Unruly's page

559 posts (2,824 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. 2 wishlists. 14 aliases.


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Please cancel my subscriptions for the time being. Nothing against the folks at Paizo, but I just haven't really been able to play the game in over year so it's not worth it for me to continue buying the product until I know I'll be using it again.

Thank you.

Holy crap! How did I miss this being released?! I missed the KS, and have been waiting patiently, but I guess I got too patient and didn't pay enough attention. I didn't even see the page go up for preorders! I could have sworn that I'd checked on it since August...

And now I'm semi-broke until after New Year's, so I can't order it right away. Poop. I guess I just have to wait and be jealous, and hope that I either get one of the initial color print run, or that the second/subsequent runs are also in color. Not that I'd hate a black and white copy, but color just makes things better.

Boo at another delay! Boo! Hiss! Although, to be entirely honest, it's probably for the better because my funds are taking a much harder hit this holiday season than normal.

Stupid people getting married at this time of year and making me shell out loads of money for tux rentals, travel, and gifts...

I know that RA has the "immortal poo" entrance that's supposed to be the easy one, but even that seems to ramp up in difficulty fairly quickly. I seem to recall it going from EL 4 to EL 10 almost instantly at times. I know that's a recurring theme in RA, the drastic EL jumping between areas, but at that low of a level it's much more apparent and the PCs have far fewer ways to avoid or escape them.

The thing about PFS scenarios having different stat blocks depending on party level is nice.

The number of players interested in playing isn't really the biggest problem. Or at least it's a problem that I like to have and know how to tackle on its own. I had originally intended to run two groups through Kingmaker, but the issue of finding a day and time that worked for everyone in each group stopped that from happening.

So now I've pretty much decided on running older, shorter modules and PFS scenarios, and then later moving on to running Rappan Athuk once everyone gets a character that's level 6 or above. That way players dropping in and out shouldn't matter nearly as much. Rappan Athuk, once they get there, should prove interesting because I'll let them run any character they have that's over level 6 regardless of what the levels are of everyone else. For everything else I'm going to have them play a character that's within 2 levels of the lowest level PC there that night in order to keep power level discrepancy at a minimum.

But I do have another question - I'm looking at some of the PFS scenarios and I see they sometimes have a large level range listed. How is it that a module can be designed for levels 1-7 without being too tough for a group of just level 1's, or too easy for a group of level 7's? Do they have notes on how to scale the adventure based on APL?

Well, I do already own Rappan Athuk so I could go that way if I need to. However, at least one of my potential players is completely new to RPGs and I'd prefer to not have their first experience be such an unforgiving slaughterhouse. Especially considering it's supposed to start with a PC at level 6, which for most people I know is right around the time they've gotten a decent handle on a class's quirks if it's their first time playing. So it would be a crushing case of just tossing them overboard and yelling "swim!"

The PFS scenarios idea would probably work better, at least at the start. I'll have to look and see what they're like, since I know they're meant to be played out in a single session. But my sessions are probably going to be on the shorter end of normal, usually only 3-4 hours.

A frequent tactic is also to do things like tack on the Advanced simple template to most things the party faces, especially the enemies that are supposed to be the tough guys to beat. An extra +2 to just about everything important and a bit of extra health can go a pretty long way in a lot of cases. If that doesn't work, maybe throw things like the Fiendish/Celestial/Entropic/Resolute simple templates on top of that.

And more mooks are always a good thing. Why would an evil warlord wade into battle alone when he can have his whole retinue of bodyguards, friends, and champions fighting beside him?

Lately I've been trying to setup a regular game with a group of my friends, but I've run into a couple problems.

Problem 1 is that there are about 10 people wanting to play, which isn't so much a problem in itself except that I don't generally like sessions with more than 6 PCs. Things just kind of bog down in combat when you've got an initiative list that's 20+ long, and it becomes harder to find time for everyone to do the things they want to do. I just don't want to leave anyone out if I can avoid it while still, hopefully, keeping the party at 6 PCs or less most of the time.

Problem 2 is that of those 10 people interested, only one has a schedule that seems to mesh with mine to the point that we could set up a regular game day/time. Everyone else is on a schedule that changes weekly or is on a different shift than I'm on. It makes setting up a day/time a real pain.

