Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Strategy Guide (OGL)

Poet22 wrote:

Excellent idea! I have been waiting for this since the Beginner Box! And I hope you have utilized the same thinking behind the GRAPHIC DESIGN of the BB to make this "friendly" to player delving into the full core rules for the first time. I so appreciated what you did with the BB, especially as we try to introduce the game to younger players (who will support the hobby going forward!).

Yep, we learned a lot from the Beginner Box layout and this book will take many cues from that product in its graphic design.

-Lisa

This book does not assume you came from the Beginner Box, but if you did, you will find the presentation familiar.

Nukruh wrote:

I just saw the preview images in the catalog. I am saddened by the use of larger fonts (and all the layout adjustments larger fonts bring) to stay within the Beginner Box layout even at 160 pages.

That image is just a mockup to communicate the concept, not an actual layout. The actual text hasn't even been written yet! I *do* expect the layout to take many cues from the Beginner Box layout, though, because it has proven to be a good layout for teaching this game.

Just want to say that I'm very excited for this product. I've introduced a couple brand-new players to Pathfinder in the last few months and when I finally got my hands on a copy of the Beginner Box and read through it last night, well, I was kicking myself that I didn't have that to use three months ago! :-P

They're doing pretty well now with the game, but I can still see this book being very helpful in giving them (and future players I might introduce to PF) the comprehensive overview of the system. Help take them from that stage where they're trying to integrate all the ad hoc "this is how this one thing works" explanations to a grasp of how the whole functions.

doc the grey wrote:

My other hope is that this helps paizo figure out a better layout for the core rulebook proper so that we might get a more fluid edition of that coming down the pipe. I'm getting really sick of some of the insane amounts of searching I've had to do to find innocuous things in there and maybe this will help find that right balance on how to present the metric ton of data the CRB brings to the table.

We learned a lot while creating the Beginner Box, and we will learn a lot from this.

Yay!

Awesome, another product for the core rules. I truly hope we see an Advanced NPC Codex sometime soon though (and then an Ultimate NPC Codex released sometime after that one).

Removed a post and the replies. If you have feedback on our current products, this really isn't the best thread. Please revisit the messageboard rules.

I'm getting this, because there is always room for improvement.

Okay, this existing amuses the hell out of me because it validates the existence of class guides. I honestly don't think Paizo is the best people to be commenting on their own mechanics with their grasp of the rules, but I am interested to see the suggestions.

What I will say is that I hope this book comes with some crunch, or else I doubt I could see myself picking it up.

Okay, this existing amuses the hell out of me because it validates the existence of class guides. I honestly don't think Paizo is the best people to be commenting on their own mechanics with their grasp of the rules, but I am interested to see the suggestions.

What I will say is that I hope this book comes with some crunch, or else I doubt I could see myself picking it up.

First, this book is more or less designed for beginners. It is a book to help develop the best strategy for a character in a group setting. It will contain very little if any "crunch". They have basically said this since the beginning.

Secondly, I think that Paizo commenting on their own product is best because they designed it. I am not sure what makes you think that Paizo would be bad on their own mechanics but who better then the ones who KNOW their own rules best??

First, this book is more or less designed for beginners. It is a book to help develop the best strategy for a character in a group setting. It will contain very little if any "crunch". They have basically said this since the beginning.

Secondly, I think that Paizo commenting on their own product is best because they designed it. I am not sure what makes you think that Paizo would be bad on their own mechanics but who better then the ones who KNOW their own rules best??

I don't know if as a beginner I would buy a book based around playing a game that requires a massive player's handbook first. That seems counter intuitive to me. If this product is saying "Yeah the game is fun, but here's how you play it if the basic rules we gave you are too hard" seems intimidating. For me, this seems like a guide for an intermediate group of players, ones who have their feet wet already and are really starting to muck about in places. And the lack of crunch bothers me, but que sera sera on that one.

