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Just curious, but does anyone else see the vortex gun as a BFG 9000?
...'cuz I do! :)
Now that you mention it, yes I do.
Unrelated to Feros' question, I have just looked at the treasure section of Fires of Creation. I have just this to say,
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I just read the description, and -- extinction wave device? Let me guess, this is something that goes under the 'never ever let people who can't resist pressing the Big Red Button touch it' heading?
And just how good is the death ray? I hope this isn't like, "Death ray, bah! It doesn't even knock 'em down!"
I just read the description, and -- extinction wave device? Let me guess, this is something that goes under the 'never ever let people who can't resist pressing the Big Red Button touch it' heading?
And just how good is the death ray? I hope this isn't like, "Death ray, bah! It doesn't even knock 'em down!"
check the PRD
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I just read the description, and -- extinction wave device? Let me guess, this is something that goes under the 'never ever let people who can't resist pressing the Big Red Button touch it' heading?
And just how good is the death ray? I hope this isn't like, "Death ray, bah! It doesn't even knock 'em down!"
Let's just say you wouldn't want to get hit by one.
Sauce, Troll -- I looked at the PRD, and yeah, they're impressive enough that I question the wisdom of a GM who allows PCs to get their hands on them. Of course for some groups that's part of the appeal.
Also, the rebirthing machine, hmm, I wonder how best to handle the effects it has on a character who gets rebirthed by one (along with the +2 to all stats)? I guess the easiest way is to just do what was done with 'PC becomes Sorshen the pure Azlanti' and have them lose two levels.
And now I wonder if the Azlanti are/were descended from the space people in setting.
Creative Director
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Sauce, Troll -- I looked at the PRD, and yeah, they're impressive enough that I question the wisdom of a GM who allows PCs to get their hands on them. Of course for some groups that's part of the appeal.
Also, the rebirthing machine, hmm, I wonder how best to handle the effects it has on a character who gets rebirthed by one (along with the +2 to all stats)? I guess the easiest way is to just do what was done with 'PC becomes Sorshen the pure Azlanti' and have them lose two levels.
And now I wonder if the Azlanti are/were descended from the space people in setting.
Nope. The Azlanti were here (and indeed had been destroyed by Earthfall) well before the ship crashed into Numeria.
As fro the rebirthing chamber... it's an artifact. It gets to break the rules, and is more powerful than the "Sorshen trap" you cite. A character who is rebirthed by one gains a +2 inherent bonus to all her stats and has her age reset to young adult. A live creature that's rebirthed by the device doesn't gain negative levels.
Nope. The Azlanti were here (and indeed had been destroyed by Earthfall) well before the ship crashed into Numeria.
Ah. Darn, I was wondering if Pathfinder was going to go with the old 'Atlanteans were the spacemen' argument I remember from some lost civilization/ancient astronaut literature.
As fro the rebirthing chamber... it's an artifact. It gets to break the rules, and is more powerful than the "Sorshen trap" you cite. A character who is rebirthed by one gains a +2 inherent bonus to all her stats and has her age reset to young adult. A live creature that's rebirthed by the device doesn't gain negative levels.
Translation, if I don't want it to be abused, then think twice and think twice again before introducing it? And/or give it some nasty side effects?
Thanks for the advice.
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On a semi-related note, the redesigned PRD looks rather nice. Now I can work on stuff at work without having to drag my Tech guide with me.
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Translation, if I don't want it to be abused, then think twice and think twice again before introducing it? And/or give it some nasty side effects?
Correct. That's kind of the standard advice for ANY artifact, of course. Although if every artifact in your game has nasty side effects... that kind of runs the risk of making artifacts, which are supposed to be the most coveted items in the game, not too attractive to players. Which sort of defeats the purpose.
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In Kingmaker I have a Major badguy who's gotten hold of three artifacts..... Boy the party is gonna hate him... (Cyclops Grave Knight antipaladin with Eye of Abadon and TWF with Ovrinbaane and Briar. How he obtained all three is hilarious.)
On topic though I gave this book a short and sweet review. I found myself pleased with all the options in the book from achetypes to rules to items. Only a few errors, so I'm happy with editing. My only real complaint is lack of Beam Sabre.
I hope we do get an "Ultimate Technology" with expanded rules for tech all throughout the ages from Stone age to space age/
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Okay PM me that story ID, I gotta know.
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The same!
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Link to the thread I made to share
Last derail!
My favorite weapon in the book is probably the monowhip. It's just way too cool.
Link to the thread I made to share
Last derail!
