fighter-only option.

-Skeld

Here's the cool thing about Unchained -- at its heart, it's about providing options for home-games. You're encouraged to A) adopt any of the systems they provide if you like them, or B) use them as inspiration for your own ideas. And home-games have infinite potential to become whatever kind of game you want it to be.

If your Fighter isn't where you want it to be, there's a whole subforum on these boards for Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew where you can find other folks who share your opinion and can help you create the Fighter you want.

For sure! We want you to tinker around until you find fun variations so you can have your own take that your whole group absolutely loves.

Really, I think the suck of the fighter is overstated. It needed help, sure, but it wasn't in the same group as the monk or the rogue. Plenty of people play fighters and have a dandy time with them. Lots. Most of the problem with fighters seems to come from theoretical weakness, rather than actual weakness. Monks and Rogues have shown actual weakness.

That said, I want to say I'm really liking the look of the new monk. The old monk flowed like water, sure. He just couldn't crash like water.

Heh like people did mention, if you don't want people other than fighters to use combat tricks...guess what, you can choose to not give it to anybody else. If being unique is so important to you. It's one of the options.

Frankly, most of the people that I have seen playing fighters are actually having a blast and it is easily their favorite characters.

Really, I think the suck of the fighter is overstated. It needed help, sure, but it wasn't in the same group as the monk or the rogue. Plenty of people play fighters and have a dandy time with them. Lots. Most of the problem with fighters seems to come from theoretical weakness, rather than actual weakness. Monks and Rogues have shown actual weakness.

That said, I want to say I'm really liking the look of the new monk. The old monk flowed like water, sure. He just couldn't crash like water.

Playing Two-handed Weapon Fighter in Wardens of the Reborn Forge, can confirm it's actually quite nice to completely obliterate things with an earth breaker.

Does VMC Antipaladin exist?

Does VMC Antipaladin exist?

No. Anti-paladin isn't a base class; it's an alternate class, akin to an expanded archetype.

-Skeld

A couple of questions:

1. Does the Oracle VMC force you to give up your 1st level feat?

2. Does the Fighter VMC force you to give up your 5th level feat?

3. At what level do the Oracle Revelations work at? -2 or CLVL?

Does VMC Antipaladin exist?

As far as I understand, it should be EXTREMELY easy to port from Paladin into Antipaladin for VMC.

If you want to use the antipaladin as a secondary class, it's very easy to extrapolate form the paladin listing.

A couple of questions:

1. Does the Oracle VMC force you to give up your 1st level feat?

2. Does the Fighter VMC force you to give up your 5th level feat?

You give up 5 feats: 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th. You keep the other ones.

Secret Wizard wrote:

A couple of questions:

1. Does the Oracle VMC force you to give up your 1st level feat?

2. Does the Fighter VMC force you to give up your 5th level feat?

You give up 5 feats: 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th. You keep the other ones.

Ok, so the features those give at odd feat-levels (1st and 5th) do NOT increase the cost of the VMC. Interesting...

So question-- what does the summoner VMC give you? I can't think of a single class that couldn't benefit from a meat shield-er, loyal eidilon...

So question-- what does the summoner VMC give you? I can't think of a single class that couldn't benefit from a meat shield-er, loyal eidilon...

Summon Monster SLA, Eidolon, Shield Ally, and Aspect. Aspect, the SLA, and your Eidolon are all super nerfed in the VMC.

Edit: You know? The most telling part is that it might still be worth it.

Rogar Valertis wrote:

Skeld wrote:

Rogar Valertis wrote:

Of all classes in need of "unchaining" they left the fighter out???

XD

The Fighter can greatly benefit from some of the optional rules, especially Stamina and Combat Tricks. It doesn't take a full rewrite of the Fighter to get that improvement.

-Skeld

I don't want to derail the thread but... really? The summoner needed unchaining more than the fighter? Or even the monk (same class who got all those nifty style feats with UC?)?

They added new mechanics benefitting the fighter more than others. Nice. But from what I'm hearing not really the overhaul the class needed. Besides the main problem with the fighter is the class seems so bland. Every other class can do what the fighter can. Yes you get more feats, but that's really all there is to it: more feats. Nothing is unique about the fighter, and adding new mechanics that everyone can use does not solve the problem at all.

If you can address a problem with a class without making any changes to the class, that's a winner in my opinion because you don't invalidate every statblock for that class that's been previously printed across hundreds of products. The Stamina/Combat Trick rules do exactly that, especially if you follow their recommendation of making Stamina/Combat Tricks a Fighter-only option.

-Skeld

Yes, that would be the case IF your premise were true, and I don't agree it is, for the reason the fighter's problem (IMO) is not only mechanical, what's more concerning is that the fighter has NOTHING unique to itself, and no, "more feats" doesn't translate as "more unique", on the contrary the class is BUILT with many feats in mind as you are forced to follow certain "feat trees". After all, weapon focus and specializations are pratically mandatory. Then there are a few combat feats generally more useful than others (like power attack), then you have the flavourful stuff, but all things considered if you could choose between being really good at tripping or disarming SOME opponents or always being able to have a favorite enemy/smite evil/rage and so on what would you choose? That not taking into consideration if you want to be really good at, let's say trip or disarm you can easily do the same with any other class that also has unique focus.