And by that statement I was thinking from more of an optimization standpoint, which the title "strategy guide" would lead me to believe. I see strategy guide, and I'm going to assume this guide gives me an optimal strategy for playing X, Y, or Z class. And the level of optimization as shown from things like the Iconics is not high ( I think even in one of the soft covers that had their personal PCs from a game they were running they stated they weren't optimized.) We know that the Devs aren't the biggest optimizers, that's fine. It's a legitimate play style, same as any other. But having someone on the lower end of thing offer advice doesn't draw my attention that much. I'm interested in seeing it, maybe I'll be proven wrong, but mostly I'll just be looking forward to the artwork in this book.

Now if this is something like the later half of the 3.5 Player's Handbook 2 (the best 3.5 book IMO), where it talks about the metagame concepts of party dynamics (like multiples of the same style of character), bookkeeping, and ways to help a party work together, that'd be great. I'd love sections on how to allow different party members to take the spotlight in different situations and how to set them up for it as a topic to keep the rotating spotlight working. But what I don't expect to be impressed with is build mechanics.

I apologize, what I said was not informed as to what I meant. All I meant is that build wise I don't feel like the advice will be as useful as it could, but from a metagame perspective I could greatly see enjoying how they would encourage dynamics and other such things.

And by that statement I was thinking from more of an optimization standpoint, which the title "strategy guide" would lead me to believe. I see strategy guide, and I'm going to assume this guide gives me an optimal strategy for playing X, Y, or Z class. And the level of optimization as shown from things like the Iconics is not high. We know that the Devs aren't the biggest optimizers, that's fine. It's a legitimate play style, same as any other. But having someone on the lower end of thing offer advice doesn't draw my attention that much. I'm interested in seeing it, maybe I'll be proven wrong, but mostly I'll just be looking forward to the artwork in this book.

It is my understanding that the Strategy Guide isn't a guide to optimization at all. It's a tool primarily for people who are new to the game, guiding them in the right direction. "Want to play an archer? Well then this feat and that feat will work well for you." "Here's how specialist wizards work and which game mechanics go well with the concept." All this from the perspective of helping people who are new to the game navigate through the monster that is the core rulebook.

For optimizers, this is probably not the best option out there, but then they're not the target audience for this book.

Wow, that book got shoved back hard. Hopefully the AGC doesn't suffer as a result.

I'm surprised at all the people who don't understand the purpose of this book. Having something like this doesn't mean the CRB is somehow "done wrong". It just means the CRB is a long way from the BB.

BB = addition and subtraction
CRB = logarithms and exponentials

Now, it would be pretty damn useful to learn about multiplication and division somewhere between those two products. And the helpfulness of multiplication and division in learning logarithms and exponentials in no way means that logarithms and exponentials are somehow "done wrong".

We're dealing with levels of complexity here, not levels of right and wrong. BB is level 1 and CRB is level 3 complexity. SG is aimed at level 2 complexity. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

And sure, they could bring the CRB down to level 2 complexity, but that would mean stripping out 50% of the rules too. Most people want to keep some level of compatibility between their systems. As long as Pathfinder intends to stay compatible with 3.5 and PF itself, the CRB cannot be made level 2 complexity. Therefore, a "multiplication and division" guide is a very good idea to help those "addition and subtraction" students move upwards in their understanding.

BB = addition and subtraction

CRB = logarithms and exponentials

Now, it would be pretty damn useful to learn about multiplication and division somewhere between those two products.

Nice analogy.

Samy wrote:

BB = addition and subtraction

CRB = logarithms and exponentials

Now, it would be pretty damn useful to learn about multiplication and division somewhere between those two products.

Nice analogy.

As an historic note, for the longest time the whole point of learning logs & exponents was to convert multiplication into addition and likewise for division and subtraction. The log of a product is the sum of the logs of the multiplicands. Thus, one hard mult is replaced by two table look ups (or slide rule uses), an easy addition, and one more table look up to exponentiate the sum. Likewise, the log of a quotient is the the log of the dividend minus the log of the divisor.

Of course, since the semiconductor revolution, that's been less relevant, though depending on the architecture, these facts may be used in how the machine does these kinds of calculations.

Myself and the other group GM are always making sure we have at least one game running that caters to people that don't normally play or are beginners. This book is something I desperately want, even the players with some experience don't have to build too many characters, so this will help them learn a new character when the game changes or their character dies.