My favorite weapon in the book is probably the monowhip. It's just way too cool.
It's completely ridiculous if you make it keen.
Me three!
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Correct. That's kind of the standard advice for ANY artifact, of course. Although if every artifact in your game has nasty side effects... that kind of runs the risk of making artifacts, which are supposed to be the most coveted items in the game, not too attractive to players. Which sort of defeats the purpose.
Yeeeaaaaaaah... I'm a little more old school in that regard, and remember the ancient days of earlier editions where that was part and parcel of how Artifacts work. "Oh, you want something that breaks the rules of power and price? You'll have to pay for it one way or another..." Keeps them on their toes. Got tired of 3rd Ed and beyond basically making them mere "Magic items more costly than 200K".
My only real complaint is lack of Beam Sabre.
We've had that forever. It's called a "Wand of Flame Blade". You just make it out of Iron or something instead of Wood and make sure you can activate it somehow. Get the Trait that gives you UMD as a class skill and go with levels of Qinggong Monk, and you have a passable Jedi substitute.
Correct. That's kind of the standard advice for ANY artifact, of course. Although if every artifact in your game has nasty side effects... that kind of runs the risk of making artifacts, which are supposed to be the most coveted items in the game, not too attractive to players. Which sort of defeats the purpose.Yeeeaaaaaaah... I'm a little more old school in that regard, and remember the ancient days of earlier editions where that was part and parcel of how Artifacts work. "Oh, you want something that breaks the rules of power and price? You'll have to pay for it one way or another..." Keeps them on their toes. Got tired of 3rd Ed and beyond basically making them mere "Magic items more costly than 200K".
While that's a true "guideline" in Pathfinder, the vast preponderance of artifacts in this system - and all the artifacts in 3rd and 3.5 that come to mind - came with some sort of distinct danger or drawback to its use.
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Chief among which is the surprisingly large number of people willing to kill you to obtain it for themselves.
Does a fire giant wearing hot siccatite lose its cold vulnerability?
No, he would just gain cold resist 5.
Can we get an update from staff on how well this book has sold so far? I'm just curious
Can we get an update from staff on how well this book has sold so far? I'm just curiousPaizo does not disclose sales data. But they sold every book they had at GenCon with them, which is usually a good indication that the thing is smokin' hot.
Is it? I mean don't they in general sell out of all the new releases during Gencon?
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Is it? I mean don't they in general sell out of all the new releases during Gencon?Can we get an update from staff on how well this book has sold so far? I'm just curiousPaizo does not disclose sales data. But they sold every book they had at GenCon with them, which is usually a good indication that the thing is smokin' hot.
Nope. They usually (but not always) sell out of new hardcovers, but full sale of softcovers is a rare thing. Coincidentally, Fires of Creation sold out as well, and I don't remember if any AP that debuted at GenCon ever did so except for Burnt Offerings.
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Hmmm, Distant Worlds sold out its first print run, and I seem to remember someone (Sutter?) saying it had a larger-than-normal initial run. Now the Technology Guide seems to be selling at a brisk clip too.
If Iron Gods sells as briskly, maybe we'll get that Distant Worlds AP after all? At the very least, the TG might lead to an Ultimate Technology hardcover... which would in theory make it much easier for the resident Dinosaur Director to Kickstart his post-apocalyptic setting. I know it's just wishful thinking at this point, but I can dream anyway.
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Actually, selling out of hardcovers isn't normal either. This Gen Con was... quite good.
Thank you for all of the hard work that you and the rest of the Paizo crew have put into making Pathfinder awesome. For the first time since I started gaming in the 80s (Original Red Box represent!) I now have the necessary tools to play just about any game that I could ever want to without spending most what little game time I have on reinventing the wheel instead of actually gaming. The only problem I'm having right now is choosing between a Fading Suns campaign or a Space Opera Wars campaign. I'll probably end up doing both!
Thanks again!
SM
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Creative Director
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Hmmm, Distant Worlds sold out its first print run, and I seem to remember someone (Sutter?) saying it had a larger-than-normal initial run. Now the Technology Guide seems to be selling at a brisk clip too.
If Iron Gods sells as briskly, maybe we'll get that Distant Worlds AP after all? At the very least, the TG might lead to an Ultimate Technology hardcover... which would in theory make it much easier for the resident Dinosaur Director to Kickstart his post-apocalyptic setting. I know it's just wishful thinking at this point, but I can dream anyway.
For the record... running a Kickstarter is a huge deal, and I'm pretty sure I don't have the time or resources to handle that AND do my job at the same time. I'm certainly watching how Jason handles his with Great Interest...
