GM Rednal wrote:
Out of curiosity, have you ever seen a high-level full Vancian caster (Wizard, in particular) in play?
It seems to me that the issue Merlin cross mentioned may get into a GM that makes it too easy to refresh spell points. I mean, darkness with a tone of effects can be done--but it's likely that you'll blow most, if not all of your spell points to do it, restricting you to basic effects for a good long while.
But that's the kind of balancing act that also, as pointed out exists for Vancian casters--if a caster can just blaze away without worrying about using up his spell slots, he can often just utterly OBLITERATE his enemies--in the encounter.
One of the problems I have with racial alignment is well, how is it a race of sociopathic lunatics that are one step away from knifing each other survive as a threat? Neutral and Chaotic evil groups should have a hard time surviving as a group of bandits, much less running a society.
Mind you, I'm not saying that they can't dislike and act that way to outside groups, but internally, they really need a more stable platform.
This is sort of the problem with defining *everything* by a single racial Alignment. Sapient beings are more complex than that by far.
I recall a joke game one of my old DM's ran in college. We were all playing angsty drow who were good and fighting the power, and after a desperaate mission to the underworld to find out what evil the now silent drow kingdoms were playing we found...Empty kingdoms. All the Drow had become Angsty heroic antiheroes.
It had a very amusing encounter with a quite depressed avatar of Lloth who was playing solitaire in her main temple.
Nox Aeterna wrote:
Which is another problem about goblins--you can do that, but it suddenly makes it all about the goblin. It devours the rest of the plot, because you're always having to explain why nobody kills the goblin. It turns them into the precious Mary Sunshine character that devours everyone elses storyline.
Comical adventurs aside, Goblins are a race that A. eats babies (literally, in some of the source material it's mentioned that is a sign of a growing goblin infestation) B. Love torture for its own sake, such as burning people alive. C. Are the kind of idiots that are likely to burn down their own village. They're the insidious fusion of a kender and a rabid halfling.
Now could avoid all that by.... not playing a goblin, just someone who wears a goblin suit, but for some reason doesn't act like a goblin. But given how much of their cultural baggage and attitudes you have to drop to make them at all group friendly, you're not really playing a goblin anymore. So why waste the page count in the core?
Yeah. Goblins in Golarian aren't just pyro's, they're pyros who enjoy lighting babies on fire to hear them scream. Getting over anti-goblin racism requires modifying the race to where every other goblin isn't going to try and murder you and burn your house down and not even really have a good reason for it.
And I've always hated that, because Goblin's should be extinct or on their way to extinct. They're stupid, violent, cowardly, and will always antagonize something more powerful than they are. Even evil races shouldn't like them, because they're useless and destroy resources that others can use.
And again, there are a ton of other species in Golarian that are far more interesting. I think Paizo has mistook "we think this is a funny race" for "we think this is a race that needs to become a part of the core."
Goblin's as written are a walking advertisement for extermination. They're a literal plague, that will--not if, will, destroy the region if they're allowed to breed, and produce nothing of value.
So, if they want to make them not a plague, you get a horde of GINO's (Goblin's in Name Only), if they keep them, anything like the stupid, murderous (let us remember, having goblins in teh region is generally the source of most of your vanishing children, who they ate), backstabbing plagues, then you get the traditional horde of "But I'm playing my character!"
If not, then why use them? Paizo has loads of damned species that are far more interesting than Goblins, from just about every viewpoint.
A feat should be a fairly big deal, and if you're needing a chain, it should be a VERY big deal, giving you capabilities that are both interesting and mechanically useful.
Pathfinder has far, far too many feats that are either borderline useless, or are just there to keep you from grabbing the good feat that has them as a pre-req.
I think adventures and campaigns will likely be the least impacted--after all, you can just have blank stat blocks in your main copy and then have a PF1/PF2 file for publication, as many groups do for 5E right now.
So those products will continue along since once the cost of producing the product is taken into account, the cost of creating state and NPC blocks for two systems won't be that big.
Now, new rules systems? Such as Drop Dead's sphere's of power? Those may be more of an "either or" the degree depending on just how different PF2 is. OTH, they have loyal customers who might say, want new product for their PF1.5 games (which is to say, first edition pathfinder, but with massive compenents effectively replaced by 3PP rules systems).
