Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.Oh yeah, this is demon central. Each volume features stats for a demon lord and a brand new demon in the bestiary.
This AP is super demon overload!
Edit: I see folks have already covered that. Always late it seems.
*sigh* Hope my GM hurries up and digests this so we can start our campaign. :) My DMC inspired greatsword wielding tiefling wants to slay demons.
I have an indulgent question, if y'all may...
Any opinions on the sinseeker? I was in love with that critter and was frightened how the art might turn out, but working with Andrew and his artist we got an illustration I adore (creepy and cute is a hard thing to order).
He pretty much nailed it then... my gut reaction was that it's so ugly it's actually kinda cute. He's the butterface familiar!
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*sigh* Hope my GM hurries up and digests this so we can start our campaign. :) My DMC inspired greatsword wielding tiefling wants to slay demons.Boy I'd sure like to hear some cool things about demons. I wonder if there are any demons in this ap.Oh yeah, this is demon central. Each volume features stats for a demon lord and a brand new demon in the bestiary.
This AP is super demon overload!
Edit: I see folks have already covered that. Always late it seems.
Slay on!
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He pretty much nailed it then... my gut reaction was that it's so ugly it's actually kinda cute. He's the butterface familiar!I have an indulgent question, if y'all may...
Any opinions on the sinseeker? I was in love with that critter and was frightened how the art might turn out, but working with Andrew and his artist we got an illustration I adore (creepy and cute is a hard thing to order).
Nice!
I have an indulgent question, if y'all may...
Any opinions on the sinseeker? I was in love with that critter and was frightened how the art might turn out, but working with Andrew and his artist we got an illustration I adore (creepy and cute is a hard thing to order).
I can't wait to read this!! D:
I already mentioned the mongrelman and tiefling illustrations which were boss, but I also love the Ulkreth demon, especially the illustration of it attacking the city at the start of the Bestiary chapter.
I can't quite tell who drew it, though; I see a B as one of the initials, but there are 4 illustrators with a 'B' last name. Anyone recognize the signature?
I think that's Helge Balzer's signature.
But there's about 2% of all things that are pretty much black-and-white. The earth is round. Water is wet. And people are either accepting or not. Period. There aren't varying degrees of acceptance. Those who claim to be accepting, except for people who don't fit into their band of acceptance, aren't actually accepting, now are they? To be accepting on an issue, you sort of have to go all in. I'll say it again, people are people. There shouldn't be degrees.
Sorry to intrude on this conversation, and with the hellfire being thrown around here, I step into this without intent to make anyone feel bad.
However, I completely disagree with this point. To state it simply and hopefully without anyone reading malice into the point (though you may if you wish, as I'll stand by it anyway): It is entirely possible to be accepting of an individual, but not accepting of certain choices they make. You can love a person without loving certain lifestyle choices they make. Stated another way yet in the same fashion, you can be accepting of the individual yet find certain behaviors unacceptable.
I would also like to say that I'm only part of the way into Part 3 of this book, but have found it very enjoyable for an adventure and am excited to see where it goes. However, as much as I appreciate this adventure, there are choices that were made that I didn't like, such as
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
I think that's Helge Balzer's signature.
Ah, yes. I see the stylistic similarities there, too. Thanks for the ID and the link!
Fortunately, we're only halfway through Carrion Crown, so (hopefully) WotR will be complete by the time we're ready to play. I hate diving into an AP until all the books are out, because I invariably make changes later on that need to be foreshadowed early.
In the meantime, I just enjoy digesting each AP module as it comes out and thinking..."Ooooh...I can change that bit around!" :)
Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.
That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.
And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.
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I'm gearing up to GM this AP once our Rise of the Runelords campaign wraps up in a few weeks, and this volume has me very excited to see what the rest of the path brings. Originally I wasn't planning on running it -- while I found the concept extremely exciting, the high-level play coupled with mythic was turning me off of it (I much prefer running lower-level games).