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While that's a true "guideline" in Pathfinder, the vast preponderance of artifacts in this system - and all the artifacts in 3rd and 3.5 that come to mind - came with some sort of distinct danger or drawback to its use.
It's more than a "Guideline". Go check out some of the 3.5 ones. If it's "all the artifacts that come to mind", then you shouldn't have a problem with examples. The only ones that do have horrible drawbacks are ones imported from 2nd or previous where that was a thing (Deck of Many Things, Sphere of Annihilation, Body Parts of Vecna, etc). The others, at most, 'sting' a user of an improper class or alignment who tries to use them. That's hardly a 'distinct danger or drawback'.
There were some released later in specific campaign settings or in Dungeon/Dragon Magazine that may have had them, but almost every artifact from the main hardcover books had no serious drawback. And I can provide examples if you like.I'm not complaining or anything. Clearly my playstyle is different than what is considered 'standard'. I openly admit I pick and choose things I like from previous editions to retain and incorporate in the current system, and as far as I'm concerned, Pathfinder IS the next step of D&D.
So, naturally, I like when some of the 'artifact-level' stuff gives great power but comes at a price not measured in coin (or in vague handwavy 'people will come looking for it' non-quantifiable insinuations), and it just irritates my OCD that some things are labeled Artifacts out of an inability for the designer of it to spend the extra 10 minutes calculating the price.
Having said that, I LIKE some of them here. The Rebirthing Chamber, for instance, has that old-school feel and can do some crazy stuff. Some remind me immediately of other sci-fi settings (the Halo Weapon / Slaver Mind Bomb, also known as the "Extinction Wave Device"), even if they are simply interesting ways of codifying plot effects into a rules format. Some, like the Powered Armor, are direct shout-outs to previous fondly-remembered game settings (that one's right from either Barrier Peaks or Gamme World), while also subtly hinting at other inspirations (Voltron).
However, that doesn't mean that they need to be priceless artifacts. The first two? Absolutely. The powered armor is effectively just a stack of items combined into one, and since the price went over 200K, it got labeled an Artifact. Except that it's not, it's just a stupendously expensive item.
In any event, all of them... even the ones with drawbacks, are still 'coveted items'.
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... okay, so having a quest you must go on once per year - as defined by GM fiat, in addition to what you would otherwise do - is not a significant drawback? I guess that geas spell might as well just be called "free XP: the spell" then. The fact is that this quest is just as harsh as the GM wants it to be. Hence, the difficulty and drawback is inherently baked in and entirely in the GM's hands. If a GM feels that the drawback isn't severe enough, they're not making it severe enough.
I agree that the moaning diamond's moaning isn't a huge drawback, mechanically (unless you're ever trying to be stealthy)... but if you've ever - ever - been around a child who won't stop crying, you will not be able to say that it's not a substantial drawback. It is. It's a terrible drawback. Your eventual options are either to constantly be in a silence area ("Congratulations! You're now deaf!"), put it in a small and portable demiplane-container (if that frees you from the noise - subject to GM fiat), or to leave it behind somewhere... which is really a terrible idea, honestly. Because that's exactly how things get acquired by other people. Granted it's been toned down in PF, but in 3.5 it was really horrid.
The fact that all dragons automatically and irrevocably hate forever you is not something nearly as insignificant as you claim. You can't make friends of dragons - any dragons - ever. This means that if you're a good guy? Metallic dragons still hate you. You are enemy number one of all of dragon kind. If you don't think that's a major drawback - compared to the birthing chamber - you don't understand what that means. Orc hordes are feared because they can lay entire countries to waste if they actually band together. Dragon hordes are far, far worse, and have full spellcasting at their disposal multiple times over.
Looking at the D20SRD, most of the artifacts don't have that many problems.
It seems you didn't look very hard, and what you did look at was hopelessly viewed through a lens to exclusively cleave to one side of an argument.
Many of them require that you not only understand that they're artifacts (which is vague, at best, in-character) and that you understand how to properly use them. Given that, sure. Let's look at all of them:
1) book of infinite spells: self-limiting, and far less useful than self-crafted items of similar make; but sure, it's basically benign
2) deck of many things: as described above, solid drawbacks
3) hammer of thunderbolts: it's full power only comes if you know it's an artifact; but given that, you've got two other items needed before you can take advantage of its abilities. Still, it's a minor thing at best.
4) philosopher's stone: it's a one-use item
5) sphere of annihilation: as described above by you guys
6) staff of the magi: hope you don't over-charge it... (and good luck or very clever guesswork, knowing how many charges are left)!