This is very concerning to me, because a lot of the best spells in PF1E were ones that didn't scale with CL anyways (or if they did only scaled by duration). Consider the Haste vs Fireball, for example. Even if Haste never improved beyond 5 round duration it would still be very usable at 20th, while Fireball would go obsolete almost immediately if its damage didn't scale.
Yeah. One of hte biggest power imbalances between casters and martials has nothing to do with the damage but the flexiblity and the ability to pull out spells that can do stuff that a martial flat out can't.
Will it? The thing is, if they're trying to make it simpler and faster, well that is D&D 5e's territory. So they're not just trying to compete with people who liked old pathfinder, but an already existing and popular system.
Then there's the fact that, much like Pathfinder's origin, there's a huge number of third party publishers out there, many of them quite good. It's not like the old days, when if you wanted to play at all, you had to go with the new edition because it was that or just stick with what you have with nothing new coming out.
If it is completely incompatible, I predict it won't be nearly as successful as Paizo is hoping for.
This is where a number of my friends are at. The problem is that if you have widely used PF stuff as well as 3rd party stuff and it suddenly becomes in compatible, well, as you said--if it's going to take five years to get to my specific class, I'll just go off and play something else. If all the AP's are useless now, there's not much reason to play 2E.
Or to put it differently, WOTC tried to do something dramatically different and incompatible with 4e--how did that work out for them?
Because to be honest, I have a lot of older Paizo products and use a fair amount of third party stuff, spheres of power, to use one example. So if the system is tremendously difficult to update stuff to, it's likely that I'll either stick with 1E or just mosey on to Onyx Path or M&M.
Now granted, that puts the writers in a bit of a bind--if you don't make some pretty fundamental changes, people start wondering why you're trying to get them to buy edition 1.1, but on the other hand, a fair number of players either have lots of old paizo product they haven't gotten to yet, or third party stuff, so some attention should be paid to trying to figure out how to make upgrading easier.
So, I'm currently using sphere's of power and finding it to be pretty much everything I wanted.
But one of my players has some concerns about the conjuration sphere, because he wants to play a more "on the fly" conjurer, coming up with new spirits to fit the situation rather than a single or small number of contracted pets.
The problem for me, rules wise, is that the conjuration sphere is a very powerful sphere, and letting someone conjure a pet like that, on the fly, gives them an extremely powerful swiss army knife.
OTH, there are a lot of fantasy characters that pretty well do just that, so it's not like the concept isn't unknown.
I have a few, rather unfleshed ideas.
1. Add feats that allow for reconfiguration, but the summoned creature takes a hefty "level penalty" in terms of its abilities, giving up power for flexibility.
2. Allow it, but require a magic foci that has to be created and expended with every reconfiguration, making it expensive enough to make that doing so poses a real cost.
The thing is that it needs to have an opportunity cost that doesn't leave anyone else with the conjurer sphere feeling like a chump for not taking it.
Also, if you can already do this somewhere and I merely had a critical fail on reading, just point out the rule and let me slink away with my shame.
If you want to lay a conan- or Soloman Kane style "limited magic" campaign, using the Scholar "caller" archtype and the knacks found later in the book-- everyone else has to use the dabbler and ritual feats, which pretty well defines most of the wizards we find in the more pulp settings-- not that powerful compared to your normal pathfinder setting, but since a wizard is quite literally a one in a million find, they are very powerful compared to most of the people they face.
GM Rednal wrote:
Yeah. It's a really neat class, but I'd say it's not a class for a beginner. It does require some consideration and planning, although it definately rewards the player with a very flavorful experience that is far different from most other classes. It's also very, very flexible, which can make it useful if say, you have a small party.
I've been thinking--for a low level magic hybrid, how would adapting the conscripts sphere specialization work? "magic" could allow say, access to a low progression magic ability with a few bonus talents and maybe a few other bennies. The conscript is paying for it, in lost feats, but it might be suited for a combat mage in a low magic setting.
Are you planning to do expansion books for this like you've been doing for Spheres of Power?
If so, one thing I'd love to see would be a product adding tech improvements for setting where the technology is more advanced--IE, a technician's inventions are a bit underwhelming if say you're running a late 19th or early 20th century style setting.
I've got to agree with Painful Bugger, this class is a real disappointment. Even if you ignore spells, the Druid class is better at shifting than the Shifter. To make matters worse the archetype I was looking forward to most, the Oozemorph is basically unplayable at low levels, you can only maintain humanoid form for 1/hour per level a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your level. That means that at 1st level you can be in humanoid form for 1 hour a day. Sounds bad, but it gets worse, when in ooze form, in addition to other restrictions, you can't hold items. So I hope the rest of the party is cool with carrying your stuff.