After reading this though, I don't think I've ever been quite so excited about the direction an adventure path is taking. The opening is great, and I even love those first few encounters against vermin -- I love the contrast of that, after the characters having just witnessed the scene in the city above.
Of special note are the NPCs. The four major NPCs are fully fleshed out with interesting personalities and rich stories, and reading about how Anevia and Irabeth met and fell for each other made me tear up a little bit.
Of course, this leads to the "controversy" that's engulfed this forum about Anevia. I'll put it in spoiler tags so that those who aren't interested in this ongoing conversation can just ignore it.
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Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.
And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.
That's because those traits are seen as extraordinairy. Paizo is trying to paint a world where such things are not extraordinairy.
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Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.
And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.
Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)
If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.
Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.
And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.
Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)
If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.
And, again, somebody is missing the point.
You want a real world analogy? Okay, fair enough. I'm crippled. I have spina bifida. I was basically born with a broken spine, and I'm paralyzed from right below the knee down. I wear leg braces. Is it possible I'll fall in love with a blind half Chinese/half black woman and wind up with a child who is born with Achondroplasia? Absolutely it's possible. But I doubt it will happen.
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I did too, and I'm getting a little tired of people who aren't, fussing over two NPCs, with the explicit agenda of trying to back Paizo off of including LGBT characters in their adventures.How can that blonde "super models" wish for mindless World Peace when even on something so small as an online forum the people can't find peace together about something so small.
I thought this AP was about Demons, not about rights and LGBT's btw...
Not everyone is fussing over including LGBT characters - some of us are fussing over how these two characters' backgrounds are pretty poorly written, which comes off as forced, even if unintentionally so. They include so many uncommon traits it strains suspension of disbelief.
It's a transgendered woman. AND she's gay. AND her wife is a half-orc paladin. AND the paladin's parents are together out of love, not violence - which, Paizo has told us in Orcs of Golarion, never happens.
Out of hundreds (if not thousands...) of NPCs that appeared in APs (I'm including very minor NPCs in this count - like, those three nameless thugs the PCs take out in encounter area B7, etc.), the ONLY one that has both an unusual sexuality and gender and who loves a halfbreed orc/human is the one in this adventure. Yes, indeed, such characters are exceedingly rare. That is well represented in the numbers here. Also, there ARE gay, transgendered women in our world. The "wife is a half orc paladin" thing really doesn't have to do with the rest. It's not even that odd - half orcs are not in any way inherently evil and so can become paladins just like any humans.
I just have a feeling you and the others who share your opinion would never have had a problem if the NPC was different in a way that didn't have to do with her sexuality - for example, if instead of being a gay transgender, the NPC was a straight male with a REALLY weird class combination and maybe a template or something. Like a alchemist 1/summoner 2 who is an aasimar half-dragon. unusual characters are not unheard of in APs, but this one creates more resistance because her uniqueness is her sexuality.
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Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.
And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.
Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)
If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.
And, again, somebody is missing the point.
You want a real world analogy? Okay, fair enough. I'm crippled. I have spina bifida. I was basically born with a broken spine, and I'm paralyzed from right below the knee down. I wear leg braces. Is it possible I'll fall in love with a blind half Chinese/half black woman and wind up with a child who is born with Achondroplasia? Absolutely it's possible. But I doubt it will happen.
Yeah, what next, black president of the U.S. who was born on Hawaii to parents of Kenyan origin and his second name is Hussein? Preposterous idea...
I did too, and I'm getting a little tired of people who aren't, fussing over two NPCs, with the explicit agenda of trying to back Paizo off of including LGBT characters in their adventures.How can that blonde "super models" wish for mindless World Peace when even on something so small as an online forum the people can't find peace together about something so small.
I thought this AP was about Demons, not about rights and LGBT's btw...
Not everyone is fussing over including LGBT characters - some of us are fussing over how these two characters' backgrounds are pretty poorly written, which comes off as forced, even if unintentionally so. They include so many uncommon traits it strains suspension of disbelief.
It's a transgendered woman. AND she's gay. AND her wife is a half-orc paladin. AND the paladin's parents are together out of love, not violence - which, Paizo has told us in Orcs of Golarion, never happens.