I thought the way I'd solve these problems would be to try and turn them into advantages. So I'm going to try having the game on different days of the week each time we play, see who shows up, and then have things continue from there. I just haven't figured out what to do when it comes to the roster potentially changing each time we play. I mean, how are you supposed to handle the party possibly having all but one person from the previous session missing, when the previous session ended in the middle of some kind of dungeon crawl or diplomatic encounter?

So, anyone out there have any advice for how to run a game with no real "regulars" at the table?

I'm a big fan of the Skeletal Champion. It also happens to fit all of your criteria pretty well. It retains its memories, has class levels, and doesn't have any special powers. You'll have to kinda handwave the fact that there isn't a spell in the CRB that creates them, but that doesn't preclude some secretive ritual or something.

Tack on an extra +1 CR and make it a Bloody or Burning Skeletal Champion for extra fun. Or just use those, and other skeleton variants templates, as ways to liven up later encounters with stronger Skeletal Champions.

EDIT: As others have said, the huecuva works well too. Especially since it has the added benefit of providing a buff for all nearby undead.

Kajehase wrote:

Boo for Columbus!

Cheers for Leif Eriksson!

Boo for Leif Eriksson!

Cheers for Paleo-Indians!

Yea, previous lore was the same way about the Blind Eternities. Basically, a planeswalker was able to create a bubble of normal space around them that prevented them from getting torn apart by the various energies that filled the void.

As for the "everyone or no one" issue regarding planeswalkers and jedi, you're going to have that when one type of character is supposed to be head-and-shoulders above the rest in terms of their abilities. It's a sad fact of the way that those types of characters work in their original fiction. It's much easier to write them as a narrative piece where their power level can vary at times, so you can provide instances where they're weakened or whatever and need help from others, while still having them be really powerful in general. But when you try to codify that into a set of strict rules for an RPG you end up with a situation where you can't adjust their power level as it suits the particular scene. So you either ignore the existing canon and make them balanced, or you have them be an obvious better choice to every other option. Either way you go you end up with angry fans because your particular representation doesn't fit into whichever category they wanted.

Cardz5000 wrote:

Thinking on it more, I would probably have it be an acquired template that advanced with HD. Still very much in the hands of the DM.

Unfortunetly I haven't read many of the MTG books, it there any precedent set for PWs dragging normal folk along as they sojourn?

For the old, Urza-style planeswalkers, yes. Urza took a bunch of people with him all over the place, and I know Teferi took at least a few. Namely, Barrin, Jhoira, and Xantcha are the ones I remember most. I seem to remember reading that it was an unpleasant experience for just about everyone except Barrin, but that was only because he'd been through it so many times that he knew what to expect and had created spells specifically to make the trip easier. I think everyone else was basically told to hold their breath and prepare for some discomfort.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:
Utarga wrote:
I'm not familiar with the MTG material, but based on other people's feedback, it seems like planeswalkers are a pretty powerful thing, eh?

Back before the great retcon planeswalkers were at least minor deities. They hoarded mana by the semi load, and it took a Supertanker full just to ascend to that level.

Now planeswalkers can be just an average wizard that through some happenstance had their spark awakened. Sparks didn't even exist before the retcon. I think Nicol Bolas is the only planeswalker that was in power before the retcon, and he is incredibly nerfed now.

The way it is written now there would be no way to make the old style planeswalker, but you've got a good start for the newer ones. They seem to me a bit more martial than you're stating them though. I think I would push their BAB up a step.

Pretty sure the spark was in existence before the retcon, but it was a more nebulous and mystical thing than what it is now. Which is why certain things, outside of just having tons and tons of mana, caused the birth of a planeswalker. For instance, in Urza's case it was being caught in the center of the Sylex Blast. But Barrin used himself to cast the same spell instead of relying on an artifact, and he didn't become one because he lacked the spark. At the same time, Karn was basically given Urza's spark, which was apparently held in the Mightstone and Weakstone, in order to become a planeswalker.

But yea, it would be impossible to make a pre-retcon planeswalker as a balanced class of any sort, if only for the fact that they were nigh-immortal. Their physical form wasn't even necessarily real, it was a projection of their consciousness and if they concentrated they could have themselves physically in multiple places, across vast distances, at once. Basically, the only way to kill them was to completely destroy their soul. You're pretty much talking Mythic 10 at that point alone, not to mention the other things the old planeswalkers were capable of.

From what I've read of the new planeswalkers, they're basically just powerful, maybe Mythic 2, versions of normal classes. Not even really at the demigod level, but still pretty much head and shoulders above the majority of non-planeswalkers. The only thing they have that truly sets them apart from just being skilled/powerful ordinary people is the ability to actually planeswalk. Of course, I've only read the initial Time Spiral cycle books, which was right when the retcon happened, so maybe they've upped their power a bit more since then.