Heck, I've been playing tabletop RPGs for almost 40 years now, although I only got introduced to Pathfinder a few years ago. There are a lot of things I know now that I wish I'd known when I started out with the new system. Just one example: it's not immediately apparent that it's a good idea to have a reasonable INT, even when building a martial character. I don't know if that will be mentioned in this book, but I'm sure it will be full of equally useful nuggets of information. I'm also sure that while I may not need to be told about everything in the book, I will find some things that I'd missed.

The CRB is a reference work; it's not a tutorial. I'd like to see more "Dummy's Guide to Pathfinder" books (such as, say, an introduction to the new classes introduced in the APG+UC+UM+ACG).

I soon may have a group of all new or beginner players. This can't come quickly enough.

It sounds like it will go a long way to help neophytes learn how to build the character of their dreams. In doing so it builds the community.

I'm actually kinda glad this got pushed back to June. Money has been strapped kinda tight for me since shortly after New Year's. Gives me more time to scrimp together the funds to put down a preorder.

Okay, this existing amuses the hell out of me because it validates the existence of class guides. I honestly don't think Paizo is the best people to be commenting on their own mechanics with their grasp of the rules, but I am interested to see the suggestions.

What I will say is that I hope this book comes with some crunch, or else I doubt I could see myself picking it up.

From everything I've read and heard about this product, it's intended for newer players and those possibly transitioning from the Beginner's Box to the Core Rulebook. As such, it's perfectly fine experienced players to not pick it up. We (experienced players) aren't really the audience it is intended for (unless you think you might have new players at your table that could benefit from it).

Also, I doubt it covers much beyond the CRB options, but I could be wrong. 160 pages isn't much room if you talk about a theme for each of the 11 core classes, plus multi-classing, plus discussing things like maneuvers, AoOs, and so on. I doubt much, or any, of the book will be given over to talking about optimization.

-Skeld

Thank you so much for this book, Paizo. If it's even half as useful as I think it will be, I'll be happy.

This is going to be a godsend for the middle-school students I GM, as well as for my adult group (especially my one new player and two veterans who are so intimidated by the CRB that they still just rely on the rest of us during any level-up situation). But mostly, I'm picking this up for myself! I wish I'd had this book when I started playing Pathfinder. I already had a year's experience playing in a 3.5 campaign, but when I picked up the Core Rulebook I quickly realized I was way out of my depth. I've taught myself number theory from a textbook before, but, especially because I didn't have anyone with experience to help me learn the rules, this felt harder! The Core Rulebook was often daunting and befuddling. It's only now, after two years of playing and GMing and lots of careful reading, that I finally feel I've gained enough of an intuitive sense of the rules to be able to strategize with any real ease or agility. Of course I'm always learning more.

The CRB has very little guidance or strategy -- it's almost 100% rules, and that's it. All those rules and facts are great reference for veterans. But I think what it's hard for veterans to appreciate is just how much knowledge it really takes to put all these rules in their proper context. The CRB tells you what a rule is, but it doesn't tell you what that *means* for your character or *why* the rules are this way.

Here's a sort of odd example of what some interpretation of the rules can do: I never thought twice about "unseen servant" the first several times I came across it. Sure, I could understand the rules of how it worked and it sounded potentially useful for exploring dubious dungeon rooms at a distance, but that didn't mean much to me. It took reading the forums to realize that unseen servant is awesome partly because it means my wizard doesn't have to expend so many actions to get out all those potions, wands, rods, and scrolls. Other examples: it's not immediately obvious that you should have a wand of this spell you cast a lot but shouldn't have a wand of that other spell you cast a lot. Or that one of the advantages of being a wizard rather than a sorcerer is combining your ability to know a lot of different spells with your scribe scroll bonus feat to create a stockpile of great but situationally useful spells. And maybe most importantly: I was grateful to class guides on the forums for introducing me to the concept of a control wizard. I had already conceived, fuzzily, of having my wizard do some kind of battlefield control, but having a clear concept was beyond helpful. I drew on pieces of the advice I saw to make my favorite character ever to play!