That looks pretty bad. I mean, the druid gets a 9th level spell progression, and wild shape and other bennies, so if they're better than the shifter at shapechanging, well, why not play a druid? The oozemorph is just bad design.
Good news, I have sphere's of power, so I can fairly easily come up with a tradition for a shifter using that system.
This has actually moved the book out of my "I'll probably buy it column." If your "It's all about shapeshifting" class isn't better than the druids, especially considering a druid *also* gets 9/level casting, I think you have a serious problem, especially given how many good shapeshifting 3rd party classes there are.
Eric Hinkle wrote:
You know, it's funny, but with a lot of the modern work being done on how Hyena packs form and interact, you could actually make a real good case that the Gnolls would be more likely to be nice than the "noble lion" people.
Note, if you want to run a Conan style campaign with SOP and SOM, it's actually pretty easy. Use the basic talents from SOM, but for any wizards in SOP, you can allow them only a few basic talents, with most of their powerful spells being used as incantations. A wizard may have a few incantations of Monster Summoning VI ready, but if he's caught unprotected, or exhausted (say, because he's preparing to summong one of hte dark gods Conan wizards were so fond of), he'll be largely restricted to basic sphere talents that aren't really overwhelming against a sullen eyed barbarian's good steel.
I am sad that Paizo didn't deicide to murder the sacred cow of alignment interacting with rules. Oh well, I guess we'll still have "how many castings of death knell on dying space-chickes do I need to break bad?" threads after all.
Amen brother. My fondest hope is that one day, Alignment will be taken out, burned and then the ashes scattered to the wind, with the sole exception of spiritual beings such as angels and demons.
Benjamin Medrano wrote:
You know, by the time your picking up books like advanced wilderness, I'd be surprised if more than a few players were new at all. It also seems like a case where if that's the main reason, they're also harming the utility of the class by toning down it's defining trait.
I'm bummed--finally got enough money for the KS and its closed. Color me sorrowful.
That being said, is there support for gunslinger type characters, and not just the early renaissance style so often seen--I'd really kill for a rules system that could, with minimal tinkering, let you run a 1880s gunfighter or for that matter, 1920s gunsel.
Freehold DM wrote:
lots of Jedi are disillusioned by what happened. Most survivors wouldn't do something like what keeps being suggested here, they know where hubris lead last time.
This is the big thing. If you're a surviving Jedi, you realize at some point that the REpublic was destroyed, at least in part, because the entire Jedi order was played, from start to finish by the very thing you were supposedly preparing to fight.
Remember how seriously the Jedi take following the "will of the force" in many cases. I wouldn't be surprised if more than few interpreted the events surrounding order 66 to be a big clue from the force-- the time of the Jedi order has ended. Heck, they might even oppose luke in his attempts to refound the order (correctly, as the events in TFA show).
so here's a question-- is there any published material for SOP that can allow someone to pick more talents if they pick them at a downgraded level, IE, a high caster getting two, rather than one talent if those talents are calculated as a midcaster? In other words, jack of all trades, master of none? I was thinking of working on something like this, but I don't want to duplicate it if it's already been published somewhere.
For me, what I want, and what will determine whether or not I keep buying more starfinder products is the following:
1. I setting that feels like science-fantasy, not fantasy with some reskinned magic items we call tech. That means that technology should be freely available if you have the money, regardless of level types. It should be relatively easy to fix. It should feel different from magic.
2. If we have cyberware-- the same thing. If you need ot, use some sort of essence mechanic a'la shadowrun, but don't treat it like magic. Magic is not technology and the two are fundamentally different and nothing loses me faster than failing to understand that.
I don't think it will fail or split Paizo in half. For one thing, many people who just play pathfinder will probably grab aspects of Starfinder.
And, since it's in the future, you don't have the problem you get with things like Starjammer, where some players feel that now planetary adventures have been made to look irrelevant in the face of the mighty Elven Armada. STarfinder is in the future-- it has no impact on Pathfinder itself.
I don't think it's useful-- the entire point of tech in Pathfinder is that it's rare, special and due to the difficulty in duplicating it, something of strictly limited influence on the setting. A high-tech setting isn't going to have any of that-- a blaster is something you buy lik eyou'd buy a (non-magical) sword, and will have to be balanced and handled like that.