On to the topic of making a homebrew class, I'm intrigued to see what all you come up with in the future. You're basically going to have to rewrite the entire magic system in order to make an MtG-style manacasting system, and that's no small undertaking.

Got my auth as well. Too bad I'm probably going to be near the back end of the shipping line because of my sidecarted sale items needing to be hand picked. Oh well, the savings make it well worth the wait.

Liz Courts wrote:
Unruly wrote:
Sorry to double post, but it's too late to edit and I don't see if this is mentioned anywhere - Are we allowed to sidecart these items, or do they have to ship out as soon as possible?
At this time, you are allowed to add them to your sidecart. HOWEVER, this means that *anything* you add to your subscription order is going to delay it significantly, as it shunts it out of our normal subscription processes and must be hand-picked.

Ok, I was just checking because I knew that last year it wasn't allowed for the sale. I'm fine with waiting some extra time for my package when it's coming with a whole bunch of discount goodies in it.

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blackbloodtroll wrote:
Combine with Insistent Doorknocker, and make door, then break door down.

"Oi, was this door always here?"

"Iunno. Maybe."

"Better just ignore it then..."

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Axial wrote:
Unruly wrote:

Clone master alchemist named Eldon Tyrell(or Hannibal Chew). A Tian investigator named Gaff. A bard(geisha? street performer?) named Pris or Zhora.

Maybe J.F. Sebastian could be a master summoner? Hordes of summoned monsters instead of his toys. Or just a wizard that focuses on summoning and/or creating constructs.

What about Rachael?

It's a shame; she didn't live. But then again, who does?

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Clone master alchemist named Eldon Tyrell(or Hannibal Chew). A Tian investigator named Gaff. A bard(geisha? street performer?) named Pris or Zhora.

Maybe J.F. Sebastian could be a master summoner? Hordes of summoned monsters instead of his toys. Or just a wizard that focuses on summoning and/or creating constructs.

2000 emails? Ouch. What's causing the massive influx lately? You guys normally seem to be pretty snappy about resolving things, so I can only assume that there's something new causing issues.

Sorry to double post, but it's too late to edit and I don't see if this is mentioned anywhere - Are we allowed to sidecart these items, or do they have to ship out as soon as possible?

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Boo! I had to wait until today to try and order something, and now it's sold out and never to return! CURSE YOU WHOEVER ORDERED THE LAST COPY OF SHACKLED CITY! CURSE YOU!

I will hunt you down and find you. And when I do, I will politely ask if I can borrow it. And if you say yes, I will never return it.

Semi-related to September shipping, and not something I feel the need or desire to create a separate thread for, but how is the customer service email backlog coming along?

I had a minor issue with my September shipment that caused me to send an email, and I'm wondering if there's an estimate for the turnaround time on emails. As I said, the issue was minor, and I did receive my shipment, so it's not that I'm in a rush. I just want to try and be sure that this particular issue isn't going to pop up again for October's shipment.

Thanks for the explanations. It seems that I was completely off-base with how I was envisioning the class decks. The only card games that I really played were Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh, and so my guess was that the class decks would be bigger in play and that the optional side decks would be more important for allowing you to switch up things.

I watched the first part of the GreyElephant Brigandoom video yesterday, but haven't had a chance to watch any others to really form an opinion yet. I'll have to watch the rest and hopefully get a better understanding of how things go.

I'm not exactly sure how the PACG works, aside from I think it's supposed to be similar to the WoW CCG, which I never played. All I know is that each player gets a class deck, there's a communal adventure deck, and that you draw and play cards to proceed through the adventure, but that's about it. So I was wondering is people could answer a few questions for me.

How exactly does play progress?

Are you able to customize your class decks or are they set in stone?

Can you use class decks from one adventure(say RotRL) with a different adventure(S&S) or are you stuck with whatever classes are put out for each adventure?

How does your character evolve through play, and how do you keep track of that between play sessions and between parts of an adventure?

I'm looking at this as an alternative to starting a second Pathfinder RPG group, due to limited time for planning a second full campaign. But I've put money into other things that I knew little to nothing about and had them become false starts way too often to risk spending $60+ blindly.

If there's some kind of video that gives a rundown of the rules and goes through a session of the game, sort of like an episode of TableTop would, then that would probably go a long way towards answering a lot of my questions.