Where this book can help the most is giving old and new players alike a framework for understanding the rules. Then, with this framework well in hand, they'll have a good solid ground they can use to interpret all the information in the CRB. Players can even use this framework to understand the APG and UC and UM, even without those books being explicitly included here. (I'm disappointed that material from those books won't be covered in this guide, but I completely understand the reasoning.) I think that it'll even make it more possible for a lot of people to think more creatively, because they'll be grounded enough that they can then entertain wacky ideas, rather than desperately trying to get their footing.

I also hope that this book will highlight some of the most iconic (if not necessarily always the most optimized) spells, items, and features in the game. Things like glitterdust or rope trick or the ten-foot-pole aren't highlighted in the CRB; you're largely left to spot them for yourself in a sea of noise.

Basically, I'm happy to see this book because Pathfinder, like D&D, is overflowing with unwritten conventions and assumptions that are invisible to the game designers and veteran players but are huge stumbling blocks for new players and experienced players who, overwhelmed by the sheer volume of the rules, are just in the habit of following along. Even long-time veterans can always benefit from a new perspective not necessarily reflected in their groups' assumptions.

As someone who just got into P&PRPGs about a year or two ago, I can honestly say that this book is perfect for me. While I do understand the basic rules for character creation and what have you, it's easy to forget every minute rule. I mean, we're talking about a system where the rules for making a character are spread out over the first 8-10 chapter of a 600-page book. That daunting as hell. Suffice it to say, it becomes very hard to remember every little aspect of the system. So, color me very interested.

Vic, Lisa, Paizo - thank you for this!

I'm 26 and until 2012 I had never played a tabletop RPG. My wife and I, after watching the D&D episode of the TV show Community (and just from being geeks), decided to purchase the Pathfinder Beginner Box because it seemed like it could be fun.

A few weeks later we gathered two other couples that had never played tabletop RPGs and gave it a shot. It was a ton of fun and we spent the next year playing (every few weeks or so) through the Beginner Box adventures, and some homebrew adventures.

When we finally finished the Beginner Box we took a long break of several months. Now we're diving in with the Core Rulebook, Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, Bestiary 1, Gamemastery Guide, Inner Sea Guide and more. I'm loving the world you've created and the system of rules to play in.

But as you've said, it's a lot of information and it's spread all around. Our group, while very excited to enjoy Pathfinder, can't individually dedicate the time to really dig in to the rules and glean strategies and "good ideas" for how to play or what would even be a sensible choice.

The Strategy Guide was made for us (and apparently a lot of middle-schoolers :P) and I'm very excited to get a copy in my hands. Thank you for trying to push Pathfinder to a wider audience.

The Core Rulebook gives all the rules for all the (core) classes. So it has all the feats, etc. But if a newbie or intermediate player with say a fighter sees that list of feats and just sees gibberish, the Strategy Guide will say ignore all these feats here cause they don't apply to fighters. Just look at these feats, and these are the ones to pick at 1st level, then if you want sword and board pick from these, if you're going for ranged attacks these feats are good, etc.
Not as an optimization but just to winnow down the abilities each class needs to focus on, and which levels they should be taken at.
Been playing since 1st edition and I'm still picking up one. And will have it on hand when newbies want to learn more of the nuances of the game. That CRB really does scare new players!

Vic, Lisa, Paizo - thank you for this!

I'm 26 and until 2012 I had never played a tabletop RPG. My wife and I, after watching the D&D episode of the TV show Community (and just from being geeks), decided to purchase the Pathfinder Beginner Box because it seemed like it could be fun.

Then hopefully you know that the second D&D episode of Community airs soon.

Just added Community to Sky never miss - not sure when old eps are retransmitted but hopefully will get the newer D&D one - it is series 5 right? sorry, season 5.

Off topic

But yeah Advanced Advanced Dungeons & Dragons is the next episode to air in America. Should be Thursday. (The Original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons was Episode 6 of Season 2 I believe.)

The original episode was one of the few pop culture references that got it mostly right.

Closer to topic

That episode along with The Gamers: Dorkness Rising tend to be the two things I prod new players into watching after they have some familiarity.

On Topic

Is it June yet? I have a pool of 20 or so players (with a wide range of experience) to deal with.