Out of hundreds (if not thousands...) of NPCs that appeared in APs (I'm including very minor NPCs in this count - like, those three nameless thugs the PCs take out in encounter area B7, etc.), the ONLY one that has both an unusual sexuality and gender and who loves a halfbreed orc/human is the one in this adventure. Yes, indeed, such characters are exceedingly rare. That is well represented in the numbers here. Also, there ARE gay, transgendered women in our world. The "wife is a half orc paladin" thing really doesn't have to do with the rest. It's not even that odd - half orcs are not in any way inherently evil and so can become paladins just like any humans.
I just have a feeling you and the others who share your opinion would never have had a problem if the NPC was different in a way that didn't have to do with her sexuality - for example, if instead of being a gay transgender, the NPC was a straight male with a REALLY weird class combination and maybe a template or something. Like a...
Actually, no. I'd have a problem with a half dragon aasimar, because, again, that's such a contrived, rare combination it feels just as forced.
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Also if you ever meet a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic and breaking your sense of disbelief.
Its not that, it's than & all of the other stuff, too that makes her a very Mary Sueish character, that's just too much. Said real world lesbian wife would also be a special forces military chaplain from a perfect family, that was also able to completely overcome all of her races penalties and weaknesses (with the exception of the actual non-existant one in Golarion, Half-Orcs are NOT socially outcast except in her case), and honestly I can't think of a modern real world equivalent without being a bit insensitive towards someone. Who is also married during a campaign to a fairly prestigious military ranger type.
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Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.
And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.
Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)
If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.
And, again, somebody is missing the point.
You want a real world analogy? Okay, fair enough. I'm crippled. I have spina bifida. I was basically born with a broken spine, and I'm paralyzed from right below the knee down. I wear leg braces. Is it possible I'll fall in love with a blind half Chinese/half black woman and wind up with a child who is born with Achondroplasia? Absolutely it's possible. But I doubt it will happen.
Its a fantasy story/world/adventure. You fight HUGE dragons with scars they got from fighting with demon Lords with impossible to pronounce names, you fight Titan Lords, Gods, Robots with LaZors, (just to keep that talking bag happy and satisfied ;-) ) you fight armies of lesbian Amazons, vermin the size of cars and houses and all kinds of strange creatures and persons.
What is so strange about this transgender character in a fantasy setting and her (for many people maybe, not for me) strange/bizar story and lifemate?
In reallife I know about a girl (now a He) who's an extreme Christian person, she married a lesbian girl (when she was still a girl) and they got a baby together (being born from her egg) then she desided she didn't want to be a girl anymore and she became a guy, now she/he's actually dating other guys because she/he became bored of girls.
The world is strange my friend, and I love it!
Yeah, what next, black president of the U.S. who was born on Hawaii to parents of Kenyan origin and his second name is Hussein? Preposterous idea...Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.
And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.
Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)
If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.
And, again, somebody is missing the point.
You want a real world analogy? Okay, fair enough. I'm crippled. I have spina bifida. I was basically born with a broken spine, and I'm paralyzed from right below the knee down. I wear leg braces. Is it possible I'll fall in love with a blind half Chinese/half black woman and wind up with a child who is born with Achondroplasia? Absolutely it's possible. But I doubt it will happen.
Yes, absolutely. Imagine that, an American president who was born in the U.S., which is a legal requirement, and is black because his parents are from Kenya, an African country, where the vast majority of people, are, in fact, black. What an unbelievable combination of events.
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...I did too, and I'm getting a little tired of people who aren't, fussing over two NPCs, with the explicit agenda of trying to back Paizo off of including LGBT characters in their adventures.How can that blonde "super models" wish for mindless World Peace when even on something so small as an online forum the people can't find peace together about something so small.
I thought this AP was about Demons, not about rights and LGBT's btw...
Not everyone is fussing over including LGBT characters - some of us are fussing over how these two characters' backgrounds are pretty poorly written, which comes off as forced, even if unintentionally so. They include so many uncommon traits it strains suspension of disbelief.