Skeld wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Skeld wrote:

Take a high-res snapshot of each page of the AP. Insert the picture into a document (like MS Word; 1 image per page). Convert it to a PDF. Have it printed as a B&W, hardcover on Lulu.


Seems like a lot of extra effort when you are allowed to print a PDF for personal use.

Compiled hardcover, as in putting all 6 issues of an AP into a single hardcover book. You can print on a home printer, but I dont know of anyone that can print and bind 6 issues into a single hardback. I'm not sure Kinkos et al can do a 600 page saddle-stitch book. Lulu can do it for about $30 (B&W) and you can add/remove pages as needed.

Remember, people are asking about compiled hardbacks, not "printed on a home printer and put into a 3-ring binder."


Will Lulu let me print a single book that's comprised of 6 separate PDFs or would I have to somehow find a way to compile them into a single file? I'm getting ready to run Kingmaker, and while PDFs are handy, I much prefer having physical books. If I can get a big, fat, comprehensive book printed by Lulu, that would be awesome!

At least you're not in the cellar, in the bottom of a locked file cabinet, in a disused lavatory, with a sign on the door that says "Beware of the Leopard."

If you've got your authorization email, just not the shipping email, then I doubt there's a problem. Authorization order and shipping order aren't tied together, and shipping usually takes at least a week, and up to 2, to get done with everyone. It just depends on where you are in line as to when you'll get your stuff.

Nezzmith, you have to still wait until they actually ship your stuff before they add the PDFs to your downloads. They authorize the card to make sure the funds are there, but they don't actually push the charge through until they ship your stuff. So even after getting your authorization email, you'll still probably have to wait a couple days to get access to the PDFs.

But then, once you get access to your PDFs, you'll know that your stuff is on its way. I like to think of them as teasers and samples for when the physical copies arrive, because I'd rather thumb through a real book than deal with ebook page rendering times.

My computer isn't slow and should render in no time flat, Adobe! Your software just sucks!

Nezzmith, that's a common display bug. Happens all the time, which is why they have that disclaimer at the top of the subscription management page.

Just keep an eye out for your authorization email and an eye on this thread. If you don't get an authorization email by the time Sara Marie posts that authorizations are completed, then you might want to contact customer service.

I was wondering why my subscriptions has been showing "Authorized Date: Today" for the last 4 or 5 days. At first I was getting worried, because I had to make some sort-of last minute changes to my payment method for a sidecart item and my subscriptions thanks to some jerk trying to use my credit card and making me cancel it last week. I was thinking that they might be having problems authorizing on the new card.

But now I see that it wasn't my fault. Or at least, it isn't my fault yet. I'll find out for sure when I finally get my authorization email.

Thanks for the updates!

Under "Lodging and Services" in Ultimate Equipment, the cost of an Inn Stay(Poor) is listed as 2gp. I think it's supposed to be 2sp, which is the price it's listed as under the CRB's equipment section.

Also, down in the Ultimate Equipment description for Inn Stay it has the price range listed as 2gp-32gp, when it should be 2sp-32gp.

Name Violation wrote:
is everyone runnin around like in reign the conqueror

This thread necro made me happy because someone else remembered Reign the Conqueror. I never read the manga, but the anime was pretty good. I really wish Peter Chung did more work. I've always had a soft spot for his style. A lot of people don't like it, but I love it.

Steve Geddes wrote:
Chris Lambertz wrote:
Just a quick note about moderators from the community: we appreciate the suggestion and enthusiasm on this front. However, we have no plans to elect moderators from the community at this time.
I've seen people raise concerns about this course if action before, but never understood what the downside is. Can someone enlighten me?

Petty fiefdoms and tin-pot dictators.

If you've ever played any FPS games online that used dedicated servers, you'll have probably experienced it. If those games were niche games as well, then you've probably experienced it more than most. If you've ever been on a private forum for just about anything, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd experienced it. Just go to Wikipedia and look at the fights that break out between major editors over generally inconsequential topics sometime.

Basically, you give someone a modicum of power or control, and they abuse the crap out of it eventually. Game server admins are notorious for it, as are private forum admins. Unless there are some extreme vetting procedures and massive oversight, you'll have abuses. And once those start happening, the game server/forum/website/whatever starts to die. It isn't a guaranteed death, but at the very least you'll end up with a stagnating userbase as people go elsewhere.