Please stay on topic in the product discussion threads. There's a thread to talk about Community here.

We've updated the release date for this product from June to October.

We've updated the release date for this product from June to October.

:(

October?

That saddens me.

This seems like a great product for the uninitiated and less detail oriented.

Looking forward to checking it out.

I'm sad, but my bank account thanks you!

To sum up, I see it as their own version of the Advice thread started so long ago, but in their own words and view. The aim being to take someone unfamiliar with a class and how it plays, then showing them how to build one that can be effective in a group adventure. All the while giving options so the player can build something they like.

Well, I was planning to buy this for my wife when it came out, and pushing it back to October means it'll be one of her anniversary gifts :)

So wait. Are there seriously only two hardcover books coming out this year, or does Inner Sea Gods count against our hardcovers-per-year book limit?

Calendar 2014 Hardcovers

Emerald Spire Superdungeon
Inner Sea Gods
Strategy Guide
Advanced Class Guide
Adversary book (probably either NPC Codex 2 or Bestiary 5, probably announcing at Paizo Con)

For me, the whole problem is nobody really understands the target audience, which what this thread says to me - and that's a problem in itself if even we can't agree.

What do I need to play? Even if you just say "Core Rulebook", there then proceeds to be a long series of "then what is this for?", "you don't need it, but..." for each product in the list.

I love Pathfinder and it's my go to system for myself and my players, but I do worry about the number of books coming out with elements that cross over into each other's territories. That's what hurt 3.5e in the end and I'd rather not have Pathfinder fall into the same trap.

I'm really confused as to what this supposed to be. Some descriptions make it sound like it is a beginner's guide which holds your hand through making a character, others make it sound like it is a concise set of character generation/leveling rules.

I really hope it is the latter, because that is what I need. I much prefer the D&D break up of the rules into a PHB and DMG instead of smushing them together the way the Core Rulebook does. Most of my players refuse to buy the corebook (they've bought the pdf, but prefer using the physical book) because all they really want/need is the Race, Class, Feats, Skills and Spells chapters.

A quick question. The Inner Sea Gods book has the release month for May. The site says October. Which one is the correct release month?

October is the correct release month.

I imagine the decision to move the Strategy Guide to October was made after Inner Sea Gods had been shipped off to the printer.

Has the cover been updated?

I'm really confused as to what this supposed to be. Some descriptions make it sound like it is a beginner's guide which holds your hand through making a character, others make it sound like it is a concise set of character generation/leveling rules.

It gives you a fair amount of of handholding through the process of creating a character, and through leveling up the first time, but as you continue to level, it assumes you have gained an understanding of the basic process and focuses more on the available choices instead of the process.

The cover has not been finalized yet—it is an October release.

Just noticed the delay in the release date. That's unfortunate--I have a relatively new player who could really use a book like this and I told him to keep an eye out for this coming out soon.

Probably by the time it does come out, he will feel less like he needs or be as interested in it.

Sorry to hear that, DeathQuaker. This is pretty different from the books we normally do, so we're trying to make sure we get it right.

Awesome! I hadn’t noticed this upcoming release until now!
Will this book contain the animal companion table (for leveling up your AC)?
I really hope so. That would be very useful if you are a new player?
What about traits?

I will get this for a friend of mine. Even though he played for many years, he has never been good at building characters. I think he will love the gift.

I might even get one for myself just to have it in the self. New advice is always good. :D

Gorbacz wrote:

Vic, is this book going to focus just on core options or will APG/UM/UC classes get some love too?

The focus is very much on the Core rulebook content. "How to make a ranger" will be a big thing, for example, along with the other 10 core classes... but we'll have a small section that touches briefly on options for advanced players. (Mainly, that'll be letting players know they exist, providing a short overview of each concept, then telling them where to find more.)

So it touches briefly on all other classes, APG; UC; AM and ACG?

I Think that would be good ide to focus on the core book, but to at least inform new players of all the other classes. At least the classes from APG, UC and UM. Especially thouse from the APG.

This book is focused 99.9% on the 11 Core Rulebook classes. Outside of that, we're talking a few sentences here and there.