The fighter needed unchaining more than most other classes imo because of this thematical problem, and because some of its core mechanics are quite frankly outdated (why does the fighter need to choose weapon focus on a single type of weapon like everyone else and not a whole weapon group, for example?). Sure these optional rules can help on a mechanical level, and sure, I can make up my own hose rules (actually I did, and I could even post them) but that's besides the fact I mantain the class will still be considered "bland" and those who like the new rules will simply ask the GM for them to be given to other types of martials because for the new OPTIONAL abilities the GM would also have to HOUSE RULE the fact they only apply to the fighter and gaining "uniqueness" that way would certainly be felt as forced.

Why does someone choose to be a fighter? Because they love the class (and have done so for a long time in most cases) and/or because they want their character to be the best at fighting, even sacrificing a wider set of abilities/skills for that. As it is the fighter is not the best at what it does and worse he feels less unique than other martial classes, and that's why a lot of people don't care for the class. After all why choose something that can only fight while not even being the best at it, when you can have other classes that are at least as good at fighting AND have much wider scope/skills? Unless you are a diehard fighter fan you won't bother.

So, all things considered I'm not personally happy with this, sorry. When I asked about the "warrior unchained" I was hoping it was included in the book and it's exclusion from the product's description was an oversight, and I was ready to order the book if it was. Keep in mind I usually buy books after the release or get the pdf, but this time I was ready to make an exception, because I've been hoping for Paizo to recognize the fighter's problem for a while now. It was not to be and I'm disappointed. It's no biggie, of course, but I won't be buying this book for the forseeable future because it does not seem to have what I was looking for.

Why do some players choose Fighter?

Because they don't want the added complexity of spellcasting. Because having a list of a dozen plus spells that they must choose one from can cause less experienced players to freeze up. Classes like the Rogue and Fighter have an easier learning curve in some ways, especially with a GM who takes time to work with the less experienced players in leveling up and the like.

Thats exactly what my players decided this campaign, the usual Witch and Bard chose Fighter and Rogue and are having the best time yet

"Keep it simple stupid! Great advice, hurts my feelings every time" - Dwight Schrutte

Why do some players choose Fighter?

Because they don't want the added complexity of spellcasting. Because having a list of a dozen plus spells that they must choose one from can cause less experienced players to freeze up. Classes like the Rogue and Fighter have an easier learning curve in some ways, especially with a GM who takes time to work with the less experienced players in leveling up and the like.

I do not presume to know you or your players, that may very well be the case for your gaming group but let me point out that:

1. The "added complexity" we are talking about hardly matters for other martials who get to cast spells at some point during their progression, as their spells are all fairly simple.

2. A lot of people choose barbarians over fighters and barbs don't have access to spells. They generally feel barbs are as good as fighters or even better at fighting while having a wider scope and more thematical focus. To a lesser extent this is also true for cavaliers in my experience.

3. There are a lot of experienced players, who don't feel inconvenienced at all by complexity that do not choose fighters instead of other martials because they feel them to be less focused/generally less useful than other martial classes.

4. I suppose you are talking about other martials here and not divine or arcane casters for those cover other team roles and all clerics and all wizards teams are exceptions and not the norm in most gaming groups.

So what do people wants out of fighter? Like seriously? Do people wants fighter to have all good saves + Evasion+ Still Mind+ Full Bab + Self-buffs special ability + rogue talents + ranger combat styles + Studied target + 8+int skills per level+ being good at social and intellectual situations all at the same time?

I mean, I do understand all the complaints but like do people really want to not rely on anybody and be good at everything? is that the end goal?

Skeld wrote:

Rogar Valertis wrote:

Of all classes in need of "unchaining" they left the fighter out???

XD

The Fighter can greatly benefit from some of the optional rules, especially Stamina and Combat Tricks. It doesn't take a full rewrite of the Fighter to get that improvement.

-Skeld

I don't want to derail the thread but... really? The summoner needed unchaining more than the fighter? Or even the monk (same class who got all those nifty style feats with UC?)?

They added new mechanics benefitting the fighter more than others. Nice. But from what I'm hearing not really the overhaul the class needed. Besides the main problem with the fighter is the class seems so bland. Every other class can do what the fighter can. Yes you get more feats, but that's really all there is to it: more feats. Nothing is unique about the fighter, and adding new mechanics that everyone can use does not solve the problem at all.

That's what the Fighter is FOR. The person who wants a hero whose main schtick is combat without divine baggage, magical baggage, nature baggage, bushido baggage, or knighthood baggage. Within that concept, you have a spectrum from Harry the Thug to Benedict of Amber. The archetypes for the Fighter are really what make that spectrum possible.

So I'm guessing that with the Sorcerer VMC we can't use the Wildblooded bloodlines or archetypes in general?