One thing to remember is that Beyond Morality still maintains the "up to GM discretion" trump card.

For instance, I have a player who is playing a Paladin of Iomedae and who plans on taking Beyond Morality as a means of bypassing certain restrictions on a Paladin's conduct. Namely, he wants to be able to interrogate people the way The Punisher would - through threats of force and possibly torture - and being able to dispose of those prisoners who are beyond redemption once they've exhausted their usefulness. I've explained to him that, as a paladin of Iomedae, and a mythic one at that, who basically becomes her shining beacon of the crusades, that he's going to have to be a little bit more discerning about what he does in public, but that he'll have a lot more leeway away from prying, idolizing eyes. I've also let him know that egregious violations of her paladin's code, such as abandoning his friends, leaving them and his army for dead, as he runs away from the battlefield to go get a beer or something, will still result in him drawing Iomedae's ire and possibly result in his loss of paladin abilities. Basically, I told him that just because he's above mortal morality doesn't mean that he can get away with anything that he wants. He's still beholden to Iomedae for his Paladinhood. And while she may turn a blind eye so long as he's serving the greater good, if he starts doing things that make her look bad and gets people questioning what she stands for because she's letting him get away with it, then she will intervene in some way.

And he was fine with it, because I laid it out for him before the issue actually managed to come up.

So, in short, I'd allow it, but I'd make sure that your players knew that it didn't mean they had carte blanche to do whatever they wanted with no repercussions at all. Just because they no longer have a true alignment doesn't mean that people's opinions of them can't change or that they can't piss off the god that grants them their powers.

I regret to inform all who have expressed interest that, until further notice, I am canceling my plans to run Rappan Athuk. I haven't had the time to draw up the maps in an acceptable manner, and I can say, with a strong amount of certainty, that this summer will not be any better in that regard for various reasons that I won't go into here. I will continue to work on the maps, however, and if and when I get them finished I will send a PM to anyone who previously expressed interest to let them know that I'll be running RA at that time.

I'm really sorry for getting anyone's hopes up, but I did have all intention of running the game when I first made this thread. If I didn't, I wouldn't have shelled out $100 on RA itself and then another $100 on Campaign Cartographer/Dungeon Designer. This was no small investment on my part, and until I actually get the game running it will feel like one that was largely wasted.

Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
Too bad there's no dual sycthe like weapon for a dark Templar :(

The original Dark Templar used what were basically katars, which were much cooler in my opinion. The entire unit redesign for SC2 was kinda lame, I thought.

Anyway, Master Summoner with a Neutral or Evil alignment will let you summon monsters with the Fiendish template. Since all of the Zerg units are terrible, fiendish perversions of their original, unassimilated forms it would fit perfectly. Fiendish dog/wolf? Zergling. Fiendish fire beetle? Broodling. Fiendish triceratops? Ultralisk. Hydralisk is a tough one, since not much of the summon monster list has natural ranged attacks, and those that do don't get templates applied, but you've got all sorts of possible Zerg by just adding the Fiendish template to the stuff that you can.

Matt Thomason wrote:
Personally, I'm thinking this is a perfect case for judicious use of regexps to remove the innermost quotes until the overall size fits within the required character count.

I agree with this. After the second quotation, you're usually no longer replying to the earlier nested quotes and are instead replying to the most recent. Cutting out the oldest quotes entirely is a better way to go about limiting nested quote spam, in my opinion at least.

Jeremy Smith wrote:
DSmaster21 wrote:

Wait, are you complaining about Dreamscarred/Paizo's handling of the situation or of what is happening on their end? You might want to rephrase your post to be a little less ambiguous and either complain about of the publishers or take a shot directly at Paizo/DP. If your intent is to complain about the publisher this could be misconstrued as blaming Paizo/DP. But if your intent is to complain to Paizo/DP then this is kinda of a poor way to do so. Just come out and say what you want to say instead of skirting the issue.
I read it as an indictment of the printer handling replacing the damaged books, and not a negative on the part of me / Paizo.

Which is the way I was intending it.

The printer is giving you the run-around, trying to tell you what you want to hear instead of telling the truth, and it isn't right. But they'll expect you to continue doing business with them even though they've shown that they're more than willing to ignore their end of the deal. At least for as long as it takes for you to get so irate that they absolutely have to fulfill their obligations before you start pulling out the threats. Then they'll try offering you some minor concession, like giving you a $20 gift certificate off your next print order, to try and keep your business.