It's a transgendered woman. AND she's gay. AND her wife is a half-orc paladin. AND the paladin's parents are together out of love, not violence - which, Paizo has told us in Orcs of Golarion, never happens.
Out of hundreds (if not thousands...) of NPCs that appeared in APs (I'm including very minor NPCs in this count - like, those three nameless thugs the PCs take out in encounter area B7, etc.), the ONLY one that has both an unusual sexuality and gender and who loves a halfbreed orc/human is the one in this adventure. Yes, indeed, such characters are exceedingly rare. That is well represented in the numbers here. Also, there ARE gay, transgendered women in our world. The "wife is a half orc paladin" thing really doesn't have to do with the rest. It's not even that odd - half orcs are not in any way inherently evil and so can become paladins just like any humans.
I just have a feeling you and the others who share your opinion would never have had a problem if the NPC was different in a way that didn't have to do with her sexuality - for example, if instead of being a gay transgender, the NPC was a straight male with a REALLY weird class combination and maybe a template
Except a transgender lesbian is not a "forced combination," and I'm really bloody tired of people thinking that we are. The only reason it seems "forced" is because people assume INCORRECTLY that being transgender means you're "gayer than gay." NO. Sexual orientation and gender identity are DIFFERENT THINGS ENTIRELY. In fact, it's MORE likely, not less, that a trans person will be attracted to a member of their identified gender than not (per Dr. Walter Bockting when he was at the University of Minnesota, 2/3 of both transgender women and men are gay or bisexual - about 37% of transgender women are lesbians and
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Yes, absolutely. Imagine that, an American president who was born in the U.S., which is a legal requirement, and is black because his parents are from Kenya, an African country, where the vast majority of people, are, in fact, black. What an unbelievable combination of events.Yeah, what next, black president of the U.S. who was born on Hawaii to parents of Kenyan origin and his second name is Hussein? Preposterous idea...Also if you've never met a transgendered person of a minority race and her lesbian wife then you should explain to them how they are unrealistic an breaking their disbelief.That's just it. I haven't. I'm sure they exist. But the odds of finding a couple exactly like that are so small I'd have to be mind numbingly lucky to meet them.
And in fiction, when you come across characters like that, with that many specific traits, all wrapped up in a single couple, it feels forced and contrived.
Dear Darwyn, did you ever meet a Heterosexual Paladin or a Rock Troll? (people on drugs that think they are such creatures/heroes and people on halloween don't count of course)
If you ever did, please give me the exact location. Thank you.
And, again, somebody is missing the point.
You want a real world analogy? Okay, fair enough. I'm crippled. I have spina bifida. I was basically born with a broken spine, and I'm paralyzed from right below the knee down. I wear leg braces. Is it possible I'll fall in love with a blind half Chinese/half black woman and wind up with a child who is born with Achondroplasia? Absolutely it's possible. But I doubt it will happen.
Oh, I see I hit a nerve.
No one is saying "take out gay or transsexual characters" or "do not include lesbian or bisexual characters" or any combination.
I really don't know how many times this needs to be said, before it sinks in.
Respectful discussion of opposing opinions seem in short supply on this thread.
Paizo also told us that there are Paladins of Asmodeus. Sometimes, ideas of the setting change for the better. :P
I agree, especially like the angle of the half-orc being born of a loving relationship, instead of a violent act. I believe that is change that is for the better in the present state of Golarion.
:spoiler:
I respect your opinion and can see the effective contrast of the loving couple in a world of hate. I just have a problem with the intentional insertion of the social commentary (by Paizo's admission, not my assumption) and not the organic development of the backstory. It feels false to me.
:snip:
I also really respect your thought out responses. Some of your comments really help expand the debate for me and I appreciate it. I agree more inclusion is not a bad idea, but a character (even a male hetro with the class template you describe) was created with the purpose of pushing an opinion (again Paizo's admission), then there is a pretty good chance I would feel like it was forced.