7) talisman of pure good/pure evil: hope you're good/evil when you touch it...
8) talisman of the sphere: this is entirely worthless without another artifact
9) talisman of reluctant wishes: make a good CHA-check or cursed item!
10) moaning diamond: see above
11) orb of dragonkind: "The bearer of one of these Orbs earns the enmity forever of all dragonkind for profiting by the enslavement of one of their kin, even if she later loses the item." This is not as milde as them "not liking you" despite how PF has handled it, later.
12) saint's mace: well, the PRD doesn't have any setting-specific stuff, but being the mace that belongs to the actual deity of retribution makes me distinctly cautious in how I use it
13) shadowstaff: I cover this below.
14) shield of the sun: I cover this above.
In the end, the drawbacks are pretty solidly there, it's only if GMs don't apply the penalties fully or cautiously.
This can come from many things: misapplication of metagame knowledge, a desire to avoid confrontational styles of GMing, or all sorts of things. Those are valid enough. But all of those items, with the exception of the hammer of thunderbolts are either self-limiting, or have substantial drawbacks. Add that to the fact that GMs are the exclusive arbiters of whether or not artifacts end up in the games, and any complications they wish are entirely in their hands.
Maybe you don't see the "self-limiting" as a drawback. I know I do. I like stuff. Stuff that goes away is less exciting than stuff that hangs around. That's a pretty solid drawback, as a player, to me.
I will otherwise concede different styles and preferences.
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Arturius, looking at the d20pfsrd...
You become ever-more haunted with each use.
Non-dwarves take charisma damage and turn into a dwarf.
Demon lord can use his abilities through it.
Death or nightmares if you're not evil enough.
Negative levels and/or become neutral evil.
Potential CON damage, negative levels, and/or become chaotic evil.
May well accidentally free evil creatures.
This will dominate you to force you to disrupt devils' plans
Congrats, you can't stop damaging things
Might not open, constant zone of truth, and tempted to become good - the least onerous so far, though it could be very annoying. Out of literally the first ten on the list.
No real drawbacks, but alas, some of its powers are not available - not too shabby at all! Two of eleven.
Pffffffffffffft~! You totally fell for using this! TPK!
What part of 'owned by a powerful, evil, malicious witch' don't you understand?
This one's cool - you look evil, but it's cool. Three of fourteen. (Some may argue it has drawbacks like the demon armor, but as it doesn't say that it does, I'm not counting it, and only having the one drawback - instead of three - isn't too bad for your purposes, since dragons hating you aren't a big thing to you anyway.)
Evil and under compulsion or death - surely no drawback at all
You must kill people and change them into dream eaters to gain immortality - curiously, nothing says that you have any control over the now more powerful and chaotic evil dream eaters once you've mage them
This is inherently self-limiting, but sure, let's count it as four of eighteen (though really you can get a better effect for less on your own).
We already covered the moaning diamond above - I'll count it as five of nineteen for your sake.
Orbs of dragonkind - yeah, I'm going to disagree with you on this. Enmity of all dragonkind is not something to be taken lightly.
This one's cool, so let's call it six of twenty-one.
This one only has a drawback if you change it, so we're now at seven of twenty-two!
Hey look, it (probably) disappears after a year; but sure, let's call this eight of twenty-four.
Heheh. Hahah. Hehehehehehahahahahahahahahah! (It's time-travel; the problems have got to be self-evident. Just in case they are not - hahah! - I will count this as nine of twenty-five.)
We've covered this above - the quest is as hefty as the GM makes it.
This one's fine - so, about ten of twenty-eight.
You completely lose all non-evil divine powers until you atone by destroying the artifact.
This makes you kill to live longer, like the gem of dreams above, but at least it doesn't create chaotic evil things in your wake - so, eleven of thirty-one?
It's a lawful evil sentient sword made for melee-style strength-focused characters.
It's a chaotic neutral sentient sword.
This one isn't bad... if you consider being caught between a world-wide organization of adventurers and what amounts to a political-religious crusade as 'not bad', plus it holds all the possible issues of paladin/alignment debates contained within - but, sure, let's call it benign, for a total of twelve of thirty-five.
So, all told, slightly less than two-thirds of major artifacts are have substantial drawbacks. Many of those that do not require some GM fiat, and are the weaker artifacts.
I don't know, guys, that seems pretty much like "most of them" to me.
EDIT: To be clear, the reason it's all in a spoiler is that it's pretty off-topic.