I just hope things get sorted out soon, because when you're just purchasing a single item, as a consumer, it's easy to switch to a different supplier. But when you're a creator who's depending on someone else to manufacture your product it's a lot harder to switch because you then have to go through the whole proofing process again, and then there's the run up to printing, and you're at the back of the production queue again, etc, etc. So being treated like this by the printer is even worse than what I got from a treadmill manufacturer.

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Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Just like when the srd says that fighters are "Lords of the battlefield...shape themselves into living weapons...capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies." It's implied that you don't get +20 BAB, eleven feats, and a kingdom to rule at first level.

Yea, because that might actually make them worth playing!

*insert rimshot*

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. Try the veal!

Mike Franke wrote:
Maybe so, but if you spend 15 years kicking puppies you are evil and are not going to spend 30 years taking care of orphans. You are going to go on to be a serial killer.

That's not true either. That's like saying that because you pulled the dog's tail a lot when you were a kid that you're going to skin it alive when you're 20. You're assuming that people can't change.

I used to have tons of fun tormenting my cat as a kid. I did it for years. But I grew up, and now I love my cat just because she's a cat and she's fluffy. Maybe I don't give her as much attention as I should, but I also don't toss her 10 feet in the air time and time again, or trap her in a cardboard box for a few hours before letting her out. Again, I grew up. I realized that kicking the cat was wrong, and so I stopped. I'm not a serial killer because I kicked the cat while I was growing up.

What about those people who are sent to prison for murder and become reformed pacifists? Or racists who realize that hey, those other people really aren't that different? I guess that's all a sham and a lie too, because no one ever does that. It just could never happen, ever.

Mike Franke wrote:

Did you read the "that sort of thing is for special NPC's and PC's etc? I mean you quoted it!

Anyway, as I said above while we were posting at the same time, I made too absolute a case. Of course alignment can be changed. But for the vast majority of NPC's it does not change unless it is in service to the story. IF you want to look at the world as a vast constantly shifting field of alignments where all NPC's alignments fluctuate daily based on their decisions then ...OK. But I don't think evil merchant #2's alignment is really neutral and he is just currently making a lot of bad decisions.

I did read it, which is why I said you admitted NPCs could change alignment.

I also never said that alignments will change on a daily basis. They're the measure of your actions as a whole. A single bad day where you treat people like crap isn't going to make you evil just as much as a single large donation to charity isn't going to make you good. It's all about your collective deeds. And since you don't have any collective deeds at birth, you're born neutral. What you do as you age determines your alignment. Which is why I made the example of the puppy-kicker running an orphanage. If you spend 15 years doing nothing but kicking puppies every day, but then spend the next 30 doing nothing but taking care of orphans you're going to end up with a good alignment by the end. But for those first 15 years, you're going to be at least slightly evil.

But that points out a problem with how alignment is handled in Pathfinder. It's regarded as something without gray areas. There needs to be a gray area between them, because not every evil act is as evil as the next, and the same is true for good acts. Kicking puppies isn't as evil as wholesale murder, for instance, but someone who kicks puppies is considered just as evil as a serial killer in Pathfinder. And that's all sorts of messed up.

Geistlinger wrote:
Quickened Ceremony (Marriage): "Do you?" "Yeah." "Do you?" "Yeah." "Fine, you're married, kiss her."

But what happens when King Richard shows up after returning from the crusades and exerts his royal rights?

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Mike Franke wrote:
Your average evil BBG is evil because he is evil and he will always be evil and that is if he is not absolutely evil because he is a race or creature that is inherently evil. Assuming of course that he is evil.
Really? Then why do almost all of them have extensive backgrounds explaining why they are how they are? Nualia from RotRL comes immediately to mind...

So does Staunton Vhane, who was originally a paladin. And isn't there a demon lord in Wrath of the Righteous who was originally a devil as well?

Mike Franke wrote:

3. I am, and I believe the thread is too, discussing the population of Golarion in general, not characters. Characters are our special flowers that we control. Thus the internal alignment struggle can be an excellent part of our roleplay experience but PC's are not normal people.

4. Although the possibility of redemption and alignment change do exist in Golarion, that sort of thing is in my opinion for special NPC's and PC's for the purpose of driving adventure and story telling. Your average evil BBG is evil because he is evil and he will always be evil and that is if he is not absolutely evil because he is a race or creature that is inherently evil. Assuming of course that he is evil.

The fact that NPCs can change alignment at all is evidence to the contrary of your "Alignments are hard-wired. Period." stance. The fact that there are rules, spells, and items, that deal specifically with alignment change, whether to force it or prevent it, makes the argument of alignment change being possible a moot one, since it's spelled out that yes, it is, and it isn't just limited to PCs.

Mike Franke wrote:

I am not sure why you are ignoring it. Alignment is not a choice. People and creatures in Pathfinder are born an alignment and some are born evil, bad, horrible. They are not born a blank slate and become an alignment based on their actions.

They are born EVIL with capital letters, they like to kick puppies and kill for fun.

That's actually a very, very simplistic view that doesn't hold with what Pathfinder actually says at all.

Alignments can, and do, change. Otherwise there wouldn't be rules about non-neutral druids losing powers, non-lawful monks losing powers, lawful barbarians losing powers, etc. because no once could ever change alignments. Those rules would be wasted space and without meaning because hey, you pick an alignment and it's set for life, right? Since being non-lawful is a requirement to even pick barbarian as a class, there's no way that you could ever become lawful, so there's no need for rules that say lawful barbarians lose their ability to rage.

Characters and NPCs aren't born into alignments, they're born true neutral and then their alignment changes as they perform various acts and deeds. Yea, that kid who kicks puppies all the time growing up is probably going to turn out evil, but if he grows out of it as an adult and goes on to open an orphanage and takes excellent care of the orphans who live there? Well, then he's probably going to swing over to the "good" side again. If he keeps up the puppy kicking while being otherwise extremely charitable? He's probably gonna sit right around neutral when he dies.

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Domestichauscat wrote:
Well in real life there are Satanists. From what I hear, they worship Satan for power and like the idea of burning forever when they die. Cause a bit of them are pyros. Also, they are encouraged to sin as much as they can, and as we know certain vices are pleasurable.

That's not entirely true. There are various forms of Satanism, just like there are various forms of Christianity. They encompass both the belief in Satan as an actual deity and the belief in him as a symbol. While self-empowerment is typically a theme, the idea of Hell or a focus on fire usually isn't.

LaVeyan Satanism is a common, if not the most common, modern Satanist religion, and is the one practiced by the organized Church of Satan. They don't actually believe in Satan as a deity. They see Satan as a figurative representation of power, individualism, and instinctual urges. To a LaVeyan Satanist, there is no heaven or hell and all gods are externalized constructs of the human mind that were created by others to place limits on an individual's potential by forcing conformity to a common standard. Instead, LaVeyan Satanism believes that since the gods are creations of humanity and of ourselves, by worshiping a god you are worshiping yourself by proxy. So they cut out the middle man and worship themselves as their own gods, believing in individual freedom, personal power, and self-indulgence. They also don't tolerate ignorance or stupidity, and through this believe that one of a person's duties is to better themselves through education.

In fact, individuality, knowledge, and self-indulgence tend to be common tenets between the various Satanistic belief systems. Though how they go about it are often different. For instance, unlike LaVeyan Satanism, Luciferianism believes in Satan as an actual deity, but he isn't exactly the Satan portrayed in the Bible. Instead, he is the Morning Star and the Lightbringer, an angel who sought to bring knowledge and enlightenment to the world and was punished for it. They see his temptation of Eve to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge as his attempt to bring knowledge to the world and to awaken the human potential which God had chosen to limit. For doing this, he was cast out of Heaven. In this way he is seen in the same light as Prometheus, the Greek Titan who defied the gods and gave the knowledge of fire and civilization to humanity, and was punished for it by being chained to a rock where his liver would be eaten and regrown for all eternity. And since history is written by the victor, who's to say that the Bible wasn't written with a massive bias and slant to make God look better than Lucifer?

Though I will say that in terms of Golarion, that sort of argument is a lot harder to make since the gods aren't nebulous beings of questionable existence. They're unquestionably real, and they seem more than willing to tell you what they actually stand for. But everyone has different desires. If Asmodeus can promise power to the person who wants it, and he actually delivers, then it would be very, very easy to follow him regardless of what may happen in death. Politicians, kings, nobles, lawyers. They're all people who could be seduced or even willingly throw themselves at Asmodeus's feet. Someone like Rovagug is a bit harder to figure out who would worship him, but maybe they're just doomsayers who want to bring about the end of the world?

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Because the various religions tend to shun different things.