Regardless, I'm fine with artifacts without mechanically baked drawbacks (in fact, I like them better). But most of them do have those exact things. I'll probably drop this line of conversation, since it's off topic, but if you'd like we could open up a new thread discussing it.
EDIT 2: Also, none of those above are looking at all of the artifacts from various adventures or APs. Those things were inevitably painful to use.
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oh my god i wish i could favorite reviews. damn it gorbacz, you made me laugh in public...loudly.
That review mostly serves to show Gorbacz's age. :)
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Check out my review of Fires of Creation. I wrote it during a quite similar level of intoxcation (0,7l bottle of Grant's whisky topped with a few porter beers).
it's stuff like this that make you one of my favorite posters, ill even dare to put you up there with mikaze.
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Check out my review of Fires of Creation. I wrote it during a quite similar level of intoxcation (0,7l bottle of Grant's whisky topped with a few porter beers).it's stuff like this that make you one of my favorite posters, ill even dare to put you up there with mikaze.
I think Mikaze is just about everyone's favorite poser.
I have yet to see him posing.
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I have yet to see him posing.
What a poser indeed. :)
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Body Parts of Vecna
god that reminds me of the story of the Head of Vecna
Awesome, I'm glad to hear how well it did. It gives me hope for a hardcover.
Nope. The Azlanti were here (and indeed had been destroyed by Earthfall) well before the ship crashed into Numeria.Sauce, Troll -- I looked at the PRD, and yeah, they're impressive enough that I question the wisdom of a GM who allows PCs to get their hands on them. Of course for some groups that's part of the appeal.
Also, the rebirthing machine, hmm, I wonder how best to handle the effects it has on a character who gets rebirthed by one (along with the +2 to all stats)? I guess the easiest way is to just do what was done with 'PC becomes Sorshen the pure Azlanti' and have them lose two levels.
And now I wonder if the Azlanti are/were descended from the space people in setting.
Where did they get all their Skymetal from, then?
Where did they get all their Skymetal from, then?Nope. The Azlanti were here (and indeed had been destroyed by Earthfall) well before the ship crashed into Numeria.Sauce, Troll -- I looked at the PRD, and yeah, they're impressive enough that I question the wisdom of a GM who allows PCs to get their hands on them. Of course for some groups that's part of the appeal.
Also, the rebirthing machine, hmm, I wonder how best to handle the effects it has on a character who gets rebirthed by one (along with the +2 to all stats)? I guess the easiest way is to just do what was done with 'PC becomes Sorshen the pure Azlanti' and have them lose two levels.
And now I wonder if the Azlanti are/were descended from the space people in setting.
Most likely asteroids or magical interplanetary travel.
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Where did they get all their Skymetal from, then?Nope. The Azlanti were here (and indeed had been destroyed by Earthfall) well before the ship crashed into Numeria.Sauce, Troll -- I looked at the PRD, and yeah, they're impressive enough that I question the wisdom of a GM who allows PCs to get their hands on them. Of course for some groups that's part of the appeal.
Also, the rebirthing machine, hmm, I wonder how best to handle the effects it has on a character who gets rebirthed by one (along with the +2 to all stats)? I guess the easiest way is to just do what was done with 'PC becomes Sorshen the pure Azlanti' and have them lose two levels.
And now I wonder if the Azlanti are/were descended from the space people in setting.
Yeah... asteroids, interplanetary travel, and planar travel.
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Actually, selling out of hardcovers isn't normal either. This Gen Con was... quite good.Thank you for all of the hard work that you and the rest of the Paizo crew have put into making Pathfinder awesome. For the first time since I started gaming in the 80s (Original Red Box represent!) I now have the necessary tools to play just about any game that I could ever want to without spending most what little game time I have on reinventing the wheel instead of actually gaming. The only problem I'm having right now is choosing between a Fading Suns campaign or a Space Opera Wars campaign. I'll probably end up doing both!
Thanks again!
SM
I need a couple more things, but we are certainly getting close. The whole golarion kitchen sink thing is kind of nice in that respect. I just want the stats for the spaceships to use within the vehicle combat rules, and rules for navies in kingdom building/mass combat.
Whew! Just wen through this whole thread, and I think I addressed the errata questions; I'm keeping them in a file for eventual use if we reprint as well. Let me know if there's more and I'll answer them as well!
Even if you don't reprint the Technology Guide (traditionally most Campaign Setting Guides don't get reprinted) maybe you can see about getting the Web Team to enable an FAQ tab on this book where people can quickly reference your corrections?