For example, someone who practices body modification, especially some of the more extreme forms, and is into things like S&M would probably be shunned by all the good or neutral deities to some degree. Generally because those things are considered "distasteful" in most societies. On the other hand, that's pretty much the entire schtick of Zon-Kuthon. He's basically the god of sadomasochists.

Jaded by "normal" desires? Solve the puzzle box and let Zon-Kuthon show you what true pleasure, that which you could never have known to exist, is.

The situation with the damaged order replacement sounds like my attempt at buying a treadmill direct from the manufacturer.

"It should ship in a week."

"Oh, it's on backorder but we didn't tell you that. It'll ship next week."

See above, another 3 times.

"Oh, we took your money, but the order was never processed for some reason. To make it up for you, we'll discount $10 off your $900 treadmill. Oh, you want to cancel? Well, I don't know why you would want to do that. If you just give us one week we'll have your treadmill to you. It will take 10-30 business days for the refund to process anyway, so why don't you just wait?"

How some companies can get away with some of the poor service I've seen over the years, I'll never understand. Especially when it comes to flat-out ignoring their obligations.

Ok, so I got around to fixing things up for this campaign. Really wasn't a lot of work, but I wanted to make sure I got the numbers right.

Raymond stats:

Raymond Hessel
Male Ifrit Summoner (Master Summoner) 1
LE Medium outsider (native)
Init +10; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +1
Speed 30 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +6)
. . 10/day—summoning mastery
Ifrit Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +6)
. . 1/day—burning hands (DC 16)
Summoner (Master Summoner) Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +6):
1st (3/day)—grease (DC 16), mage armor
0 (at will)—detect magic, guidance, mage hand, message
Str 7, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 20
Base Atk +0; CMB -2; CMD 10
Feats Improved Initiative
Traits fast-talker, linked surge, Crime: Extortion
Skills Bluff +10, Diplomacy +6, Handle Animal +9, Intimidate +11, Perception +0, Spellcraft +6, Use Magic Device +9
Languages Auran, Common, Ignan, Terran
SQ eidolon link, fire insight, lesser eidolon, life link, share spells with eidolon, wildfire heart
Special Abilities
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Eidolon Link (Ex) Mental link allows communication over any distance, but share magic item slots.
Fire Insight Summon spells last 2 rounds longer with creatures with the fire subtype.
Lesser Eidolon A master summoner's class level is halved (minimum 1) for the purposes of determining his eidolon's abilities, Hit Dice, evolution pool, and so on.

The eidolon otherwise functions as normal. This ability replaces the summoner's normal eidolon
Life Link (Su) Damage that dismisses Eidolon can be taken by you. It weakens if not in 100 ft.
Linked Surge (1/day) Once per day, you may make a Strength or Constitution-based ability check or skill check using you eidolon’s ability score in place of your own. Your eidolon must be summoned and with 30 feet for you to use this trait.
Share Spells with Eidolon (Ex) Your spells ignore type restrictions for Eidolon and it can recieve your personal spells.
Summoning Mastery I (10/day) (Sp) You can summon monsters as a spell like ability, maintaining 1 even when Eidolon is summoned.
Wildfire Heart +4 racial bonus on initiative


Biped (Claws)
LE Medium outsider
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +12
AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 14 (+1 Dex, +4 natural)
hp 11 (+1)
Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +2
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +4 (1d4+3)
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 15
Feats Combat Reflexes
Skills Intimidate +1, Perception +12, Sense Motive +4, Stealth +5
Languages Common
Special Abilities
Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).

Spooky GM wrote:
@Unruly: Interesting idea; I never considered the possibility of medieval gangsters in WotW, but it's a nice twist. You would be looking at a pretty long time of just establishing a decent power base with the party before you could set up a racket, though.

Even the Cosa Nostra got their start as simple cattle and crop thieves. I'm fine with that.

I'd like everyone who plans to play a divine character of a deity who isn't Asmodeus to just give me a quick rundown of how/why exactly they plan on playing nice with his servants. At one point you will be recruited in a group whose primary goal is the service of Asmodeus, and while I'm not going to exclude people based on that, I'm interested to see how they intend to reconcile that difference.

Raymond isn't going to be a divine caster, but Mafiosi are typically Catholic in real life. I could see service to Asmodeus as similar to that. In fact, it would fit so much better with their style of doing things. Keep your word, uphold contracts, be loyal, but do everything you can to benefit yourself? Yea, I think that sort of philosophy pretty much epitomizes the stereotyped Mafia.

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